House of Commons Hansard #114 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was wheat.

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Canadian Commercial Corporation ActGovernment Orders

5:30 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The vote stands deferred until tomorrow at 3 o'clock.

The House resumed from November 8 consideration of the motion that Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada, be read the third time and passed, and of the amendment.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

5:35 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dave Chatters Canadian Alliance Athabasca, AB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to Bill C-10. Certainly I have been following the bill for months and months and it seems I have not had the opportunity to address the bill from my perspective and from the perspective of my critic area, which is oil, gas and energy.

I believe it is very obvious that Bill C-10 has the potential to have a very negative impact on the rights of British Columbians to explore and develop their offshore resources to the benefit of all British Columbians. It is indeed a privilege to be able to explore that side and those aspects of the bill.

Having listened for months and months to the debate around the bill, there are any number of clauses and intentions of it that I could spend a lot of time on. In particular, I find it difficult to understand how the bill ended up under the heritage portfolio. We could talk about that literally forever, in exclusion of everything else.

I would like to focus on the issues that are within my specific area of interest, that being oil and gas development and how that development is treated in these potential conservation areas. Clause 13 of the bill states:

No person shall explore for or exploit hydrocarbons, minerals, aggregates or any other inorganic manner within a marine conservation area.

As the official opposition critic for natural resources, I cannot help but have my attention drawn to that one clause. The more research we have done on it, the more I am convinced that the bill, and particularly that clause, is bad legislation. It really does not require any more description than that. It is just bad legislation.

The bill gives the minister of heritage the right to designate certain areas within the Queen Charlotte basin, beneath Eastern Graham Island, the offshore shelf of Hecate Strait, Queen Charlotte Sound and the Dixon entrance as marine conservation areas and by doing so blocks forever more the possibility of those areas being explored for oil and gas.

It is true that there have been federal and provincial moratoria in place in these areas for 50 years. However the province, particularly the new Liberal government in British Columbia, has been looking at the possibility of removing the moratorium to allow for exploration. Bill C-10 will remove the need for the province to even consider their actions as the government will simply designate the area a marine conservation area and so it will remain forever.

While unilateral decision making is nothing new to this government, this decision should at least be shared with the province as it could have dramatic economic results in a province that is already teetering on the edge of becoming a have not province thanks to the federal government's handling of the softwood lumber issue.

It should also be noted that the Geological Survey of Canada has estimated that the undiscovered potential for all of the plays in the west coast basins of Canada is between nine and ten billion barrels of in place oil and 40 trillion to 45 trillion cubic feet of natural gas. That means that the potential of the region could rival that of the east coast, an area where industry is well under way with extremely successful results. In fact the west coast could produce some of the largest gas fields ever found in Canada and with demand for natural gas sources increasing, such a potential provides exciting possibilities.

Using usual median projections multiplied by October 2000 world prices, specialists estimate that the value of oil could be as high as $55 billion U.S. and gas at $40 billion U.S. Furthermore, the total downstream value of the resource, including the additional wealth that would be generated in or attracted to the region by the arrival of an offshore oil industry, could be close to $500 billion U.S. Spread over a 30 year period or longer, the annual revenues to British Columbia might be as high as $3 billion U.S. directly from production and $15 billion U.S. in total downstream benefits.

These figures cannot be ignored during a time when British Columbia is experiencing devastating layoffs and cutbacks due to the decimation of the softwood lumber industry there and the years of NDP extravagance and financial mismanagement, as well as the collapse of the softwood lumber industry.

I would like to give the House a few examples of how oil and gas exploration development could impact upon some of the local communities. Prince Rupert is a likely choice for the headquarters of any infrastructure that would need to be built to support the exploration and drilling phases. A report that was commissioned by the B.C. government and released in October of this year stated that the community of Prince Rupert, with a population of 17,000, had a 10 year growth rate average of .2% and that 25% of the district of Skeena, Queen Charlotte, which includes Prince Rupert, relied on forestry as its primary economic support.

Obviously forestry can no longer be counted on for economic growth as mills all over the province of British Columbia are closing, leaving workers and families without any means of financial support.

Another example of an area that could certainly use an injection of resource dollars is the community of Port Hardy, located within the regional district of Mount Waddington. With a population of 5,228, Port Hardy accounts for 35% of the region's population. In total over the last 10 years the region has experienced a .3% growth. The economy of Port Hardy relies heavily on forestry and will no doubt struggle in the coming days to find an alternative industry to support the community.

Certainly the discovery of offshore oil and gas resources would provide desperately needed economic injections into communities like Port Hardy and Prince Rupert. While the communities would not see any immediate financial improvements in the exploration phase, should the resources be found, the production stage could certainly see these communities flourishing from the various associated benefits such as infrastructure and training.

Within British Columbia, and particularly in the northern coastal communities, there is definitely public support for exploration of oil and gas. A recent general poll found that 64% supported offshore exploration. The number was even higher in the northern coastal communities. Obviously the support is there, but with this piece of legislation the government will permanently remove the possibility of exploration.

At this point I should not be surprised when the government turns its back on the needs and potential of western Canadian communities. I had hoped, however, that with such desperate hopes hanging on the possibility of oil and gas development, the government might at least have kept the door open rather than slamming it shut on all the families who live in Prince Rupert, Port Hardy and so many other British Columbia communities.

