House of Commons Hansard #111 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was housing.

Topics

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Grant McNally Canadian Alliance Dewdney—Alouette, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to follow up on my previous question.

I agree that tax cuts can lead to stimulating the economy but I would also indicate that free trade can provide a vast number of jobs. It has been a good program, although the Liberals originally were against free trade. It was brought forward by a previous Conservative government.

I want to ask the member again about the comment she made last night. She said it was a voice being added to the debate. Does the member agree with the comment she made last night, that the price of free trade has been a loss of Canadian sovereignty? Yes or no.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Cheryl Gallant Canadian Alliance Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON

Mr. Speaker, I was quoting somebody. To answer the question, I personally do not believe that free trade threatens sovereignty.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join in the prebudget debate. I want to talk not so much on how much money we should spend on science and research but on how we should spend some of the money in the budget on science and research.

I will be splitting my time with the member for Stoney Creek.

I want to talk about the initiative of the hon. member for Bellechasse--Etchemins--Montmagny--L'Islet for the creation of a national science organization known as the Canadian academies of science.

I want to share with the House an overview of that proposal, its potential roles, operations, members and the assessment panel process which it would include.

As the sciences move to the centre of decision making in all walks of life, consideration must be given as to how Canada as a society keeps abreast of the impacts and implications of advances in those sciences.

In many countries, national academies play a key role in fulfilling this function. For some time there have been calls for the creation of a national science organization in Canada mandated to conduct independent assessments of the science underlying pressing issues and to provide a strong Canadian voice for the sciences, both nationally and internationally.

As it stands, Canada is one of only two G-7 countries without a recognized national science organization that fulfills these functions. The Royal Society of Canada has conducted assessments of science issues of public concern on an ad hoc basis but it has found that it is very difficult to conduct such assessments on a contract basis.

Without a standing capacity to deal with complex issues, Canada lacks the ability to keep pace with the impacts and implications of advances in the sciences. Furthermore, without an internationally recognized national science organization, it is very difficult for Canada to benefit from the excellent work carried out by foreign academies.

In October 2000, representatives of Canadian science and science related organizations participated in a national round table to consider the creation of a national science organization here. I was pleased to be part of that event. It was a fascinating discussion and in the end we arrived at a consensus in principle on the need for an independent, multidisciplinary, national academy for the sciences and humanities to conduct assessments of the science underlying pressing issues.

In February of this year the hon. member for Bellechasse--Etchemins--Montmagny--L'Islet, in his capacity as Secretary of State for Science, Research and Development, established a working group from a cross section of the round table participants. The goal was to develop a proposal that would address the role, scope and funding of such an organization, and to seek a broad and diverse base of support for the Canadian academies of science within the Canadian stakeholder community.

The working group carried out extensive consultation with academe, science organizations, learned societies, non-governmental organizations, federal government external advisory committees and individuals. The proposal was posted on public websites and distributed to participants of the October round table.

Targeted consultations were also conducted. The proposal was presented during the Standing Committee on Finance's prebudget consultations. Overall the consultations were positive and identified a broad base of support for the establishment of a national science organization.

The academies of science, through its mission, mandate, structure and operating processes, would be an independent, inclusive, impartial and objective organization that would operate in an open and transparent manner.

The Canadian academies of science would provide Canada with a voice on behalf of the full spectrum of the sciences defined to include natural science, engineering, health sciences, social sciences and the humanities.

Its mission would be twofold: to deliver credible, independent, expert assessments of the sciences underlying pressing issues; and to provide a Canadian voice on behalf of the sciences, both nationally and internationally.

Informed decisions in a knowledge based society rest on a foundation of independent, multidisciplinary assessments of the sciences.

At a minimum, assessment establishes an extensive picture of complex issues and clarifies the lines of debate. At its best, the assessment process builds a common base of understanding and establishes a consensus on the questions that remain to be answered.

The Canadian academies of science would provide a critical public service by ensuring independent, unbiased expert assessments of the science underlying pressing issues. These will be used to support informed decision making by the public, the government and other stakeholders, and to consider the impact of expanding knowledge on society.

It is important to distinguish between advice and assessment. Advice makes recommendations concerning a course of action, whereas assessment is the step prior to advice that identifies the scientifically sound evidence with the objective of informing the deliberative process. In a knowledge based economy, informed decisions rest on a foundation of independent, multi-disciplinary assessments of the sciences.

National academies around the world have a long tradition of providing high quality, independent assessments. An excellent example is the recent U.S. national academies’ assessment report on stem cells. This report did not try to set policy but rather strives to inform congress and the executive branch. The assessment panel has one goal: to establish the facts about stem cell research based on documented evidence.

