Debates of March 4th, 1999

Supply

[Alex Shepherd, Liberal, Durham, ON]

Madam Speaker, I listened with great interest as the member spoke on this issue. This motion talks about discrimination and it is founded on the concept of discrimination when in fact no discrimination exists.

The member gave the example of a $50,000 single income family and then compared that to two people making $25,000 each. The reality is a married couple with $50,000 and only one earner would always have the potential to send the one at home out to work. So it is not $50,000 to $50,000, it is perhaps $75,000 to $50,000 which is the whole premise of his argument. It is idiotic and the motion is idiotic.

I did the same thing. My wife stayed home during a certain period of my career. That was a personal choice we made. We did not come to the Government of Canada and ask if it could subsidize us somehow. They are really saying that working men or women are allowed to claim child tax credits and are also allowed caregiver credits, and they think this is improper.

If the discrimination argument were reversed they would be saying we should not give those people who are working the right to claim day care expenses of up to $7,000 per child. This leads into the last part of his argument that 70% of women would gladly go back home. I do not buy that. The argument is that women do not choose to go to work but that they are forced and driven out of their homes by the taxation system to go to work. There are many women, and I know thousands, and many in my family, who choose to work. They want to work and they want to be part of the workforce. They want to contribute to society in that way. We all contribute in our own way. Some contribute by staying at home, others contribute by interfacing in the workforce.

Is the member not really asking if we can get all these women to go back into the kitchen? He is not talking about discrimination. He is talking about a way of life he would like to live that existed a hundred years ago. That is where he wants us to go. He is a revisionist. I would like the member to give an answer to that.

[Reed Elley, Reform, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his comments but I do not think he is living in the real world. There are all kinds of families in this country that do want to see fairness in the tax system for the very reason we are sharing today.

A recent issue of Maclean's magazine, which he may or may not have read but should, indicates a sociological trend in our country where many women who have been in the workforce for a number of years are now coming to the realization that whether they want to be out there or whether they were forced to because of the economy, it is simply more fulfilling for them in many cases to stay at home with their young children, and it is a lot better for their children.

Therefore in order to make that choice of going from the workforce back to the home they are now faced with a discriminatory tax system that will penalize them for going back into the home. They have made the choice, and no one has forced them, to go back into the home and now this taxation system penalizes them.

The member across the way is not in touch with the reality of today. Times change, things change and what was good between 1960 and 1970 may not be good today. That is what we are asking these members to open their minds to and take a look at.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Secretary of State (Multiculturalism)(Status of Women)]

Madam Speaker, I am delighted for many reasons to respond to the motion put forward by the hon. member for Calgary Southeast.

It is really nice to know that the opposition party suddenly cares about women. This is a party that talked about women as a special interest group for so very long that I am delighted to hear that it has suddenly recognized that women exist and have complex issues to face in our society.

What is intriguing is that, as usual, the party takes what is an extremely complex issue and puts it into a very simplistic way. There is a danger in that because when we take complex issues and deal with them in a simplistic manner we quite often make worse the disparities that have occurred in a society as a result of those complex issues. We tend to bring the wrong measures to correcting things and make them far worse.

We have to look at the complexity of the issue. That is why I am glad to speak to this today. I would like to inform the members across the way about the complexity of the issue.

The issue is about valuing unpaid work done in our society. When hon. members talk about single income families, what they need to understand very clearly is that single income earning families come in many shapes and sizes. They are not only the single income family in which one parent stays at home and looks after the children and one parent goes to work.

There are single income families that have no choice about going to work. I would like to inform hon. members that these are called single parents. They have no choice about going to work. They go to work because there is no one else to do so. They cannot afford to stay at home. Eighty per cent of these families tend to be made up of women and about 60% of them tend to be in very low income jobs.

These single income families are the ones that are to benefit most by what this government has done to deal with the issue of single income families, i.e. the national child benefit. These single income families earning $20,000 a year will be able to get $1,800 for their first child and $1,500 for the second child. That is $3,300 a year, which I think is a fairly good way of assisting people in supporting their children.

This is not only about families and the complexity of the single income family. It is also about the issue of ensuring that children are taken care of. Whether a parent is forced to work because he or she is a single parent or whether a parent makes the choice to work in the paid workforce, these are the complexities of the issues.

I want to make sure members across the way understand the complexity of the issue before they try to apply the usual simplistic band-aid solution that they do to everything they discuss.

The issue therefore is how do we value the unpaid work that is done in our society mostly by women.

For members who do not know what the government has been doing about this because they have never cared about women and consider them to be a special interest group, this government has led the world, literally, in valuing unpaid work. We were the first country to put questions in the 1996 census about unpaid work, the amount of unpaid work in families looking after children, seniors and those who are ill.

The second thing we have done is a great deal of analysis with communities living in the real world. There is a group that has being doing a lot of work on unpaid work in partnership with the government. It is called Mothers are Women. It tends to want to look at the issue of unpaid work, which the people across the way should talk about. Unpaid work is not only done by women. There are some men who still do some of the unpaid work and stay at home and look after their children. I hope those gentlemen across the way would be pleased one day to stay at home and look after their children. I wonder if this would happen.

