House of Commons Hansard #119 of the 36th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was gas.

Topics

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12:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Joe Clark Progressive Conservative Kings—Hants, NS

It is a related subject, Mr. Speaker. It is simply to say that I would never ask for special consideration in the House.

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12:35 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

But there may be others prepared to extend that special consideration.

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12:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I take this opportunity to congratulate the Leader of the Progressive Conservative Party on his maiden speech of this 36th parliament.

It is very intimidating for me to follow such a statesman who has just had the opportunity to address this House. I am sure that there are many in the House who will be able to learn from his experience and statesmanship, as I wish to and hope to over the next numbers of years in this particular party.

I am very happy to stand and speak to this motion from the Canadian Reform Alliance. I am especially happy to speak to this motion because it embraces basically every one of the issues that I, the leader and other members of this party had an opportunity to speak to on Monday morning at 10 a.m., substantially before—

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12:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

On a point of order, the hon. member for Athabasca.

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12:40 p.m.

Reform

Dave Chatters Reform Athabasca, AB

Mr. Speaker, I have listened to this debate all morning. At least three times, members have stood and reminded the Speaker that the name of this party is the Canadian Alliance. That party has been deliberately misusing the name and you have not said a word. I would urge you to correct them.

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12:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

I understand the point that the hon. member for Athabasca is making. When a member rises on a point of order, the point has been made. If the Chair occupant reinforces that point it contraindicates what it was about. However, I will repeat it.

The hon. member for Brandon—Souris referred to the now Canadian Alliance Party by its previous name, the Reform Party. I would ask that the member refer to the Canadian Alliance Party as the Canadian Alliance Party.

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12:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, if you check Hansard , my reference was to the Canadian reform alliance. For clarification, I am under the impression that the actual name is the Canadian Conservative Reform Alliance. Is that not correct? I would like clarification on that point. Or, is it the Canadian reform conservative alliance? Could you please confirm that because I would like to have the opportunity to speak to them in their true form.

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12:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

The Speaker has previously ruled on this. I would prefer not to go down that road any further. We are wasting important debate time.

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12:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, but I still would like to have clarification because I do believe that the official name is the Canadian reform conservative alliance. I will refer—

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12:40 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. McClelland)

With respect, the Chair is not the Brandon—Souris research department. Brandon—Souris has ample opportunity to determine that on its own. We are in debate.

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12:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I am at a loss. I do not understand why there is such an embarrassment of that particular party with respect to its previous roots and previous name and its raison d'être for being back before the metamorphoses of whatever this new party is. However, I will get back to the debate.

I am very happy to speak to our issues and our points which were brought forward. Last Monday I was very proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Right Hon. Leader of the Conservative Party and with other members of the party to put forward to Canadians a blueprint, a road map, a strategy that would help Canadians overcome a crisis, the crisis being a terrible increase in gas prices which most Canadians cannot incorporate into their lives right now.

I will speak to those issues. First, when we brought these issues forward, the finance minister rather than saying yes, that they had the ability to help those people out, he said that they had to bring all of the provinces together before they could make any decisions. That is a political cop-out. That same finance minister came forward two days later and said we had a surplus of $12.3 billion in the fiscal year 1999-2000. For the first quarter of the fiscal year 2000-01 there is now an anticipated $13 billion surplus.

The finance minister should thank the member for Kings—Hants and the previous government for putting in the policies that allowed the finance minister to accumulate those surpluses. Those policies were free trade, the GST and an inflation rate that took interest rates to the point where we did not have to spend the majority of Canadian taxpayer dollars on the service and debt. Thankfully, the interest rates are low enough because of a policy that was put in by a previous government. I have not heard the finance minister thank us yet but I am sure it is on his agenda.

I also heard the finance minister make comparisons to liquor taxes, cigarette taxes and gasoline taxes. That is terrible. It is nonsense and it is ludicrous. Gasoline tax is not a luxury. Gasoline is the engine by which our economy is driven.

I had opportunity last night to speak to and meet with some truckers. Truckers drive our economy. Canada is a huge country with small populations over huge areas. It costs an awful lot of money to deliver goods and services across the country. Truckers are the lifeblood of our economy. Gasoline is not a luxury. It is what we depend on.

