Debates of March 22nd, 2000

Human Resources Development

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, let me point out that one of the very important projects funded in the province of Alberta went to the Canadian Paraplegic Association. It has come out on record supporting this undertaking in these investments and indicated that without this money there are men and women paraplegics in the province of Alberta, the hon. member's own riding, who would not be working.

[Deborah Grey, Reform, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I think every paraplegic in the country is every bit as concerned about the mismanagement of funds by this government.

The Liberals sure do have flex appeal. It is like this, “There are rules, but we can be flexible”, or how about “Sure the Treasury Board says we have to do this, but we can be flexible”, or how about, “The Financial Administration Act, do not worry about it. It is flexible”.

Why is it that when the Prime Minister talks about flexibility, he really means flipping cash for Liberal seats?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I would ask why is it that party over there does not take the time to talk to its own members who have benefited from the investments of the Government of Canada. They have seen constituents in their ridings working where they would not otherwise be working. Why does the member not take the time to talk to the member for Okanagan—Shuswap who as recently as last week came over to me with a letter from the mayor of one of his communities encouraging me to approve a Canada jobs fund project in that riding?

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, as justification for payment of the $1.2 million grant to Placeteco, the minister said she had received invoices indicating that jobs had been created or maintained.

What sort of invoices is the minister talking about and how much of the $1.2 million did her department pay out?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I want to make it clear that the invoices we received were sufficient to cover the expenses and the costs that were invested by the Government of Canada in this project. I say again that our choice was to continue to ensure that the opportunities were there for those men and women working at Placeteco, at Techni-Paint because from our point of view, making sure that they continue to have work was the right thing to do.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, so the minister is telling us that she received invoices for $1.2 million. We know that $1 million was used to pay off a National Bank of Canada loan. That leaves $200,000 unaccounted for.

Exactly what sort of invoices were they, for what purposes, and is she prepared to table them here in the House so that we may see what became of the $200,000? Because we know where the first $1 million went: not into creating or maintaining jobs but into paying off a National Bank of Canada loan.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again I would say that we have been working with the sponsors in this project. We have reviewed the files in both Placeteco and Techni-Paint. I would remind the House that this was an undertaking supported by the Government of Quebec because in this region of high unemployment, it was viewed to be appropriate and the correct way to invest.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Speaker, since the minister is still refusing to launch an investigation into the Placeteco affair, we have no other choice but to ask questions so that taxpayers may know what the $1.2 million grant was used for.

What we are asking for is not unreasonable. All we wish to know is what kind of invoices were supplied to the minister to justify payment of the grant to Placeteco.

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, in this particular case the money went to salaries, to supplies. It went to an undertaking in the community of Shawinigan and also in the community of Trois-Rivières. Some 170 people are working. That was the intent of this program and it is working.

[Paul Crête, Bloc, Kamouraska—Rivière-Du-Loup—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Yet it is simple, Mr. Speaker.

The minister tells us there were invoices justifying the payment of the grant. Can she tell us whether the money went to pay a $1 million debt to the National Bank?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, I say again that the invoices were for salaries and overhead. They were not used for a banker payment.

Health Care

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, Alberta admits that Bill 11 is based on a secret deal with the Liberals. Let me quote the memo that confirms it:

Without Health Canada's agreement on the principle that it is acceptable for physicians to work in both the public and private sectors, the existing private clinic policy would not have been possible to implement.

Why does the Prime Minister not admit the obvious, that Ottawa acquiesced to privatization in the Alberta principles and that the government must now repeal this deal if the spread of two tier private medicine is to be stopped?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, the minister and I have been very clear that the five conditions of medicare will be respected in all circumstances. In 1997 I understand there was correspondence between officials dealing with this problem but there was no agreement by the federal government. The document to which the member referred refers to directives by the Alberta government.

[Alexa McDonough, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Speaker, apparently the government's narrow notion of defending the Canada Health Act does not actually include taking any action to stop the spread of two tier private medicine.

