Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-49, the First Nation Land Management Act.
Originally the kings of Britain owned and taxed everything. The nobles got fed up with that and forced the king to back off on what he had previously owned. He had been able to tax and to decide who could use land, when and how. The nobles forced some changes. After the nobles finally had their say for a number of years, the commoners stepped in and had their say.
We do not yet have full ownership of land. We have something called an estate in land and the estate most Canadians have is an estate in fee simple. Fee common is not as common as one might think. It has finally come to the stage where Canada's Indians will perhaps get a stab at having an interest in land which the government does not control.
The evolution of ownership has been accompanied by armies of lawyers and consultants who have taken fees for their opinions. If we follow it all the way through, we get to Bill C-49 which purports to allow first nations to manage their lands.
Anybody watching the debate is aware that the official opposition has some very grave concerns about Bill C-49. It is not only our concerns. These concerns have been raised by a number of people.
Petitions have been filed. People have called talk shows and written letters to editors. Personal representations have been made to members of parliament, particularly from the west coast. Now they are coming in from the east coast where people are concerned about what Bill C-49 will do, what powers band councils will have and what will be the limits of their powers.
While the B.C. Liberal member for Vancouver Quadra has not spoken in the House in opposition to the bill, he has expressed opposition as reported in the Vancouver Sun on March 3. The article indicated that he “voted with the government Monday but said he is working behind the scenes to ensure there is a thorough Senate committee study, including public hearings and possible amendments”. It went on to indicate:
“No, I don't” support the bill, the MP for Vancouver Quadra said on Tuesday.
“Some concerns that had been felt by B.C. MPs on the fast track procedure are being resolved by what's emerging as an understanding that the Senate will study and hold public hearings and will possibly consider amendments and changes for the House.
“The details will be worked out in the next few days”.
It further indicated that the member said:
—the bill, along with media coverage of a 7,000% rent increase imposed on non-natives living in Musqueam Park in Vancouver, is fuelling more public concern over broader and more crucial native issues such as the $490 million Nisga'a treaty.
That treaty is also under attack because it is perceived to be granting far more power and lack of accountability.
The member for Vancouver Quadra has stated that Bill C-49 was poorly drafted. He supported concerns expressed by others who said that expropriation rights for Indian bands were excessive. There is a lack of protection for native women who often use their right to marital property after divorce and the omission of any mechanism requiring consultation with surrounding municipalities on development matters. He said “The public's concern is correctly focused on it”.
Another government member plans to vote against Bill C-49. He said the bill was excessive and criticized the government for imposing closure to limit debate in the House of Commons. He accused the minister of intentionally trying to avoid public consultation on land claims and self-government matters across Canada. He stated that their position was to keep the dummies in the dark.
When government members raise those kinds of concerns, the government should be listening. It is not just us.
Today I asked a question about the government shutting down debate on Bill C-49. I am going to quote what a respected academic elder at the Saskatchewan Indian Federated College said, “The problem with entrusting band councils to help develop divorce laws is that traditional customs are vague”.
The government has refused to deal with an issue that is going to create a mosaic of rights across Canada as bands write their own laws in respect to divorce. Does it seem fair when a woman from one reserve marries a man from another reserve and finds out that she has a different set of rights than she was born with? This is Canada, one country. Surely this country will respect equality at least between men and women. This is not too much to expect at all.
I would like to speak for a moment on the expropriation provisions in this bill. Clause 28 of the bill, a very short section, talks about expropriation which allows a band to write its own expropriate act. Subclause 5 states:
A first nation shall pay fair compensation to the holder of an expropriated interest and, in determining that compensation, the first nation shall take into account the rules set out in the Expropriation Act.
Taking into account is not the same as being bound by. I am not a lawyer and do not claim to understand all the legalese, but I am sure that we are going to see judges beginning the process, after this bill is passed, if it is passed unamended here or by the Senate, of determining what it would mean to take into account the provisions of the Expropriation Act which is a federal act. The federal act lays out in very clear stages what the mechanisms and timelines are for recourse with respect to dispute resolution at arbitration in the event there is a conflict over expropriation.
As I said earlier on in the debate, getting control over land is a process that has taken centuries. It has gone from the kings to the nobles to the commoners and it is finally getting down to the Indian bands. However, let us not leave out the people who are affected by it. It is not always the leaders. It is the people who are governed by the leaders. We want to ensure that they are not unfairly left out.
The expropriation does not necessarily have to be natives over non-natives. It can be natives over natives. Whoever owns an interest can have that interest ended by expropriation.
A municipal expropriation act will talk about the compensation proposed. It might talk about the description of the land, what is the extent of the land required, the reasons for doing it and those types of things. If people do not agree, they have recourse. Provincial legislation sets up all of the conciliation and arbitration boards to determine how compensation is paid. It is always in the interest of a municipality to have a mechanism to obtain land for public purposes but the owner of the interest has to be protected. We certainly do not want the courts to be involved early on in every dispute.
