Debates of March 21st, 2000

Supply

[Bernard Bigras, Bloc, Rosemont, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I really appreciated the remarks by my colleague from Vancouver East. I would like to draw her attention to the internal audit report, which indicated very clearly the carelessness this government has shown in managing the transitional jobs fund.

When the internal audit report shows that there was no indication of supervision in 87% of the projects, no indication of financial control in 80% of them and no indication that the expected results were obtained in 75% of them, there is a problem. I could go on, because the internal audit report speaks volumes on the matter.

My question to the member for Vancouver East is very simple: In light of these conclusions, does the internal audit report not indicate more than ever that an independent public commission of inquiry has to be set up right away?

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question from my hon. colleague. Just to reiterate and affirm, we in the NDP see two basic problems. One of the reasons we need to have a public inquiry is because of the serious administrative problems that were uncovered by the audit, such as the lack of follow-through, applications not being filled out adequately, lack of monitoring and so on. The results of the internal audit make it abundantly clear that the implications for the government as a whole are enormous. If this is happening in HRDC, where else is this taking place? For that very reason alone, an independent public inquiry is required.

I would also stress that the political nature of the decision making is something that is very serious. It is more difficult to get at but it also needs to be part of that inquiry. We support the motion on that basis.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to rise today on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party to take part in this very important debate. Canadians have many questions about what went on at Human Resources Development Canada.

It is certainly a pleasure to enter into the debate today because we still have many questions that are unanswered. The government has tried to downplay what has happened in HRDC. Not too long ago the Prime Minister got up in the House and said that it was only 250 some odd dollars. I said what did we do? Was that a mistake? Obviously, on our part, it was not. Something went terribly wrong in HRDC and something went terribly wrong with the administration of public funds.

When it all started about six or seven weeks ago, this was supposed to go away really quickly. This was supposed to be buried underneath the carpet. It would take a couple of days and we would not hear any more questions on HRDC.

The department first started auditing the grants and contributions programs in 1999 and it came up with a report in January 2000. We certainly were not aware that there was an audit going on. It did well in keeping us in the dark. When the department released it, as critic for HRDC for my party, I called for a copy of the audit so I could go over it and review what had gone on with HRDC and the grants and contributions programs.

When I called for my copy, I received it. Maybe 10 minutes later I received a call from HRDC to tell me that it had sent me the wrong cover sheet and if I would be so kind to destroy the cover sheet, it would send me a new one. La-di-da, I still have the original cover sheet on my desk today. I did not destroy it. Is that not a shame? I received the second cover sheet. I do not want to use the sheets as a prop, so I will not put up the cover sheets. When I look at the both of them, the original one is dated October 5, 1999 and is signed off by the director, Gilles Duclos, and James Martin. On the other one, there are the names of the people who signed off but no date. The date has been deleted. This is a major cover-up. This is the biggest scandal in Canadian history. It is scandalous to try to keep Canadians in the dark on the goings on in a government department, a department which is owned by Canadians. This is Canadians' parliament. They have a right to know the truth. From the very beginning everything that has gone on has been tainted. The government has tried to cover up important information from the Canadian taxpayer.

When we look at and read about this issue we keep uncovering something new everyday. Every opposition party goes through it. We have been working hard to try to get to the truth. We even asked for the audits for 1991 and 1994.

We have asked for a copy of the 1991 audit, an audit conducted nine years ago, as well as the 1994 audit. That was three weeks ago. Why have we not received anything yet? Let me tell you why.

[André Harvey, Progressive Conservative, Chicoutimi, QC]

Cheques get to Shawinigan faster than that.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Canada is a bilingual country. I think we all agree on that. The reason why copies of the audits were not distributed to the opposition parties is that the 1991 and 1994 documents have not been translated.

[André Harvey, Progressive Conservative, Chicoutimi, QC]

It took nine years to translate them.

[Antoine Dubé, Bloc, Lévis, QC]

They had not been translated into French. It is absolutely incredible. Last week, a senior official, whom we have seen on several occasions on TV since the scandal broke out, told us it was unfortunate they had not been translated.