Since his election, the American president has been making noises about a continental energy plan with the intention of reducing American dependence on Middle East oil. The events of September 11 and the war that has followed only gives further impetus to the plan of President Bush. I would imagine that the Canadian government will face enormous pressure from the U.S. in the coming days, months and years to meet its energy demands.

As we saw in the softwood lumber talks, the Liberals have a long tradition of rolling over to the demands of Americans. No doubt when the Americans come knocking, this Liberal government will be falling over themselves to find a way to meet those demands. Obviously the potential resource off the British Columbia coast could be a key component to that plan, but once the bill has passed the Americans will have to look to other communities for oil and gas resources.

I am certainly very proud of the contribution my riding of Athabasca makes to meeting the North American energy demand. However, as the potential resource of the oil fields exceeds the entire reserves of Saudi Arabia, I think we are in a position to certainly share the wealth. However, if the government decides that it will turn its back on potential community and provincial development for British Columbia, despite the many pleas that have come from those community representatives, there is little that we on this side of the House can do to stop it. After all, I am sure that the Minister of Canadian Heritage, in her role of advancing Canadian culture, celebrating our heritage, embracing our identity and her hectic schedule of hosting visiting dignitaries, has found the time to consider the plight of struggling northern coastal communities.

Except on November 21 perhaps she will not have time because she will be too busy celebrating world television day, which is certainly vital to those communities on the northern coast of British Columbia.

I am sure there are members in the House and environmentalists who will accuse me of ignoring the potential environmental threat that exists with our offshore exploration and development. I can say with full confidence that I am aware of the dangers of exploration having been involved in the industry myself for many years. If it is done in a manner that does not account for the particular ecosystem of the area there certainly could be some dangers.

However there have been exhaustive studies on the aquaculture and bioculture of the area in question and, evidently, unlike the Liberal government, I have the faith in our regulatory system and Canadian industries' ability to act in a responsible and sensitive manner.

Environmental concerns are certainly par for the course when we talk about exploration and production of oil and gas, yet worldwide, scientists, industry and governments manage to form partnerships that ensure the survival of the marine ecosystem. Canada has one of the best regulatory structures in the world and has a tremendous track record.

The Canada-Nova Scotia Offshore Petroleum Board and the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board both require environmental assessment before any authorization for exploration is given and further assessments are required for every stage of the development and production process. The assessments are all triggered by the regulation under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act so obviously the CNSOPB and CNOPB have the interests of the environment at the core of their activities.

While the operations on the west coast would be monitored by the National Energy Board, the National Energy Board would have similar structures in place to ensure the environmental integrity of the British Columbia coast.

The strict approach of the two offshore petroleum boards to all environmental issues have ensured that Canada's east coast development leaves the smallest footprint possible, and obviously the knowledge and ability exists in Canada to make sure that the same thing happens on the west coast.

Industry also willingly takes on the challenge of operating in a fashion that will not destroy sensitive environment, and the oil and gas industry in particular has a stellar reputation for developing technology to accomplish environmental goals.

The sharing of technology worldwide ensures that when exploration occurs, it is done with the most technologically advanced, environmentally friendly methods possible. I will not get into the various challenges that would certainly be faced on the B.C. coast but I would like to point out that in all reports that have been done off the B.C. coast, every single one states that there is not a single reason that would prevent industry from going ahead with exploration as long as it is done in a responsible and sensitive manner.

If Canada can drill off the east coast in a sensitive ecosystem that includes challenges, such as massive icebergs and terrible infrastructure crushing storms, and do it in a manner that is environmentally sensitive, I certainly have confidence that we can do the same off the west coast.

The report released in October by the British Columbia provincial government makes particular reference to the rapid technological advances that have been made in the last 20 years by the oil and gas industry. It also makes reference to how safety and environmental records of the offshore oil and gas drilling have improved significantly in recent years. It goes on to urge regulatory agencies to avoid excessive reliance on prescriptive regulations because such regulations could restrict innovative solutions.

It seems to me that Bill C-10, and in particular clause 13, is an excellent example of what could be called prescriptive legislation. The bill ignores the needs of communities that are literally dying in northeastern British Columbia. It ignores the advances in technology, experience and knowledge that allows the oil and gas industry to drill in a responsible manner. The element that disturbs me the most is that it totally disregards the advances that could be made in the future.

The government is always making noises about how much faith it has in the future of Canada and the ability of Canada to compete in a world market that progresses at breakneck speed.

The legislation would drive all international interests out of British Columbia because it would remove the potential for exploration in B.C.'s offshore forever and should foreign investors wish to take this as a sign of Canada's position on foreign investment spells even more difficult days for British Columbia and Canada in the future.

Furthermore, by refusing to allow the possibility of drilling for huge oil and gas reserves at any time in the future, the government is closing the door to business with the U.S.

Finally, I believe that clause 13 essentially tells Canadians that the government does not believe that our industries, in partnership with all levels of government, can operate in a responsible, progressive and environmentally sound manner despite evidence to the contrary that is proved every day off the east coast of Canada and around the world.