Also a misconception was raised yesterday during a telephone program in which I took part. One individual on that program said that there is and must be a risk management opportunity for truckers to put a gasoline surcharge into their contracts.

That is the misconception out there in the public. In the majority of contracts signed by the trucking industry, by independent truckers particularly, there is no ability to include a gasoline surcharge clause. If an independent trucker tried to include that in a contract, the contract would not be accepted and the trucker would not have a job.

The federal government today does not allow gasoline surcharges in its contracts. People in my constituency office have signed contracts with Canada Post, a crown corporation. Those contracts do not have a built in gas surcharge. When they sign a contract to move mail hundreds and hundreds of miles on a daily basis for Canada Post, they do so based on a contract price.

The unfortunate part is when the gas prices go up, as we have seen them go up in the past number of months, those costs are borne specifically by truckers. They are now doing the job for nothing. When they approached Canada Post to have a change in that contract they were told they had to live by the contract. There were, in fairness, some changes made and some dollars returned to the truckers but on a totally ad hoc basis with no logic associated to it at all.

The point I am trying to make is that there are no risk management tools of which truckers can take advantage. We would like to see the government show some leadership. It should stand and say that it respects the trucking industry, the agricultural industry, the mining industry, natural resources, and those people who are doing jobs for Canadians. It should try to do something to allay all the problems they are now facing with gas prices.

Some 1.5 cents per litre of gasoline is not the be-all and end-all, but it shows there is a government that cares and understands there is a problem. Truckers will not be made rich by a 2 cent diesel tax reduction, but it will make them feel that someone cares, someone is listening, and there is someone who can do something for them to show respect for what they are doing.

There is no such respect right now. All I have heard from the finance minister is that they cannot do it until the provinces come along or until the oil companies promise they will pass it on to consumers. That is a political cop-out, a pure political cop-out. We would like to see some leadership and some action taken.

Do we not think the provinces will follow suit? Do we not think the provinces will say that the federal government has finally done something to show it cares and that they will do that as well? There is political pressure within the provinces. Are there not enough smart people on that side of the House to make sure the gas companies pass that on to consumers?

Gas companies are not that stupid. They know that has to be passed on to consumers. We have said unequivocally as a party that we need action and we need action now.

We will support the motion that has been put forward simply because this is our motion. We would also like to say that there is one other very important component. That is taking the 7% GST off heating fuels, including natural gas and heating oils.

As was mentioned earlier in the discussions by the leader of this party, that would go directly to consumers. We know that. That cannot be attached in any way, shape or form by oil companies. It will specifically go to the people who need it going into this winter. It is September 21 today. It starts getting cold very soon.

Members of the governing party need some direction so that there is an opportunity to reduce those costs going into the winter months. I thank the House for the opportunity to speak to this very important and very valid issue. I wish they would also look at it as being a valid opportunity to put forward a request for the government to show leadership and to start going in the right direction.

The member for Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge said that this was not something new. He is absolutely correct that they have been working on it. The report was tabled in 1998 and contained some excellent recommendations. This is now September 2000 and none of those recommendations have been acted on. I wish they had been. When they come forward we will look at them and we will support them as well.

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12:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for the last part of his comments. It is clear that document was written two years ago, but it is important for the hon. member to understand what has happened.

Most of the recommendations in the report have already begun their very long and torturous road toward finalization with both the Conference Board of Canada and the public policy forum, not to mention the fact that there have been several bills. Some of them are close to becoming law, no thanks to the former member of his party who sat on the industry committee.

Notwithstanding the relative low profile the fuel issue has received until now, suddenly the Johnnies-come-lately in the Alliance discovered this was an issue. Given what happened in New Brunswick with the first and only example of a tax decrease, would the hon. member agree that the precedent set and agreed to by all parties, including the Conservatives along with the Liberal government of Frank McKenna of the day, concluded that there was some difficulty in ensuring that tax decreases would be passed on to consumers who so desperately needed them?

The resolution I have provided is tantamount to basically a rebate directly to people. Would it not be better than simply relying on the oil industry? As a consequence, would the hon. member not feel that what he is doing is nothing more than operating on the belief that oil companies would be honest enough to pass it on?

