Mr. Speaker, this evening we are debating a bill in second reading which concerns MPs' pensions.
There is one thing I would like to clarify right off the bat. It is very true that it is easy to get involved in demagoguery within such a debate, because the people debating it are the ones directly concerned. It is easy to blame other people, or to make political judgements without stepping back from a subject such as this. I do, however, have reservations about the process and about the bill per se, but I shall come back to that.
There is one thing I want to say right away: it is perfectly normal for MPs to have a pension plan like a good many other people do, whether in the public service or in the private sector.
There are also plans in place, such as the Quebec pension plan, to ensure that the greatest possible number of people have a retirement income. Parliamentarians must not be left out, and it is normal that they would have a pension plan. It is also totally normal in that—and it is important to point this out—the MPs who benefit from the plan also contribute to it.
Currently, members who participate in the pension plan contribute 9% of their salary to it. In the months or years that followed the 1993 election, the government decided to change the pension plan so that MPs could no longer start collecting a pension immediately, but only at age 55. Such a change made perfect sense. Indeed, it was totally unacceptable that, for example, a 40 year old MP leaving after sitting six years in parliament would collect a pension until the age of 55, while getting a percentage of his salary.
Under the pre-1995 plan, an MP would accumulate a pension at a rate of 5% per year in office. Therefore, a member with eight years in the House, or two mandates, would get 40% of his salary upon retiring, until his death.
Under the change made, it was no longer possible to collect that pension before 55. So, a person leaving office at 40 cannot receive any pension until age 55. That pension is deferred and paid only at retirement age. That change made sense and it was welcomed by the public, because it made the plan more realistic, more in line with the reality elsewhere, both in the private and the public sector.
At the time, MPs had the option of not participating in the plan. That was my case. I chose not to join in that plan. This means that I do not contribute to the plan, but will not benefit from it either. That was my choice and it still is.
What I do not like about this bill is that as soon as it is passed—and I am convinced it will be, because a majority of members here will support it—I will no longer have that option. I will automatically be covered by the plan, even though I do not wish to be covered, and I have a problem with that.
I was allowed to opt out and now I am being forced back in. I would like members to continue to have the option or, if people are forced to contribute, see the government at least wait until election is a thing of the past and say “From now on, there is a universal system that applies to everyone. It will apply to anyone who is a candidate and who wins the election”.
I opted out. I also told my constituents that I had done so. Now, I will have to tell them that the government has introduced a bill that forces me to opt back in, effective tomorrow morning. I have a lot of trouble with that and that is why I cannot vote in favour of the bill.
Not everyone is familiar with the bill. Why is it being introduced at this particular time? In the amendments to the legislation in 1995, there was an oversight by the government. The result was that members under 55 years of age who had contributed to the pension plan and who ceased to be members, no longer received severance pay, while members who had opted out of the plan, as I had, were entitled to severance pay.
Obviously, this is not fair, because when members finished their term of office, or were defeated in an election, they did not have a few weeks or months of income to give them some breathing space financially speaking. Nor were they covered by EI.
The government therefore wished to correct this oversight. I have no problem with that part of the bill, which gives MPs an allowance for six months after the end of their mandate or after they lose their seat. I do have a problem with the other part, which now requires everyone to belong to the pension plan.
I know also that it is not necessarily the government MPs who are affected by this part. It is mainly a group of Canadian Alliance members. I have trouble with members who get themselves elected by saying “I do not want to belong to the pension plan” and who now will conveniently be able to say “I was forced back into it”. One could well think this provision was put there primarily for their benefit.
That does not work. I have trouble with people who made these noble speeches just to get elected. That was not the only thing they were running on, but it was part of their platform. Now they are sneaking in the back way, claiming that the government forced them to join the pension plan and the government will play along by saying “Let's go ahead and rush this through at the end of a parliamentary session”.
It would have been better to have at least divided the two matters, the first one being to correct the fact that an MP who leaves at the end of a legislature, or after having been defeated in an election, can benefit from the allowance. I believe there is a consensus, or there might be close to unanimity, on this. I have no problem with that part, but I do have one with the second part, which states that, as soon as there has been royal assent, I am going to have to start contributing again to this plan to which I do not want to belong for a variety of reasons.
Members will also be able to buy back past years. They have at least been given this option. There is no requirement to buy them back. Happily, the door has been opened, meaning that I am not forced to join retroactively. But in the future, I will have no option.
I repeat that if it were at least done after an election, after an announcement was made to the effect that there will be a new plan and that members elected in the next Parliament will be subject to such and such conditions, people would be more aware, and the government party would have the leisure to leave things as they are. That would have been clear, transparent and understood by all.