What is the government doing for that group? Right now if one chooses to drop out of the workforce to look after one's children there is something called the Canada pension plan. I bring that to members' attention. It is the only insurance that allows for a child rearing drop out. It allows for the person to get out of the workforce, stay at home and look after their children. They do not lose the benefits that accrue to give them a pensionable income at the end of their lives. This is an extremely progressive form of assistance.

The other one is when people drop out of the workforce to look after children they can have up to five years away from the workforce. Then they can go back and be retrained to get back into the workforce if they so choose.

This is all about choice. This is all about ensuring that Canadian families, the complexity of them, the multiplicity of them, have the choice for any parent to stay at home if they choose. We also have something called parental leave that addresses that issue. Either parent can take parental leave to look after their children.

We have the Canada pension plan that gives them the ability to stay at home and look after their children. Employment insurance gives up to five years of leave. We also have the national child benefit that values single, low income earner parents in the workforce to get up to $3,300 for two children. Those are some things the government is doing.

The issue is how do we talk about the income tax system which the hon. members have been talking about. Let us look at what happens when we have a two parent, one income family with two children making about $60,000 and a two parent, dual income family making about $60,000. Hon. members across the way are absolutely right. If all we do is look at how the income tax system treats these parents, the single income, dual parent family does a lot worse than the dual income, dual parent family.

We are back to choice. There are some families that cannot choose to have both parents stay at home because they need to work to bring up their children and do some of the things they want to do to give their children a better chance in life. In those families, other than the income tax, when we factor in payroll deductions, the cost of quality child care for those children, the dual income family is way behind the single income family by about $3,500 to $3,800. This is a complex issue. If we did the simplistic response hon. members across the way would have us do we would now have made that dual income family worse off than it is today.

The issue is complex. We need to look at the issue in its fullness so that we can talk about the complexity of the issue. The point is that the government has been looking at the issue in many ways.

In one of the first chances we had we looked at how we valued the unpaid work that persons do in society. That was when the Minister of Finance, in his budget of 1998, gave a $400 tax credit to persons who looked after the seniors and the disabled in their families. That was a first step.

We are still looking at the issue because it is complex. We want to make sure when start valuing the unpaid work done by whomever that it is done in such a way that we do not make worse the situation of people who are suffering disparities right now.

I want to inform hon. members across the way about the issue in all its complexity and let them know what we have been doing so far on this issue and to make them understand that the single income family comes in many shapes and sizes. It is not only about one person staying at home while one person goes to work.

We want to talk about the new policy measures we can take as a government to encourage the connection between non-paid and paid work. Forty-five per cent of women today are in the paid workforce. We know that these same people have to go into the communities, do their paid work and come home and do the unpaid work as well. These are the kinds of things we want to look at. How do we value the unpaid work? We are talking about choices.

The statistics prove the incontrovertible evidence of one of the great achievements of the century now drawing to a close. Women know more now about freedom, flexibility and choice. They can decide to pursue a career in the paid workforce or to dedicate themselves to raising their children or to volunteer within the community. That is another area of unpaid work that is being done. In fact, some women in Canada do not just one but all these things.

Let me make very clear that the government recognizes the valuable work being done by women and men in the home. In today's debate I hope that both sides of the House will send a strong signal across Canada to all women that we respect and support the decisions they make, whether they choose to go into the paid workforce or whether they choose to stay at home. It is about respecting choices, not about forcing people to do one thing or the other.

The Government of Canada is measuring and valuing unpaid work. As we create public policy our role as government is to ensure that government is a force for good, that government makes good public policy, not just policy because we want to throw a band-aid at the issue or not simplistic policy as the hon. members across the way would have us make. We want to make good public policy that will eventually ensure that as time goes on, and very soon within the next century, men and women will be able to make the choices they want about going into the workforce or not.

The reality remains that we do not have the resources to do everything we can to provide Canadians with the kinds of initiatives which would help families to ease their burdens whether they are engaged in paid or unpaid work. The government knows that this is a challenge and that more has to be done.

We are committed to doing it as resources permit. We are not committed to doing what hon. members across the way would have us do. They would have us increase the disparity which now exists within families that go into the workforce and between dual income earning families and single income earning families in spite of their complexities.

Let us look at the real cost of providing for one's family. Have hon. members taken into consideration how much money a dual income earning family or a lone parent earning family has at the end of the week for day care needs? When other factors such as that are taken into consideration, dual income earning families as we know have very much less after tax disposable income than single income earning families with two parents. I want to make a distinction between single income earning families with two parents and single income earning families with only one parent, the worker in the paid workforce and the unpaid worker, at the same time.

If we treated the single income earning two parent families equally, it would not achieve equity. I repeat that we can treat people equally and not achieve equity because it is a very difficult idea for hon. members across the way to get their heads around. It is very complex.

There is a difference between treating people equally and achieving equity. The government is committed to equity. In spite of the different barriers that people face, we are committed to achieving equity regardless of whether barriers exist because it is a single income earning one parent family, because it is a dual income earning two parent family or a single income earning two parent family, or whether they are disabled or their race, culture or language are problems in the workplace. We are talking about equity. That is something I want that group to understand. One size does not fit all.

Perhaps the hon. member's solution would be to eliminate paid child care as a cost of employment in the tax system. Are hon. members across the way talking about eliminating paid child care as a tax deduction? That would surely equalize things. It would create equality as they see it. It would, however, increase the disparity to no end between parents who must go out into the workforce, single income earning or not.