The challenges and opportunities that arise from advances in science are increasingly international in scope. Effective responses will increasingly require a collaborative approach that draws on the scientific and technological expertise in a number of countries.

Together with its member organizations, the Canadian academies of science will participate in joint activities with national academies around the world.

Our model uses an umbrella structure as called for during the October round table. The umbrella structure ensures the Canadian academies of science works with its member organizations to fulfill its mission and mandate. It will synergize and complement the important contributions of its member organizations and other Canadian science organizations. In essence, it parallels the U.S. national research council structure and is similar to the governing structure now employed by Genome Canada. At the same time, it is uniquely Canadian, as reflected in the inclusive nature of the board of governors.

Member organizations are, in effect, the shareholders of the Canadian academies of science. Close collaboration, including the ability to call upon the diverse membership and networks of the member organizations, is critical to the delivery of the academies' mandate.

The Canadian academies of science would be governed by an inclusive, diversified and balanced board of governors of 12 to 20 members. Member organizations will appoint one half of the board members or two per organization. The balance of the board will be drawn from the general public. Scientific credentials will not be a prerequisite for these members. General public board members will be selected on the basis of their leadership within their communities and a demonstrated commitment to Canada.

The board of governors will approve and direct the Canadian academies of science programs and administrative operations. It will also actively develop and maintain linkages with equivalent international bodies in partnership with member organizations and other Canadian science organizations.

With respect to the budget, it is estimated that the Canadian academies of science would require an annual operating budget of $3.5 million. As noted earlier, this is a consultative proposal. To date we have received excellent feedback and I certainly applaud the efforts so far.

The government has invested heavily in science and technology. To gain maximum benefit from those investments, we need to change the way we organize full spectrum science in the country. The Canadian academies of science would do exactly that.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Valeri Liberal Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure to have the opportunity today to speak to the prebudget debate and reflect on what I am hearing in my own constituency with respect to the upcoming budget and what types of things the constituents are looking for in this upcoming budget.

Clearly, constituents are asking the government to take steps to ensure that our economy remains stable as a basic hypothesis. However, along with the funding of a security agenda, which is a priority for Canadians, constituents are also asking the government to maintain a balance both financially and in its approach. This means that along with funding the security agenda, we must also continue to invest some dollars in the areas of skills training and research and development which, going forward, would help to continue to build our economy.

I think Canadians and certainly my constituents are looking to the government to lay out some short term objectives and some medium term objectives, given the type of environment that we are in today. It is very clear that the immediate or short term objective is security, meeting the security challenge and ensuring the security agenda is funded effectively. This means an increased investment in CSIS, in the communications security establishment dealing with our policing, and in the RCMP to ensure we prevent the Canada-U.S. border from being held hostage by terrorists as a result of the September 11 tragedy. We must also work with the international community to bring terrorists to justice. All those things involve money but constituents are calling for some increased investment in those areas.

I think what constituents want is to have their confidence and hope restored as we move through this tragic time. We can restore confidence by restoring the free flow of goods and by pursuing an open and fair free trade with our largest trading partner, the United States of America. We can restore hope by investing in people and by ensuring people have access to education and to enhanced skills training.

We must ensure that stakeholders have an opportunity and a say in what kind of training is required in their particular sector. We must help apprentices who need to continue to improve themselves when they are engaged in training.

Those types of investments would send a signal that the government is investing in Canadians so they can improve their skills and continue to remain competitive, and improve productivity.

We also need to continue to invest in research and development if Canada and its economy is to continue to grow and innovate.

I heard directly from a representative of a university in my riding, McMaster University, who made it very clear that a challenge the universities are facing with respect to research are the indirect costs of research. I know the finance committee, in its travels across the country, heard that message. We need to respond to that type of request.

Health care concerns remain very high for the constituents of Stoney Creek. We are committed as a government to the over $20 billion transfer to the provinces. That type of stimulus is what is required as we move forward.

Security, the concept of security, being able to protect ourselves from the threat of chaos, from the threat of terrorism, is the underpinning of a strong economy. Knowing that we have open access to our largest trading partner is critical and security is the key to ensuring we have that open and free access.

Ultimately, what are constituents saying in this period of prebudget consultation? In my constituency they are saying that the major issue this budget needs to address is the issue of borders. It is border, border, border.

As a country we are dependent on trade: 87% of our trade is with the United States and 25% of that trade comes back. It is a two way flow of trade. It is important that we have access. Not only do we need to do work in terms of the international trade area and trade agreements such as softwood lumber, we have a section 201 action on steel. These are issues that we need to resolve and clearly we have a strong case. As a government we cannot for one second hesitate in putting forward a strong Canadian position. I think we have done that and we will continue to do that.

