moved:
Motion No. 50
That Bill C-8, in Clause 28, be amended by replacing line 10 on page 17 with the following:
“in evidence only with proof of the signature or”
Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to get up and carry on with the debate on the motions in Group No. 3.
As I said earlier about Group No. 2, and I think some of these clauses refer to that as well, Canadian Heritage does seem a bit puzzling. I listened carefully to the committee chair's speech earlier about the fact that this is about preservation and making sure, for present and future generations, that this should fall under Canadian Parks. Of course we want to make sure future generations get to enjoy these marine conservation areas, but again, I do not think the government has come to grips with the very basics of it.
As I mentioned earlier when I finished up my remarks, if we are going to look at mineral resource extraction from these areas, the government says now, i.e. in the future, it would make sure it put the boundaries of these marine conservation areas in place so that it did not disrupt any mineral or resource extraction. Yet if we talk about future generations, what is going to happen if in seven months, ten years or fifty-three years we come up with some amazing technological device that is able to find, harvest and extract some of these resources or minerals? What do we do then? I believe the bill says it would be in perpetuity, that they would say “Sorry, we have a marine conservation area here and we cannot do a thing about it. It is there forever”.
I am pleased to see the member is looking through her notes. I hope she will be able to straighten that out and let us know that if in future years another Hibernia, for instance, were to come along there would be room in the bill for it. We are all very familiar with that. I think that would be a major thrill for everybody.
Let me refer specifically under Group No. 3 to Motion No. 18, which specifies that a marine conservation area management plan would have to take into account not only ecosystem protection but also academic research, recreational use, geological surveys, natural resources exploitation and visitor use. Each one of those would include a huge area of concern, consultation and advisory committees.
It is one thing to talk about advisory committees, but it does seem strange sometimes that a government may be only keen to take one side of advice. I mentioned earlier a couple of committees that were struck today, right in this place. The government gave its word that it would just be electing chairs, nothing more. Then all of a sudden, once the Liberals got to the committees they sat down, and I am sure were having coffee and a pleasant visit, and the next thing we knew they wanted to deal with a couple of bills.
It does seem strange. When someone gives their word and their commitment, I would like to be able to take it as such. Surely it is not a good thing when people go back on their word. We would want to make sure when the government says advisory committees would be put in place and consultations would take place that we would get both sides of the equation.
My friend from northern Vancouver Island just made comments about some folks who came down from British Columbia as witnesses. Dear knows, that is a large part of the country. If we are talking about marine conservation, there is plenty of water out in B.C. They should be given the opportunity to give their advice, to participate in those consultations. But what happens?
It does not fit with the government's little agenda. It thanks them for coming in one of those big jets that gives lots of pollution. It is talking about the environment now. It thanks for them coming anyway and says that they can be shipped home.
Another thing the bill fails to do is strike a balance between environmental protection and other interests. Of course we need to weigh the pros and cons. If this is basically falling under national parks, surely we can look at the national parks. My home province of Alberta I think has about 60% of the land mass of the national parks in the country. Somewhere, somehow, we need to strike a balance between environmental preservation and human enjoyment of this.
I know the Minister of Canadian Heritage, under whose purview the bill falls, has made a trip to Banff, has made a trip to Jasper, and certainly has looked at the balance between environment and other interests. I know she has certainly some concerns about it, as everyone does. Although she will talk about scheduling delays or defaults or something or other, our minister for tourism, the Hon. Jon Havelock, has been waiting and wanting to meet with the hon. minister for some time now.
I am not sure if I can use the word stonewalling, but I think that certainly would be the sentiment he has in his desire to meet with the Minister of Canadian Heritage. Even though we are landlocked in Alberta, if this whole marine conservation area goes ahead certainly Alberta would express some of those very same concerns.
When talking about consultation, surely from the provincial level to the federal level, we should have consultations between ministers. It seems to me fairly simple. I mentioned earlier the struggle between federal and provincial negotiations and whose power supersedes whose. The member across tried to make us feel better or allay the fears or concerns by saying everything would be up to negotiation and everyone would just sit down and have coffee and a happy time and come up with an agreement.
I see members from B.C. across the way. I am dying to know if the member over there has felt very comfortable in the fact that her provincial government has worked with the federal government and everything is going along just tickety-boo. I will bet 10 bucks she would not, as a matter of fact. When these negotiations are being talked about, surely my minister, the Hon. Jon Havelock, is not the only one being shunned when we are talking about federal-provincial consultations and negotiations.
It is great to throw around that we are to consult and have advisory committees, but it is a very dangerous thing just to say “I will consult with the people who agree with me, and I do not really like listening to those other guys on the other side”. Surely we need to make sure that does not go on.
Talking about the very tenuous balance between environment and sustainable development, there are people who go to Jasper and just love to spend a night or two in Jasper Park Lodge. I gave up tenting many years ago, having grown up on the west coast and having spent far too much time in a wet tent when I was young. I am sure there are others besides me who love to go to Jasper and do some skiing or whatever, and who want to stay in a hotel. That may be terribly capitalistic, but at the same time they want to make sure they have a chance to wander around Jasper Park Lodge or some of the fine hotels in that area, or Lake Louise or Banff.
I would also bet 10 bucks that a lot of members of the government have had a wonderful visit to one of the national parks, Banff or Jasper. I would also bet they stayed in one of those capitalistic, entrepreneurial places such as a hotel and ate in restaurants. I will bet they did not set up their Coleman stoves and just rough it, although it is a wonderful thing to do; it is great.
Many people need to realize there is a balance between environmental concerns and making sure that when they want to make use of those places or buy souvenirs for their children some of those places are in those parks, with a balance, of course.
When we talk about present and future generations we want to make sure we balance these environmental concerns. That is absolutely essential. However, they must be balanced with the interests of those individuals affected by the creation of particular marine conservation areas. People live in the area. People fly their float planes over this area, as we talked about earlier.
I asked the people who were giving me briefings what would happen with jet boats, for instance. They said “We are not going to prohibit boats, but if in future times we decide jet boats are too noisy, or heaven forbid, Sea-Doos, we may be able to have the minister with the power to do so”. Sure, she could work in conjunction with the Minister of Transport, the Minister of the Environment, and the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans. It all comes out of the same cat. If on the government side they decide they do not like Sea-Doos and they do not like big, noisy jet boats, they can just put a prohibition on them.
People are used to that lifestyle, and many of those who live in these proposed marine conservation areas are very responsible. I do not think people want to live there or holiday there just to take advantage of those areas. Many of those people are as environmentally concerned as any government member. We need to make sure the individuals who are affected by it would be able to have an amazing amount of input.
This is where I closed my remarks the last time I was speaking. There is a lack of adequate consultation with resources groups, aviation groups and other stakeholders. We should be able to tell them we will listen to their concerns. What about those who make their living by flying float planes up and down the B.C. coast, for instance, or the Atlantic coast?
The minister may all of a sudden say to them “We are going to consult with you. In other words, we will sort of listen for five minutes, but we already have the order in council or the regulations drawn up, and you too will be out of business”. Surely that is not a good balance in making sure we can live harmoniously in some of these areas.
I look forward to the members' concerns about this and certainly possible solutions to the very real concerns. These are not just my concerns. As I say, I live in landlocked Alberta, and I am not sure we are looking at too many marine conservation areas. However, people from the west coast, the east coast and the Great Lakes will need these very real concerns addressed, and unfortunately I have yet to hear any of them being addressed.