Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to enter into debate on Bill C-78. I want to reiterate some of the things I said earlier during questions and comments concerning the nature of the plan.
I discussed the aspect that this is a defined benefits plan. That is very specific because what it says is that it is based on certain things. For instance, the last six years of employment earnings is how they go about calculating the pension one will receive in retirement.
Quite frankly it has nothing to do with the money sitting in the plan. One could actually even have a plan of this nature which has no money in it whatsoever, as long as the employer was of sufficient calibre to make the payments. The reason there is a notional plan is that it involves the actual contributions by the employees and the employer.
Various legislative bodies from time to time say that should be invested. The whole concept of investing it occurs within the private sector because we are not so sure the employer will be there to make the final payments. Most of us agree that it has occurred by way of convention that most people believe the government will somehow continue to be here and somehow continue to honour their pensions. The reason there is a surplus is that there has been some kind of actuarial decree which is some kind of inexactitude.
I would like to point out another very basic aspect of this plan. Most private plans require contribution ratios of the employees of at least 40%. This plan has had a contribution ratio from the employee of only 30%. The employer, the government, has actually paid 70%. Most people would conclude that this has been a very generous plan.
Earlier today I heard the minister say that civil service employees are good workers, that we honour that and we are happy to give them a very generous plan. However, our generosity has to stop when we start talking about this notional surplus.
How would members opposite deal with the surplus? Would they physically give money or enhance the benefit packages of the beneficiaries? That would be breaking the original terms of the agreement. That would be saying that we are going to pay even better benefit levels than those which were originally agreed to, as generous as they were. Or would they reduce the premiums, even though the premiums are some of the lowest of all the pension plans in the country?
Indeed, because it is based on 7.5% of earnings, less the amount of Canada pension plan contributions, members' contributions to the plan have been decreasing, whereas everybody else in the country has been paying higher premiums into their pension plans, realizing that to have an enhanced pension plan it has to be paid for.
There is no justification for the argument that somehow the money belongs to people other than the people who originally put in the money, who are the taxpayers of the country. I am very surprised by the attitude of Reform members. They say that we have to reduce deficits and then suddenly they say “Leave the money in the plan”.
However, there is no plan and there is no physical money in the plan. The plan is financed from the general revenues of the Government of Canada. They are saying “Take money out of the tax revenues this year and give it away to these people”. Reform members are saying that the taxpayers should somehow shell out more money for a plan that has been very well put together, at great benefit to the employees of the civil service, who are already receiving the benefits they were guaranteed under the plan.
Is this called progress? Is this called integrity or accountability? It is ridiculous. I am surprised. I hope we do cut off debate because the debate which is coming from that side of the House is not very meaningful.