We also have to make sure that we have access to the North American economy through a free and open border. In fact I am told that Ontario's trade with the United States of America is equal to or greater than United States trade with the European Union, just to give members the sense of the size of the trade between this province and the United States.

Therefore the border is the number one economic issue as we go forward. We need more resources allocated along with a co-ordinated plan to co-operate with our largest trading partner. We need to understand those challenges and respond to them and we need to collectively resolve the issue.

Improved border infrastructure is required. Highway infrastructure improvements are needed as we get access to those borders. I am sure, Mr. Speaker, that you have a number of examples in northern Ontario with respect to highway infrastructure. Let me give the House one example in southwestern Ontario.

I was told today that between Toronto and Miami there are 15 stoplights. Thirteen of those stoplights are in Windsor. As we access the border and emphasize the need to get our products to market in the most efficient way, 13 stoplights is not acceptable. Along with dealing with the border infrastructure required as we respond to the security challenge and fund the security agenda, we must also ensure, in co-operation with the provinces, that we address the highway infrastructure improvements that are required, again focusing on the need to improve that trade flow and ensure open access, ensuring that our companies, those that create jobs for Canadians, can get their products to the United States of America as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

In summary, what are constituents saying? They are saying that the government cannot abandon Canadians' hard won progress. They are saying that the government must balance the budget, as it has, must pay down the debt, as it has, and must reduce federal tax, as it has. We cannot jeopardize the hard won progress Canadians have made in meeting those achievements.

As a government we should not shy away from reallocating, and we should be prepared to reallocate from low priority to higher priority areas where we need to. We should ensure that those high priority areas are clearly financed and properly financed.

Finally, what constituents are saying is this: absolutely no deficit financing.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Gouk Canadian Alliance Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, BC

Mr. Speaker, I listened with great interest to the last member and in particular to his comments about the need for infrastructure. He emphasized Ontario but I have to reflect this in terms of my own province of British Columbia.

Governments in general have an excise tax on gas. The Liberal government right now takes in about $1 billion a year in fuel taxes from my province of British Columbia and yet it spends only about $200 million nationally on this highway infrastructure the hon. member talked about. If he thinks there are problems with highway infrastructure in Ontario, imagine the challenge we have in British Columbia with our highly mountainous terrain. B.C., being forestry dependent and having a lot of mining product that goes south, needs a very good highway infrastructure and it is very expensive to maintain.

Having made a comment about the infrastructure in Ontario, what does he think about his government's policy of spending $200 million a year on the highway system nationally while extracting $1 billion from British Columbia alone? B.C. needs some of its own money back so it can fix its highway infrastructure.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Valeri Liberal Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Speaker, I certainly understand the hon. member's comment about the infrastructure in British Columbia. When I made reference to the challenges in Ontario I did not do so to the exclusion of other parts of Canada. Clearly there are challenges right across the country.

The point I was making is that we need to ensure a free and efficient flow of goods to our largest trading partner, and certainly there are border crossings in British Columbia that require improved infrastructure. I would fully support the point that we need to embark upon a much broader program and approach to a highway system or a national highway system.

On the matter brought up by the member with respect to the dollars spent versus the dollars taken in by the federal government in terms of an excise tax, that really speaks to a formula for a directed tax whereby a certain amount of money is allocated to a particular area of expenditure.

I have a problem with directed taxes. While I support the need for improvement in infrastructure, the problem with directed taxes is that if we adopt a position of directing tax dollars a number of envelopes are set up right across the bureaucracy and when there is no longer a flow of money we must stop spending in those areas. If we were to find ourselves with a clear need for infrastructure and excise tax dollars that need to be directed actually drop for some reason, we would not have the capacity to find other money. I am much more in favour of recognizing that the area is a priority and that collectively with the provinces we work to resolve it, ensuring that there is federal participation.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Matapédia—Matane, QC

Mr. Speaker, the member for Stoney Creek began his speech by saying that steps must be taken to ensure that our economy remains stable.

Our finance critic, the member for Saint-Hyacinthe--Bagot, asked the Minister of Finance questions for weeks on end, even suggesting a plan of action to him, for the very purpose of ensuring that our economy remains stable, that it can get back on track in the wake of the events of September 11 and the recent crisis.

He also talked about what his constituents wanted, but we learned very little, except perhaps regarding highway infrastructures. He also said that, whatever it takes, we must hang on to a balanced budget, because this has been a hard won battle and an important one.

I would simply remind him that it is the majority of workers who have paid down the deficit, because of EI cuts.