That would be another way to apply the illusion of equality in the system. It is all about illusion; it is all about smoke and mirrors across the way. It is all about pretending to care. It is all about talking about complex issues in a very simplistic manner that will make it worse for families with children.

The Canada pension plan recognizes non-financial contributions to families, as do the child rearing dropout benefits, the maternity and parental benefits, and the divorce law. I suppose hon. members did not even factor them in. They were just looking at one small component of transfers and how families have net incomes. It is not just the income tax system that deals with the income of families. It has to do with benefits, with pension plans and with transfers to individuals. It is very complex.

The divorce laws should be brought into this debate. I want to talk about when a family breaks up and how the children are cared for in the family. In that family there may be still be only one income earning parent who is no longer living in the home. How does that parent ensure there is income in the home for the children. The divorce law looks at that and divides the pensions equally so that the spouses who do not go out to work and look after the children have something in the end when they retire.

It is complex. It has to work in the progression of the life cycles of Canadians. We cannot simplistically look at one spot in the life cycle of Canadians. Any policy affecting unpaid work must be guided by the principles of equity and fairness. It must recognize the different situations of women and men who may be full time homemakers and women and men who work for pay and at the same time provide care to dependants.

I reiterate that in spite of what we hear today from opposition members, Canada is a recognized leader in how we measure and how we value unpaid work. Everyone talks about how Scandinavia has been doing very well, and it has. The Scandinavian countries have done a great deal to look at the issue, but they are not world leaders in looking at the issue of valuing unpaid work. We are. They are getting their information and analytical stuff from us so that they can start looking at how to make good public policy.

Our efforts are ground breaking. They are varied and they will continue. Hon. members across the way may scoff, but they scoff because they are ignorant of the issue. Because they believe women are a special interest group they have never bothered to look at the issue, never even bothered to consider it or analyse it in the great policy analysis they do. Women do not figure in their policy analyses. Let us not forget they do not know so they can scoff: ignorance is bliss and 'tis folly to be wise. I can never accuse hon. members opposite of being too wise.

This is the first time in Canada that we have been looking with the provinces at economic gender indicators. We measured the time spent doing unpaid work whether or not one was in the paid workforce. It was the time spent and the value received. The provinces worked together very closely in that regard. Canada hosted an international symposium on the issue last year. We attended and conducted workshops.

I do not think hon. members opposite have anything new to teach the government. In fact they might learn from us. I would be pleased to give hon. members a briefing any time they wish.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am one of the hon. gentlemen across the way. I hardly know what to say about such a shameful diatribe from the secretary of state.

I would like to say something in defence of my brother who is at home right now looking after an infant and a toddler while his wife works as an occupational therapist. I noticed the minister has a stereotype that it is only women who choose the option of household arrangements to look after their children. I remind her that is not the case. There are families that make choices for their children and for themselves in a variety of ways.

I was a single income parent after the death of my husband. Somehow for the last speaker to suggest that anyone who talks about single income families as being exclusive of single parent families certainly does not respect the life experience I have had.

I would like to ask the secretary of state a question. She talked about parents who choose to stay at home as though somehow they were opting out of life by spending a period of time giving care, guidance and training to their children, as my brother is doing. In the same breath she said that we should not force people to do one thing or another.

If low income families with one or two parents pay $3,000 or $4,000 more in tax because of child care choice a or save $3,000 or $4,000 because of child care choice b , how is that supporting and allowing proper choices and equality of choices in the country?

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I sometimes think I speak in a vacuum and that it must echo across the way very hollowly. What is interesting is that I reminded hon. members opposite that some men stay at home, look after their families and do the unpaid work. I clearly said that. Maybe the hon. member was asleep at the time.

If the hon. member understands so well that some stay at home parents or some single income parents happen also to be single parent families, she should explain that to her members because they have been mixing up the words single income family and stay at home mom in their speeches all morning. As far as those members are concerned, those words can be substituted for each other. Maybe the hon. member might want to tell members opposite the truths of life.

I also think the hon. member talked about making judgments. It is the opposition members who make judgments. I think families should be able to make choices, whatever their choices.

Staying at home and looking after the family is a valid choice. It is a good one to make. That is why this government has been doing the groundbreaking international work on unpaid work in this country. We do understand there is a lot of unpaid work done by men and women. The reality is that the majority of it is done by women, but men do it too. We are interested in doing the right thing.

The hon. member talks about paying $4,000 for child care versus not paying $4,000. I do not know where she is because people cannot pay $4,000 a year for child care any more if they want to have someone look after their child properly. It costs about $1,000 a month. It costs about $800 a month minimum for a child in this country. Let the member do her math: 12 times $800 equals $9,600 a year. That is a lot of money. That is not $3,000. That certainly is not all deducted within the income tax system.

That is what it costs a dual income earning family when they go out to work. That is, in terms of treatment, what puts them behind the single income earning two parent family. That is what I took pains to repeat. I thought I was repeating myself too much, but it is obvious I did not say it over and over enough times. I do not know the number of times it would take to get the information across.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I very much appreciate the comments of the Secretary of State for the Status of Women.