In the year 2000, in this new millenium, in a democratic and bilingual country, it is not unfortunate, it is unacceptable.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Shame on all of you.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, trying to get some money from the government to create jobs in your riding. Forget the application, it is not needed. Many files that were opened did not even have an application. That is terrible. As a matter of fact some of the files were empty. I am talking about billions of dollars.

The premiers of Canada were in Quebec City demanding—

[An hon. member]

Grandstanding.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

—they will say grandstanding because the government thinks that health care is secondary for Canada. Whatever the provinces say does not matter to the government. It is because of this type of attitude that we have such a problem in Canada.

The Canadian provinces urgently demanded investments in health care, and guess what? The Liberal government in Ottawa turned a blind eye and closed its ears. It is absolutely unbelievable.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

Baloney.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

In my home province of New Brunswick I have had the pleasure of meeting with the minister of health. The member says baloney. The minister of health certainly does not say baloney. The minister of health from the province of New Brunswick said that what the Minister of Finance budgeted in his budget for health care represented $20 million for New Brunswick. He has been reading the papers quite well. It represents three days of hospital care for New Brunswick. Will that fix the problem?

At HRDC in Ottawa they are throwing money out the window when people in Canada, sick people, the most vulnerable people, need proper health care. The government would rather throw money out the window, not discipline people for what they have done, and turn a blind eye to health care. That is terrible.

We all hear about the privatization of health care. The Liberal government is forcing the privatization of health care because of its lack of investment in it. It is even forcing people to go to other countries for care. It is terrible. All this time at HRDC we see mismanagement, lack of transparency and lack of accountability.

What exactly are Canadian taxpayers looking for today? Canadian taxpayers are looking for honesty. Canadian taxpayers are looking for transparency. Canadian taxpayers are looking for the truth. We have been trying very hard to get the truth for Canadian taxpayers but it has not been forthcoming.

We have had the Prime Minister flip-flopping in the House of Commons. We have had the minister of HRDC stating to the House and to Canadian taxpayers through the House that she knew nothing about the goings on in grants and contributions before October 15.

How can we believe this? It does not make any sense that the Minister of Human Resources Development would be unaware of what was going on in her own department. I find this absolutely incredible. We are talking about the management of programs, the management of taxpayers' money, billions of dollars worth of it, and the minister in charge does not know what is going on.

We have every right to be upset here in the House. It does not make any sense. Nobody knows what is going on, and even the minister knows nothing at all. The Liberals are more concerned about what is happening within their party. On the one hand, the finance minister is trying to become the leader of the party, and, on the other hand, the Prime Minister is trying to hang on to power.

Canadians want changes, and I can tell them that we are going to keep them informed, we will tell them what is going on in Ottawa. And what is going on here is not nice.

I am a father of two. I have a boy, who is two and a half, and a girl, who is six. What am I doing here today? What I want to do—like the majority of MPs I guess—is give our children—that is what we are living for these days, our children—a great place to live.

Looking at what is going on within the federation these days, I have a big problem, because we do not cultivate relationships any more. Nowadays, we have to contend with the arrogance of a government that fails to understand how the provinces feel, and does not listen to them. By not paying attention to what is going on, the government is putting our federation—ours, yours and that of our children—in jeopardy. What we are trying to do here is to protect that federation.

I have just come from the Standing Committee on Human Resources, whose proceedings were televised today. We heard the testimony of Mel Cappe. I had the opportunity to ask him questions. I am persistent in my questions, and I asked him if he was aware of the study. He said, as everyone on the government side has said, that he was not. That is the usual thing we hear from the government: they do not know, they are not aware of what is being done with public funds.

What have they done right from the start? They have changed nothing since they came to power in 1993. The free trade agreement and the GST were brought in by the Conservative government. The free trade agreement generates $280 billion, not $80 billion, and the GST $24 billion yearly. What are the Liberals up to? They do not know what is going on.

