Debates of Feb. 25th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Rosemont was told by the assistant deputy minister of Human Resources Development Canada that the entire grant of $165,984 was paid to Mr. Goldberger's company on April 14, 1998. Yet this same deputy minister admits that only five jobs had been created by that date.

Can the Deputy Prime Minister tell us whether it is routine practice for this government to distribute the full amount of grants even before jobs have been created?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the questions that are coming forth from the Bloc Quebecois today contain levels of detail for which I would have a fulsome answer, provided they had the courtesy of giving me these details ahead of question period.

[Stéphan Tremblay, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I will put a more general question to the Deputy Prime Minister, or other delegated ministers, or perhaps the Minister for International Trade could answer.

Is what we have here not proof of the practices fit for the dark ages that the Minister of Human Resources Development condemned when she first took up her post?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, it is well known that one of the longstanding conventions, based on longstanding precedents of this House, is that only the present minister comments on matters having to do with a department.

[Ken Epp, Reform, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the finance minister who arranges our tax levels is the final banker. He is the trustee of the money that taxpayers are obligated to pay. Canadians are looking to him to oversee the money management of the government.

Yesterday the Deputy Prime Minister said:

—the Minister of Finance has stated his support for the programs administered by the HRD department—

Since the finance minister supports the human resources minister even after the billion dollar boondoggle, how much would she have to lose before he withdrew that support and showed Canadians they could trust him?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the stewardship of the Minister of Finance on behalf of the entire government of the finances of the government is proven by the fact that he eliminated, together with all of us, the $42 billion deficit left to us by the Conservatives.

He has back to back balanced budgets, back to back surpluses, low interest rates and low inflation. That is fine stewardship and it goes much further than the empty rhetoric of the hon. member.

[John Williams, Reform, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, listen to this for stewardship. The minister of HRDC said that she took action when she became aware that her department was in the dark ages in the management of grants and contributions.

Last spring the auditor general reported on a $1.9 billion TAGS program: 34% did not contain any proposal, 26% had no clear objectives and one-third did not meet the criteria under which they had been approved. I could go on.

Why did the minister wait until this January, almost a whole year, before she took action on this mismanagement and incompetence?

[Bonnie Brown, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is the first one to admit that there are problems within the department in grants and contributions administration.

She has come forward with the action plan to address these issues. That action plan has been suggested and reviewed by outside specialists. Currently it is being reviewed or will be started to be reviewed by the human resources development standing committee.

We are trying to fix the problems. Picking at the scabs that can be produced by looking through these files is not helping anyone.

Cinar

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Verchères, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in connection with the CINAR affair, which now admits to fraud, after public denunciation and a new investigation, yesterday in this House the Minister of National Revenue indicated that his voluntary disclosure program might apply.

My question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. Are we to understand that the government is preparing to grant CINAR the right to make use of that program, thus providing this affair with a first class funeral?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, no, quite the contrary. The honourable member is well aware of the existence of a voluntary disclosure program.

Besides, we are not of course allowed to comment on individual returns. The Bloc Quebecois ought to be able to understand very clearly why the contents of individual returns ought not to be disclosed.

International Trade

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister for International Trade.

With the increase in our small and medium businesses' activity abroad, could the minister tell us whether Canada is really benefiting from the opening up of international markets?

[Pierre Pettigrew, Liberal, Minister for International Trade]

Mr. Speaker, I draw the attention of this House today to the fact that the opening up of markets benefits all, and certainly Canada.

For example, last year, our exports increased by nearly 12%, and our imports by 7.7%. The Government of Canada is working tirelessly to have the international system based on clear rules so our SMBs may enjoy greater access to the markets, as they create longstanding and quality jobs.

This also means a better quality of life for Canadians. Hats off to Canada's small and medium business—

[The Speaker]

The hon. member for Prince Albert.

Human Resources Development

[Derrek Konrad, Reform, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Speaker, the government is sending its top bureaucrats, including those from HRDC, to the all-inclusive P.A. Douglas seminar in Banff. On the agenda in between the wining and dining are such riveting topics as “How to Say Goodbye”, our wish for the minister.

How can the minister justify this expense? What will HRDC bureaucrats be learning, how to say goodbye to more taxpayers' dollars?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member did not give us any notice of this question on a detailed specific matter. However, I will take note of the question, consult with the minister and get back to him on the real facts as soon as possible.

[Jim Pankiw, Reform, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, based on the billion dollar waste scandal, it is apparent that HRDC officials did not gain any managerial wisdom at last year's luxurious retreat in Banff. This year an agenda item is “Getting People to Like You”.

If the minister and her officials want people to like them, they do not need a seminar. They need to stop their irresponsible and wasteful spending at HRDC. Why does the minister make it so difficult for people to like her?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if there is a seminar on getting people to like you, that explains where the Leader of the Opposition must be today.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. We should not say whether one member is here or not on any given day.

Health Care

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, all week and today included the government has suggested that it has restored the cuts it took out in 1995. That statement is a distortion of the facts and it does a great disservice—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. Let us go easy. It is not out of order, but you are getting close.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

My apologies, Mr. Speaker. Let me just say that it obscures the facts and does a disservice to Canadians.

The facts are the government cut the cash to health care. Cash transfer payments are the glue that holds the national health care system together. When cash drops so low, the government loses the moral authority to enforce the Canada Health Act. We are still short $4.3 billion in cash.

My question is simple and straightforward. On Monday will the government put back the cash it took out of health care?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member wants to be informative and tell the whole story, why does she not give the facts on the value of the tax points in billions of dollars for health care and the value of equalization? Without that, her answer is incomplete. Because of your ruling, Mr. Speaker, I cannot say misleading, but at the very least it is incomplete.

[The Speaker]

More than that, you cannot even say that you are not going to say misleading.