Debates of March 1st, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

The Prime Minister was absolutely right when he looked at the internal audit and identified that there were 37 projects out of that audit that needed closer review.

We identified overpayments in the area of $5,900, and I am pleased to inform the House that the majority of that has now been returned to the government.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in this case obviously the Prime Minister was not telling the House the entire truth about the situation.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I ask members to please stay away from statements like that. It would help us all.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister was not telling Canadians the entire story. We had a situation where on February 2 he said that he contacted the RCMP about this investigation. On February 9 he denied that there were problems except for $251.

How can Canadians have any confidence at all in the Prime Minister and what he says when he withholds his story about an RCMP investigation in his riding that could have an implication on millions of dollars of taxpayer money?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I can only say that this member, led by the king of Stornoway—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. I think we should call ourselves by our proper titles and not get into nicknames.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Of course you are right, Mr. Speaker, my point being they are completely out of touch with the people.

Canadians understand what this issue is about. They have separated the politics from the substance. They know that it is not about waste. They know where the money is, and Canadians are wondering why that party over there is not spending time on the issues.

[Monte Solberg, Reform, Medicine Hat, AB]

Mr. Speaker, obviously the minister is very desperate. We have a situation where we have two separate criminal investigations in the Prime Minister's riding, a forensic audit.

Now we see that the Prime Minister has completely contradicted himself saying on February 2 that he contacted the RCMP about a serious situation and on February 9 in the House saying that there was absolutely no problem, it was only $251. Why would the Prime Minister tell Canadians something in the House which was exactly the wrong story, exactly not the case?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the person who is telling the wrong story is the finance critic for the Reform Party because the Prime Minister was referring to the progress on the further inquiry into the 37 cases, cases for further inquiry taken from the 459 in the sample audit.

The case the hon. member is referring to is not one of those 37 cases. They are two separate matters, and the hon. member should admit it or agree that he does not know what he is talking about on this and on anything else. No wonder he does not have any questions on the budget. He does not know what he is talking about on that either.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I believe there are limits to what the government and the minister ought to do.

The Prime Minister claims not to know Mr. Perreault, despite the fact that he was in the PM's 1997 householder. The Prime Minister says the file was not transferred to Saint-Maurice, but the Deputy Minister confirms that it was transferred on April 9, 1998 and the grant paid out on April 14, 1998.

How can the minister not be aware of this?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, what I want to ensure is that I have all the correct facts, and before I make further comment on this file I will have the correct facts.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Minister has confirmed that there are invoices from the company for the creation of five jobs.

No matter how the calculation is done, there is no justification for subsidizing the creation of five jobs for $165,984, or $33,000 per job.

Can the minister tell us where this money went?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I say again that we are looking into this file and we will have the appropriate facts; but let us not forget that as a result of this program, supported by the Government of Quebec, we have made a real difference in the lives of Quebecers in all the Bloc ridings, whether it be through general grants and contributions or whether it be through the transitional jobs fund and the Canada jobs fund.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, even the sketchy list of grants the HRD minister finally released last week has serious gaps in reliability. Fortunately we had a complete list for one of the programs obtained before the audit came to light and the government went into damage control mode.

When we compared the two a number of troubling discrepancies came to light. In several cases projects showed up in different ridings and some had even been deleted. Could the minister explain why her list does not square with the one provided under an act of parliament?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, as was made abundantly clear when we issued the 10,000 projects so that members of parliament could know where the investments were being made in their ridings, this list was not a master list because there was never a master list. We have brought information from seven different data bases in order to comply with a request from members.

When we look at these lists we do find projects in the ridings of this member and the members in that party. I would like to know, when they talk about waste, which of those projects they would have cancelled.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, surely the minister is not suggesting that her lists are so unreliable that they cannot be depended on when she hands them out. Here is just one example.

The list we obtained under access legislation shows that three projects received grants in the riding of Madawaska—Restigouche held by the Liberals at the time, but the minister's list assigns these same projects to other ridings even though they are still in Madawaska—Restigouche. One is a college. Are the minister's lists simply unreliable, or have they been deliberately tampered with?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

That question, as it is phrased, is in order and I am going to permit the minister to answer.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I reject the allegations made by the hon. member. If she has particular questions on the list we will be glad to answer them, as we have always said.

Let us look at some of the projects in the city of Calgary.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Speaker]

Order, please. The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Mr. Speaker, that party talks about these projects being wasteful. Does the hon. member think that it was a waste to support the United Farmers of Alberta so that they could have a young person helping them and working with them on important projects? Does she think it was a waste to support the Developmental Disabilities Resource Centre of Calgary with a computer literacy training project assisted by a—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.