Mr. Speaker, unlike my colleague who just spoke, I have little objection to this motion. For the most part, it is an excellent motion.
I point out that it says that this House urges the government to respect provincial jurisdiction in health care management. I heartily endorse that. That is precisely what is in the Constitution. I am sure that given the right conditions, all the provinces would certainly endeavour to manage health care in a proper fashion.
On increased transfers to the provinces for health care, I think I can speak for just about every member on this side that we would want to see more money go toward the health of Canadians. I am hoping in the budget that is coming out very shortly that the government in its wisdom will find more money for health care in the provinces. We must remember it is a provincial jurisdiction.
Finally, regarding using budget surpluses to encroach upon the health field, quite honestly I do not really know what that means. I certainly would not want to see the federal government encroach in any improper way on provincial jurisdiction.
The only word I have difficulty with in the motion is the word unconditionally. The motion suggests that the federal government should transfer billions and billions of dollars to the provinces for unconditional spending in health care. I have difficulty with that.
Currently the total cash and tax point transfer for health and social spending from the federal government to the provinces is about $26 billion. The difficulty is that any time any government, person or organization gives money to another organization to provide services there has to be some level of transparency and accountability. We have to know we are getting a return on the money we put out to an organization, a province or whatever.
I will give an example in my own province. I hope the Bloc members are listening. I cannot speak for the experience in Quebec because I do not live in Quebec; but I do live in Ontario and can say that there is a general feeling in Ontario that the transfer money coming from the federal government for social spending will not get to where it ought to be.
There are indications of this suspicion. A person came to my riding and described a billboard in Mexico which read “Invest in Ontario—Low Personal Income Taxes”. I do not know for certain but it leads to the suspicion that perhaps the Government of Ontario is using some of the money that is supposed to go to health care and other social fields for something else, which enables it to cut personal income taxes as indeed it has done. That is only anecdotal, but I have actual evidence that this general opinion is held by people in Ontario.
Every fall at fairs in my riding I hold opinion polls. I have four jars on a table. People are given four coloured beans and asked to pretend they are the Minister of Finance and have a $4 billion surplus. Each jar is separately labelled. One is labelled “Reduce the Debt”; the second is “Increase Social Spending”, the third is “Cut Taxes” and the last one is “Reduce the GST”, because I am still very opposed to the GST.
Just in passing, the results among 494 players at the Rockton Fair in my riding last October was 36% for reducing the debt, 30% for increasing social spending, 23% for tax cuts and 11% for reducing the GST.
Members will notice that the figure for increasing social spending is only 30% which seems to be very low, but I have to explain the context in which the question was put to the people who participated in the poll. I should also say that fall fair, one of the biggest in the country, attracts people from all over the province, from Toronto and the Hamilton area; it is a very large catchment area.
If I gave the four beans to persons who were to participate in the poll and said social spending, they would advance the bean toward social spending. However, if I said to them “Oh, just one moment. Remember that the federal government does not control social spending. If you put that bean into the jar for social spending, health and all the rest of it, remember that it is the Government of Ontario that will actually decide how that billion dollars will be used”, people would dart back as if they had touched something hot and would put the bean in another jar.
I watched the poll all the way through. I stayed there for the three days that it was carried out. Roughly half the people who would have put money into social spending changed their minds when they realized that social spending was an area entirely under provincial jurisdiction.
That raises the whole matter of what is wrong. If the public gives money to any organization and is uncertain about whether the organization will actually spend the money where it is supposed to, we have a problem. It is a problem that is easily fixed. The way to fix it is to require an agreement of the provincial government in which it assures the federal government that it will spend the money it receives from Ottawa on health care and agrees to demonstrate that it is spending the money in that way. In other words, there has to be some form of accountability. There has to be some form of transparency.
In the social union talks which concluded today I notice that one item agreed upon by the provinces—and I believe it also applies in the health care field—was the consent to a third party audit of money being received from the federal government and used by the provinces for health care. In other words, the actual spending on health care by a province would be audited. I will say, for example, Alberta keeps very careful track of how its health care dollar is spent. Why should all the provinces not do precisely that?
When we talk about unconditional we talk about no transparency and no accountability. However if we all agree that the money coming from the federal government is to be used on health, there should be no barrier by any province to disclosing in detail how the money is spent.
Quebec has one of the best freedom of information laws among the provinces. I hope the federal government would revise its own access to information law so that the provinces can look into the financial affairs of the federal government in the same way as we would hope the people of Canada and the people of Quebec can look into how money is spent by the province of Quebec on health care.
I do not see much problem with the motion. If I thought there was even a distant chance of getting unanimous consent I would move an amendment suggesting that we drop the word unconditional. If that were agreeable to the opposition I am sure we on this side would support the motion whole-heartedly.
I do not feel I should give my party whip a heart attack by moving a motion at this time so I will pass and ask the Bloc Quebecois to seriously consider amending the motion by taking out the word unconditional and I am sure it will get overwhelming support on this side for its motion.