Yes, I can pledge my property for security if I want to raise money for a mortgage, to start a business and for a whole variety of uses.
What the legislation before us does is it transfers the administration of lands which, incidentally, are lands that are legally held in the title of the crown of Canada. This is also a big flaw and a big mistake. Why should the land title for Indian reserves be held by the crown? That is totally inappropriate, but that is how they are held. What the crown is simply saying is that it is not going to administer those lands any more, that it is going to turn them over to the local chief and council.
We all know that in a democracy that expresses itself to be concerned about the individual rights of people and tries to give individuals as much freedom and opportunity as possible, we recognize that fundamental to that is, as I said earlier, creating a private property right. This does not do that. The bill just simply transfers the administration of these lands from one government jurisdiction to another, from one body of government to another and from one bureaucracy to another.
The Reform Party is on record as supporting the notion that decisions made with respect to most aspects of community life are better made at the community level than they are in Ottawa or in the legislatures in the various provinces. We believe that the more we devolve the decision making the more likely it is that better decisions will be made. It is very likely that as a result of this legislation there will be better decisions made with respect to the business of the band and the business of land development, but, from an individual point of view, I would argue that it is more likely that individual rights will be prejudiced as a result of this legislation rather than enhanced.
I will now continue to quote the minister. She said:
This means that First Nations can undertake projects without having to turn to me for their approval.
We would agree that is a good thing. She continues to say:
They will have the flexibility to move quickly when economic opportunities arrive or when partners approach them. In that way, they can get on with the task of creating jobs and encouraging economic growth in their communities.
I should also like to welcome my parliamentary secretary. We spoke about the importance of (him) being with us today, as well. I am glad he is able to join me.
The notions and philosophy in Bill C-49 are in keeping with our government's efforts to increase self-sufficiency in First Nations communities. The bill is a major component of the goals that we outlined in “Gathering Strength—Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan”, which was the federal government's response to the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples.
Members will recall that the government tabled a response to RCAP of January of last year. I remember that it was during the ice storm because I came back here for the minister's announcement and almost had to stay here for a week before I could get a plane to leave again.
The minister, in referring to that, was saying that these legislative initiatives were a response to the RCAP report. I would remind the House that there were many people present at that announcement of the minister, including Mr. Daniels who represents off-reserve natives, and Marilyn Buffalo who represents Native Women's Association of Canada. They were not particularly enamoured with the minister's announcement and made presentations very much in opposition to what Bill C-49 is all about.
The minister goes on to say:
In previous opportunities that I have had to meet with the Senate, we have had a lively and informed discussion on how appropriate it is that we move to a new and modern relationship with First Nations in Canada.
I will now turn to the issue of the land codes. Let us remember that the bill and the framework agreement provide for the creation of land codes that will set out the specifics of the new land management regime for each First Nation. Community members, not chiefs and council, will approve these land codes. A land code will be the basic law that will govern lands and resources, after the land provisions of the Indian Act are withdrawn from the community. The land code will include the rules and procedures that will apply to the use and occupancy of First Nations land, the sharing of revenues, accountability to members, the enactment of laws, conflict of interest, and the establishment of alternative dispute-resolution mechanisms. The land codes are to be ratified by on- and off-reserve adult members in each community. First Nations will establish a specific process for ratification within the parameters of the framework agreement.
I want members to remember that what the minister is essentially saying is that the band members themselves are going to be the ones to adopt these land codes and they will be the ones who determine how land is to be managed on the reserve after Bill C-49 is enacted.
The aboriginal women who testified in front of the standing committee on aboriginal affairs and the senate standing committee had some very pointed things to say about that very issue. They are deeply concerned that this will not be the case. I want members to recall that. I will come back to it through the testimony of the aboriginal women who came to Ottawa and gave us their views.
The minister goes on to say:
I would note that this bill is really a win-win opportunity for all parties.
We only wish it were so. She goes on to say:
The First Nations win because they can include their land and resources in decisions that shape their future. The First Nations and their neighbouring communities also win because increased economic development on First Nations land will mean a healthier economy for the region. They will be able to deal directly with the First Nation on business matters instead of having to go through my department.
Again, we think that is a good thing. We are not opposed to that. As a matter of fact, the Reform Party worked very hard trying to negotiate amendments to the bill late last fall that would have seen us supporting Bill C-49, except we could not get the government's agreement to support those amendments.