Mr. Cappe said he did not know. I asked him if it was not his duty to be informed. His response was no. It was not his duty to know what was going on. “It is the duty of the minister and deputy minister”, he said. If the blues are checked, it will be seen that he said “It is the duty of the Minister of Human Resources Development and Deputy Minister Claire Morris to know what is going on”. They were not aware either. That is what we were told, here in the House. So hon. members can well imagine the trouble the opposition parties have to find out the truth.

The government is out of touch. The government is arrogant, but the HRDC scandal will stick. It will not go away. I have been doing interviews across the land, across this great country, and some government members across the way must be very uncomfortable.

I am anxious to see when the Prime Minister will call the next election. I am very anxious to campaign and tell Canadians the truth of what has been going on here. The hard earned money of Canadians has been ripped off. Canadians pay heavy taxes. Canadians work hard for their money. Canadians want their money to be well invested. Their money has not been well invested. Their money has been mismanaged. It is a lot of money.

There are priorities in Canada. I have mentioned a few: health care, taking care of our sick, our most vulnerable, and education, providing the tools that our children need to compete in this global market. We have heard students from all over Canada tell us that they do not have enough. Job creation has not been going on in the government. We have noticed that the government has been wasting money by not monitoring what it has been doing.

It was a pleasure for me to share with the House and with Canadians what has been going on with HRDC. A public inquiry is certainly a vehicle that will enforce and help us get to the truth. In turn, we will be supporting the motion by my colleague from the Bloc.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

Mr. Speaker, after listening to the hon. member across the way I get the feeling that this place is awash in crocodile tears. The hon. member sounds to me a bit frustrated. It is perhaps because of his recent experience a few minutes ago at the committee where Mr. Cappe appeared.

I listened to the hon. member question Mr. Cappe. I can assure the House that he did not lay a glove on Cappe. He did not touch Cappe. Mr. Cappe performed extremely well. Perhaps it was because the hon. member did not know how to ask questions, or perhaps it was because the hon. member really was not interested in extracting information from the deputy minister.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Question.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

This is comments and questions. Opposition members have not been interested in the whole exercise that has been going on for more than eight weeks. They talk about wanting to get to the bottom of this issue, as we do. The minister has said on a number of occasions that they have a management problem. She wants to get to the bottom of it but do opposition members, as reflected in the motion today? Does one really think opposition members are interested in getting to the bottom? No. They are interested in hurling mud. The more mud they can throw, the better for them. They really think that Canadian voters will fall for it. They will not fall for it.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I have to comment. This is the hon. member who called the minister of health baloney a while ago, that what he thought was not realistic. I am glad the hon. member was at committee. It is the first time that I have seen him there. I have never seen him there before.

[John Harvard, Liberal, Charleswood—Assiniboine, MB]

I am not a member.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

That is probably why. I have the questions I asked of Mr. Cappe on what happened to over $1 billion of taxpayer money. Opposition members questioning top civil servants on what went on is very important.

It is obviously not important to the government. It would rather see this swept under the carpet, and quickly. It is not going to be swept under the carpet.

We are going to continue to ask questions every day until we get the truth, because we do not have the truth. We are concerned and Canadians are concerned about where the money went.

Hopefully the hon. member will ask the Prime Minister to name him to the committee. Then we will see how productive he can be.

[Jean-Guy Chrétien, Bloc, Frontenac—Mégantic, QC]

Mr. Speaker, in January I spent some time in New Brunswick, more specifically in Fredericton. I heard a lot of good things about the member for Madawaska—Restigouche, in particular in Fredericton's Daily Gleaner . He has a very good reputation in New Brunswick. I must admit that I have discovered this in his transparent and convincing speech.

As we know, happily or unhappily, New Brunswick was represented by Doug Young, who was minister of human resources development. Fortunately for all Canadians, they taught him the lesson of his life by showing him the way out. I congratulate the NDP member for Acadie—Bathurst who made him bite the dust. I hope we will not have the unpleasant surprise of seeing this man back in the House of Commons.