Would his constituents, who are workers, not like to see the EI system reformed and the rules relaxed?

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Tony Valeri Liberal Stoney Creek, ON

Mr. Speaker, certainly I want to respond to the hon. member's comment with respect to the call by the Bloc that the government should now somehow intervene and stimulate the economy in order to get us through this downturn.

It is also fair to say, and the hon. member should recognize this, that the $100 billion in tax cuts that was announced is now in the pipeline. The tax cuts are now hitting the economy as we move forward. The transfer of over $20 billion to provinces is now coming through the pipeline and that will hit the economy.

The drop in interest rates will create an enormous amount of stimulus. A lot of stimulus will hit the economy as we move through this and it will improve the economy. Going forward, what workers in my constituency want is to ensure that they have the opportunity to work and that their employment is secure.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:20 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak in the prebudget debate. My colleague from Regina--Qu'Appelle spoke eloquently a few days ago in debate and laid out the general approach on behalf of the New Democratic Party. However, I too want to add my concerns about the state of the economy and what is facing low income Canadians in particular as we now move into the prebudget and into what will unfold in a budget that will be before us very quickly.

I heard the member across the way talk about the need for security. There is no question that the events of September 11 have heightened everybody's awareness about issues of security. I remember reading the headline in the Globe and Mail , “One billion dollars for security”. I guess that is just the early estimate of what these measures will cost us.

In speaking in this debate today, I also want to put forward, as many people are doing, the idea and the importance that security is more than border crossings, more than police enforcement and more than protection of our borders or airports. They are important security measures about which Canadians are very concerned, however, security can also mean other things, particularly in the lives of Canadians who are at the bottom of the economic system. We can talk about food security, housing security, income security and services or program security.

I feel very saddened when I look at previous budgets in the House and see that there has been very little emphasis and very little debate around that part of security and what it means to Canadians. As we approach the budget and give our responses and concerns to the finance minister and the government, it is very important that there be a full debate, with diversity in the debate, so that it does not just focus on almost a panic that sets in and a mindset that all money has to be funnelled into national security.

I think there is a very great concern out in the public among various organizations, whether it is the Canadian Labour Congress, the Canadian Council on Social Development, the National Anti-Poverty Organization or the National Housing and Homelessness Network, all of which have done an immense amount of work. They are contributing to this debate by pointing out that after four years of massive surpluses, which were actually created in large part by cutting back on our social programs, created on the backs of poor people, we have to be very careful that we do not move now into an era when low income poor people and disadvantaged people will again suffer a disproportionate burden as we move into a budget that will possibly have a huge emphasis on national security.

In my mail yesterday I received a very interesting report, and maybe other members received it too, “The Third Annual Report on the Status of Inequality in Canada”, produced by the CSJ Foundation for Research and Education. The report is titled “When Markets Fail People, Exploring the widening gap between rich and poor in Canada”.

I will begin my remarks today by quoting from this report because to me it really sets out one of the fundamental issues we are facing and yet I believe the government has miserably failed to deal with it. The report states:

This report, When Markets Fail People, asserts that growing inequality is fundamentally tied to our market system and that, both in periods of recession and recovery, inequality between rich and poor has continued to grow. This is why income inequality is at its largest spread than at any point in the last generation...Years of neo-liberal policies have promised that the private market is the best solution to inequality and that (somehow) we can simply grow our way out of poverty.

The report continues:

The study reveals that market income improvements during economic booms are very sticky. They accumulate at the top, flow somewhat to the top half of income earners, dribble down to the poorer half of the population and completely dry up before they reach the poorest 10% among us.

This is a stark conclusion and a sharp judgment on the economic policies of the Liberal government for the last decade. We have seen the Liberal government pushed from the right by the Reform Party, then the Alliance, to deal with the deficit and sink money into tax cuts that have not benefited the people in society who are most at risk.

Those tax cuts lined the pockets of people who were already affluent and wealthy. They meant a few dollars for working people but they were dollars that were sucked out of essential services. They were dollars that were sucked out of programs that could have established, for example, real accessible national child care programs or a national housing program.

We are at a critical juncture in terms of making a decision and correctly analyzing what the impact has been of the market ideology as it is played out in the federal budget on all Canadians, but particularly Canadians who have suffered in the last decade.

I quote further from the report because it is such an excellent one. An analysis was done by looking at other countries where different choices were made in terms of budgetary priorities and government spending. It points out:

Societies with a narrow gap between rich and poor are characterized by increased quality of life, improved health and higher education levels. We must eliminate the undue bias that all our systems afford the wealthy--education, health, criminal and civil justice, immigration and politics.

