Debates of Feb. 25th, 2000

The Budget

[Jim Gouk, Reform, West Kootenay—Okanagan, BC]

Mr. Speaker, Monday is budget day. Canadians will see some tax relief from one hand, while the other hand takes it back with new taxes.

Reform's solution 17 proposal would reduce taxes to a single flat rate of 17%; real tax relief which would remove two million low income Canadians from the tax rolls.

Opponents claim that our plan would slash needed social programs. This is nothing more than fearmongering by those who want to keep our taxes higher than they need to be.

By reducing wasteful government spending Canadians could have these tax breaks and rebuild underfunded social programs at the same time.

A case in point is VIA Rail. VIA Rail exists only through the provision of huge government subsidies, subsidies which the government is now proposing to increase to $500,000 a day.

The private sector has already taken over former VIA Rail money losing operations, which now operate without subsidies. They pay taxes, they bring in tourist dollars and provide unsubsidized jobs for Canadians.

It is time for the government to stop its wasteful spending habits and provide real tax relief to Canadians.

Canadian Forces Supply Depot

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Toronto Centre—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to draw attention to the fact that the 25th Canadian Forces Supply Depot, located in Montreal, has been successful in obtaining international certification for the quality of its environmental management system.

It had already earned international certification for its processes, and now it is one of a select group of Canadian organizations meeting both of these important international standards.

The 25th Depot is the largest military logistics centre in Canada and warehouses more than 2,000 hazardous products. Thanks to the efforts of staff and management, the Depot has developed an appropriate environmental management system, based on hazardous goods monitoring, staff training and adherence to legal requirements.

We congratulate the staff of the 25th Supply Depot on obtaining this certification.

Human Resources Development

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we have obtained documents that show that the Prime Minister's office and the human resources minister's office were both intimately involved in the renewal of an HRDC grant to Les Confections Saint-Élie.

These documents outline a meeting between Denise Tremblay of the PMO and Robert Theriault of the HRD minister's office. That meeting discussed whether or not an HRDC grant should be renewed for that textile company in spite of the fact that the company did not reach its agreed upon job targets.

Why were both the Prime Minister's Office and the human resources minister's office so personally involved in this particular case?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I do not have the information on this specific project. I would be happy to try to get it for the hon. member. I am confident that any of the allegations made by the hon. member suggesting some improprieties are not well-founded. If he wants to place similar questions again, I will ask the parliamentary secretary if she has information that she can provide to the House at this time.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we will be happy to provide the information for the deputy prime minister.

Yesterday the human resources minister argued that a textile manufacturer moved from a city with a textile industry to a city with a fountain industry because it could not find a location in Montreal. An hour later the president of the numbered company contradicted her. He said that it was not because they could not find a location in Montreal, but rather, that the move was made for business reasons.

Did the Prime Minister's special support of Les Confections Saint-Élie have anything to do with the moving of jobs from Rosemont to Shawinigan?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the House that HRDC officials are looking into this matter. If any irregularity has taken place, HRDC will take the appropriate action.

The company's decision to relocate was a business decision and it had every right to make that decision as 75% of the total investment was its private money.

[Jay Hill, Reform, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, 25% was not.

A no name textile company applies for a grant in Montreal. It ends up in the Prime Minister's riding, a place not exactly famous for its textile industry. Now there are questions about whether or not 3393062 ever actually set up a textile plant.

Why were high level staff from the PMO and the HRD minister's office so personally involved in decisions of this nature?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, this is a very strange comment for a member from a party which has an ongoing love affair with the private sector.

We in the government believe we have a role in participating in the creation of economic opportunity for people, particularly in areas of high unemployment. We are building the workforce for the 21st century and we will continue to participate with private sector partners who are willing to leverage our money.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is the taxpayers who are concerned about where their money is being spent.

We know there was a meeting on September 2 involving a top local HRD official, the minister's own assistant and the Prime Minister's assistant. We know they met to give funding to Les Confections Saint-Élie, which had fallen 25% short of its job creation commitments as required under the TJF.

Why did the minister and the Prime Minister pressure the local HRD official to make a payment contrary to the signed TJF agreement?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is making a totally unwarranted allegation when she uses the word pressure. I challenge her to get up and show proof of pressure. If she does not have it, and I do not think she has, she should withdraw those unwarranted allegations.

[Val Meredith, Reform, South Surrey—White Rock—Langley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we are also interested in what else the Prime Minister's assistant, who is known for interfering in TJF projects, talked about at that meeting. We know a new request for funding came for Les Confections Saint-Élie a month after HRDC had broken the rules and had approved the final payment for that initial grant.

