Mr. Speaker, I rise to debate the amendments in Group No. 1 on Bill C-23. I will debate essentially three aspects of these amendments.
The first has to do with the matter of definitions. In fact I would like to suggest that the purpose of the amendment is to focus on the definition of marriage. That is the purpose of the amendment.
I think we would agree with a lot of things about this amendment. I know I certainly would. The suggestion that this is the union of a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others is consistent with the June 1999 motion in the House.
After looking at these amendments I asked myself what all the fuss was about with the definition. Why should we care so much about the definition? I recalled back to a day when I was in grade eight. The teacher came into the class and said “Class, I would like you to take out a clean sheet of paper and write at the top of the page the word science”. He then asked “What is science?” Science is the orderly arrangement of knowledge. After having gone through this in grade school, while taking several courses in organic chemistry in university, I asked a professor to define science, and he did. Guess what he said? He said that science was the progressively explicit organization of knowledge.
There we have it. What is in a definition? A definition tells us clearly what a thing or an element is and what it is not. It defines something as being exclusive from all other things.
One of the major contributions that Mendeleev made, for example, was to categorize the various elements, to show the various atomic weights of these elements and in what order, the valences of these chemicals and what they had, and how they would unite with one another. It was the degree to which one could specify in detail what each of those elements were, what each of the definitions are and how they work that progressed science.
As we define things more and more clearly, we are progressing. That is not regressive. The suggestion is being made that by modernizing we can somehow expand the definition of marriage. That is not the point. That is precisely why we have insisted that the definition of marriage be included, not only in Bill C-23 but also in subsequent legislative bills that this particular bill proposes to amend.
Not only does definition allow us to recognize what a thing is and, by that very recognition, what all other things are not that particular issue that we are talking about, there can be all kinds of other arrangements. There can be common law arrangements, gay arrangements and liaisons of a variety of natures. They are just simply liaisons and they are different from marriage. They are not marriage. To expand marriage to include that would, it seems to me, confuse the issue rather than clarify it.
What is being sought here is a clarity, to make abundantly clear to everyone that this is what marriage is. That means that any other relationship simply is not marriage. It seems to me that is very fundamental. That is why it is so essential that we focus on the definition.
We could go on at great length to determine what the other significant aspects are of a clear definition. One of the most significant aspect is to clearly identify how things relate to one another and how they differ from one another. This does not mean that they are not equal. A toe is not the same as a thumb. The head is not the same as a leg. However, they are part of a body. As we define these things, we begin to recognize how they relate to one another, and similarly in marriage.
The marriage definition clearly identifies the relationship between a man and a woman to the exclusion of all others and that this be a lawful arrangement as to the exclusion of all others. It is abundantly clear that is what is being proposed here.
The difficulty arises when we confuse the definition with something else that it begins to mean something different. It is expanded to the point where relationships become confused and where in fact it is not clear any more what ought to be the situation with marriage as compared to any other situation.
We need to recognize that equality is essential and will only happen if and when we have clear definitions. If not, what happens? It means that if we have clearly defined something we can then go to a judge and to any other part of society and say what we mean. The judge would then not have to interpret it differently in one case from another case, from a different situation. It can then be applied across the board. The judge can be consistent, equal and fair in all those cases.
I believe it was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Justice who suggested that the only reason why this was happening was because the supreme court said so. If there was ever a role for the House, it was to clearly define what we mean in the legislation that we write. The last thing we should do is let the courts tell us what we mean in any legislation. We should tell the court what we mean without equivocation and without interpretation. The judge then has to interpret the application of that law in particular cases. If the definition is clear, he can do so consistently with equality, justice and fairness. That is what we need.
What happens if we do not have a clear definition? It is very interesting to see what happens. First, there is confusion. What is it we are talking about? If that is the issue, then it is abundantly clear why this particular amendment should come forward.
In this connection, I will refer, as my hon. colleague did just a moment ago, to an interpretation of a rather respected law professor at the Osgoode Hall Law School, a practitioner in law and a man who has presented various cases before judges. After a very careful and studied analysis, he came to a conclusion and said:
If Parliament intends to state that, as a matter of federal law, “marriage” is the “lawful union of one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others” then in my opinion (the Minister's amendment) does not achieve that objective. As previously stated, (the Minister's amendment) is not an enacting section—
Those watching must be wondering what in the world that means. It simply means that this does not enact that definition in each of the subsequent pieces of legislation. In other words, it may have force or it may not have force. It is a matter of opinion, a matter of interpretation. The definition of marriage should not be a matter of interpretation, which is essentially what this legal mind has said.
The gentleman goes on to say:
—it will not bring into force any legally binding definition of “marriage”. By contrast, if the Bill was amended to enact a definition of marriage for each of the particular acts referred to in the Bill, then Parliament would be giving a clear indication of its intention to the courts and to the public at large.
Can anything be more clear and unequivocal than that kind of statement? That is what we are asking the government to do.
The hon. member for Vancouver East stated that we are not speaking consistently with what people are saying. I certainly am speaking consistently with what my constituents are saying.
I was in my constituency last Friday and I asked how many calls, letters, faxes and e-mails we had received in support of Bill C-23 and how many we had received in opposition to Bill C-23. I was told that they had not counted the number in support of the bill because there was only one in support of it. We have not yet been able to count the numbers opposed to Bill C-23. Is that not pretty clear? Only one person out of almost 125,000 voters in the area supports the bill. By far, the majority of people are not in favour of Bill C-23 as it is being proposed.
In the interest of building and making a better piece of legislation there are two possibilities. The first is to amend it so it does what the government is intending it to do. I encourage the government to do that. The second is to withdraw the bill until it can be studied and until the people of Canada can express themselves, as they have to me, as they have to my hon. colleague for Calgary Centre and as they have to many of the other MPs in the House. Do it.
We are not here to condemn the government. We are not here to oppose the government. We are here to give to the people the kind of legislation and the organization of marriage and of families that will make our society stronger and will make Canada stronger. On the basis of that, the family is the strength of the nation.