My colleague from Skeena has worked very hard to try to make changes to this bill that would ensure that it does not permanently cripple the offshore oil and gas industry off the coast of British Columbia and various other improvements to the bill. Unfortunately the government is not interested in the excellent ideas of the members across the floor. Instead, we have a piece of legislation called Bill C-10 that, thanks to the usual legislative tactics of the government, will pass whether it is good or not. Certainly that is typical of how the legislation goes through the system here. It is no different from other bills that I am dealing with and that we have dealt with in the past.

Therefore I certainly will not be supporting the legislation and I urge other members of the House to reconsider the value of the bill and the damage it could do to the economies of British Columbia and Canada and also oppose the legislation.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Madam Speaker, is my colleague from Athabasca aware of the number of marine conservation areas that have been slated for British Columbia? He speaks as if marine conservation areas will be established on every part of the coast of British Columbia so that no oil and gas exploration will be possible. Nothing is further from the truth. He talks about international investment being driven out by Bill C-10. What a terrible exaggeration.

Maybe I should quote from the correspondence between the present minister of energy and mines in British Columbia, Mr. Neufeld, and the Minister of Canadian Heritage in which she explained that there were only three areas of interest for marine conservation areas along the Pacific coast.

The first one, Gwaii Haanas, has been a fait accompli since 1988. The second one, the Strait of Georgia, is the subject of a federal-provincial agreement and a matter of joint study in the coming years. The third one of interest is in the mid-coast area.

The Minister of Canadian Heritage has assured Mr. Neufeld that she will work together with his government as the item is studied. It takes eight years to set up one of these marine conservation areas.

The heritage minister's correspondence goes on to say:

It is not the federal government's desire to establish marine conservation areas in areas of high potential for oil and gas discoveries. We will work with you to avoid potential future conflict in this area.

The bill is full of caveats about building these new marine conservation areas. There are only three in B.C., two of which are now a matter of joint study. The third one will be a matter of joint study. In any case, clause 5 would require total agreement by the province. Clause 10 would impose consultation on the federal government with the province and there is referral to both Houses and to standing committees. I think the member will agree that his case is one of total exaggeration of the facts.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

5:50 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dave Chatters Canadian Alliance Athabasca, AB

Madam Speaker, I would suggest to the member who just spoke that there is a lot in the bill that relies on trust between the federal government and the provincial government of British Columbia. I too met with Mr. Neufeld in Victoria to discuss his government's position on the bill.

Unfortunately, the history of federal-provincial relations, particularly when it deals with the energy industry, is not one that builds trust in the provinces. I could go through a long list but a couple of them come to my mind. One recent agreement was the federal-provincial agreement on the Kyoto accord on climate change in Regina. When the federal government went to Kyoto it totally abandoned the agreement it had made with the provinces and signed on to an agreement that was entirely different than what it had agreed on with the provinces.

Members can look at various phrases in the bill. I was part of some of the committee work and have read the transcripts of much more of the committee, and the same kind of rhetoric was flying around there about how the federal government would not act unilaterally and that it would consult the provinces.

Yes, if the government were wise it would do that. However, a lack of trust exists with the federal government because of its tendency to act unilaterally even though under the terms of the supreme court agreement dealing with the Hibernia project off the east coast of Canada, it is pretty clear that legally it has the right to act unilaterally and to move to ban the development of offshore development. I think the term was anything outside of the low water mark on Canada's coasts.

Given that the federal government has the legal right to do that and given its history and record, if I were a provincial minister or a premier it would be a cold day before I would accept as a fact that the government would negotiate, consult and act in the best interests of that province. I simply do not believe it.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Madam Speaker, is the member aware of an amendment proposed by the member for Dewdney--Alouette concerning consultation on any proposed agreement. Has the member read the legislation? Has he read clause 5 and clause 10 of the legislation?

Clause 10 states that “the minister shall consult with” provinces on any proposed agreement. Any proposed agreement means any agreement whether the federal government has total jurisdiction or not.

The member for Dewdney--Alouette had to concede that this was a big step forward. In fact because of it he decided to back the legislation. Is the member aware of the amendment and the fact that the federal government is bound to consult the province on any proposed agreement, whether the federal government has full jurisdiction or not?

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

5:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dave Chatters Canadian Alliance Athabasca, AB

Madam Speaker, I have read the bill and I concede that terminology is there. I guess the problem I have is what constitutes consultation.

As I said, the government has a history of a pretence of consultation and then acting unilaterally. On that basis I am sorry to say that I cannot accept the bill without some legal requirements that a marine conservation area cannot in fact be created and designated without the approval of the provinces. Should that be there then the consultation has some meaning.

However, the bill only states that the federal government shall consult. If those consultations break down or are not fruitful, it has the legal right to act as it chooses and it has demonstrated a willingness to do that.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Werner Schmidt Canadian Alliance Kelowna, BC

Madam Speaker, I commend my hon. colleague for the way in which he analyzed the bill and the things he told the House.

There is one point that comes through loud and clear and I would like him to elaborate on it further. It has to do with the word balance, the balance between economic development and exploration of natural resources, in this case oil and gas, and the preservation of our ecology and our environment.

The hon. member opposite raised some very real questions that were similar to the ones I had. We do not want to destroy the environment. It is so easy to take the position and say that if one is opposed to Bill C-10, one is against the environment and one is against all that sort of thing. That is not the point at all, at least I do not think so, but I would like the hon. member to respond.