Action is needed now. The Prime Minister is going to Alberta this week. Will he move beyond the empty speeches? Will he repeal his secret deal which paves the way for a parallel, for profit health care system right across the country?

[Jean Chrétien, Liberal, Prime Minister]

Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no secret deal, absolutely none. I will tell the premier when I meet him tomorrow very clearly that Alberta, like any other provincial government, is obliged to respect the five conditions of medicare. If it does not do that, we will do what we have done previously against the Government of Alberta, keep the money because it is not doing what it ought to do.

The Economy

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, fuel prices across the nation have hit an all-time high threatening to ripple through the economy in the form of higher prices on goods and services. Today the Bank of Canada raised its key lending rate by a quarter point setting off a rise in the interest rates Canadians and businesses pay for loans and mortgages.

Can the Minister of Finance tell us what his plans are to prevent a potentially crippling round of inflation in Canada?

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, most economists will tell us while there is no doubt that rising fuel prices do place undue impact on families, on those who are driving cars, that in fact the current situation is not inflationary. The output gap in Canada remains such that while we must always be vigilant about inflation, it is well within check.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, that indicates that the Minister of Finance seems totally oblivious to the signs of economic trouble. It is ordinary Canadians who will pay the price for his indifference through escalating costs for consumer prices and high interest rates.

What is the minister doing to prevent the kind of economic meltdown that we experienced during the Trudeau years? I remind him he has been there seven years.

[Paul Martin, Liberal, Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member first of all has the wrong years. They were much more recent than that.

What the hon. member ought to understand, and perhaps the question he might want to address, is that in the Tories' tax plan brought down about a month and a half ago, not once did they mention rising fuel prices. Not once did they mention the plight of ordinary Canadians.

It is members on this side of the House who have led the fight to make sure we take care of them.

Human Resources Development

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we know there was flexibility in HRDC. Things were so flexible people did not even have to apply to get the public's money from the government.

This is not about flexibility but about a document appearing when there should be none. The then deputy minister said yesterday that there were no explicit guidelines about pockets. However, the minister recently distributed a document to back up her claims that there were explicit guidelines.

Why did the minister write down policy that apparently existed only in her own mind?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, again, when we look at the transitional jobs fund, the whole point was to help communities with areas of high unemployment to provide opportunities where they would not otherwise be found.

I have talked about this on a number of occasions. Originally 75% of the funds were to go to areas where unemployment levels were above 12%, and 25% for areas below 12%.

In over half the cases where the unemployment levels were less than 12%, we find the investments in opposition ridings.

[Diane Ablonczy, Reform, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that answer has nothing to do with the question. The question is: Why did the deputy minister say that nothing was written down and the minister produced a document? Obviously they cannot both be right. Either there are no explicit guidelines or there are explicit guidelines. Who is telling the truth in this matter? We need to have an answer?

[Jane Stewart, Liberal, Minister of Human Resources Development]

Mr. Speaker, the document to which the hon. member refers outlines exactly how the investments were made in every region of the country in areas of less than 12% unemployment.

I remind the House that time and again investments were made in Reform ridings because we believed it was the right thing to do and because we knew that the people in those areas of northern British Columbia, for example, needed the support of the Government of Canada to provide opportunities to diversify economies.

We know that members on that side of the House think a trickle down economy will solve the world's problems and the problems here in our country. We know that is just not so.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the minister has just told the House that the $1.2 million in funding was at no time used to pay back the National Bank.

I have here in front of me the articles of agreement between Claude Gauthier and René Giguère and the National Bank, and its subclause 3.2.2 states that “the bridging loan of $1,060,000 will be repaid as the Human Resources Development Canada funding is received, up to the limit of $1,060,000”. It is further indicated that any additional amounts received by Placeteco in connection with the grant could be allocated to its working capital.

How can the Minister of Human Resources Development say what she has just—

[The Speaker]

The hon. Minister of Human Resources Development.