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12:50 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, I feel sorry for the hon. member, I really do. He is so cynical as to suspect that the removal of a 1.5 cent per litre excise tax, which was put in place initially to resolve the deficit issue, would automatically be taken up by gas companies and not passed on to consumers. That is true cynicism on behalf of that member. If we do not attempt to do that, it simply means that they are not prepared to try anything. Would it mean that the tax remains forever, that the 1.5 cents a litre has to remain forever?

The government could never get rid of it and, if it did, it would automatically go to the profits and bottom lines of oil companies. We as Canadians suspect that every tax placed on cigarettes, on liquor, on gas and on everything we do will never be changed because the government cannot do it in that the companies will take advantage of it.

The member also said that a lot of these recommendations were being implemented. That is cold comfort for the people who have not been benefactors of any of the tax reductions that should be taking place right now. Saying simply that we will look at and implement tax legislation is cold comfort for the people who will not be able to pay their heating fuel bills this coming winter.

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12:55 p.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the member of the Conservative Party. Before I ask it, I congratulate the leader of the Conservative Party on his maiden speech in the House of Commons.

I notice in the motion before us today by the Canadian Alliance that there is no reference to the very excessive profits of oil companies. Would the member for Brandon—Souris agree that maybe there is a relationship between this oversight and the fact that Alliance members are having a fundraising dinner in Toronto where they are charging $25,000 a table? Of course they will be sold to the corporate elite. That is different from the grassroots approach of the former leader of the Reform Party, who would not dream of having such a dinner.

Would the member agree that maybe it is just a coincidence or indicate whether or not there is a relationship between this $25,000 a table dinner where grassroots Canadians will not be found, except those serving the dinner, and the fact that they make no reference whatsoever to profit in the motion before us today?

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12:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Rick Borotsik Progressive Conservative Brandon—Souris, MB

Mr. Speaker, to be perfectly honest I cannot speak to the fundraising tactics of members of the Canadian reform conservative alliance party. If they want to associate or involve themselves with a certain sector of industry, that is fair ball for them. I do not have the privy or the insight as to their connections with that sector.

I do realize, however, a substantial number of their members come from Alberta. I suspect they have an awful lot of ties with the oil industry. That is to be expected. I also suspect that their fundraiser will be attended by any number of people. I expect a lot of grassroots populists will probably also be in attendance.

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12:55 p.m.

Okanagan—Coquihalla B.C.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian AllianceLeader of the Opposition

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to rise today to address an issue of prime importance to all Canadians. It is especially an honour for me to do this in what is known as my maiden speech.

Just bypassing any references or reflections to that, I do know that walking down this aisle the other day felt somewhat matrimonial. I found only seconds after that sense of great bonding among the people here. It did seem as if the honeymoon was over in a matter of seconds, so I will approach this speech in a similar manner.

I dearly and deeply thank the constituents of Okanagan—Coquihalla who have allowed me this opportunity, with a great demonstration of support, to be here to address an issue which actually I heard much about while I was campaigning in that riding in the byelection.

I also say a word of thanks to the voters of Red Deer, a previous constituency of mine, who over the years continued to support me and allowed me to work with others and find and discover in reality outside the theoretical laboratory that the principles we will discuss today in fact do work, not just in theory but in practicality.

The situation we are discussing today in terms of the possibility of seeing our gas taxes lowered is of very significant importance.

I believe that today there is an opportunity, for the federal government in particular, to show the public that we have members of parliament and a government that respect the taxpayer. It is an opportunity to provide our support in principle and to plan for the day we will be able to reduce the tax rate, not just on gasoline, but on other products as well.

It is a great opportunity to demonstrate to Canadians that not just the members of parliament here but the government itself respects hard work and understands the implications of high policies of taxation.

Let us be very clear about this, that just as ideas have consequences policies have consequences. Tax policies have consequences that are immediate and future and far reaching. As we look at the base of these discussions and the effect of gas taxes, we need to consider the broader base of taxation and build a platform of discussion so that we can see the importance of zeroing in on some taxes, whether it is a few at a time or in a broad measure. This is what the Canadian Alliance proposes to do.