How does the hon. member bring about a balance and put that balance into legislation so that every possible step is taken to get that balance in place rather than to have the consultation going one way and the decision going the other way? The power then rests out here, which has nothing to do with the consultation in the first place. Would he care to comment on that?

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dave Chatters Canadian Alliance Athabasca, AB

Madam Speaker, that comes right back to the crux of the issue. That is the argument. One extreme is the preservationist movement that would ban all economic development because no matter how hard we try industrial development inevitably leaves a footprint. The other end of the argument is industry that would have it its own way and would harvest those resources with little regard for the environment. That has happened in the past and I have seen instances with my own eyes where that has been the case.

The reality is that what we have to look for in Canada in the interest of job creation, wealth creation and the ability to maintain the standard of living we enjoy is a balance between the two. We need a balanced approach to leave as light a footprint as we possibly can and at the same time maximize the return in jobs and wealth created from those resources. The people of British Columbia want to work at creating that balance rather than following the preservationist movement as far as this is concerned.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

6 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Speaker, it was interesting to listen to the last exchange between the Alliance and the Liberals and to their positions. Let me immediately put our party's position on the record. The legislation does not go far enough.

The balance we are talking about and to which my friend referred at the end of his comments has not been achieved. The bill is about a failed opportunity on the part of the government. The opportunity we had was to do what we did with our on land parks: to create reserves offshore much as we have over the last century onshore. The bill would not do that.

We had the opportunity to produce a bill which would provide real protection to marine habitat, species and delicate ecosystems. The bill does not accomplish any of those goals.

We all expect the bill will go through given the majority government, but when it becomes law it will leave us way behind where a number of other nations have gone up to this point. The whole movement in Europe, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and other countries that have similar economic development to ours started and got going quite strongly 20 or 25 years ago. However it followed a pattern we are not following and created reserves where there were no human footprints.

My friends in the Alliance and the government have missed this point. Activity by itself creates problems. We have seen it on land. We have seen it when we run a road through a national park or when we allow some incursion by forestry and mining companies. The same thing will happen if we do not prohibit manufacturing, industrial and commercial types of activities in these areas. The bill would not prohibit that.

I draw the attention of the House to a statement published by 161 leading marine scientists and experts on marine ecosystems. All signatories to the statement hold Ph.D. degrees and are employed in neutral settings. They are not employed by government, in industrial settings or involved in commercial activity. The only thing they were concerned about was the preservation of the natural environment in marine reserves.

The statement gives us some guidelines and targets to shoot at in what we should be doing with this type of legislation. It details some of the things we have learned by looking around the world at reserves elsewhere and what they have accomplished.

I will go through a few of those points. Reserves elsewhere have resulted in long lasting and rapid increases in the abundance, diversity and productivity of marine organisms. What they found when they did their research in the reserves was a decrease in mortality, a decrease in habitat destruction and an indirect positive effect on the ecosystem.

The statement showed there was a substantial reduction in the probability of extinction for marine species worldwide. I go back to some of the comments we heard from the Alliance. I do not know how we can put a dollar price on the extinction of a species. It is the wrong analysis and just does not work. A good deal of the positive effects the member was alluding to are not accurate in the sense that a good deal of those dollars do not end up in the communities. A great deal of those dollars goes offshore.

Let me go back to some of the other things the marine scientists found as they looked at reserves around the world. They said the size of the reserve was important but even small reserves were able to produce positive effects on the environment.

One of the major points brought out in the published statement was the importance of full protection. A major flaw in the bill is that full protection is not there. It is said that it requires adequate enforcement and public involvement. The study concluded that marine conservation areas, which is what the government is talking about, do not provide the same benefits as reserves because full protection is not there.

There was another interesting point made about adjacent areas from the results of the survey and studies that had been done. The study referred to the spillover effect into adjacent oceans beside reserves.

The same type of result was seen. The size and the abundance of species increased in the adjacent areas. Similar results were found if one went beyond the immediate adjacent areas referred to as buffer zones and into the general area called the regional area. The population of the species in that area was replenished to significant degrees even in a widely dispersed area.

Another part of the statement which the scientists tried to draw to the attention of the government when the bill was put forward was the importance of networks. We have seen the need for viable biodiversity on land and the need for the exchange that has to occur between species. It is important to look at the creation of a network of parks so that species can move back and forth. The bill before us does not address that.

Some conclusions were drawn and I would like to cover a few of them. I want to go back to the importance of the reserves and protected conservation areas. Using that type of analysis and approach is simply not sufficient. It does not accomplish the goals. If we had followed that process with our land parks in Canada a good deal of them would not be viable today. We will see the same thing happen in marine conservation areas if we follow the methodology proposed in the bill.

Scientists raised the importance of a dedicated program to monitor and evaluate both the impact within the reserve area and outside its boundary so we could see if it was having the same effect in our territorial waters as it had elsewhere in the world.

We also talked about the importance of the reserves acting as a benchmark. What we would be doing, and this goes back to scientific research in these areas, is that we would be using the reserves to compare what was happening in the rest of the seas and oceans adjacent to our boundaries. We would be able to say what we have been able to do by building this reserve and that it is not working out for the rest of the oceans. We could be asked why and perhaps do something to preserve species elsewhere.