An important point which stuck with me is the complex family structures we have these days. There is no single tax burden or initiative that is going to make everything equal and equitable for everyone. We have to look at it in the context of tax measures and non tax measures as well as other social policy and economic initiatives. I congratulate the Secretary of State for the Status of Women.

The secretary of state is responsible for the status of women. This morning in the Globe and Mail I read a piece that concerned me a bit and I hope she will be able to help. I am sure mothers have read this and I am sure that Mothers Are Women, Kids First and other groups have read it. It quotes a report from the status of women. I do not know who wrote it. It says that any new measure targeted only at parents who stay at home to provide care to children would only further reinforce barriers to employment by reducing the incentive to engage in paid work.

This says to me that what we have now represents incentives to go to paid work and if we do anything for those who choose to stay at home, that incentive would be a negative.

I need some help from the Secretary of State on the Status of Women on this issue.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, that was a very good question the hon. member asked.

First and foremost, the sentence is taken out of context. It was the Government of Canada's response to the United Nations on the issue.

There are many people who have never been attached to the workforce who have stayed at home to look after their children. When they want to go into the workforce they would like the ability to have incentives to get the training they need. We also must be careful as we balance the incentive and the disincentive that we do not go so far as to create a disincentive.

That is simply what that means, that we must be very careful that we make sure choices are equitable and do not counterbalance it in one way or another. There is a risk of doing that if we only look at the income tax system as the way to deal with transfers to individuals in our country. That is what it means.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on this last exchange. There is a point I need clarification on.

It is quite clear that the secretary of state indicated that the incentive was to encourage people to enter the workforce. That of necessity says if we are going to give an incentive, we are going to put money, presumably with a tax break, a direct credit or whatever, toward helping people leave their families so they can go to work.

To me, it looks as if the government, if not forcing people to go to work because of economic constraints, is directing economic benefits to those who do in order to somehow achieve this goal. I have a problem with that. I would like her to clarify exactly what she means by this.

[Hedy Fry, Liberal, Vancouver Centre, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I thought I just did. I thought I answered the hon. member's question.

It is not about incentives, it is about disincentives as well. We must be careful in very complex situations to make sure that we balance incentives and disincentives so that there is not a higher focus on one. We do not want to create disincentives for people to enter the workforce if they choose. Why would any thinking group want to do that? Nor would we want to create disincentives for people to stay at home if they choose. It is about making sure that we have disincentives and incentives which do not counterbalance each other. If someone wants to go back into the workforce, and we know there are lots of single parents who stay at home or parents who say they do not want to go into the workforce afterward, we need to give them incentives to do so when they choose to do so.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, certainly there seems to be a great deal of defensiveness on the part of the government about a very simple concept of ending discrimination. I always thought that we would have a great deal of support on the Liberal benches for any attempt to end discrimination. Apparently not. Apparently this has generated all sorts of resistance.

The motion today is very simple. It is not simplistic, but simple. The tax system should be reformed to end discrimination against single income families with children. I am at a loss to understand why there would be such resistance and such anxiety on the other side.

I notice that on the other side when the position is indefensible, members opposite will misrepresent the position of their opponents and then attack that rather than try to defend their own position or even put forward, God forbid, a constructive alternative. No, what they do is misrepresent and then they attack the misrepresentation and they are the heroes again.

It is an old tired tactic. It is not going to work in this case because there are thousands and thousands of families in this country who at one point or another decide that the best household arrangement they can make is to have one of the parents care for the children of the family. They want some value attached to that choice. What they do not want is for that choice to be penalized, to be discriminated against.

Members of the government can protest all they like, but this is precisely what they are doing and have done for years and are refusing to stop doing, in spite of the fact that parties like our own have spent a great deal of time bringing this discrimination to the attention of government, to the attention of those who structure our tax system. We are simply asking for fairness, for an end to discrimination for people in our society who choose to spend a period of time for whatever reason caring full time for the children of a family.

It seems to me to be a concept that should be readily supported by the members opposite, but instead we hear some very, very strange language over there. We just heard a member talking about the workplace. Excuse me, but how many parents do not think that the place where they care for their children is a workplace? One works when one is caring for children. It is a workplace. It is time we recognized that it is a workplace and that that choice of work, if not being paid, should at least not be penalized.

The secretary of state went on at some length about all of the international work that Canada is doing to give value to unpaid work, which is very nice. What puzzles me is why we would put so much effort in that direction but fail to do the simple ordinary things that can be done through our own tax system at least not to penalize the people who are engaged in very important choices in our society.

The parliamentary secretary said that treating people equally does not mean equity. Is that not an interesting concept? How much discrimination in our society in the past has been justified by just such a specious argument as that?

If we are going to end discrimination against choices, if we are truly going to allow and validate free choice in our society about the best way to spend one's work time, particularly if that involves our own children, then surely ending discriminatory tax arrangements would be our number one priority. However, here we see the Liberal government members tying themselves in absolute knots trying to avoid the issue that we are laying on the table today.

I would like to mention that this has been an issue for Canadians for a long period of time. In 1994 a group of Canadians very close to this House, in the riding of Lanark—Carleton, raised an issue through the political process of my own party, the Reform Party. The issue concerned a young family in that riding.