I respect the work that is embodied in the report because it gives us a message about what have been the failures in the last decade.

A few days ago there was an open letter addressed to the Prime Minister, the Minister of Finance and the Governor of the Bank of Canada. It was signed by about 100 prominent and progressive economists in the country. I will not read the list of people who signed the letter, but it was co-ordinated by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, an organization involved annually in developing the alternative federal budget. They applaud the Bank of Canada's recent interest rate cuts, but they also point out:

We also strongly believe that these cuts are not, by themselves, sufficient. We therefore call on the government to enact a mix of appropriate spending and tax measures, with the emphasis on spending, that will produce the greatest fiscal stimulus to employment creation.

The whole idea of job creation and stimulating the economy is something that is critically important because the number of people who have been unemployed has actually risen by about 60,000. There is no question that more people will be facing economic insecurity in the coming months and years.

There is no question that one possible policy instrument that people see emerging, if the federal government chooses to make a progressive decision, is public investment in a national housing program.

There was an op-ed piece in the November 2 Toronto Star by Marcel Lauzière and Andrew Jackson who are with the Canadian Council on Social Development. They highlight and zero in on the incredible inequalities in society in terms of the growing gap between wealthy and poor. They state:

What we need in December is a budget that does something to maintain and create jobs, and improve the lives of the marginalized. How do we achieve this? There is no better candidate than investment in affordable housing.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I spent a few weeks travelling across the country before and during the resumption of parliament. I visited various urban centres: Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver. I will be in Montreal tomorrow. I even went as far as Iqaluit and Nunavut. I spoke with people who were experiencing housing affordability problems.

The number one priority of every place I went to and every group I met with was that we should try to convince the provincial or territorial government, but most important the federal government, to make an investment in social housing.

There is an urgent plea from both the labour movement and the Canadian Council on Social Development that a significant federal investment in a national housing strategy would not only produce economic security and create tens of thousands of jobs but would deal with what is now characterized as a housing crisis. We are looking at more than two million Canadians who are facing severe housing problems. This flows from either absolute homelessness and lack of shelter on the street, in effect destitution, or people who are literally one paycheque away from being homeless, whose rents are so high that they do not have enough money to pay for food.

I urge the government not turn a blind eye to the idea that a major investment in social housing is something that would be good for our economy. It would create jobs and meet a real social need. Research that we have done shows that if there were a one time $2 billion investment in social housing we would be able to produce 46,000 new jobs next year. That would increase to 94,000 jobs in five years. The National Housing and Homelessness Network stated that $2 billion could build between 30,000 and 40,000 social housing units.

The government's own agency, CMHC, said that in terms of the demand and the needs that exist we need to produce about 30,000 to 40,000 units of affordable housing every year just to keep pace with demand. That kind of investment would create good union jobs.

Yesterday we were debating softwood lumber crisis. I am from British Columbia. I know full well the impact on small communities and even on urban centres has been devastating as a result of the outrageous duties placed on softwood lumber. If the Government of Canada made a decision to invest in housing, we could use our own resource to build affordable housing for Canadians. There is yet another benefit in terms of the softwood lumber crisis.

According to CMHC each new housing unit creates between three and six full time jobs in total over a five year period. The Federation of Canadian Municipalities argued and put forward some excellent documentation that over the next 10 years we need 20,000 new houses to be built yearly and 10,000 units to be rehabilitated annually. A program such as this would have a very positive effect on our economy.

I will be introducing in the House of Commons a housing bill of rights. I believe it is a basic fundamental right that people have security of shelter.

The government's performance to date in this area has been very disappointing. In the last Liberal red book a promise was made for about $680 million over four years. There is concern that even that commitment will now drop off the table.

Provincial and territorial housing ministers will be meeting at the end of November. There will be a lot of interest and examination of whether or not the federal government will at minimum be committed to that program, or whether it will heed the advice of organizations like the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and the National Housing and Homelessness Network and look at the provision of an affordable housing strategy as something that can help people and stimulate our economy.

I endorse that idea 100% and urge all Liberal members to look at that kind of plan, which would have a very positive effect both provincially and municipally.

I will also talk about other aspects of the budget the NDP view as very critical. One of those areas is infrastructure. We have a Liberal task force currently working its way across the country and looking at the need for urban infrastructure.

I am from the city of Vancouver where infrastructure is at risk from years of lack of funding. It is critical to have a program of sound public investment in infrastructure, whether it be water filtration upgrading or public transit. There is strong support from Canadians for these critical things.

Canadians have been asked repeatedly in many polls whether they would prefer to have tax cuts or an investment in basic social infrastructure. Time and again they choose social investment because they understand that the quality of local communities and the quality of life actually improve for all people.

