Debates of Feb. 15th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the assurances go back to the fact that we are engaged with partners in all these projects, with sponsors that in their own communities are providing opportunities for Canadians that would not exist if that party were in power. We know that for sure.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, if the partners would prevent the problem, the problem would not exist. Verbal assurances from this minister will just not cut it.

When a department official accidentally sent incriminating evidence to the member for Madawaska—Restigouche, the official phoned trying to get that member of parliament to destroy the document. Grant lists have been produced and altered depending on who requests them. Has the human resources minister not taken steps to protect documents because she wants to be able to reserve the right to alter them?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me just say that the premise of the hon. member's question is absolutely false. We have a strong plan that is going to fix this problem that has been supported by the auditor general and by outside experts. My job is to ensure this issue is fixed, and I will do that.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister has reduced to 37 cases and $251 the serious administrative mess at the Department of Human Resources Development. The audit that brought the whole matter to light examined 459 of 30,000 files in the department.

Will the Prime Minister not acknowledge that, instead of putting the lid on the pot at Human Resources Development Canada, he should, in an effort to save his government's honour, if such is possible, order a full inquiry by the auditor general of the rest of the department, on the remaining and unaudited 29,541 files?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the auditor general has a mandate to analyze all files at all times.

In the past, the auditor general could report only once a year. To permit him and the government to act quickly, he can now report every four months. He indicated that he was currently reviewing all grant programs in all departments. We encourage him to continue his work.

I want to tell you that more files have been completed, 14 in all—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister keeps trying to reduce the number of problem cases at Human Resources Development Canada to 37.

How can he simplify things this way, when Wal-Mart, whose managers even said they were surprised at the total lack of control by Human Resources Development Canada, is not among the 37 cases? How many similar files are there among the 30,000 other files in the department?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member gives me the opportunity to convey to the House that indeed we have closed 14 of the 37 cases that he makes reference to. Again, the overpayments have come to a total of $251.50.

Having said that, I also want to bring the hon. member's attention to the plan of action we are implementing that will review all the active files that have been part and parcel of the grants and contributions. I say again we have a strategy that has been supported by the auditor general and we are going to implement it.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, while the human resources minister is in a serious conflict of interest, we have already seen her attempts to cover up her billion dollar bungle—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. You are going a bit far with the statement. I ask the hon. member to proceed to the question.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is obvious that the human resources minister and her officials have a free hand to take a look at these files and there are no safeguards guaranteed.

I am going to ask the attorney general what assurances she can give Canadians that these files and their integrity will be protected so we can get to the truth lying behind this scandal.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, we are implementing a strategy that is going to ensure the integrity of our program. We have made commitments to convey to the Canadian public the results of our ongoing work.

As the Prime Minister indicated, the auditor general will be reviewing grants and contributions for my department and others, and he will be making his report. Those are the kinds of open and transparent methods that the Canadian public can rely on.

[Grant McNally, Reform, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister's plan does not have any requirement to answering questions in the House.

In any normal investigation suspects are denied access to incriminating evidence. In this case the human resources minister and her officials have a free hand to alter, destroy or fabricate documents. Canadians will never get to the bottom of the billion dollar bungle in this case.

I will ask the attorney general again what assurance she can give Canadians that the integrity of these files will be maintained so that we can get to the truth lying behind this scandal.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member is making criminal accusations, it is his duty to make a charge. He is trying to insinuate that people are voluntarily destroying documents. He implied that they are going against the obligations of all citizens to respect the Criminal Code of Canada.

If he has any precise accusations, he should make them and not try to use innuendo because he has no proof.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as regards the scandal at Human Resources Development Canada, the Prime Minister keeps trying to minimize the damage by reducing to 37 the number of delinquent files.

How can the Prime Minister downplay the problem in such a way, considering that, in his riding, a $1.2 million subsidy was awarded to Placeteco after it went bankrupt, but is not included in the 37 problem cases, even though the minister herself condemned the way that file was handled?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I want to say again to the House that these grants and contributions are found in ridings of all members of parliament, including those of the Bloc.

I would just like to say that in the context of the importance of these programs and their availability, the hon. member for Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques said:

“This proves that the myth that members of the opposition are unable to get anything for their ridings is false”.

[Christiane Gagnon, Bloc, Québec, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the other reason why the Prime Minister is trying to minimize the problem is that he wants to protect his deputy minister, Mel Cappe.

How can the Prime Minister justify that the main official responsible for this administrative mess at Human Resources Development Canada was promoted to the highest level job in the public service of this country? Does the Prime Minister not realize that, in the private sector, that fellow would have been fired, not promoted?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me remind the House again that this was an internal audit, an audit done by the department, its own series of checks and balances.

The information was provided to me as minister and we chose to act in a very strong manner. We have a strategy that is now being implemented and the problem will be rectified.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the human resource minister loves to crow about the transitional jobs fund going to the needy.

Consider these needy companies: Videotron, recently merged for $5.6 billion, got $2.5 million from this minister; RMH Teleservices, worth $80 billion, got $1.6 million from this minister. What about Wal-Mart, one of the world's largest companies—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member can begin his question again.

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I think I will just pick up with Wal-Mart, one of the world's largest companies, that benefited from this minister's largesse by $500,000.

My question is for the minister. Why does the human resource minister think that defending bonuses to large corporate companies, multibillion dollar companies, is more important than providing a health care budget for Canadians?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, we know that the Reform Party is only interested in money. What Reformers fail to appreciate is that these programs are focused on people. That is why working in partnership with private interests, with communities, we are creating jobs for individuals.

Members of the party over there say they would like to kill these programs, but yet, as I pointed out, individual members, the member for Skeena, the member for Nanaimo—Cowichan and even the member for Kootenay—Columbia, keep calling my office, saying “Can't you please hurry and approve the application?”

[Charlie Penson, Reform, Peace River, AB]

Mr. Speaker, what we are witnessing again today is another diversionary tactic by this minister.

Who are these needy people?