Again I go back to the point about the networks. Their argument was very strong that without them and by isolating the reserves to one or two it simply would not be sufficient. We would lose the biodiversity we require.

I will now turn to some of the specific points missing in the bill. I will start by making a comment on some of the speeches given by members of the governing party. Two or three of them alluded to the fact that this was not an environmental bill, that it was not about the environment. I think they used that kind of terminology. That is very true. They were being honest and accurate in their appraisal of what the bill was about, because it is certainly not about protecting the environment. It does not do that.

I moved an amendment to the bill that would incorporate ecological integrity into the analysis whenever we were looking at developing one of these areas. It was not allowed by the governing party, which again reflects its attitude toward the bill.

I am not really sure what it is trying to do with it. I might suggest that it is mostly a charade or a bit of a farce in that it is putting forth to the country that it is dealing with the problem, that it has a concern about the environment and offshore waters, that this is what it is doing about it and that this will take care of it. That is not being honest.

I also point out some specific additional protections. Unlike my friends from the Alliance, I do not want to take out clause 13. I would like to put some more protections into the bill. I will go through a few of them.

Let me deal with some of the ones we proposed. One is at the top of my list because of what is currently happening off the east coast of Canada, in particular in the maritimes, and what has happened over the last few years. Specifically some major research has been done this summer about deep sea cold water coral that has been, I almost have to say, discovered.

For a long time there was belief within the scientific community that little or perhaps no coral existed in those cold waters, as opposed to what is found in southern climes where there are very large coral reefs. In fact they have been assessed and this summer in particular major research was done on them.

In fact submersibles went down quite deep and brought back pictures. Sadly the research showed big gaps in the coral reef. It was just all gone.

In their industrial operations deep sea trawlers were coming through and literally ripping the coral off the seabed as they did their dragging. This was seen repeatedly and researchers were able to demonstrate it in videos and photographs they took this summer.

Our party had sought an amendment to the bill that would prohibit this type of activity in these types of conservation areas. The amendment was defeated by the government. This type of trawling and dragging will be a permitted activity within the areas when we proceed to set them up. The destruction of coral within the areas will continue.

I will make one more point to set this in some kind of context. The coral has been assessed at being between 2,000 and 3,000 years old. It is only two to three feet high but it is 2,000 to 3,000 years old. We need only imagine what will happen to it if we continue to allow this kind of trawling and dredging.

We also sought amendments that would prohibit other activities. I recognize that not much time is left but I will touch on those.

Although the bill would prohibit the exploration and trapping of oil and mining deposits it would not prohibit oil or gas pipelines through these areas. We must appreciate the impact that kind of activity would have. We must appreciate what the construction of an oil or gas pipeline through a conservation area like this or, it is hoped, someday a reserve like this, would do to the ecosystem.

It is not a prohibited activity. It can be allowed at any time. There is no prohibition against the use of blasting or the detonation of explosives. A fair amount of it goes on during subsurface exploration for oil, gas and minerals.

The use of blasting equipment is particularly damaging to all species, whales, et cetera, which use natural sonar to guide them. It drives them out of the area. It literally destroys their habitat because they can no longer function in the area and they leave. It is total destruction.

This goes back to what my colleague from the Alliance said about the footprint. He can talk all he wants about the technology the oil and gas industry has developed. There is some accuracy to that. It is a much safer industry than it was 10 or 20 years ago. However the reality is that it still uses these types of devices in the exploration phase. This has an impact on the ecosystem and some species that is not minimal but major. It drives them out of the area.

There are few provisions in the bill to prohibit the depositing of foreign substances into these areas, although there are some. However there is a clause that would allow the government to waive any prohibition in that regard. It does not take much imagination to think of the impact if we began to dump sludge and a number of other items into these areas.

In conclusion I will go back to the commencement. There was an opportunity here on the part of the government to do something meaningful to protect our offshore ecosystems. By what it does not incorporate in terms of ecological integrity or prohibit in terms of activities in these zones the bill is clearly a missed opportunity, one the country will pay for during the next number of generations.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

November 19th, 2001 / 6:20 p.m.

Bloc

Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral Bloc Laval Centre, QC

Madam Speaker, I listened with interest to the speech of my colleague from the New Democratic Party. Once again, with Bill C-10, we are faced with what can be considered as a characteristic of the present government, that is a total inability to work in co-operation. Once more, this government will interfere in areas outside its jurisdiction to take over and to show the maple leaf flag, and to pose as the great protector of the environment.

I agree with my colleague when he says that this bill is not about the quality of the environment. I would still like to hear his comments on a topic that I am really concerned about.

Many departments are concerned with marine conservation areas and bodies of water. Fisheries and Oceans Canada deals with the marine protection areas and so is Environment Canada. And Heritage Canada is now joining in.

How can we justify the fact that three different departments are dealing with the same issue when we all know that the government can not work in co-operation with the provinces, and I am not talking only about Quebec, but about all provinces?

I would like my colleague to explain to me how this government could try to act in a united and intelligent fashion to protect the environment.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Madam Speaker, there are two parts to the question asked by my colleague from the Bloc, at least in my perception. I will address it in those two ways.

