Mr. Speaker, perhaps you will forgive me if I do not say it is a pleasure to address Bill C-37 because I think it is always difficult for members of parliament to talk about their own compensation packages. It is a discomfort for all of us on all sides of the House to talk about what it is we think we are worth as parliamentarians, whether we think we are worth a pension or what the severance package should look like. It is the discomfort that comes from talking about one's own salary and setting one's own wages. It is a difficult thing to talk about publicly.
During the debate this evening I think we will hear a level of that discomfort in all of the discussions that come forward, because people realize that no matter how they slice this loaf of bread there will be others who will misinterpret it or have it deliberately misinterpreted for them. I think we all understand that some of that is bound to happen.
I thank the House leader for the government for giving a very accurate description of what the bill is about technically, the reasons for it and the changes to the severance package that specifically address a wrong which was allowed to stand after the last changes were put through the House.
The changes uphold what I think should be a principle of any pension plan, which is that we need to be equitable to all people in the House of Commons when it comes to what is a fair and sensible severance package for MPs. I cannot think of any logic which would say that someone elected in 1993 should not get a severance plan, but someone elected in 1997 should. It is illogical. It is not right.
A pension plan is practical because people will often campaign right up to the date of an election, anticipating that they will be back here, only to be surprised—and many of us will go through this over the years—to find that they do not have a job the next day. Barring asking members of parliament to set up another business while they are serving as parliamentarians, it is only fair that a severance package be given. Again, the principle is that if it is equitable for one group of MPs, it needs to be equitable and fair for others. That to me seems fair.
With respect to the changes to the MP pension plan that are proposed in the legislation, unlike the last time we made changes to the plan in the House, one of the things I am grateful for is that there will be a significant amount time, as a matter of fact as much time as people want, to speak to the bill and to put their thoughts on the record. I think it is wise for us in parliament and one of the ways that we will garner respect, even on difficult issues like salaries and benefits, to allow people to speak freely in the House, to give them as much time as they want and to allow a vote.
The government House leader has asked in a certain spirit that we not actually have a standing vote. I eagerly await the debates to see where the House goes on this issue. I think it is proper and much wiser the way we are handling this issue now as compared to the last time. We are having an open debate not just on one but on two evenings. This should do away with the criticism that this was a Friday night special or the quick passage of a bill that we were somehow ashamed of.
We have to vote on this issue and we will have to move on and defend it and explain it. All of the speeches and all the debate will give people confidence that members of parliament have applied themselves to this thoughtfully and have come to a conclusion collectively.
Normally legislation comes down from the executive and backbenchers and opposition parties basically have to play whatever hand is dealt to them. It is true the government has drafted this bill. The rumour mill has been working overtime for the last month. People have talked about it in caucuses. The media has been abuzz. The self-appointed watchdogs of parliament were sure they knew what was going to happen. There has been lots of speculation about changes that might come down regarding the pension plan.
Although this is a government bill there is no pretending that this issue just dropped out of on nigh this evening. There has been lots of talk around Parliament Hill and in different circles about this. We knew something was coming. The big question was how we would deal with it as individuals and as parties once the legislation was introduced. That needs to be acknowledged and put on the record as well.
For most political parties the MP pension plan is a no brainer and is just accepted. But there were MPs in all parties who opted out of the plan in 1995 and I think they have gone through a self-inflicted torture test each and every time this issue comes up. There is no one to blame for this but ourselves. It is a case of reaping what we sow.
If I take the government House leader at his word and if he argues the plan today is a good plan, then I believe passionately and wholeheartedly that when we opposed the plan which was in place in 1993 we did the right thing. Changes had to be made to the original plan. It allowed for a pension to be paid to someone 30 years old and even younger, an MP could double dip, and there were other parts that were unpalatable to Canadians and to many of us in the modern reality we face in parliament. Changes had to be made.