Did Les Confections Saint-Élie receive any further funding from HRDC as a result of that meeting?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I will have to get back to the member on that particular question. I do not know if the contract was amended.

However, I do know that TJF had 30,000 projects across the country and they have a 95% success rate, which is better than the private sector working in the open market. Statistics Canada reports that of the start-ups of new businesses, only 77% are still alive after their first birth date.

Our success rate with our partnerships of government and the private sector are actually more successful than those in the private sector alone.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I received additional information on this unbelievable matter concerning the ridings of Saint-Maurice and Rosemont.

For one thing, the file was not transferred to Shawinigan, but remained in Montreal. On March 5, 1998, the owner of the company met with officials from Human Resources Development Canada, in Montreal, and told them that the premises located at 5800 Saint-Denis Street were no longer available and that he was looking in other regions of Quebec, including Beauce, to get closer to the American border. As we know, that person's company ended up in the riding of Saint-Maurice, in Shawinigan.

Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm these facts?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I cannot confirm what the hon. member claims to be facts. Are these facts or his own suppositions?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister will soon be in a position to differentiate between facts and suppositions, and I can hardly wait.

He will admit that the businessman who decided to get closer to the U.S. border by going to Shawinigan is definitely not good in geography.

On March 15, 1998, 3393062 Canada Inc. signed a lease with Confections Saint-Élie Inc. By the way, the name of that company sounds familiar. Oh yes, it is located in the Prime Minister's riding.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister confirm these facts?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the questions being posed by the Bloc Quebecois members suggest that they do not understand the history of the area of Shawinigan nor the history of the textile industry in the country. Shawinigan has long been a textile centre and it is perfectly logical.

The other thing is that it is not always wise to second guess the business decisions of our private sector partners, whether they be private sector or non-profit organizations. The genius of this country is that we accept and promote the ideas of local entrepreneurs to create economic activity because we are building—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Rosemont.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, let us continue this little horror story.

The company started its business by creating five jobs. On March 19, 1998, it invoiced HRDC for the five jobs. On April 14, 1998, the firm was paid the amount of $165,984 for the 42 jobs it was to create.

Can the Deputy Prime Minister confirm these facts?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I want to inform members that we have 30,000 projects under grants and contributions. We know not everything will be perfect, but when we hear of any irregularities we will research them. If we find any kind of bad behaviour it will be referred to the police.

Members will always find a way to pick a scab. Even though 95% of the projects are in good hands and Canadian taxpayer money is well invested, they will continue to pick the scab of the few they can find that may have some problems or do have problems. However, we will refer the problem ones to the police.

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, how can the parliamentary secretary refuse to confirm these facts, when I talked yesterday with assistant deputy minister Danielle Vincent, who confirmed them.

My question is unchanged: where is the money?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to comment on a private telephone conversation from yesterday. I am not privy to the ideas of that conversation and therefore I cannot comment. However, I assure the House that the officials are reviewing this file and if anything is untoward it will be referred to the police.

Health Care

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Health.

The other day in the House the minister said that more than money would be required to fix health care. We certainly all agree with him on that. There is a need for reform.

However, the reality of the situation is that more money is required as well. More money must be delivered on Monday when the budget comes down in order to restore the 50:50 federal-provincial partnership if the minister wants to have the moral high ground again and if he wants to be able to work with his provincial counterparts, as he says he wants to do.

Will there be significantly more money put back into health care on Monday in the budget?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, the budget will be tabled on Monday, but let us look at what the government has done over the last two to three years. When all other programs were being reduced, we restored and increased the transfers to the provinces for health. The Prime Minister, in his letter to the premiers following their February 3 meeting, said that careful consideration would be given to the priorities expressed by premiers.

I urge the member to wait until Monday. I also urge the member to urge his provincial counterparts in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and B.C. to work with us toward medicare renewal in the months ahead.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I was here when the Canada Health Act was passed. When the government laid down the rules for medicare in the Canada Health Act, it was contributing a heck of a lot more money to medicare than it is today on a percentage basis.

Does the minister not acknowledge the need to get back to a 50:50 relationship between the federal government and the provinces if he wants to show the kind of leadership in reforming and saving medicare that he claims he wants to do? He is going to have to do that. When will that be done? Is he committed to doing it?

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge that the Government of Canada has to do its part. Not only is this the right thing to do, and the money is needed, but over time the Government of Canada will not be in a position to enforce the principles of the Canada Health Act unless it has a presence in the system. That is why, under the Prime Minister's leadership, we committed significant additional money last year to health transfers to the provinces. As we said at the time, more will be done as our balance sheet improves.

I agree with the hon. member. I urge him and his counterparts to work with us to renew medicare into the future.