First, concerning the whole question of consultation I agree with the member. At the same time the bill has been working its way through the committee and now into the House we have also been working on a bill regarding endangered species, the so-called SARA legislation.

It is interesting to look at the amount of consultation that has been built into the endangered species bill. It is a lot longer than this one. It has many more sections and pages. A good deal of them address the issue of consultation. The consultative process provided for by SARA is much more meaningful than the process provided for by this bill. It has few provisions and quite frankly they are fairly superficial.

Second, I will give two answers to the question of why there are three departments; fisheries and oceans, environment and now heritage. It is an excellent question. I will not even pretend to defend the government's answer that we got at committee stage because there was not one. However I will make this point.

There were two other instances where we could have done something to protect conservation areas. We have not, even though we heard questions earlier about the ones off the east coast and the ones that are being worked on. There is little protection. The two departments have not done anything to protect conservation areas up to this point.

We need legislation. This bill unfortunately is not it. It would not provide the protection these reserves, if we could get them, would absolutely need. The bill would not provide it.

Canada National Marine Conservation Areas ActGovernment Orders

6:25 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today on the issue of Bill C-10, an act respecting the national marine conservation areas of Canada.

Before I begin, I wish to congratulate my colleague, the member for Québec, who has spent a lot of energy trying to make the government understand the importance of consultation about this bill. I congratulate her and I say “Well done and continue your efforts. Sooner or later, our position may prevail.” I believe that is a positive way to work and improve bills.

Again, it is unfortunate. Members will recall that I was, for three years, the Bloc Quebecois' environment critic. A similar bill had been introduced during a previous parliament, but it died on the order paper.

During all that time, I thought that the government would have the decency to take into consideration the work done by the committee, in order to see what suggestions we might make regarding a new bill, and thus ensure progress across Canada.

We must admit, however, that this government has not listened to members of parliament, not even its own members. We had very good discussions at the time. We truly were, as is usually said, for the environment, and I believe it is important to be. We were all acting in good faith.

Yet, when I saw the new bill, I said to myself “They have changed nothing. They have changed absolutely nothing from the previous two bills, either Bill C-8 or Bill C-44”. In other words, they have learned nothing.

Consequently, I wish to say to Quebecers and Canadians that this bill, introduced by this government, does not contribute, as my colleague from the New Democratic Party said, to creating harmony favourable to the environmental agenda, namely marine conservation areas. The Liberals are not acting at all, but they are trying, through fine words, to interfere in jurisdictions that do not belong to them.

We must remember that, under the Constitutional Act of 1867, the seabed comes under provincial jurisdiction. That cannot be denied, it is in the Canadian Constitution. With this bill, however, the government wants to take over areas where it should act in harmony with the provinces and talk with them as it did in the case of the agreement it signed with the Quebec government concerning the Saguenay—Saint-Lawrence Marine Park. That was a model to follow.

It is too bad. I was rereading this agreement the other day and I wished the Liberal member had it in his hands. This agreement was made years ago. It has evolved and has now reached phase three. Each government put money in a concerted fashion to advance an issue.

Madam Speaker, I do not know if you have been to my neck of the woods to visit this marine park. I invite you to do so because it is an example to follow. I have always cheered at the fact that we had finally an example of co-operation, of mutual respect, in order to promote very important issues for present and future generations. Instead of taking this agreement as a model, the government is now trying to reinvent the wheel.

This semblance of willingness to do things for the advancement of a society saddens me. As my colleague was saying, I think they are deceiving the population and are deceiving each other. With this bill, not only are they invading areas that are not under their jurisdiction, they are not agreeing with each other.

All the departments concerned with this bill, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, Environment Canada, Parks Canada, have specific jurisdiction and their areas of responsibility clash.

I do not know whether members have read the Auditor General of Canada's report. I read it with interest myself. Nothing has changed, so the 1996 report still applies. The Auditor General of Canada published chapter 31 on the management of national parks by Parks Canada. I would like to highlight what he said in this chapter. It is very important, because Canadian Heritage is the department introducing this bill.

He said:

—in the six national parks we reviewed, Parks Canada's biophysical information was out-of-date or incomplete except for La Mauricie.

This is the auditor general. He also said:

—that, on average, the management plans for the 18 national parks were 12 years old, when they should have been reviewed every five years.

He added that:

The park management plans provide the strategic direction chosen for the protection of park ecosystems.

The auditor general also added:

Delays in preparing management plans and ecosystem conservation plans reduce Parks Canada's ability to preserve the ecological integrity of national parks.

I could go on reading quotes by the Auditor General of Canada about Parks Canada all night. I will quote another passage from his report:

We are concerned that Parks Canada's ability to preserve ecological integrity in national parks and ensure sustainable park use will be seriously challenged.

This was the auditor general's conclusion.

There is another reason, which Quebecers and Canadians should know about, with regard to why we in the opposition are opposed to this bill, and that is that there was no consultation. The minister said they sent 3,000 consultation documents to groups in Canada. That is quite something. I was really happy when I heard that.

Sixty-two people replied. Most of them did not comment on the bill; they gave their address so that they could be reached in future. That being the case, on what grounds can the Canadian government say that there was consultation? They will have to try again. Is this consultation?