There are those who say we should not have grandstanded so much to make the changes. I think the changes would not have been made unless we were willing to push the issue to the max and no doubt we did that. Some of the quotes that will be drummed up for media reports tomorrow will refer to a plan we felt had to be changed and we initiated some change. That was a good thing. Canadians had the feeling that they had been locked out of the decision making in the House.
Once the plan was amended to exclude double dipping and benefits were only payable after age 55, many of us were still convinced that it was still a more generous plan than what was seen in the private sector. The debate about whether it is too generous or not will go on here this evening. In a genuine effort, as it was in 1993, to put pressure on all sides to offer something more modest, we created two classes of MPs. There were those who would get the newly revised plan, the 1995 plan, and those who would get nothing. A significant number of people from all political parties chose the nothing option.
If that had been the end of the options available to MPs, perhaps this whole issue would have slowly gone away. Unfortunately after every parliament the salary and benefits package for elected officials goes through a mandatory statutory review.
We ended up with another plan that created yet another level of pension benefits. Currently we have the absurd situation that MPs could be entitled to a pre-1995 plan, a post-1995 plan, a 1997 plan with a different severance package than the 1993 plan, a hybrid of any of those mentioned above, or no pension at all.
Even though it was recommended by the Blais commission to offer a revised and more modest pension plan, that was not offered. Because it was not in the offing, a handful of MPs continued to opt out of the pension plan and have remained so. It is true also at that time some members from most of the parties in the House chose to opt back into the plan, arguing, I think absolutely honestly again, that they had not campaigned on no pension plan; they had campaigned on a fair pension plan.
Zero pension was never a campaign promise. Certainly it never was in this party and it never was something that we had promised either to prospective candidates or others. We have always said that we wanted a fair pension for all MPs and not just for some.
Of course any talk of pensions results in people being pilloried in the press, by some but not all in the public, by some of their own colleagues, and so on. That is usually part and parcel of what the government House leader already described as a very unfortunate development. No matter what members do it seems like it is always the wrong thing.
Virtually all MPs, those who opted in, those who stayed out, those who get some hybrid of the plan, all MPs experience some public flogging over the MP pension plan. It does not matter whether or not one is in it. I have been out of the plan and I continue to get criticized. Even though I have not been in the pension plan since 1995, I still get flogged for it.
It is very unfortunate that those of us who have remained out of the pension plan have run that gauntlet and, as I said earlier, have reaped what we have sown. We had hoped that by staying out of the plan we could press for a more modest and acceptable plan but alas, it was not to be. Even though it was recommended by the Blais commission, it was unfortunate that option was not put forward and it has ended up that now there are four different classes of pensionable members of parliament.
Today we are faced once again with another revision to the plan. It is argued by groups such as the National Citizens' Coalition and actually it is Canadian Alliance policy that the proper way to change the remuneration package of MPs is after one campaigns on it in an election. The alliance policy is that there should be an independent commission, just like the statutory review demands, to take it out of the hands of the members of parliament. No matter how we slice it we end up with accusations of being self-interested in this. It should be taken out of our hands and given to an independent commission which makes binding recommendations to the House of Commons.
If we had followed through on those recommendations in the Blais commission report, we would not be revising the plan again today. The commission recommended that we be transparent with our salaries, that we do away with the tax free allowance and call it all one type of salary. We could be up front about it and say to people, “This is what we are getting paid. We get taxed the same as other people”. We could have had a pension plan that was recommended in the Blais commission report. It would have been wise. It would have defused this issue. We would have been able to move on.
Although we can campaign on that, it is not going to happen unless everyone in this place agrees that is a better way to handle it. No matter how we vote on it or do not vote on it later, people will point a finger at us and say, “You have some self-interest in it. What are you doing voting on your own salary?”