I do not want to talk for hours on this. I have made my point. I think it is too bad that things often happen in an improvised and hasty fashion. Had it been otherwise, it would have meant no need to return a few years later to correct an error, because it was done in haste the previous time. People quickly saw that something was left out in the case of severance pay, but no one wanted politically to take on the dirty job of bringing it all to the table.
It takes ability and courage to defend the things one believes in. I have nothing against those who say “I do not believe in that. I think the plan should be mandatory for everyone”. Such arguments and such an opinion are defensible. At least they should have the courage to do it a little more transparently.
If they had involved a few more people in the discussions at the time, had it not gone on at just one level, had people been more involved, at least forewarned, they would have avoided this sort of error. Except for a few people who were involved in the negotiations—and here again, I would say that that has been limited to people very close to the government House leader—we are hearing about this bill for the first time today, with technical amendments to the plan, with the result that questions are being raised by those who will join the plan retroactively.
I will give an example that concerns me. For the 2000 tax year, I contributed to my own RRSP. I prefer to manage my own affairs and I therefore contribute to an RRSP. With this bill, I am being forced to contribute to the government's pension plan. I will therefore find myself in the situation of having over-contributed for this year. I will have to withdraw contributions from my RRSP, be over-contributed, because I was not aware of this fact. I have a lot of trouble with a plan that operates this way and which, on top of that, forces on me a choice I did not make, when I had been allowed to opt out.
This deserves some thought, and I would have liked members to have a bit more time to examine the bill, and go through first and second reading, committee of the whole, and third reading in 48 or 72 hours. I imagine that the government is worried that people will start being swayed by public opinion, but it should have the courage to say what is going on.
Earlier, the Bloc Quebecois House leader quite rightly said “I too can just imagine what some radio and television commentators will have to say tomorrow about those MPs who voted themselves severance pay”. That may be, but we must also have the courage to say that these people are earning more than most of us here, and than all of us because, except for ministers, all members' salaries are the same.
The sanctimonious elements in our society should take a look at themselves, because they enjoy much better conditions than we do. Meanwhile, we must have the courage to face criticism here and there and say “Listen, we will do this. We will take a little longer to do it properly”.
There is a legitimate debate on this which is related to the whole issue of enhancing the role of members of parliament. I was going to conclude, but this brings another point to mind.
Salaries and pensions are two things that may attract people to political life, but they are not the only ones. If the government is serious when dealing with issues such as salaries and pension plans, if it really wants to enhance the role of members of parliament, it should also take a closer look at the concrete work and real powers given to MPs.
I am convinced that if it improved that role somewhat, if it gave more flexibility to both government members and other members, if the Prime Minister did not control everything from his office, the work of members would be enhanced in such a way that the issue of salaries would become less important. There are elements to consider, but these elements are part of a whole.
It is not true that people enter politics only because of the conditions that relate to their duties. They also do so because they want to change things, to have a say in the decisions made. There is a lot of work to be done in that respect and I am convinced that all members of this House, except for a few ministers and those who hope to become ministers, share my view.
We talk about this a lot among ourselves but, at some point, we will have to take action. Compensation is also an issue. We must have the courage to tell people that, if they want good MPs, they have to accept the fact that these MPs must have a good salary and a good pension plan. I have no problem saying that. Often, the type of people we get depends on what is expected of them. To attract quality people, the whole package must be interesting, including the compensation aspect, the influence aspect, and so on.
There are several factors which motivate someone to go into politics, including the desire to change things and to improve the lot of the people one represents, but also the capacity to do it under reasonable working conditions compared to what one would earn elsewhere in society. All that should be taken into account.
I do not agree with the members of the Canadian Alliance who say that this issue should be left entirely to people from the outside because we must be able to make our own decision on this issue. I have no problem doing it and I would have great difficulty accepting that this decision be left to people who would not be accountable to the public.
In short, I think we must be able to have that debate, even though it might open the door to a demagogic kind of rhetoric. Some may have already gone in that direction, and others will do so, I am sure.
Because of the way it is being put through and because of its content, forcing us back in after we had been allowed to opt out, as I did, I cannot vote in favour of the bill, whether at second or at third reading.
From what I can understand of the motion, there is little possibility either of amendments at the report stage. I would have liked to have seen that possibility provided, so that the possibility for people to opt out if they wish, which had been allowed, could be retained.
In future, after another election, having it apply to new members is not a problem. Those who were allowed to opt out could at least be left with the choice they made in the past, a choice that should be respected. Whether they are now telling us that it is better to belong to it, or not to belong to it, the decision is up to us. Those who made that choice made an informed decision, and I have no problem with that. I can live very comfortably with what I decided. Today, however, I must say that I am not all that thrilled with this bill and my being forced back in the plan.
I am therefore submitting these comments to the House. I hope they will cast some light for certain members and that, between now and when it is passed at third reading, there will at least be a minimum of leeway for some arrangements to ensure that the choice made by individuals to opt out can be retained.