Nowadays, there is great interest in the environment and ecology. I think that, right now, there are several groups in society interested in really being consulted on issues that will affect future generations. But if this is the kind of consultation they do, I can only say that it falls far short.

When young children fail in school, what do they do? They open up their notebooks again, they open up their textbooks and they start studying again. The Government of Canada should have said, "You are right, we failed. We are going to do our homework over again. We are going to look into why our consultations did not provide us with the results we were looking for. The answer we put down was incomplete for such an important question". But the government did not do this. They continued. They moved forward and said that they consulted.

What is important to say about this bill is that it has nothing to do with partnerships, nothing at all; it does not involve governments; it does not consult with the population as a whole.

Back home, people use the Saguenay—St. Lawrence Marine Park. People go to see it. This opportunity to create a park came from the grassroots.

I would like everyone to come and see it. We are talking about extraordinary spaces. It is a wondrous area. It is like being in another world. There are valleys and mountains that connect with the St. Lawrence; it is incredibly beautiful. We have no reason to envy other countries given what we have.

This came from the needs of the grassroots. People got together and called on governments and the governments sat down with them, which led to a phenomenal success.

Why not do the same thing with this bill? If the government wanted to draft another bill, why did it not use this model? This was a success. I am sure that for the 28 marine conservation areas that the government wants to create, there would surely be 28 local groups that would have sat down with them to keep their identity. That is important. We managed to maintain the identity of our beautiful little piece of country in Quebec. That is what we managed to do. But this bill works against any real consultation.

Today, November 19, is my colleague's birthday, the member for Châteauguay I wanted to take this opportunity to wish him happy birthday.

Today, we realize that what this government is doing is inappropriate. Sometimes, I ask myself if it is there to fulfill its election promises, to bring about progress in society or simply to reintroduce old bills and to ease its conscience.

It is not true that we should ease our conscience on environmental issues, particularly it they concern marine conservation areas. I do not go into the forest, I am not a fanatic, but I have an only daughter, and it is important to her. Madam Speaker, I am sure it is important for your children to preserve our natural sites, to develop them in their natural environment that evolved during many generations.

That is not what this bill is doing. I have seen and heard so many things. My colleague, the member for Québec, told me what happened in committee. What did the people who appeared before the committee say? That it is impossible that three departments can say that they have the same job to do.

Heritage Canada wants to look after marine areas. Environment Canada is also in charge of ecosystems, and DFO is involved in this as well. The fishing industry is now in a state of great turmoil in Canada. DFO and HRDC have a project that creates an uproar over the nationalization issue, a project that is ill adapted to the real needs of the industry.

With all this going on in the fishing industry, they would like to do the same for conservation areas. The government will have to do its homework, as the Canadian Alliance member is asking in his amendment, which provides that the government should withdraw this bill, and send it to committee so that it can do its homework. I do not agree with this amendment because I support their position, but because the government should do its homework.

Ministers keep talking about September 11. Every time they are asked a question in the House, they talk about September 11 and say that everything has changed since then. It is true everything has changed. So maybe this bill should be approached differently, in a different light.

Let us have discussions to come to an agreement so that all members end up saying more or less the same thing. The Canadian Alliance is defending a certain position. The Bloc Quebecois cares about the environment and wants to protect the exclusive provincial jurisdiction over submerged lands. The New Democratic Party agrees with our views to a large extent. That is our position.

So, how is it that all of a sudden the truth is in the hands of the Liberal members? I do not think anyone knows the truth after what we experienced on September 11. No one knows the truth anymore. I think we have work to do in the communal sense, for the people and we must make it known to this government, not because we do not want marine areas.

It is not that I do not agree, because we succeeded in Quebec, in partnership with the federal government. The agreement is there. I will get you a copy, Madam Speaker, because it is important. You are a member of the Liberal government. I am sure you wonder about this bill. I think many of your colleagues do so as well. I think we should base ourselves on texts people spent years drafting to ensure we reach a positive conclusion.

I never dismiss out of hand an initiative from the community. That community had an idea and, over the years, was able to get the attention of both levels of government. The governments said “Your idea makes sense. We must sit down together to put that plan into action”. That is what they did, and I congratulate them for having succeeded in doing that.

But why then is the government doing the opposite with this bill? I think we have not seen the last of this government's tricks. One day it says yes, the next day it says no. It is too important. There is a lot of money involved in environmental issues.

That is why the Bloc Quebecois is totally against this bill and is asking the government to go back to square one. It has plenty of time to do so; this is not an urgent matter. It will have to resume consultations. It will have to speak to stakeholders and to come to an agreement with the provinces. It has a lot of work to do.

At this time, it is impossible to make any progress. There is simply too much division. I think we should be able to talk and to agree. If the government does what it can to achieve that, I will be the first one to congratulate it.

But congratulations are certainly not in order today. On the contrary, I am accusing the government of being a source of confrontation, of interfering and of not doing what should be done to protect our environment.

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6:40 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Madam Speaker, first I would like to salute and congratulate my colleague from Jonquière for her excellent speech which was right on the mark and probably very convincing for those who are listening to us.

