Mr. Speaker, it is nice to see the Progressive Conservative Party knows how the House operates. We have introduced motions here to try to improve Bill C-65, while the Reform Party has been saying this morning that they would have liked to but did not know quite how, they did not have the time and they sort of got sidetracked in the procedure.
We manage to do it and it makes for a good debate so that people understand what C-65 is really all about. So we are proud to do it.
What must be remembered in the motion we put forward is that we are attempting to improve Bill C-65 quickly. A Reform member was saying that it might be too late, but we were talking about the committee of the whole House, not a committee outside this chamber. It is the committee of the whole where we can assure all the provinces, including Newfoundland, Nova Scotia and Quebec that—in the last part of the motion, it is mentioned—should there be some extra money, they will not be penalized by the equalization payments immediately, but they will be able to spread it out.
That is what we talked about in committee. There was a discussion of spreading it over five years. Various formulae were discussed. Unfortunately, that is not in Bill C-65.
My colleague from Kings—Hants provided an example to help understand it. The analogy I will now make may not work perfectly, but it will allow members to understand what I am geeting at.
If we do not pass the motion moved by my colleague, the member for Kings—Hants, the provinces will find themselves in a situation something like that of a single parent family on welfare. A job means the immediate loss of the so-called benefits of the social assistance system, such as drug and dental plans, rent to income accommodation, and so forth.
We now know that several provinces, including Quebec, have decided to lessen this impact. We would have liked to see Bill C-65 take the same approach so that a province that put a lot of energy, and often a lot of money, into developing its primary and natural resources would not immediately be penalized. We would have liked Bill C-65 to take a much more logical approach with respect to what could happen in provinces now facing more of an uphill battle than others but wanting to do better.
I hope that all members will support this motion, especially our Reform Party friends who, having been unable to come up with good amendments for the provinces, can turn to us.
Bill C-65 talks about equalization. When I was younger, I viewed equalization as a Robin Hood situation, where the government took from the rich and gave to the poor. This is the simple explanation of a system that unfortunately can have its negative side, as C. D. Howe pointed out. That gentleman wrote an article in which he said that Canada's equalization system consisted of taxing low income Canadians in the have provinces to cover part of the cost of transfer payments to high income residents in the have not provinces.
One must be very cautious about examples referring to Robin Hood or C. D. Howe, for fear of running down a system that does, when all is said and done, work well. Even our friends in the Bloc Quebecois have said so on a number of occasions. In fact, their silence today is probably an indication of this.
According to the C. D. Howe example, a poor family in a rich province is likely to have access to assistance from that province, because it has the means. Care must therefore be taken not to criticize a system that works rather well, when all is said and done.
The equalization payment system has been in place since 1957. It is an unconditional transfer to the provinces, one with which the provinces are generally in agreement. Some provinces even have their own equalization system because there are not only national disparities, but also provincial, regional and local disparities.
For example, for several decades Quebec had an equalization system based on the federal system, as far as its philosophy and calculations go. It used an overall taxation rate, based on a standardized municipal property value, and thus enabled the province to help the least advantaged to get through some hard times.
This changed in 1979. Today, the program scarcely exists any more in Quebec; nevertheless, the philosophy of richer regions helping poorer regions works very well.
I have never heard it said in Quebec that a poor family in a rich region was providing help for a rich family in a poor region. To say so about a system that works very well is pure demagoguery.
Hopefully, Bill C-65 can be improved to help the poorest regions and bring hope to the poorest people. As I said earlier, the amendment moved by my colleague will be a tax incentive to regions starting to make a go of it, without penalizing them.
It is wonderful to see all members in agreement. This morning, I listened to the Reform Party finance critic, who spoke at great length but did not actually say anything useful. He said that they would do things differently. More than once, he commented on how it did not make sense for three provinces to pay for the other seven. He thought it should be five or six paying for three or four.
How is this any different? This is not how the equalization system works. But, according to the Reform Party, it is because things are going well for them in two of the three richest provinces, and they would like to do well in the third. It is not by getting a greater number of provinces to pay for a smaller number that the Reform Party will increase its chances of winning the next election. They are busy creating a new party and trying to come up with a good platform for the next election. We know this will not fly.
The equalization system must continue to improve. That is why the legislation is reviewed every five years. That is why the federal and provincial governments are in constant contact, to monitor the situation on an ongoing basis so that every five years action can be taken to smooth out inequalities in the process.
From three or four criteria in the late 1950s, we now have more than thirty today. This may be complex, but the tax base has broadened and changed, and new tax methods have been introduced.
The leader of the Reform Party said in his speech that he did not understand, that Canadians did not understand. It may not be just equalization payments they do not understand. They perhaps do not understand their tax return either, and that is why there are accountants. The Reform Party does not understand and that is why it is dropping in the polls. The fact that some folks do not understand does not mean that what they do not understand is not good for others.
The tax base has changed, it is better. And that is why we went from three or four items to 30. We hope it is not to complicate things, but to be fairer and more equitable.
For example, 10 or 20 years ago, there were no casinos. Revenues from casinos were not taken into account. Why? Because there were no casinos in Canada. There were community bingo halls, but no casinos. Now revenues from lotteries and games are taken into account in the analysis of equalization payments. Has it made the system more complex? No, I think it is an element to be taken into consideration. Not including it would penalize the regions.
This is why they think there is a change, but the change must be toward really helping, ensuring that equalization payments are at the heart of a country, and of a province and a region. They must serve the purpose for which they were initially intended—to help the people.
We must make sure that, in the regions, in spite of their difficulties and differences, people can enjoy basic services, framework and support equivalent to that of others in this country.
The same thing is done provincially. Quebec did it for decades. It is understandable. It is a principle. We could call it not the Robin Hood of Canadian taxes, but simply charitable, logical.
We are here to make sure that people have excellent services at reasonable cost throughout the country.