It is another significant area which should be a key priority for the government, not just in terms of dealing with major problems in our urban environment but also as a way of meeting our international commitments at Kyoto by financing and supporting public transit.

We do not even think about the subsidization of private vehicle use and highways. It is not part of the balancing of or equating how we direct public funds. There is massive subsidization of our highway system and private automobile. When it comes to public transit, though, we do not see it on the same footing. Yet the benefit of financing and supporting public transit is something that is far greater.

I represent a riding that is made up of a very diverse population. It is a working class riding. People put in a lot of time working at part time jobs. There is a great fear that with the new government in British Columbia there will be a program of attacks on poor and working people and an assault on various social programs. People will be looking to the federal government for leadership, relief and support.

One thing on the agenda in British Columbia is a two tier minimum wage system, something that is completely outrageous. It is a program which would take money away from people working in minimum wage jobs. It would make their lives more difficult and make it difficult for them to make ends meet every month. Gordon Campbell, the new premier, is considering a two tier minimum wage whereby some people would be making $6 an hour and some would get $8 an hour. I find this incredibly offensive.

I bring that to the attention of the House because it is an example of where leadership is required by the federal government for strong investment in a program that would narrow the inequality gap in Canada. If we focus our sights on that and say that it is the true measure of security in our country, we will produce a society that is healthier and more productive. I urge the government to consider the words of these organizations and look at the priorities they have put forward.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Edmonton Southeast Alberta

Liberal

David Kilgour LiberalSecretary of State (Latin America and Africa)

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague most sincerely for her suggestions about the budget in areas like housing.

Would the member be kind enough to tell the House what she would like to see the government do with respect to overseas development assistance, for example, in countries in Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean? How would she like to see the government spend money on people with real problems in those parts of the world?

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question because I actually did not get a chance to go into other areas. I am glad he raised this aspect of the federal budget.

I think he will know that the New Democratic Party has been a political party that has always stood strong and firm on being part of the international community that meets its obligations in the international community. While I do not have the figures in front of me, it is very disappointing that over a number of years Canada has slipped in its commitment to overseas development aid.

Look at the global situation now with the bombing in Afghanistan. Clearly our party has unequivocally been opposed to that war. We have said that it is critical that aid be increased for Afghanistan, but also for other countries.

This again really gets to the issue of security. Security is not just about military forces and people dealing with conflict. Security is dealing with the conditions that create hopelessness, despair and poverty. Canada has had a good track record but that track record is now being tarnished.

In reply to the hon. member, I believe there are members on the other side of the House who have strong support for international development and overseas development aid. We in the New Democratic Party feel strongly about that too and believe that it should be an area that Canada strengthens as part of a progressive commitment to the international community.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:40 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, before putting a question to the member for Vancouver East, I wish to offer my sincerest congratulations to the new mayor of the new city of Trois-Rivières, which will now have some 130,000 inhabitants.

I had the pleasure of getting to know Yves Lévesque better in recent months. I can say that he is a very dynamic individual who will undoubtedly be up to—

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I would suggest that he put his question or make his comment.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I was leading up to the problems being experienced by our city with the closing of the Fruit of the Loom plant. This has meant lost jobs for 650 women, on top of the hundreds of workers who lost theirs with the closing of Tripap a few years ago.

Today, these workers are suffering because a decision by Human Resources Development Canada, through its minister, was upheld, which is contrary to a unanimous recommendation by the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development relating to older workers and the return of POWA.

I would ask my hon. colleague from Vancouver East what she thinks of the minister's attitude and the potential power of the Minister of Finance to remedy the situation by ensuring that his coming budget contains special allocations for dealing with this dramatic situation.

It is all very well to be concerned about security at our borders, but people are experiencing systematic insecurity. There is no longer any bridge between employment insurance and social assistance. There is a very noticeable gap, and workers aged 55 and over are totally overwhelmed and forced to dig into their own financial resources.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I would certainly concur with the member. New immigrants are particularly vulnerable in a marketplace where job loss can be very vague in terms of corporations that pull out of a community.

I have a fairly sizeable garment industry in my riding of Vancouver East. It is a very competitive business. I know there are new immigrants who work very hard in these industries, yet they can be thrown out of work in an instant.

I agree with the hon. member that the study done by the committee highlighted the issues facing older workers. There has been no response from the federal government in terms of an infrastructure or support for older workers to make sure they are not the first to be laid off when they still have family responsibilities or mortgage responsibilities.

As has been noted, the employment insurance system is a joke. We are talking about older workers who may have paid into that system and have paid their insurance for decades. Yet when they become unemployed they may not be able to take advantage of it because the criteria have become so strict. I find that a real tragedy.

