Madam Speaker, there are bills we debate that do not cause us too much distress. There are others, very important ones, that affect us in the way we were raised, in our beliefs. Bill C-23 hits us hard in the gut. However, we want to behave as MPs, it pushes us to think more.
On the subject of Bill C-23, the Progressive Conservative party has decided the vote will be a free one. There has always been a free vote in caucus, but in the House, where the members belong to a political party, there must be solidarity. In this case, as in others in which moral fibre is very important, the members will have the option of voting according to their own conscience or that of their electors.
I listened to the Reform members' presentations. It is not clear whether their consciences will win out or whether they will follow the wishes of their constituents. As I can see, their consciences are likely to have the upper hand.
This bill is not easy. When we talk about the rights of homosexuals in the country, in fiscal terms, with some sixty laws involved, it is not an easy matter. It is tempting to hide, saying “It is true, there are homosexuals, there are gays and lesbians, but why are we talking about it?” People ask us “Why talk about gays and lesbians?” Who does not know people who are gay or lesbian? We cannot say they do not exist. They are there.
Someone said “They are fine people, but—”. That is a bit backward. “They are fine people, but we should not go too far. There is the marriage issue”.
On the subject of marriage, with the rule of interpretation, the government took a step in the right direction. It is a rule of interpretation that has force of law, much more so than some members might imagine. Why do I say that? Because I recall that the conditions set out in the Meech Lake accord were rules of interpretation.
The concept of distinct society was included in a preamble. It was a rule of interpretation. I remember that, in certain parts of the country, people were afraid of that rule and its weight from a legal standpoint. Personally, I am very, very pleased with that rule.
Naturally, it is not easy to discuss giving gays and lesbians who are in a common-law partnership the same tax benefits as a man and a woman in a similar partnership. Personally, I will support the bill. Did I read all the clauses and assess all the implications? The answer is no.
People in my riding have asked me what this bill was all about. I told them “It is an omnibus bill”. In order to understand fully the impact of Bill C-23, one must know all the acts that are mentioned in it. This makes Bill C-23 an absolutely incredible document.
I am not an expert on this bill like the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, but there are principles involved here. I had discussions with people in my riding. Some support this bill, and others oppose it. Some people ask many more questions than others. An older lady told me “I remember 25, 30 or 35 years ago, when my daughter decided to move in with her boyfriend, it was a tragedy. We would tell them “What are you doing? You are living in sin. Such a relationship is illegal, as evidenced by the fact that the Church opposes it, while the law does not recognize it”.
Finally, things have evolved. I think that the discussion nowadays is much like the discussions that used to take place in Canada and Quebec and all the provinces about cohabitation—although not quite the same, because any analogy is imperfect. Do we provide the same benefits? People were afraid that the sacrament of marriage might disappear if they recognized the existing reality.
I was asked how I saw it? When I was a teenager, people would ask me what I wanted. Back then, I said that I wanted to get married and have children. That was what I wanted. I did not get married and I have a little boy of four. I do not feel excluded from society in any way. I am a practising Catholic and I do not feel excluded.
I have also spoken with a few people in the Church and some take a harder line. Others make a distinction between their concerns and those of others, between secular society—this does not mean that they are not interested, that they are not a part of that society—and religious society. What concerns them is faith, religion. For them, marriage continues to be the union of a man and a woman. That does not change. However, they naturally take a stand on any bill that secular society comes up with. Within the Church itself, there are divisions, different stands. It is the same way within the Progressive Conservative Party.
Who am I to say that, as you cannot have children in the normal way, you cannot be recognized as a couple for tax purposes, for the purpose of benefits? Who am I? My faith may tell me that a family, a marriage, takes a certain form. That is all very well, but who am I to judge?
This is a reality. Some will say that being gay or lesbian is not normal. Some people in this House still believe it is a disease, or that it is hereditary, or if not hereditary is a matter of behaviour and the result of some past problem. They contend that the gays and lesbians in this country are the result of family breakdown.
I do not have the answer. I do know that people must adjust to reality, a reality that is, in some ways, accepted by those who live in this country. Unlike the situation with other issues of equal importance and difficulty, I have not seen people picketing the homes of gays or lesbians. Has it been seen? I have seen not such thing. Have hon. members seen signs proclaiming “We are anti-gay. We are against lesbians”? I have not. We do, of course, have our protester out front, but that is what democracy is all about.
There is some openness in this country. Bill C-23 is putting into law what the supreme court has called upon us to do. We know that members of the Reform Party are not keen on the supreme court. They do not like courts of law, and yet, unfortunately, they are going to end up in one once again, because of their name, but that is another story.
Our thinking must evolve with the times, our open-mindedness in particular. The government can be heavily criticized for one thing about Bill C-23 and I believe that all opposition parties agree on this point. They could have taken more time to consult the—