To get back to HRDC, we are witnessing the greatest scandal in modern times in the House of Commons. The party across the way probably has mismanaged between $1 billion and $3 billion. The Prime Minister mentioned 37 cases. There are now 19 files under investigation by the RCMP. Out of some 495 or 500 files picked at random, 37 were fraught with problems. Today, 19 cases are under investigation by the RCMP. If we examined all files thoroughly, the amount would probably be much higher than $1 billion.

Clearly, we have an opportunity to defeat the government during tonight's vote. It appears from discussions we had this morning that all opposition parties are going to vote in favour of an inquiry into HRDC. I do not expect the Liberals to do so.

I would like to ask the hon. member for Madawaska—Restigouche if he would be ready to defeat the government so that we could all look forward to sound management on behalf of all Canadians.

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague for the excellent comments and praise he has given me. I hope he enjoyed his time in New Brunswick, one of the most beautiful provinces in the country.

To return to the question, yes, together we can bring down the government, and that is what we must do. We remember very well that the Prime Minister said in the House “It is only $251”. The member for Frontenac—Mégantic is absolutely right. The Prime Minister said $251, some three weeks ago, a month ago, and today we are up to 19 police investigations. Yes we will vote together and hope that we will bring down the government.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Wentworth—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened to the remarks of my Conservative colleague with considerable interest.

I would like to put a question to him. In my opinion, in connection with the problems at the Department of Human Resources Development, and in the context of this motion, the Access to Information Act is a useful tool in getting at the truth in government management. I wonder whether my colleague would support an update of this law.

Would he support a bill to modernize the Access to Information Act in the context of this motion?

[Jean Dubé, Progressive Conservative, Madawaska—Restigouche, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I am surprised, because only rarely do we get a good question from the members on the government side. I would like to congratulate my colleague.

As many in this House know, it is difficult to obtain information under this law. Often, we can wait months, or even years.

We rarely get all we asked for. So it is difficult for us as parliamentarians, representatives of the people of Canada, to guarantee transparency. It would be an idea for all of us in the House of Commons to consider such a measure in order to give Canadians more transparency in the management of various programs and in the management of funds in Ottawa.

I would indeed be pleased to review this law at some point. If the member opposite would care to sit down with me to discuss the matter, I would be pleased.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)]

I want to congratulate the hon. member for Wentworth—Burlington on the incredible strides he is making in French. It is a tough road.

Unfortunately I had to compliment him in English so that we could both understand.

[Suzanne Tremblay, Bloc, Rimouski—Mitis, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Bloc Quebecois has moved today for debate a motion that refers directly to the scandal at the Department of Human Resources Development.

This motion recommends:

—the creation of an independent public commission of inquiry, whose members will be appointed by the House, and whose mandate will be to inquire into all practices of that Department and to report to the House by September 19, 2000.

Several reasons have led the Bloc to move this motion for a vote in the House at the end of the day, among others: the lack of transparency of the government, which refuses day after day to answer straight out questions by the opposition; the government's cover-up of a fiasco that is still going on in the Department of Human Resources Development; the fact that Liberals are mixing up government and party and are using public funds for partisan purposes; the too numerous projects under investigation by the RCPM or the police.

Obviously, the minister received a very bad legacy from her predecessor. Consequently, since she became aware of the huge fiscal abyss her department is in, she tried to hide information, problem cases, patronage cases and criminal investigations that have been piling up since the scandal broke.

When the minister—or one of her colleagues who answers for her, as the Minister of Veteran Affairs did yesterday—does no longer know what to say, we hear as an answer that the Quebec government had recommended and signed these projects. Very well. But this information has absolutely nothing to do with the problem raised by the opposition.

Even though Minister Harel put her signature on all the projects, neither she nor her department were responsible for the management of the funds. It was HRDC and not Emploi Québec that managed the funds.

The Minister for International Trade and the Prime Minister, who talked about it in an televised interview last weekend, are really in no position to ridicule the work of Minister Lemieux and Emploi Québec. The hon. member for Papineau—Saint-Denis should remember that it is easier to look at the speck of dust in a neighbour's eye than at the plank in one's own.

One thing is clear: Minister Harel could certainly not recommend projects that received grants from the minister of HRDC even before any application was filed.