I do not think anybody in this Chamber is standing and exclaiming that there should be no taxes anywhere. As a former minister of finance I would be grieved in my heart if I thought there would be no ability to get dollars from the taxpayers, but it has to be done in a way that is not just fair but seen to be fair. We recognize the need for taxes, but we also recognize that there is a point in time where the level of taxation actually becomes a disincentive and a discouragement to people. We need to be aware of that.

As a matter of fact, it was in this Chamber in 1917, during the first world war, that the concept of a tax on income was first discussed for the war effort. Canadians rallied to that. The original suggestion was that taxes would be implemented on income at a level of 2%. In the ensuing debate one of the hon. members commented that if we were to allow governments to begin to tax people at a rate of 2%, he said “Mark my words, the day will come when governments will tax people's income at maybe 3% or 4%”. Just as we are laughing now at where that has gone, that was the reaction of the day. We have gone far beyond that.

We recognize that taxes are necessary, but we have to be careful about the level. It was Jean Baptiste Colbert, the fine minister of finance for King Louis XIV who described taxation by saying that the art of taxation consists in plucking the goose in such a manner as to get the most amount of feathers with the least amount of hissing. He was being a very honest finance minister. I would never have suggested anything like that in my days as finance minister. I hope we will never see that from our federal minister.

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1 p.m.

An hon. member

We already have.

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1 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, we already have. I would say that the hissing has been going on for some time. We need to be careful about that.

Something we should know in terms of general principles related to taxation is that any jurisdiction which lowers its taxes will always experience a stimulus effect in the economy. It will always experience growth in the economy, more jobs, more opportunities, more businesses, businesses arriving in that jurisdiction and businesses deciding to stay and invest more. An increase in revenues will be seen going into that jurisdiction. Sometimes, as history notes, it is in the first or second year. Sometimes the revenues are forgone for more than a year, but the jurisdictions with lower taxes will always increase in terms of their revenues.

Let that be a dispelling of the myth which unfortunately some Liberals and others are trying to propagate, that lowering taxes means a weakening of our social structure and our social programs. It does not. It will bring more revenue to government for protection of social programs. If we truly believe in social security, we will be aggressive about lowering taxes.

We can look at history and we can make this non-partisan because I strive daily to make this a non-partisan Chamber and always think of the good of the country. We can talk about JFK, a Democrat, significantly lowering income taxes, and gas taxes would have the same effect, and we can see and track the revenue increase to the government coffers of that day. We can talk about Ronald Reagan, a Republican, so this is non-partisan, and a reduction in taxes and an increase in revenues. There was a corresponding increase in spending, and some say unfortunately especially on the defence side. But definitely and clearly there was an increase in revenues which many economists are now pointing to being the single greatest factor in what appears to be an unbroken approach in the business cycle and a great opportunity that we have seen in North America, unlike at any other time in history.

Moving to Canada, we can talk about Ontario. There is an amazing coincidence between reducing taxes and increased revenues to the government. We can talk about Alberta, which I will be happy to do in some detail in a moment.

We can talk about Ireland which is an Atlantic jurisdiction. For decades it has been very low in terms of productivity, income growth and opportunity. It has taken a very significant approach to the reduction of taxes. Yes, there was some subsidy input at the beginning but it has moved away from that. That gives great hope and opportunity to Atlantic Canada having seen other jurisdictions experience long term growth because of this particular approach. It will always work to lower taxes, increase opportunity and increase revenues to government.

If people do not mind, I will use the Alberta experience. In 1986 to 1993 there was an increase in taxes and a lack of corresponding response in the economy. From 1993 on there was a very significant reduction in taxes and an expansion not just of revenues but of the base economy.

I will tell the House how significant that was. In 1986 the total amount of income from corporate revenue coming from oil and gas in Alberta was 59%, a pretty significant portion of that corporate base. After six years of lowering taxes, from 1993 onward, there was a significant broadening of the base of the economy. New businesses such as high tech businesses came in. We looked at the 1998 results. In terms of reliance on one single resource area, only 21% of revenue from the corporate sector was from oil and gas. The economy was vastly expanded. It happened in Alberta and it is happening in Ontario. It happened in Ireland. It will continue to happen.