The family had made the decision that one of the parents would work in the home full time giving care and guidance to the children in the family. Because of that work choice, the family felt very naturally that it should be given the same value as a choice of work would be given to any other Canadian. They made an arrangement whereby the parent caring for the children would be paid a salary from the other parent and the tax deductions and arrangements were claimed on that basis.

To the intense chagrin, disappointment and sorrow of this young family, Revenue Canada denied this arrangement and won the court case, a case which cost the family money it could ill afford but brought to make the point. The family then sought to redress the situation through the political process. They went to their local constituency association, explained the discrimination they had experienced and asked that policy making be put in place that would redress the situation.

The constituency association drafted a resolution and submitted it to the policy making process of the Reform Party assembly. The resolution was very simple. Often there is nothing complex about these issues, in spite of the protestations of government which seems to find complexities wherever it does not want to find solutions. The resolution stated, “The Reform Party supports a revision of the federal income tax regulations to end discrimination against parents who provide child care at home”.

This resolution went forward from the Lanark—Carleton constituency association. It was one of mine that was put forward. This went to all the other constituencies taking part in the assembly. The constituencies then ranked the resolutions that came forward. Three of the Lanark—Carleton resolutions made it to be debated, discussed and voted on at the assembly. One of those three resolutions from Lanark—Carleton was the one I just read.

From 600 resolutions that started at the constituency level, 40 reached the floor of the assembly by having levels of support suggesting that members of our party decided that they were important enough to debate. This resolution was passed at our assembly and is now part of Reform Party policy and has been since 1994. I will read it again. The Reform Party supports a revision of the federal income tax regulations to end discrimination against parents who provide child care at home. This has been part of our policy and part of our election platform. Through the tireless efforts of people like the hon. member for Calgary Centre this issue continues to be raised and will not go away. There can be all kinds of rhetorical evasions on the other side. There can be all kinds of misrepresentations and purple prose and trying to invoke the ghosts of old stereotypes but the fact is our party lives, as all Canadians do, in the society we have today where there are, as the hon. member for Mississauga South just mentioned, a variety of family arrangements. What we are proposing today is that these arrangements should not suffer any undue discrimination.

What kind of discrimination do they suffer? Perhaps hon. members will listen again to this. Federal tax, prebudget, paid by one earner families of four with a total income of $50,000 was $7,116. Post-1999 budget it was $6,464. The bottom line is one earner families paid 91% more tax after this budget than a two income family. It is unfair. It is discriminatory. We ask members to support us in putting an end to it today.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, when I first spoke today I suggested we would hear some unanimity or some consensus in the House on how important it was to provide quality care for our children regardless of how parents chose to provide that care.

I am working out some numbers. For someone who makes $25,000 a year, after doing the full tax return here I find that they pay $4,469 in income tax. They have also paid CPP and EI. Their net cash in pocket from a $25,000 a year job I calculate to be $19,168. It is a lot of money. It is insulting to suggest with a child care tax deduction which for a $25,000 a year person would give them a benefit of about $1,700, federal and provincial about 25%, that their decision to provide direct parental care is driven by $1,750. I cannot in my heart believe it.

I believe that parents who choose to provide direct parental care do it because it is their family value. They believe it is their choice in the best interest of their children that they provide direct parent care because they believe it has a direct impact on physical, mental and social health outcomes of children and what we are really talking about are the outcomes of children here, not about taxes.

I ask the member whether she would not agree that the tax consequences we are talking about here are really minor when we consider the net income a $25,000 a year job would generate, that the economic sacrifice being made is far greater than the impact of a tax deduction.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I find it a little sad that the member would suggest that if parents really believe in this it does not really matter if there are financial penalties applied because they are doing what they believe so that is a lot better than money in the bank.

I am sorry, that certainly is not good enough. Parents also value being able to put a roof over their children's heads, feed them milk, clothe them and make sure they have opportunities to develop their skills and abilities through training, through recreation, through the kinds of things we do in society.

If the member is on the track that discrimination in the tax system is fine because they have the intrinsic emotional reward of doing what they think is best, surely he is joking.

We have a government that unfortunately does take this attitude. For example, the government starts clawing back the child tax benefit when income exceeds as little as under $26,000. The CCTB supplement is phased right out when the family income exceeds just under $21,000. Imagine trying to raise a family on $21,000, but this government seems to feel we do not need this child tax benefit supplement, which it is so proud of, if we earn over $21,000.

The member who just asked the silly question about the reward of looking after children being far bigger than something financial said on July 22, 1998: “The bold reality is that our Income Tax Act does discriminate against families that choose to provide direct parental care”. This same member proposed that Ottawa pay parents who make this choice $50 a week. Clearly he does not believe his own rhetoric that somehow there is no financial dimension to this choice. I suggest he abandon that nonsense right away.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to first respond to an assertion made by the member for Mississauga South. I sort of agree with his line of thinking. He said that families choose to have a parent stay at home for reasons other than tax benefits, in particular family values and decisions they have made about the worth of having a parent stay at home. I absolutely agree with the member if that is what he believes. I am sure the member for Calgary—Nose Hill agrees with that. It is not a tax driven decision when parents make that decision. We can agree on that.