The serious carelessness in the management of the program made fraud, mishandling of funds, political interference and patronage possible.

How could the minister imagine for one moment that we believe her? What happened to her honesty, her integrity, her good conscience, her sense of ethics and the oath she swore when she assumed responsibility for the department last August?

I would like to give an example that illustrates this whole mess perfectly, the case of Placeteco. Listen carefully, you will be enlightened.

Placeteco is a manufacturer of plastic casts. In 1996-97, Aérospatiale Globax, the parent corporation of Placeteco, applied for a grant from the transitional jobs fund. HRDC approved a $2 million grant, and a first payment of $400,000 was made.

Placeteco, owned by Mr. Giguère, a friend of the Prime Minister, sought protection from its creditors under the Bankruptcy Act. The balance of the grant, $1.6 million, was placed in two trust accounts, one for Placeteco, and the other one for Technipaint, another subsidiary of Aérospatiale Globax.

Placeteco knew that it would eventually get a $1.2 million grant, but it kept this information from its creditors, in violation of the Bankruptcy Act. Through underhanded schemes—this is a bit harsh, but I cannot find any other way to describe the conduct of the Prime Minister's cronies—HRDC put $1.2 million in trust accounts while the situation of Placeteco was being sorted out, in violation of Treasury Board guidelines.

A lawyer, Gilles Champagne, was hired as a trustee for HRDC. Ironically, Gilles Champagne is also the lawyer of Claude Gauthier, another friend of the Prime Minister. Claude Gauthier would eventually buy Placeteco for a cool $1 and promise to invest $200,000 in the company. After that, Claude Gauthier received a $1.2 million grant.

Members must not forget that grants under this program are to be used to create jobs. What did Mr. Gauthier do with his $1 million? He paid off a loan at the National Bank, Placeteco's main creditor. That kind of behaviour is called misappropriation of funds.

Since the use of trusts is against the rules of Treasury Board, Technipaint had to submit a new application for a grant that was finally awarded to it. As for Placeteco, it did not have to make a new application, it received a grant of $1.2 million and its directors refused to be held accountable to HRDC.

Between 1993 and 1997, Claude Gauthier and his various companies donated a total of $48,673 to the Liberal Party of Canada. Is it any wonder that Placeteco was given preferential treatment?

Claude Gauthier is also the owner of Continental Paving, the company that got the subcontract for paving the RCMP road leading to the Prime Minister's cottage, whereas the initial contract had been awarded without tenders to Rénald Cloutier, a building contractor who had also built the Prime Minister's cottage in the area.

I could go on with the file on Claude Gauthier and talk about the golf course he bought from the Prime Minister, but that would simply add another scandal.

Let us not be naive. The Prime Minister prides himself on being a good member of parliament. I am not in a position to assess that statement, therefore I cannot confirm nor invalidate it. It will be incumbent on the voters to do it in the next general elections, if he succeeds in maintaining himself at the helm of the party up till then.

In the meantime, with the employment insurance reform and the billions in surpluses pocketed by the government, and in light of what happened at HRDC with the management of the job creation program, which is funded with savings made on the backs of the unemployed and the disadvantaged, one is justified in decrying this a unfair, indecent behaviour on the part of this government, which cloaks itself in its Caesar-like arrogance.

The job creation program is a good program when it is implemented in accordance with the existing rules. It is a good program when it is available to eligible ridings.

However, it is a bad program when the funds are squandered left and right, when these funds are used to make the Prime Minister's friends or the Liberal government's friends richer, when they are used to unduly favour Liberal ridings that do not meet basic criteria, when these funds are set aside for some at the expense of distributive justice, when they are mismanaged with no serious monitoring, and when grants are given without any application having been submitted to the department. The program must be reviewed, but it is definitely not with a six point plan from the minister that patronage, corruption and major violations of ethics, justice, honesty and integrity will be eliminated.

As long as the minister will not have the courage to face these problems, she will not be able to recognize them, let alone deal with them.

If the minister wants to do her job, if she wants to respect her oath and restore confidence in her department, she has no choice but to order an independent public inquiry.