Bringing in a budget is an opportunity to use public policy and use a budget to deal with these inequities within our society. We have to make sure that older workers, new immigrant workers or people who are trying to get into the workforce have a fair opportunity. They have to have the proper kinds of support and programs for their families so that all people can prosper and benefit.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON

Mr. Speaker, I know of the member's great interest in affordable housing. I know she represents an inner city riding and she knows that I represent an urban rural riding. We both have problems, often different problems, but real problems with affordable housing.

At this moment in parts of Canada there is already 24 hours of darkness, extreme cold and the people living there do not have affordable housing. The people simply lack housing. I speak of Nunavut.

These debates are an opportunity for us to think aloud. Would the member think aloud for us with her thoughts about what we should do for Nunavut, where they simply lack houses but live in an incredibly severe environment?

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I wish we had more time to speak about this. I recently had the opportunity to go to Nunavut and visit Iqaluit. I met with housing activists, as well as one of the government ministers.

The member is quite correct. The situation there is quite appalling. I visited an emergency shelter and a number of public housing units. Every single person I met told me that they wanted to see a commitment from the federal government to a national housing strategy that would enable them to make housing a priority.

They are willing to put money into it, but they need the support of the federal government. I would say clearly to the member that he and I, along with other members of the House, should do all we can to see that the next federal budget makes housing a priority, so that the people of Nunavut are not out in the cold this winter. This is something that obviously in that climate they cannot afford to do.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Louis Plamondon Bloc Bas-Richelieu—Nicolet—Bécancour, QC

Mr. Speaker, I will make one brief comment, since I know I have only one minute left.

I fully share the hon. member's concerns about affordable housing, and I agree with her suggestions on infrastructure and public transit in particular.

Social housing is, moreover, one of the primary concerns of the government of Quebec, which has just brought down a budget earmarking over $400 million for it. This was a decision to which there was absolutely no opposition, and the people of Quebec are unanimously in favour. It seems to me that this example could be followed by all of Canada. The minister ought to be receptive to such suggestions.

The hon. member also referred to international aid. The motion the Bloc Quebecois managed to get passed last week addresses increasing the level of international assistance to a slighter higher percentage of GDP. When one realizes that close to $12 billion is being spent on the Canadian forces, and not even $1 billion on international aid, there is something wrong there.

It seems to me, as the hon. member said, that we would be better off intervening on the international level, helping populations out of poverty, than supporting military regimes with bombing attacks that are very much debatable.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Libby Davies NDP Vancouver East, BC

Mr. Speaker, I am very happy to see that the government of Quebec has made a decision to reinvest in social housing. When I travelled across the country I used to say that I was proud to be from British Columbia because, along with Quebec, those were the only two provinces investing in social housing. Regrettably now I have to say it is only Quebec because in B.C. provincial funds for social housing have been frozen. I applaud the fact that in Quebec there is still a commitment.

I hope the member would agree with me that, if we had a federal commitment as well, we would then have a program, not just in Quebec but in all provinces and in all urban centres in smaller communities. This would be a significant, positive stimulus to our economy and result in the creation of good jobs, in many cases well paying union jobs.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this prebudget debate today. It is earlier than most of us expected. We still want to make a point of trying to get some of the issues that matter, certainly to my riding of York West, on the record.

The residents of York West, which is the riding I am proud to represent, clearly have stressed the importance of living in a safe community. They understand the pressures on our budget and on the finance minister to put the investment into security, as all Canadians want, to ensure we have a safe and secure environment.

Another issue in my riding clearly is housing. There is an enormous need for that in part of my community. Other issues include jobs, good hospitals and efficient transportation. Seniors need more support such as home care programs and the like.

What I want to spend the rest of my time talking about are some of the things I have learned as chair of the Prime Minister's task force on urban issues.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I apologize to the hon. member, but pursuant to Standing Order 38, it is my duty to inform the House that the question to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment is as follows: the hon. member for Lévis-et-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière, Shipbuilding.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I forgot to mention that I will be splitting my time with the member for Mississauga West.

I have gone with the task force across the country to some of our large urban regions. The issues that have come forward from all of them are that the communities are feeling under siege. Our large urban regions have limited tax ability to continue to raise taxes. People on the other end just cannot afford immense tax increases on their properties. They are feeling under siege. We look at them as being the jewels of our country; the large urban regions house about 80% of the population. It is important that they stay competitive and that they do well. They are very much looking to the federal government for help.

It is interesting that when things get rough, everybody seems to look to the father figure, the federal government, which is how they described it to me. They are in enormous difficulties. They are looking to us to show some leadership and to help them.

