Mr. Speaker, at the outset of my continuing intervention I must point out, as I tried to do on a point of order immediately after question period, that the Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development during question period, and at other times, incorrectly stated that members of the Reform Party supported Bill C-49 at second reading.
For the record, I have a copy of the vote that was taken on December 1, 1998 when the bill was being voted upon at second reading. The results of that vote were: yeas, 199; nays, 38, the 38 comprising all of the Reform members who were present in the House for the vote that day.
I note that the minister addressed her remarks specifically to me. I would also point out that I was here for that vote and that I in fact voted against Bill C-49, which is in direct contravention to the minister's statement.
I think this goes to the heart of the problem. The government, the minister and the parliamentary secretary continue to put out misleading and erroneous information on a regular basis on this bill. They have, as a result of that, undermined the confidence of people, particularly in British Columbia but across Canada, as to the intent of Bill C-49. I suggest they have done themselves no favours by doing this. The parliamentary secretary was talking about driving wedges. There is nothing worse in terms of driving wedges between people than putting out information which is incorrect, which is deliberately done and which is done to try to leave people with a false impression of what actually has taken place.
Prior to Christmas, as a result of lobbying by a number of different people, including aboriginal leaders who stand to be affected by Bill C-49, we agreed to sit down to see if there was a way that we could support Bill C-49 with amendments, because we certainly agreed with the principle inculcated in the bill, that decision making should be taken out of Ottawa and put into the hands of people in local areas.
We were led to believe by the government and by some of the people we were dealing with that these amendments would be possible, but it turned out at the end of the day that the government was not prepared to entertain these amendments. For that reason, regrettably—and I say regrettably very sincerely— we could not support Bill C-49. To have done so would have been to really let down the people across Canada who have been asking us to stand up for these amendments and to make sure the bill was fixed prior to being adopted.
I will return to discussing the expropriation powers in the bill, which is where I left off prior to question period.
The parliamentary secretary and the minister deny that the expropriation powers in Bill C-49 are broad and sweeping. The parliamentary secretary said that the federal Expropriation Act would actually confine aboriginal bands to that particular legislation.
I point out for the people watching and for the parliamentary secretary that the bill specifically states that in the event of a conflict between Bill C-49 and the federal Expropriation Act, Bill C-49 would take precedence. Clearly that means that the federal Expropriation Act, in effect, does not have any real influence over how expropriations might take place on reserve land in the future. The expropriation powers are not only a concern to people on leasehold land on reserves across Canada, they are also very much a concern to band members.
One of the reasons we have had great difficulty in supporting Bill C-49 is this. I have personally met with some of the chiefs who have been trying to get this legislation passed and trying to get Reform's support for it. They indicated that their band members were in support of it. In fact, in the case of the Squamish band, regrettably, we found out after the fact that most of the people on that reserve were not consulted about Bill C-49. We have a petition signed by some 230 members of the band saying that they were not consulted, that they are opposed to the bill and that they want it to be changed. They are very concerned about their rights as band members. They say very clearly that up until a very short while ago—the end of January—they were never consulted and they were not even aware that the band council was working with the government to have Bill C-49 brought into effect.
These band members are equally concerned, just as those who have leasehold interests on reserve land are concerned, about being expropriated. They feel that the chief and council will have altogether too much power and too much ability. They do not want to rely on a land code which may come into effect down the road to grant the protection they are looking for. They want it to be enshrined in the legislation.
I cannot for the life of me understand why the government, the minister and the parliamentary secretary are standing in opposition to that. I cannot understand why they want to deny these people having their protection and their rights enshrined in this legislation. It is not a difficult matter for that to be accomplished.
The minister said that the concerns about expropriation are overblown. However, a real estate agent wrote a letter to a client on the Musqueam reserve, advising him to take his house off the market because in his professional opinion as a real estate agent that house currently has no market value. The parliamentary secretary and the minister can argue with Reform, but they certainly cannot argue with the marketplace. I can assure the House that right now—and this is a very clear situation—the marketability of homes on the Musqueam reserve is at zero. They cannot sell their homes. These are homes that were often valued at several hundred thousand dollars each a couple of short years ago. Many of the people who are living in them are at or near retirement and living on fixed incomes.