People have talked about advantages across the country. Do we not think it is time that we had the Canada advantage? As we look at the possibility of lowering these fuel prices, we are at an all-time high in history of revenues going to the government through various taxes. For the last seven years, over $1 trillion in revenues has gone to the government.

It is interesting to look at some of the comparisons, especially with G-7 and the OECD countries, groups of which we are members. I say this very dubiously but in the G-7 alone we have the proud distinction of having the greatest increase in taxes compared to economic growth of any of those countries. It is 14%. Fourteen per cent is not the amount of taxes individuals pay. As we know, depending on where we live it can be over 50% of our income. Canada has the greatest tax increase versus GDP increase, at 14%. That is not something to be proud of. The United States was only 11.6%, the U.K. was 8.8% and Japan was only 5.9%. These are not things of which we can be proud.

Canada has had the greatest increase in terms of the marginal rates for people moving from low income to middle income. We try to encourage people to move up that scale. However, there is a 14% increase in the marginal rate when they move from low income to middle income. That is disrespect for middle income earners and a significant disincentive.

If we do a comparison of 25 countries in the OECD, which nation had the greatest growth in GDP, the greatest expansion of the economy over the last 10 years? It was Ireland which had a 92% increase in its GDP over 10 years. Where is Canada in GDP growth? Out of the 25 nations, we proudly stand at number 24. We only had a 5% increase in our GDP growth because of taxation policies that are repressive.

If we want to measure in terms of labour productivity which is a very key indicator, one of the nations that leads in labour productivity is the United States. We are at only half of its rate in terms of increase of labour productivity. We are at the bottom of the list of OECD nations in terms of labour productivity. This is a very significant disincentive for our citizens.

With this reality in place, we need to look at where we can begin to send a signal to Canadians that this is a country in which they can work and be proud and labour and receive the rewards of their labours.

Let us look at gasoline taxes and a variety of approaches that we can take. We can look at lowering that excise tax 1.5 cents.

Just today it was recorded in a national newspaper. I do not want to advertise which one it was, but it was posted today in one of those national newspapers that the federal Minister of Finance said that the government has a moral obligation to lower that 1.5 cents off the excise tax, as we have suggested, because in 1995 it was put in place to reduce the deficit. The deficit is gone and the finance minister to his credit said there was a moral obligation to reduce that.

I am glad the Prime Minister wants to talk about values because his finance minister is saying it is a moral obligation, that it needs to be put back. I congratulate members who have talked about doing that and who have recommended doing that.

There is the issue of the GST. This is so insidious. With all the costs that are already on fuels, add on to that provincial taxes, add on to that the excise tax, and then insidiously put on top of that the GST, a tax on a tax on a tax.

It was at the University of Manitoba that Professor Nicolaou did the study in terms of pricing of gasoline. He said that the cascading effect of the GST, the tax upon tax upon tax alone would save Canadians 1.7 cents a litre if the GST was moved down just to below where other taxes are put on.

We are not even going after the Liberals for totally not acknowledging their promise to kill, scrap and abolish the GST. We are saying if they are not going to do that, could they at least move it down so that they are not punching people out at these different levels. We are asking for that.

There are truckers with long term contracts who face the inevitability of losing their businesses and their livelihoods. Let me make it very clear. We are suggesting this change not in the threat of a truckers strike. We talked about this before there was that threat. We are talking about this because it is the right thing to do.

A happy coincidence of moving in this area would be to alleviate the possibility of a truckers strike or slowdown, and also to see families and individuals with a great increase in confidence in their government because it was responding. We need to move that diesel tax downward also.

It is significant to note that small things can lead to great things happening. It was Demosthenes who said that by taking small opportunities one can lead to great enterprises. What greater enterprise than to send a signal of hope from coast to coast to coast?

Who would be affected by that signal of hope? The person who sent me an e-mail from Saudi Arabia who said there are many Canadians over there who consider themselves tax refugees because of the high levels of taxation in this country. It would send a message of hope to people whom I talked to throughout the summer across the country who said because of the Canadian Alliance position on taxes, they were going to delay their decision to move out of the country, or to move their business out of the country in the hopes that we would be elected and form the next federal government.