I would like to ask her what, in her opinion, is behind the federal government's action, something which is not new as we know. This is the second or third time, I believe, that Bloc Quebecois members have to speak up on this matter, quite efficiently I might add. This is the second or third time we are preventing the government from going ahead, and rightly so.

This is part of the federal government strategy—let us not be afraid to call it that—to be firmly entrenched in Canada. We are aware of its recent intervention on young offenders, and prior to that its intervention in the area of privacy, its intervention through the millennium scholarships, in fact in every area where the Quebec government in its wisdom and efficiency happened to have programs which were and are working well.

They might not be working as well today because the federal government imposes its own vision, even if it's not an area under its jurisdiction, with money if it takes money or through its legislative power if it's what it takes.

I would like to know if my colleague from Jonquière sees things the same way I do. What is to happen to us as a people knowing that the social union, probably the cornerstone of the federal strategy, does not recognize in any way the special status of the Quebec people and where Quebec is recognized as a province just like any other?

I invite my colleague to comment on the direction this process is taking us and if the Quebec people really does exist and if it has a say in those different areas?

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6:45 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Speaker, I wish to thank my colleague from Trois-Rivières. His question and his answer covered the matter well.

By not consulting those who have a true interest in these issues, this government can only antagonize them by saying: “You do not wish to work with me, too bad, I will act unilaterally”.

For the time being, the government is simply telling Quebecers and Canadians from other provinces: “No, we decide. You obey”. I think Quebecers can see that tonight. I do not need to say so since it is obvious the government is opposed to dialogue, no matter with whom.

I urge Quebecers to take this bill as an example. They will see for themselves that the government does not want to co-operate. All it wants is to interfere and meddle in other people's affairs.

The only solution left is to finally make Quebec a sovereign nation.

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6:45 p.m.

Liberal

Clifford Lincoln Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Madam Speaker, while waiting for this sovereign country, I was listening very intently to my colleague, for whom I have great respect.

I would like to ask her where in the bill it says that the situation will be different from the establishment of the Saguenay—St. Lawrence marine park. From what I read very clearly in this bill, if a province has jurisdiction on the seabed, for example, which is the case that she referred to, no marine area may be established without a formal agreement between the federal government and the provincial government. This is the first point.

Second, the member said that several departments are involved, as if this was a great deficiency in this bill. When I was in the environment department, in Quebec, we used to establish coastal policies. We had to get the approval of the municipal affairs department. We had to get the approval of the agriculture department. There were always other departments involved. This is not new. Departments have sometimes conflicting activities. They must always come to an agreement, and some agreements must involve some departments.

Third, is the member aware of the case of Lake Superior? Does she know about the case of Bonavista? The consultations were so extensive in the case of Lake Superior—this is coming from the grassroots—that there might be a conservation area. As for Bonavista, there was no consensus, so there was no marine area.

Why would this be different in the future? How would this be different from the situation for Lake Superior, the Saguenay or Bonavista?

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6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

Madam Speaker, I have a great deal of respect for the hon. member for Lac-Saint-Louis, who is a former Quebec environment minister. I have recognized many times when we both sat on the environment standing committee that he did work hard for Quebec. I congratulated him many times. He can attest to that.

Unfortunately, this time—

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6:50 p.m.

An hon. member

He has changed.

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6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Jocelyne Girard-Bujold Bloc Jonquière, QC

I am not sure about that, but what our colleague who chairs the Canadian heritage committee is saying is true. In Quebec, municipalities have always been consulted. We also have MRCs, a comprehensive network of MRCs. Each region has its own environmental group. Where I come from, we have a very active environmental committee. It often questions the Quebec government and takes it to task. I agree with this, because I think the environment is the top priority.

In the past, everybody could do just about anything to the environment. We should now make an about-face to better manage the environment. We can and we should do it. That is the position we are in now, and we would not take the means to do what needs to be done? We would be sidetracked again and just oppose instead of coming to an agreement together?

Personally, I do not want to yield on the seabed issue. It is out of the question. Under the Canadian constitution, this is a provincial jurisdiction. Why does the government refuse to take that as a basic fact? I think that the important thing now is the division of powers, joint action, the environment, and the respect of jurisdictions. Since this discussion should take a few weeks, it would be normal that the bill be sent back to the Canadian heritage standing committee so that this discussion can take place.

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6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Lanctôt Bloc Châteauguay, QC

Madam Speaker, I would like to add something to the question asked. It seems that the member has to leave the House. I find that unfortunate.

In establishing a marine conservation area, one of the basic conditions is that the federal government should own the land—

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6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Jordan Liberal Leeds—Grenville, ON

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. That member knows it is unparliamentary to refer to the presence or absence of a member in the House.

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6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

That is true, but I do believe the hon. member said that he was on his way out. He did not actually name the member, but we will not debate the issue. The hon. member for Châteauguay.

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6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Lanctôt Bloc Châteauguay, QC

Madam Speaker, this had nothing to do with the fact that he had left the House. I wanted him to hear what I had to say.

So, in response, in establishing a marine conservation area—

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6:50 p.m.

Liberal

Joe Jordan Liberal Leeds—Grenville, ON

Madam Speaker, on a point of order, stop handing the floor to him.

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6:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

We have a minute and a few seconds left on the question.

Would the member please refrain from referring to the presence or absence of members. It is the rule. We will go on with the question.