I am sure that introducing a simple motion calling for the clauses in the federal Expropriation Act to be binding is not too much. We want to see development on Indian land, but if people are concerned that they may not have their interests safely held, we will not find people investing. One thing investors look for is certainty of profit and certainty of a continuing profit and that it will not end. If people own a home they want to ensure that they hold it now and in the future. They do not want it taken away without proper compensation.
The bill is deficient in that way. It is in the interest of the signatory bands to put those amendments in place. It is not in our interest. It does not matter to me. I do not live on band land. I have a home that is held in fee simple in the town of Nipawin. Consequently, I have nothing to gain in this but the bands have something to gain and those who hold interest in the land have something to gain.
Perhaps I do have something to gain. When the Reform Party forms the next government, I do not want to be back here having to deal with Bill C-49. I want to be able to move on to new legislation the government will have on its agenda at that time.
Those are all good reasons that we should not rush ahead on this bill. It is the government's role to write legislation and to get it right the first time. If the government does not do this, it has to be willing to make the necessary amendments.
It is not our role to write the legislation but to ensure it goes through the House in correct form. It is our role to make it perfectly clear to the public that a bill is deficient and that the government will have to do something about it. That is what we are doing. I hate to think we are going to send a bill that originated here to the Senate of all places asking that it make the amendments we refused to make. That is a ridiculous thing to expect.
What can we say about the matrimonial home? The children live in the home, the mother lives in the home, the father should be staying in the home. We want to see the family as a unit but realistically, families break down. The B.C. Native Women's Society has raised a concern as have native women across Canada and the national native women's organizations. Why has that not rung a bell with the government? Why is the minister simply saying that they are consulting? Why not get the consultation done first and then come to the House with a bill that is complete in its current form?
I read earlier about Mr. Cuthand, a respected elder who was a priest in the Anglican church. Why are the concerns of men like him not listened to? The government has rushed ahead and allowed this to go on the back burner for who knows how long. There will surely be court cases, payouts and domestic tragedies because the government has refused to accept that it has a responsibility not only to chiefs and councils but to the people they govern as well.
Let us talk about the issue of ratepayers on reserves which I do not believe has been raised today. They have no vote. Prior to the American revolution some protesters dressed up as Indians and threw a load of tea overboard from a ship docked in Boston harbour. Why? Because they did not want to be taxed without representation. What we have here is taxation without representation. Many cottage owners have raised the concern that they are going to be taxed but they are not going to be represented. Does the government consider this fair?
Indians have been kept down in the past but overwaiting is not any better. It still creates conflict and hardship. It is a major concern to everyone.
The lack of public knowledge about this bill is coming to light. There is a newspaper article that talks about women from the Saint Mary's reserve near Fredericton. A woman in the article is demanding equality, an honest and responsible government, and she is against the mismanagement of funds. She is concerned about Bill C-49. She says that it will give up control over management of reserve land.
I do not think that every reserve has a government that is irresponsible and unresponsive, but they are there. Certainly we want people to have the power to hold the members of the council to account. We do not see that with Bill C-49 going through in its current form.
I am asking the government to vote in favour of the amendment my colleague from Skeena put forward today. Send the bill back to committee to address these valid concerns and then bring the bill back to the House, not so that anybody's rights are diminished, not that what they intend is diminished, but that the bill be made sufficient and not be passed in this deficient form.
We heard convincing arguments earlier that there existed a high level of support for the bill by members of the reserves and all the communities surrounding them, but in January events overtook that testimony. Concerns were expressed, as I said before, in letters to the editor, talk shows and letters to MPs, all of these things. Municipal councils raised concerns. Constituents raised their concerns. They all stated that they had concerns with Bill C-49 in its current form. Consequently we are required as members of parliament to bring these concerns to parliament.
Aboriginal women and children living on reserves do not enjoy the protection of property division laws that are available to every other Canadian woman. There is no protection whatsoever regarding the use, occupation and possession of land when a marriage breaks down with each band devising its own land code.
A band of 200 people here, a band of 200 members over there, a band of 1,000 people over here, what kind of legislation will result from individual bands as different pressure groups push to have their interests represented? Why not do it here in our national parliament where all sides of the debate from all reserves can be heard. We can come up with a fair and equitable law allowing for the division of the matrimonial home and other property. It just is not right to do it the way it is being done.
We know that the band councils probably wish the best, but do they know what is best? Do they know the laws? Do they have access to the expertise to write these codes? Do they have the expertise to write property division acts? Do they have the expertise on expropriation?
We are not talking about Bill C-49, which has been developed by the Government of Canada. We are going back to the individual reserves, many of which are already under stress where their finances are concerned. They are being asked to put more money into developing parts of a land code that could be adopted right here in the House of Commons. They could simply apply it. Judges could take it and understand it. Then one judgment where there was possible alternative application would be binding rather than having every band's land code subject to judicial interpretation. It just does not make any sense.
I will end with a clear call to the government to reconsider forcing this legislation through. It is denying the legitimate expressed concerns of band members, municipalities and other interested persons. Not only have they said it to the official opposition, but we know they have expressed these concerns to the government as well. They want us to get the bill right in the House the first time so that we do not see all kinds of amendments going through at the Senate study of the bill. We know it is going to come back for amendment.