I want the member to also agree with me given the clear evidence in his tax policies that once a family has made the decision to have a stay at home parent in a single income family that the tax system of this Liberal government, the member's government, then penalizes it for that decision. That is what it is about. It is about the penalty the Liberal tax regime imposes on two parent families that choose to have one parent working in the workplace at home raising the kids because of values and decisions and one parent out working in the general workplace outside the home. The government penalizes them for that decision.

Let us agree on that. We can agree that it is a decision made by the family in the best interest of the family. We can all agree on that. If we can agree on that then we have to agree, given the evidence in the Liberal tax policies, that a family of four that chooses to have one parent stay at home with a single earner income of $55,000 a year is penalized to the tune of some $4,000. That is the whole point of this.

Let us not be confused by all the rhetoric we heard from the Secretary of State for Multiculturalism and the Status of Women who I believe is completely out of touch with the ambitions, the goals and the dreams of the average Canadian family. She verifies that statement every time she stands to speak in the House.

My personal opinion, although I know it is shared by many Canadians, is this tax discrimination, this tax penalty does not stand alone as sort of a single thought. I believe it is part of an overall scheme of social engineering that began back in the mid 1960s with the hero of these Liberals, Pierre Elliott Trudeau. No other person in this country set out to purposely destroy the family as we know it as Pierre Elliott Trudeau did. He alone was the driving force that has fuelled the Liberal government's scheme to initially drive the second parent out of the household, to separate that second parent from the responsibilities and the ability to nurture and guide their children in the values that made this country strong in the first place.

It is far more than this penalty. This is a continuation of a social engineering plan put in place by the Liberal government under Trudeau back in the mid 1960s. This government is carrying on that social engineering plan very well.

Why does it not want a parent at home? If there is not a parent at home, if both parents are working, it takes away from the time the children have with their parents to look to them for guidance. It takes away from the strength of the family. It takes away the togetherness of the family unit, the strongest building block we have in our society. At one time we had far more building blocks, far more family units than we have now.

The member from Mississauga South agrees with us. He knows families with a stay at home parent on a single income are discriminated against by the government. I will tell the House how he knows it. He said it. He agreed with us. He said on July 22, 1998, and he will remember this: “The bold reality is that our Income Tax Act does discriminate against families that choose to provide direct parental care”. His Liberal colleagues are all shaking their heads saying how could he make such an outlandish statement. I believe that if the member from Mississauga South looks into his heart he knows about the value of the whole part of our argument. He knows we are right.

The problem is with the majority of his colleagues. I say majority because there are some members who do not because of their beliefs hold positions of any great authority in that government. If there are free thinkers in the Liberal caucus, if there are members who cling to some traditional values, they do not get very far in that government. I congratulate the member for Mississauga South, even though his talk is a little confusing today, and probably a half dozen or more in that government who have had the courage to stand up for their deepest held convictions. Mr. Speaker, you know the value of standing up for your deepest held convictions. I know you appreciate those few members in that party who do as well.

The real nut and bolt in this thing is the tax penalty, the fine, the levy, the increased tax burden placed on two parent, single income families. That is the whole point of it.

There is a severe penalty to pay if any Canadian family makes the decision to have one parent in the workplace and one parent at home. There is a single income. There is a severe penalty to pay.

It seems to every logical, common sense, grassroots, ordinary Canadian to be a travesty, to be an injustice in this country that this government would lay that upon a family which makes the decision to have a parent stay at home to raise the kids while the other parent is out earning a living.

Just think of the sacrifice that parents make when they make that choice. There could be two parents who are capable of earning, say, $50,000 a year each because they have gone to school. They have an education. They have training. That is $100,000 in gross income they could be bringing into the household. But they say no because the nurturing, the guidance, the care of their children is more important. One of them will stay at home. That is a tremendous sacrifice they make from a financial point of view.

Then they find, after they have made that decision, that the Liberal government imposes a penalty on them on top of what they have already given up. I cannot believe the insanity of whatever weird logic the government used in that decision.

I cannot and I will not, when this motion of ours comes to a vote, understand any government member who votes against it. I will not understand the logic of any member of parliament in this House who votes against this motion.

Our party and this member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley will stand up for Canadian families in this House now and forever.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, first I would like to thank the member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley for his comments. Being from B.C. at one time, I have travelled through his riding quite extensively. It is a beautiful spot in Canada.

One thing he keeps mentioning, and I have heard it on several occasions, is that a person who stays at home has made a terrific sacrifice. On an economic level, he is correct. When my wife and I made the decision to have children and to have one of us stay at home, we never considered that a sacrifice in terms of the economy, we considered it an investment in the raising of our children.

I thank the Reform Party for bringing the motion forward today. I can stand here quite proudly and say that I wholeheartedly support it.

We know the Liberals discriminate when it comes to pay equity for their own workers. We know they discriminate when it comes to regional rates of pay. Why does he think it is any different to discriminate on a tax basis?

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, first I want to thank the hon. member for Sackville—Eastern Shore for reminding me—and I certainly agree with him—that it is not only a sacrifice, but there is real value and reward in having one parent stay at home if a family can make that sacrifice.

I agree with the other points that he made as well. The fact is, today we are talking about the Liberal government and the penalty which it has imposed, the levy it has heaped upon families who choose to have one parent stay at home and a single income. That is the motion today.

