House of Commons Hansard #45 of the 36th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was industry.
Monte Solberg Reform Medicine Hat, AB
Mr. Speaker, the minister just said she knew about the mess in HRDC on November 17, but on December 16 she still denied there were any problems. She told the House and the Canadian people something that was absolutely and completely false. She attempted to cover-up a billion dollar boondoggle. That is something that—
Human Resources DevelopmentOral Question Period
The Speaker
Order, please. We seem to be escalating the rhetoric, even deliberately misleading. I will not permit that again. He never said the minister was false, but I would like the members to please stay away from these words because they only agitate the House.
Monte Solberg Reform Medicine Hat, AB
Mr. Speaker, the public is very agitated too at the fact that a billion dollars has gone missing and this minister is responsible for trying to cover it up.
When is the minister going to admit that she has told the Canadian people and the House of Commons something that is simply not the case and that she has betrayed the public trust?
Jane Stewart LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development
Mr. Speaker, it would seem to me that the only party misleading Canadians is the Reform Party.
Human Resources DevelopmentOral Question Period
The Speaker
Order, please. It is very difficult for me to hear what anyone is saying when there is so much noise. I appeal to you, my colleagues. I did not hear what the minister said. I would ask all hon. members to please stay away from those words today. It simply inflames us and I do not think we will get the quality of questions or answers we want in question period.
The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.
Jane Stewart Liberal Brant, ON
Mr. Speaker, it is the Reform Party that keeps suggesting to Canadians that a billion dollars has gone missing. It knows that is not true. We know where the cheques have gone. They have gone to organizations in the ridings of those members and all others in the House.
It is that party that is continuing to undermine the important work that the grants and contributions program does for communities across the country.
Monte Solberg Reform Medicine Hat, AB
Mr. Speaker, the minister's evasiveness does not change the hard facts.
The Minister of Human Resources Development claims she was briefed on that billion dollars on November 17. On December 16 she told this place that there were no problems in HRDC. Obviously there is a big contradiction there.
Why did the minister tell the House something that simply was not the case? Why did she tell the Canadian people that? Why is she betraying the public trust?
Jane Stewart LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development
Mr. Speaker, I stand by my words in the House. If they choose to read Hansard , they will see that the questions were about specific projects. I was always forthcoming when there were indications of administrative problems.
Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Mr. Speaker, an internal audit report on Human Resources Canada indicates, based on a sampling of 459 out of 30,000 files, or 1.5% of all the department's files, that there are problems relating to applications from promoters, application approvals, and financial monitoring.
Is the Prime Minister going to acknowledge that these 459 cases everyone is referring to are merely a sampling of the 30,000 files and that, applying the auditors' logic to the whole lot, we end up with thousands of irregular files?
Jean Chrétien LiberalPrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely normal for any professional audit to turn up things that need correcting, in any organization. That is why city governments and the private sector have auditing systems. They have to see whether the documents are present as required, and if shortcomings are found, they are corrected.
Take, for example, specific cases in which the auditors found problems. On a total amount of about $12 million, they found two problems in seven files, and an overpayment of $251.50.
Paul Crête Bloc Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister does not seem to realize that by applying the auditors' logic to all Human Resources Development files, the amounts involved add up to between $1 million and $3 million.
What is the Prime Minister waiting for before he calls for a public and independent audit of the department's management?
Jean Chrétien LiberalPrime Minister
Mr. Speaker, my reply once again is that we have our internal auditors and they have done their jobs. We have the auditor general, who does his job. Yesterday or the day before, he indicated in a letter that he accepted the department's proposal. As well, the auditor general can report to the House four times a year now, rather than once a year as before.
Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB
Mr. Speaker, the minister's own departmental audit uncovered about $1 billion in mismanaged HRDC grants and contributions. But this is just the tip of the iceberg.
The Canadian Aerospace Group International Inc. received $1 million from the transitional jobs fund to establish Panda Aircraft in North Bay, Ontario. When Panda ceased operations, the North Bay development group got its money back.
I would like to know about the Canadian taxpayers. Did they get their money back?
Human Resources DevelopmentOral Question Period
February 9th, 2000 / 2:35 p.m.
Brant Ontario
Liberal
Jane Stewart LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development
Mr. Speaker, the hon. member speaks of individual projects. There will be projects in the course of these undertakings that are more beneficial than others.
As I have said before, as minister my job is to look at the overall impact that the transitional jobs fund has had. Again I say, 30,000 people, who were not working before, are working as a result of that program.
Dale Johnston Reform Wetaskiwin, AB
Mr. Speaker, that is all very nice, but I submit it is also her duty to get the money back that Canadian taxpayers put in after an industry fails.
I have just given one example of 60,000 HRDC files. Access to information requests reveal that there are many other files under investigation.
Will the minister tell us just how many other files are under investigation? I would like to know how many other Pandas there are out there.
Jane Stewart LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development
Mr. Speaker, if the hon. member would just take the time to read the plan that we are implementing, he would see that we are going to review all our active files.
Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC
Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is trying to anesthetize us in this House by saying, on the basis of an audit of a few hundred cases, that they will not do it again, they made mistakes, they apologize and that is the end of it.
It is only a sample of 1.5% of the 30,000 cases. Everyone is agreed that it is serious, very serious.
How can the Prime Minister be trying to anesthetize everyone with his promise not do it again, when there are thousands of unaudited cases, cases that have not been examined and probably reflect the same percentages as the initial cases, that is, having an error rate of 80%.
Jane Stewart LiberalMinister of Human Resources Development
Mr. Speaker, we do not know from what the hon. member is trying to extrapolate. We are reviewing—
Jane Stewart Liberal Brant, ON
Mr. Speaker, if he would pay attention he would know that we are reviewing the 37 files, as the Prime Minister has said. We will make the results of those reviews public and then we will see what the circumstances are.
I would also add that besides that review, the six point plan ensures that we look at all active files and that will, I am convinced, help us prepare a quality system that will fix this problem.
Michel Gauthier Bloc Roberval, QC
Mr. Speaker, what sort of credibility does this minister enjoy as she tries to save her skin and says they are preparing to start from scratch? Everyone knows that in an audit a sample will reveal how well things are going in a department. What they discovered is that things are going very badly in her department.
Why did the President of the Treasury Board say that things were very serious and give directions to all departments if things were not serious and all was well at the Department of Human Resources Development?
Lucienne Robillard LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure
Mr. Speaker, the mark of a good government is its knowing how to deal with a problem.
What do we do? We identify the problem, its nature and its scope. The minister has done that. We also develop a plan of action to remedy the department's problems. The minister has done that.
In addition, we ensure that there is follow up to be sure the procedure underway will remedy the problems discovered. This is exactly what my colleague at Human Resources Development has done.