The fellow who first contacted me about the inability to market his home, and the letter that he had received from the real estate agent advising him of that, does not live on the Musqueam reserve. He in fact lives in Calgary; he has retired to Calgary. He wants to sell his home to get his equity out it. The sale of his home was a big part of what he was counting on to retire.
We can see how people have been dramatically affected by not only Bill C-49 but by other moves the government has been making with respect to the disposition of lands on reserves.
A large part of the problem on the Musqueam reserve arose because federal governments over a long period of time have made changes without disclosing to the people who lived on those reserves that they had made those changes.
In 1980 the Liberal minister of Indian affairs, John Munro, signed a discretionary letter that he was authorized to sign under section 53 of the Indian Act, transferring his authority to the Musqueam Band Council in terms of dealing with the leases. That was done without any notice and without any consultation with the people who live in those houses, the leaseholders. They had absolutely no knowledge that this had taken place.
Furthermore, in 1991 another minister of Indian affairs, Tom Siddon, signed a further agreement which gave the band taxation authority over those leaseholders. This was contrary to what the people had been led to believe when they entered into the leases in 1965 through 1973. The deal at that point was that the city of Vancouver would be providing the services and would be collecting the property taxes.
Incidentally, once that transfer was done the property taxes rose dramatically, two to three times. A large portion of those property taxes have been for school taxes because we know that in Canada property taxes are levied in most municipalities for municipal services and there is a separate component for schools.
The band has collected, according to news reports, about $6 million in school taxes since 1991. Yet not one penny has actually gone toward school or education. Not one penny was transferred to the provincial government in aid of education. There has been absolutely no school services provided by the Musqueam band to the leaseholders that have been paying these taxes.
Those are the kinds of flaws which leave people very uncertain and very concerned about the kinds of sweeping changes Bill C-49 contemplates. For the life of me, I do not understand why the government and the minister are not prepared, if they want to get the bill passed, to look at amendments that would provide protection and give people a level of comfort so that they would be willing to move forward.
We know that by and large Canadians are decent, fair minded people. I have met personally with virtually all the Musqueam residents. I know they are decent, fair minded people. I know they are not opposed to the aspirations of the band. They just want to be treated fairly. At the present time they feel they have been treated extremely unfairly, not only by the band but also by the government because the government has chosen to proceed with major changes without any consultation and without any notice to the leaseholders.
Going further and talking about marital property rights, in the minister's intervention she talked about the fact that she as minister and previous ministers for the past 130-odd years had been making decisions on behalf of bands for the disposition of reserve lands.
I certainly agree with her that it is completely inappropriate that these decisions be made in Ottawa. We certainly agree with the principle of devolving that decision making power. However, where the government is in error and where the minister is in error goes back to the whole notion of collective property rights.
I live in a municipality and the municipality does not own the land I have my house on. Why would people living on a reserve want the band council to own the land that their houses are on? Why is there no provision for private property rights? Why is there no provision for the property rights that all other Canadians enjoy, and in particular that all other Canadian women enjoy on the disposition of a marital home in the event of a marriage breakdown?
It is not rocket science. It is not difficult if we have people who are willing to examine that issue and provide those protections, but we see no inclination in that regard whatsoever. Now what we find is that the government is intending to send the bill to the Senate to have the Senate fix it up because it has finally come to understand and recognize that there are problems with it.
In conclusion, I would like to propose the following amendment:
That the motion be amended by deleting all the words after “Management” and substituting the following therefor:
“be not now read a third time but referred back to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development for the purpose of reconsidering all the clauses with a view to ensure that the land code is consistent with the federal Expropriation Act and provincial expropriation acts as applicable.
I would ask that the House adopt the amendment.