I still absolutely believe that if we gave it to an independent commission, the salary and benefits would not change a whole lot. I agree with the Blais commission. It is not that far out of line. It is just that people want the appearance of transparency; not just the appearance of it, they want it transparent. They want to know that their MPs are treated the same way as everyone else under the tax system and they want their MPs to have a pension plan. I absolutely believe they do. They say to give us the plan, make it fair, that MPs as much as any superannuate should get a pension for having served the country in this place.
It is unfortunate that under the current plan many MPs, including those with 10 or 12 years of service to the country, or those who are over 65 years of age, will still receive no retirement benefits at all, without even the medical benefits that would be available to any superannuate, any public servant. If one is not in the pension plan the medical coverage is not available in retirement. It cannot even be bought because one has to be a member of the plan. In that sense, I believe that the second principle, that all MPs should be treated equitably and equally as far as a pension plan goes, is also fulfilled in this proposal.
All MPs in my opinion should be in a pension plan. They should be eligible for insurance and medical coverage in old age. It should be available to all members of parliament. This bill will accomplish that. It puts us all in the pension plan whether we like it or not. It allows MPs to say to their loved ones, and I am thinking especially of those who are at retirement age, who have served the country outside parliament and have spent 10, 11 or 12 years in this place, that they will not be denied the right to buy medical coverage. To me, it was just not right to ask MPs to do that.
Frankly, I think we would have seen a different result had we even known that back when some of us opted out. The fact that we had no medical coverage and could not even buy medical coverage when we left here was not known. Nobody picked up on that. It was like the severance package. It was something we did not see when we went through the process the last time.
It is unfortunate that some of the MPs who are currently not in the pension plan will still not get any pension or benefits because public pressure or personal financial straits will not permit them to spend the $50,000 or $60,000 required to vest them in the plan. The unfortunate part of this is that some people very much need access to things like medical coverage and a pension plan of some sort. If they cannot scrape up the $50,000 or $60,000, and this is not crocodile tears and I do not expect any sympathy, it points to an unfortunate development that has happened for a variety of reasons.
The failure to offer that more modest plan recommended by the Blais commission and the steadfastness of some people to stay out of the plan means that even with the changes in this bill some people will leave this place and will receive no pension. That is the personal financial story they will find themselves in. They opted for that. They will not go home crying for sympathy but it is unfortunate that an important principle has been violated and some people will get no pension. That has never been the policy of either the Reform Party or the Canadian Alliance. All MPs should get a pension. It should be a fair pension and it should be decided by an independent committee.
As opposition House leader, I realize the conundrum MPs find themselves in tonight and over the next couple of days as we talk about this and vote on it. It will evoke little public sympathy. On both sides of the House, whether it is about a severance package, potential for a pension plan, will there be a pension plan, would an MP ever take the pension, all those discussions will evoke no sympathy, even if I were to ask for it, and I am not.
The public is very cynical about some of the things that go on in parliament. Some of that we brought to this place by trying to bring in changes especially initially to the 1993 plan. I reiterate one last time that the proper way to handle the remuneration package for members of parliament is to take it out of the hands of members of parliament and give it to an independent committee. It is proper only because we cannot win this debate. No one can win this debate.
If I have learned anything over the last seven years, no matter how we try to spin this story, people will say that we are voting on our own pension and we are voting on our own salary. No matter how we try to spin that differently, that is what it boils down to. It is one of those things that is an unsolvable issue unless it is given to someone who takes it out of the hands of MPs who will struggle tonight to find the right balance of what an MP is really worth and so on. In the end result, whether they vote yea or nay, they will be passing judgment on someone else's personal financial situation when that is better left to an independent body that can look at the big picture and take some of the political considerations out of it.
That is a recommendation of our party. It is a recommendation that I personally and heartily endorse. When we come to our next statutory review of what is a proper package for all members of parliament I hope that is how we handle it in this place. I hope we will say, not just in the spirit the House leader mentioned tonight, that we will take the partisan sniping out of it, realize we are all in this boat together, and give this issue to an outside body to decide it for us.