The other comments that he made I am sure we will deal with as this parliament goes along. I thank him for his support of the motion.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I think the member was right in his assessment on where my heart is on parents who choose to provide direct parental care.

However, one of the things I have learned is that one does not pit one group against another. We should not make judgmental calls on people's choices. We should be promoting flexible options and letting parents make the choice.

When I started in this place I pushed on the discrimination side. I continue to deliver on behalf of my constituents and Canadians from all provinces who want me to table petitions on discrimination against stay at home moms.

But the member will know that one of the major changes made in the last couple of federal budgets was the increased investment in the Canada child tax benefit of $1.7 billion. It is fully available to those making under some $25,000, and in fact people earning up to over $60,000 are still getting some benefit. It was primarily directed at those families who had lower and middle incomes. The value of that, as the secretary of state laid out, is very significant. In fact it is greater than the value of the child care expense deduction.

I believe the member should look more carefully at not just what happened in the tax act, but what has happened since to other non-taxable benefits. He will find that the attitude of the government has been to put the interests of children first because, according to our commitment to the UN on the rights of the children, children have the first call on the resources of the nation.

I ask the member to be very judicious in suggesting that somehow I do not agree with one item. I put it in the whole context and say that kids are being treated fairly.

[Dick Harris, Reform, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the values of the member for Mississauga South, but unfortunately he has chosen to do what every single Liberal who has spoken today has done. They have not been prepared to address the direct thrust of this motion. They have talked all around the whole system as it pertains to families, but they have carefully avoided the very particular part of the tax system that our motion refers to.

The hon. member for Mississauga South knows very well that in no part of my presentation did I attempt to pit families against each other because of their choices to have both parents in the workplace or one at home.

The Liberals themselves since 1965, since Mr. Trudeau, have deliberately pitted themselves against Canadian families, particularly against single income, two parent families. The Liberals have done the pitting.

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Mississauga West.

I am delighted to speak to this issue as a mother who works outside the home and as a very proud mother of three wonderful, talented, brilliant, charming and intelligent children, ages 17, 14 and 9.

The diverse and changing nature of working family life in Canada poses ongoing challenges to policy makers. With limited resources, government priorities have placed an emphasis on assisting families in greatest need.

The government has taken direct action to help low income families with children through the Canada child tax benefit which provides a special supplement of $213 per child under the age of seven for families that do not claim child care expenses.

Thanks to the 1999 budget, by July 2000 a typical one income family will be receiving better than twice the amount of a typical two income family for the Canada child tax benefit. The figures show $2,610 per year versus $1,270 per year. Indeed with the measures announced in the last three budgets the Canada child tax benefit will be enriched by $2 billion by the year 2000.

Canada provides a range of income tax in children's benefits, but our tax system is based on individual taxation and a progressive tax rate. Moreover, when the real cost of child care in dual earner and lone parent families is taken into account, these families have relatively less after tax disposable income than single earner couples.

If paid child care was not recognized as a cost of employment to the tax system it would constitute a serious barrier to women's employment.

With regard to pensions and retirement, parents who stay at home to care for children are recognized in several ways. Parts of the retirement system provide a basic benefit for all residents and an income tested guaranteed minimum income.

There are also provisions for an income-earning spouse to contribute to a private registered retirement savings plan for a stay at home spouse.

The Canada pension plan also has specific provisions for parents who care for children at home. The child-rearing dropout provision, for example, ensures that parents who are able to contribute little or nothing to the plan while caring for a child under seven are not penalized when future benefits are calculated.

Employment insurance benefits in Canada provide temporary income replacement to individuals who qualify. To qualify for benefits a parent must have been engaged in insurable employment prior to the birth or adoption of their child. Maternity, parental and adoption benefits do, however, provide income replacement for mothers and fathers who temporarily withdraw from paid work, including part time work, to care for their infants.

In addition, parents who stay at home after their benefit period has ended are eligible for up to five years to access a range of measures to help them return to employment if they should so desire.

Our government also continues to assist Canadian children and youth through a variety of programs. I am very proud to speak about the community action program for children and the Canada prenatal nutrition program which are jointly managed by the federal, provincial and territorial governments and which provide the kind of support that families need to help their children have a good start in life.

The 1997 budget announced increased funding for these programs of $100 million for the next three years. In the 1999 budget the Canada prenatal nutrition program was further enhanced. It received an additional $75 million over the next three years to reach many more high risk pregnant women. This is a program of which many constituents in my riding of Parkdale—High Park are beneficiaries. The community action program for children and the Canada prenatal nutrition program benefits the women's health centre and the Parkdale Parents Primary Prevention Program, which is known affectionately as the “five Ps ”, and which works out of St. Joseph's Health Centre in my riding. It is a wonderful program and has assisted many, many young children and pregnant women at high risk.

We should also remember that we have Canada student grants of up to $3,000 a year which are available to both full time and part time students in financial need who have children or other dependants.

Let us look at the Liberal government's tax principles. The Liberal government's tax is based on three fundamental principles. First, our tax system must be fair. Tax reductions must benefit first those who need them the most, low and middle income Canadians.

Second, broad based tax relief should focus initially on personal income taxes. That is where the burden is the greatest. Canadians should pay taxes consistent with their capacity to pay. We have a progressive tax system in Canada.

