Debates of March 16th, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister thinks being a good MP means giving his own riding more money than the entire province of Manitoba, Saskatchewan or Alberta. Fancy that. His interference with HRD grants and contributions is precisely what the HRD officials are complaining about.

Now another briefing document that we have dealing with trust funds in the Prime Minister's riding says “it would appear that this section of the Financial Administration Act was not respected”. That is an admission of guilt. Why were the police not called in?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is talking about the investments made in the Prime Minister's riding. Total grants and contributions during the period of time that we were talking about was somewhere in the area of $20 million.

Let us look at some of the Reform ridings. Let us look at North Vancouver: $21 million. Let us look at Kelowna: $39 million. Edmonton East: $45 million. Is the hon. member saying that those ridings did not deserve those investments?

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, she might have just separated out the actual TJF grants. None of these people were involved in fancy dealings either to get somebody on board to help them out.

The minister gave us her opinion yesterday which probably a few people appreciated but not many. Not only does her department refer to widespread disregard for the law but so does this new briefing note we have. Let me quote from it again. “It would appear that this section of the Financial Administration Act was not respected”. Her department thought the law had been broken. It realized it.

Was it the Prime Minister's involvement that kept the police from being called in on this?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is referring to draft documents. Yesterday they were talking about questions and answers that were prepared by the department's communications officials. They were hypothetical questions that were never asked. They were hypothetical answers that were never given.

The employees in the Department of Human Resources Development have never been instructed not to uphold the law.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, well let me assure her that even draft recognizes graft. It is shameful that the minister continues to say—

[The Deputy Speaker]

I could not tell whether the hon. member said draft or graft. I assume she said draft and I hope that that is the case. I know she will want to continue with her question.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let me quote again from the minister's own documents. They are not hypothetical. They said, “We were told to be flexible and responsive and not to lapse funds. Now we are being told we have to obey the Financial Administration Act”. How about this one, “The rules are not new. They are just being enforced now”. How about this one, “It would appear that this section of the Financial Administration Act was not respected”.

The evidence is here regardless of whether she would just hope that it is a draft or not. I would like to ask the hypothetical minister—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Not only is the member for Edmonton North using inappropriate language, she has run out of time. The hon. minister may reply to the allegations contained in the preamble if she wishes.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the Reform Party just continues with Reform mythology. First of all Reformers told Canadians that $3 billion was missing. That is not true. Why do they not admit that? Then they said $1 billion was missing. That is not true. Why do they not say that?

What is true is that a department looked at itself, found that it could improve its administrative practices and is doing just that.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister is always anxious to respond to allegations we have not made. How about some that are clearly before the House?

Yesterday the minister refused to answer direct questions about her department's practice of violating the Financial Administration Act. Today we have additional documents showing the minister received clear advice that the Financial Administration Act was not being respected.

I ask the minister again, why was her own government department not obeying the law of the land?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I reject the accusations of the hon. member.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

That is great, honey, but they are not arguments.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Brant, ON]

Let us recognize what the hon. member for Edmonton North said. Yesterday she was talking about girls. Today she is calling me honey. To quote a dear friend of mine, I am certainly not your honey.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am sure there are not many honeys in the House. The hon. member for Calgary—Nose Hill.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the minister may think this is a big yuk, but I can assure you that Canadians do not.

We have a treasury board document that also advised the minister, “One cannot create a trust fund within the CRF”, that means public money, “nor can one try to get around it through a shell game by using a so-called trustee”. That is exactly what her department did in the Prime Minister's riding. An act of parliament was violated but what did the minister do? She just shrugged and said “Oh, that was inappropriate”.

Did the minister turn a blind eye because this was in the Prime Minister's riding?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I have spoken on a number of occasions about the trust funds that the hon. member is making reference to. In fact I agreed that it was not administratively correct for the employee in question to have created those trust funds. But the employee of the department did it in all good faith to try to assist people getting jobs.

If the hon. member wants to suggest that the trust funds were created and that someone gained personally from them, then let her bring that fact and that information to the floor and we will deal with it that way.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Prime Minister admitted that René Fugère had represented him on one or two occasions. A little effort to remember and especially a letter from his own office did the trick.

I therefore ask the Deputy Prime Minister whether he can confirm that it was once or twice, or might it have been more like three, five or perhaps ten times?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the important thing is that René Fugère was never an employee of the Prime Minister.

The Prime Minister's spokesperson even confirmed this in the National Post last May when he said that Mr. Fugère was an active member of the Liberal riding association who, in the past, had sometimes served as a volunteer and represented the Prime Minister at certain events, and that that was all.

And that is all, Mr. Speaker.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister seems to like letters. I will read him part of one:

I confirm that I have met with René Fugère on several occasions since my election as the member for Saint-Maurice in 1994. Mr. Fugère took part in numerous activities as the representative for the federal member for Saint-Maurice, the Prime Minister of Canada. This is public knowledge—

This is signed by Claude Pinard, MNA for Saint-Maurice—the member mentioned PQ MNAs, so we are obliging—and deputy speaker of the National Assembly.

Does this not contradict the Prime Minister's version, and is the government not rather concerned about Mr. Fugère's activities in the PMO?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, I see no contradiction, because René Fugère was never an employee of the Prime Minister.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, yesterday, the Prime Minister acknowledged with our help that René Fugère had represented him a number of times. He was not paid, of course; he works on commission. It would really be beyond all if he had two salaries.

Will the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledge that when René Fugère, a man very close to the Prime Minister, who represents him everywhere, intervenes with Human Resources Canada, he has impact, almost like that of political intervention?

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member is mistaken in suggesting that Mr. Fugère represented the Prime Minister, after making certain enquiries.

I believe that when Mr. Fugère did represent him it was without pay and not as an employee of the Prime Minister, as I have just said.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Deputy Prime Minister can say what he likes, everyone in the riding of Saint-Maurice, it is common knowledge, knows that René Fugère regularly represents the Prime Minister.

I have understood one thing, though. In the last election, the Prime Minister said, and I quote “When something involving Saint-Maurice ends up in a minister's office—I need not say more”. He should have said “When something involving Saint-Maurice ends up in a minister's office—I need not say more. René Fugère will attend to it personally”.

[Herb Gray, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Prime Minister I totally reject the unfounded insinuations of the hon. member.