Let us turn the hissing of Canadians to cheering. Let them cheer the fact and let me invite members of the Liberal government to vote with us on this great motion, to say that they acknowledge that the government has huge surpluses and it is partly as a result of taxing people at too high a rate. The other reason the surplus is there is because of what has happened in a number of provinces that have their fiscal houses in order. They have reduced taxes, have rejuvenated economies and have created surpluses which then of course quite properly are shared with the nation. It is time for great enterprise.

I thank the members who are already indicating they will join in this great enterprise. I invite our Liberal counterparts to join also and send a message of hope and opportunity across this great nation of ours.

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1:15 p.m.

Edmonton Southeast Alberta

Liberal

David Kilgour LiberalSecretary of State (Latin America and Africa)

Mr. Speaker, as a fellow Albertan, I would most sincerely like to welcome the new Leader of the Opposition to the House, a fellow northern Albertan. The new leader does not consider himself to be a southern Albertan.

He mentioned Ireland at least twice in his talk. Does he not think that the free post-secondary education in Ireland has had a significant part in the Irish success story?

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would say that its emphasis on education has had a significant effect. In fact I am surprised to hear the member for Edmonton Southeast say that it is free. We know that there is no free lunch and there is no free education. That cost is being picked up somewhere.

However, I certainly would agree with him in terms of saying that everything we can do to maintain high education levels and research and development is something that should be followed. He is right from the point of view that Ireland's emphasis is on education but it is not free. The taxpayers pick up the cost.

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September 21st, 2000 / 1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, I want to commend the hon. Leader of the Opposition for his statements. I also want to commend him for his insight on an issue that we on this side have been working on for some years.

I wish, however, that the hon. member would perhaps take the time to read the rest of the document which has inspired his first foray into the question of taxes, that all ills can be resolved by dealing with gas taxes.

Given that the price of gasoline is rising as a result of the commodity, and given Dr. Nicolaou's views that the Canadian gasoline market is sheltered from competition and that this market disease is a profit boon to oil majors, would he not agree that it is better for the Government of Canada and the opposition to accept the motion that the member put forth this morning which tactically they denied through unanimous consent, and allow Canadians to receive the rebate, not the oil companies as a third party?

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, I first want to congratulate the hon. member for his work in this particular area.

Rebating is a legitimate form of returning to taxpayers that which has been taken from them in an excessive amount, as the federal Liberal government has been doing. I have even recommended that at various times in the past. As a matter of fact there is one government in the country which is now doing that.

The issue of the tax is the quickest, easiest and least administrative in terms of that particular reduction. I sense and share some of the concern that if the taxes are lowered, how do we keep the oil companies in line from, as I have been quite properly quoted as saying, filling in that particular ditch.

I would say that the federal government has the clout to sit down with oil companies, and far from presuming that that would happen, give those companies the benefit of the doubt, tell them there will be a very close monitoring and allow that to happen. However, administratively the signals could be sent out immediately through the tax process.

I again commend the member for continuing to advocate this. I am not sure how he will be voting. I am sure the history of a previous member on his side, who raised the concern about taxes, haunts him somewhat considering where that member is not today. However, sir, I commend you for your courage and insights on this issue.

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1:15 p.m.

The Speaker

I would remind all hon. members to please remember the Chair when they are answering.

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Janko Peric Liberal Cambridge, ON

Mr. Speaker, could the hon. Leader of the Opposition tell us how many times he reduced the provincial tax on gas in the province of Alberta while he was the minister of finance?

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Stockwell Day Canadian Alliance Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Mr. Speaker, I, honestly, have lost track of the number of taxes, fees and costs that I specifically reduced in Alberta. I will produce a definite list for the member because it is quite exciting that my colleagues and I were able to do that.

On the issue of the gas tax itself, when that question came up as the price of oil started to move up over the last year, my proposal clearly was that it should be for a rebate rather than the tax because of the lack of ability of a province to harness those national companies around a table and tell them they would be monitoring it.

The consideration at that time was not to go the tax route but to send out to all consumers, to everyone in the province, a rebate. That took place about three or four weeks ago. I was gone by then so I cannot claim the full credit for it, but that was my approach and that is what has taken place.