Third, because of our debt burden, broad based tax relief should not be financed with borrowed money. The elimination of the deficit in 1997-98 allowed the government to introduce measures providing for broad based tax relief. Targeted tax reductions into critical social and economic concerns are our first priority. Our government has put in place a responsible fiscal policy that has allowed us to preserve the valued programs that matter most to Canadians. Targeted tax relief has been provided for students, for charities, for persons with disabilities and for the children of parents with low incomes.

The Liberal approach has been based on results. With an improved fiscal situation over recent years, the Liberal government has been able to offer targeted tax relief where the need was the greatest. With the budget balanced, the government is in a position to do even more, and not on borrowed money.

The 1998 and 1999 Liberal government budgets will provide tax relief of $3.9 billion in 1999-2000, $6 billion in 2000-2001 and $6.6 billion in 2001-2002, for a total of $16.5 billion over three years so that all Canadian parents, those who stay at home and those who work outside the home, have more money in their pockets.

As the financial resources permit, general tax relief will continue to be provided, the priority being personal income taxes for middle and low income Canadians. Families with incomes of $45,000 or less will have their taxes reduced by a minimum of 10% and in some cases more.

Typical one-earner families with two children and incomes of $30,000 or less will pay no net federal tax. Families with incomes of $45,000 or less will have their taxes reduced by a minimum of 10% and in some cases even more.

As a result of the 1998 budget, 400,000 lower income Canadians no longer pay any federal income taxes. The 1999 measures will ensure that an additional 200,000 lower income Canadians will no longer pay federal income taxes. That brings to 600,000 the total number of taxpayers removed from the tax rolls due to both budgets.

We welcome a debate but we will not exploit it as a way to divide Canadian parents and Canadian women whose top priority, be it at home or outside the home, is giving their children the best future they possibly can. Let us start on that debate now.

Let us look at the disadvantages of dual earner families, people who have to pay for child care, people who do not have the ability to stay at home. We have talked many times about looking at having the whole child care benefit totally tax deductible. As we want to encourage women to export abroad they will be away from home more. We need to make sure that we have in place the good care givers and that those expenses can be deductible and have the same position as the cost of a secretary or the cost of janitorial staff.

Let us open the debate on what else we can do. Let us look at what we can do to make sure that we have in place all the things that are needed to provide the best for our children.

I would say one thing to the members of the Reform Party. I welcome this opportunity to look at all the ways we can best assist our society in making sure that our children are taken care of.

[Howard Hilstrom, Reform, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Mr. Speaker, certainly family issues have been a big concern of mine since I was elected in 1997. They are a big concern for my riding.

My riding is not particularly wealthy. There are many people with average or lower incomes. Child poverty has been brought to my attention many times over and over, both through the school system and by individual parents. People have also brought forward the unfairness of the tax system that is in favour of the two income families and discriminates against one income families. Does the member not appreciate and agree that if this discrimination was removed, child poverty would be lessened in Canada?

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question about child poverty.

As a mother who works outside of the home, I have always felt that as legislators, as policy makers, when we look at questions of child poverty or abuse against women and children, we have the duty to do everything we possibly can to ensure that we foster an environment to promote the economic independence of women. When we can foster the environment where women can walk away from abusive situations, it will be the children who will benefit. It will be those children of single, dual or whatever parent who will benefit. I again would welcome how we do that as a government through our tax policies.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, one of my favourite backbenchers of the Liberal Party is speaking again today. I do appreciate the fact that being a mother of three she has a great concern for this particular subject.

My question is very simple. She admitted that we have to work more. We have to find new solutions to help not only dual income earners but also the single income earner with a family. Why then did her government break its 1993 promise for day care facilities across this country to help those people who are in poverty and in tight situations? Why did her government break the day care promise which was the red book platform?

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question.

When we talk about child poverty and our promises, we promised that we would put in the Canada child tax benefit. The Minister of Human Resources Development yesterday in the House spoke about how consultations were made on how to best deal with child poverty. The answer was $850 million in the child tax benefit. In the following budget there was another $850 million, totalling $1.7 billion. In the 1999 budget we have another $300 million.

I would say to the hon. member not only are we honouring our promises to combat child poverty but we have done it in every single budget we have looked at in the last three years.

[Grant Hill, Reform, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I think the member missed the question so I would like to rephrase it. The question was, why did the Liberal government promise day care spaces in the 1993 election campaign and then break that promise? That was the specific question. I would like to know the answer.

[Sarmite Bulte, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thought I had answered the question.

We were talking about dealing with child poverty. We have put in place many things to assist parents who want to go back to work. We have Canada student grants as I indicated. I do not understand why the opposition does not acknowledge the tremendous benefits of the Canada child tax benefit. Perhaps it is because the Reform Party voted against it time and time again, but now the Reform Party is coming out as a saviour of children.

[Steve Mahoney, Liberal, Mississauga West, ON]

Mr. Speaker, it appears that we have another day in la-la land with the Reform Party motion. Somehow it has arrived on the road to Damascus to some great revelation that it has compassion.

The Reform Party will recall that yesterday the Minister of Health announced a new policy to allow for the medicinal use of marijuana on a pilot project basis. I am curious if the Reform Party caucus might not be one of the first pilot projects.