Debates of Feb. 23rd, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Saint-Maurice, QC]

We hope that the Leader of the Opposition is having a lot of success with his campaign aimed at destroying the Reform Party. I hope he is successful.

While he has been doing that, we have replied to all the questions. What started as a so-called problem with $3 billion ended with 37 cases. Of these 37 cases, 33 have been reviewed completely, and the money—

[The Speaker]

The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, one shows respect for taxpayers by meeting with them and answering their questions.

Taxpayers are wondering why the Prime Minister is afraid to talk to them about the gross mishandling of taxpayer dollars at HRD. Of course, if he did that and gave the pathetic and evasive non-answers to them that he gives in the House, Mr. Speaker, you would not be able to control the meeting. They would boo him off the stage.

I challenge the Prime Minister. If he is not afraid, when will he go out and hold a—

[The Speaker]

The Right Hon. Prime Minister.

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the best way to show respect to taxpayers is to come to work.

The government has given so much information that the level of documents transferred to members of all parties and to the press at the beginning of this week was the most open attempt to give information to everybody ever done in parliament.

[Preston Manning, Reform, Leader of the Opposition]

Mr. Speaker, angry taxpayers have another question for the Prime Minister, and it is one they would like an answer to.

The public knows that the Minister of Finance controls the flow of tax dollars to government departments. They also know now that during the very period the finance minister was slashing payments to health care, he was increasing funds to HRDC programs that were being grossly mismanaged.

Why did the Prime Minister not do anything to stop the finance minister from obviously misallocating hard earned taxpayer money?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the economic policies of the government have done a lot of good things.

We had 11.5% unemployment and it is down to 6.8%. We had a deficit of $42 billion and now, for the first time in 50 years, we have four surpluses in a row. When we started we had an 11% interest rate in Canada and now it is at 6%. I could go on and on and on explaining our economic policies.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister should be more concerned about the finance minister who has seen more chicken than the colonel on his leadership tour.

Every year the finance minister rubberstamps the billions of dollars that Minister of Human Resources Development has mismanaged. It is kind of interesting that the self-described good money manager has completely gone silent on his involvement in this very important issue.

Will the Prime Minister confirm the worst kept secret in Ottawa, that the finance minister is ashamed of his role in the billion dollar boondoggle?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, let us understand what this issue is all about. Absolutely the country requires sound financial management and we have provided it, but that is not the difference of opinion.

The difference of opinion is that the Reform Party does not believe that there is role for government in working with Kinsmen clubs, Richelieu clubs, Optimists clubs, Lions clubs and Rotary clubs. We believe there is a responsibility of the federal government to work with communities across the country, and we will continue to do so.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, you will notice that he was running away from the issue again. The usually talkative finance minister for some reason has avoided his usual prebudget interviews this year. I wonder why. I wonder if he is feeling okay. I hope so, but I guess it is a very good thing that a guilty conscience is not fatal.

My question is for the Prime Minister. Is not the real reason the finance minister has gone silent this year that he is very concerned he would be recognized as the sugar daddy behind these boondoggles?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member ought to know that the time to lay out the government's budgetary plans will be next Monday in the House when the budget is presented.

I announced a week ago that the budget would be next Monday. I can understand that not all members of the Reform Party would know that because, after all, the announcement was made in the House.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday we pointed out to the minister that important changes had been made to the lists provided by Human Resources Development Canada.

Now that she has had 24 hours to think and to check her department's lists, how does she explain that grant disbursement dates were left off these lists, when they appeared on the earlier lists?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday this hon. member called me a liar. Let us review the facts. We issued an unprecedented volume of information. We made it clear that the list may not, for technical reasons, be exactly the same as lists issued previously.

We want to answer the questions of Canadians and invite them to call us, to use our e-mail, to look at the website, and to use the members of parliament telephone line to get information.

This member is not interested in the facts. He is interested in hurling insults, and he should be ashamed.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I used a word because I could not think of a better one yesterday.

That having been said, I think that one of the ways of finding out what is going on in the department is to ask the minister. We see that grant disbursement dates sometimes preceded approval dates by as much as two years.

When this no longer appears on the so-called transparent lists, I no longer call that modification, but falsification. I ask the minister why the lists were falsified. What does she have to say.

[The Speaker]

We are using unacceptable language. I ask the hon. leader of the Bloc Quebecois to withdraw the work falsification.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I stand by modification and I withdraw falsification.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday that party's members talked about Hôtel du Boisé and they had their information wrong. Last week, they talked about the company Franc-Bois and they had their information wrong.

We now have a telephone line that they can use to get information on any of these projects. It has been very lightly used and that is why these questions are so poor.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has become a master of evasion, with her systematic avoidance of a response to a question that is so very simple.

This is a very serious matter. The documents have been falsified—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Vancouver East.

[An hon. member]

A supporter of the Liberals.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. member for Vancouver East.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, e-mail from the former deputy minister, Mel Cappe, to an HRDC staff person provides more information about the political nature of the disbursement of HRDC grants and contributions.

The former deputy minister clearly understands that ultimately the client is based on “a political choice”.

Why was the deputy minister willing to acknowledge the political nature of the disbursement of the grants and yet the minister is still in denial?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the member is referring to an e-mail that delves into speculation. I would strongly urge her to stick to the facts, and certainly I would advise her to rise above following the simple minded agenda of a failed provincial NDP candidate from the Kenora—Rainy River area.