Now, at this late stage, we find ourselves in this unfortunate situation of not being able to support Bill C-49, and we do it on behalf of these people who have approached us. It is not our issue anywhere near as much as it is theirs. They are the ones who have asked to do this.
The minister goes on to say:
I should like to turn now to three particular issues that have been the concern of this committee and others, not the least of which is the issue expropriation.
The issue of expropriation deals with the First Nation expropriation powers. Members of the committee have raised the issue of whether First Nation expropriation powers here differ from those provided to other entities. At the outset, I would remind you that expropriation powers already exist under the Indian Act.
They do, but those expropriation powers are currently in the hands of the federal government and not in the hands of the band. The federal government is currently bound to the Expropriation Act.
She goes on to say:
On request of First Nations, I can exercise expropriation powers for the general welfare of First Nations under section 18(2) of the act.
With this bill, we are seeking to replace the powers under the Indian Act and to ensure that the signatory First Nations have the tools they need to manage their land. The power to expropriate of the signatory First Nations is similar to the expropriation power afforded to federal and provincial governments and the public and private organizations such as municipalities, school boards, universities and hospitals.
It is important to recognize that this bill does not allow for arbitrary expropriation.
All of the people we heard from, including band members, are saying exactly the contrary. If members read the wording of the bill, it is easy to see that the minister is incorrect. I want to repeat this. She said that it is important to recognize that this bill does not allow for arbitrary expropriation. It says in the bill that the band can expropriate for any purpose it deems to be in the band's interest.
If the band council has a meeting one night and decides it is in the band's interest to expropriate a piece of property to build a community hall or to build a sewer and water project and so on, that is fair ball. What happens if it decides it is in the band's interest to expropriate and take a number of band members or non-native leaseholders out of their homes because there would be a higher return on that property if there were multi-family residential apartments for rent? That is the kind of concern people have been expressing.
The minister is quite wrong when she makes that statement. She knows she is wrong. It is very clear. Words mean something. Words are not put into agreements because they have no meaning. I am not a lawyer but I do know from long and sometimes painful experience that we have to take agreements at face value. We cannot read into them things that are not there and we cannot read out of them things that are there.
It says very clearly that the band can expropriate for any purpose it deems to be in the band's interest. Any purpose. It does not say it has to be a water project or a sewer project. It does not say it has to be a road or a hydro project or anything like that. Any purpose. By the way, no municipality or province can expropriate under those kinds of conditions. Canadians would never stand for it.
Expropriations do happen from time to time in Canada but they happen when there is clearly a public good at stake and most of the time there is fair compensation. Too many times government drags its feet and does not want to pay fair compensation, but for the most part there is reasonable compensation paid as a result of an expropriation that may take place.
In this instance for the appeal process, if they do not like what the band offers for that expropriation, it is for the band itself. That is clearly unfair. We are not going to suggest that bands are going to be unfair, but it is part of any reasonable process that a disengaged, unbiased third party would arbitrate a dispute if there was a dispute over what fair compensation should be for an expropriated parcel. Every other Canadian would want to be entitled to that and every other Canadian is entitled to that. That is the reason we have arbitration processes. It is the reason we have our courts. Courts are disengaged, unbiased parties who are supposed to arbitrate a decision when two parties are in dispute.
When two parties are in dispute I do not think many people would find it very acceptable that one party would go to the other for a resolution of that dispute. Mr. Speaker, if you and I are in dispute over an issue of monetary compensation, I hardly think it would be fair that I would have to go to you to have that dispute resolved, that you would be the decision maker. That is the way this legislation is written. I do not think that is acceptable at all. I do not think that is the Canadian way of doing things. I do not understand why the government is not willing to make changes.
I apologize if I am taking time, but I want to clearly articulate the serious flaws with this bill. I want to say it is not appropriate for a minister of the crown to say that she has a fiduciary obligation to aboriginal people, which she does and we accept that, and then to be the arbiter herself of these very serious questions. We need to have an opinion from justice.
We need to have an opinion from some other area that can give us an unbiased, fair interpretation of what this all means without the burden of the fiduciary obligation of the minister attached to it. She has her job, she should do her job. But we should also have another party. I would suggest it should be the Minister of Justice, the justice department that provides us with the kind of direction that we need.