The competitiveness of these large urban regions is critical to their growth and development. It is not only locally; they need to be doing well internationally. We must stay focused on those issues. We must look at what the role is for the federal government, how we can best assist them and be a better partner in government. They feel their quality of life is very much threatened.

Cities which were once spotlessly clean and very efficient with great transportation and transit systems are now embroiled in gridlock. There are enormous problems. There is the frustration of being stuck on the road and not being able to get home at night, taking an hour to get home, and the air quality which all of us are having to experience.

From what I am hearing from our regions, what is needed is an integrated transportation network much like what the Minister of Transport is currently looking at.

Commuter rail is the responsibility of the federal government. An integrated system within our transportation network would be an enormous help to these large urban regions. We must keep in mind that urban transit is a provincial responsibility, not a federal one. The commuter rail is our role. We are looking at working with municipalities on trying to enhance that role, whether it be light rail or subways, enhanced VIA Rail or Go system, whatever happens to be out there that is of assistance to our municipalities to move on the gridlock issue.

Another issue that has been raised by one of our colleagues in our round table discussions is the need for more affordable housing, both rental and home ownership. There is an enormous need for that.

There is also a need to attract skilled workers. We are an aging society. A lot of the people that worked in construction came from other countries. The need here in Canada is immense with the aging population we have currently.

Another issue was climate change and other related initiatives that need to be happening to deal with the Kyoto targets and how we can improve the air quality. Much of that is tied into transportation and how we might deal with that.

Brownfield sites which in many cases are good sites for redevelopment in a variety of areas will not get redeveloped. They will continue to stagnate in the state they are unless they get serious help by changing the liability issues and allowing deductions for some of the cleanup costs.

I raise some of these issues so that hopefully, if the Minister of Finance cannot get them into this budget, he will give some consideration to getting them into another budget.

The federal government has a lot of brownfield sites and so do the provinces and municipalities. If we could figure out how to deal with some of those liability issues, there would be great opportunities for intensification in some of our neighbourhoods to prevent some of the urban sprawl that is currently happening.

Fiscal tools were mentioned a lot in our round table discussions as a way to stop tying the hands of the municipalities behind their backs. Given the freedom and the responsibility, I am confident they would not use those fiscal tools in any way that would hamper the opportunity to be competitive and continue to grow in the regions.

From my experience as a city councillor, before we are going to add on any more taxes, the first thing we do is look at the economic competitiveness of the region and how it will compare. We look for the alternatives to ensure that our cities stay as competitive as Montreal and Vancouver. Of course now we are dealing with cities on an international level. It is important to make sure that the cities stay very competitive.

Health and education are very important. We need to have a well educated workforce. Our children need full opportunities to go to university and explore the avenues of tomorrow for themselves.

The universities, and York University in my riding in particular, do a fabulous job of opening the doors to a lot of programs for people who maybe would not have had a chance to go to university some years back. That happens as a result of foundations and other programs that offer opportunities to many young people.

Investment in research is also an area, especially after September 11. It shows just how important that is to us, when we deal with the kinds of scares we have had in the last couple of weeks, that we continue to invest in areas of research that hold a cure for many of the problems in society today. A certain amount of investment is needed. I am proud to say that our government has made it another one of its many high end priorities, to ensure that we get research money in there.

We make choices as a government and I think we have made the right choices. The $100 billion tax cut, which is the biggest tax cut in the history of Canada, is now coming into play at a time when we probably will need it more than ever. It is hoped we will be able to keep that money going into the economy. Our infrastructure programs are kicking into gear as well. That will help create the jobs and the opportunities that will certainly be needed in the future.

Those were choices that we made. We could have decided, as some of our colleagues on the other side have asked, to go for massive tax cuts. Then we would have had to make other decisions. I am confident we have made the right decisions.

The Minister of Finance did a fine job of putting those things in place prior to September 11, certainly not knowing what was coming. The layout of those programs and those tax cuts has come at an appropriate time for all of us. We look at those tax cuts and we know that we put the incentives into our programs to continue going.

At the end of the day our seniors want confidence in the economy. They want to know that the health care system will continue to be funded in a fair and equitable way. As an example, approximately $8 billion in additional health funding is going into the province of Ontario. That is over and above what was previously indicated. The health care money is there in order to ensure that seniors and other residents in my riding get the health care they want.

We wish everyone good luck with the budget and ask that the issues of our urban regions stay front and centre as we deal with the pressures on our budget today.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Jim Gouk Canadian Alliance Kootenay—Boundary—Okanagan, BC

Mr. Speaker, leading in to a question for the hon. member, I would like to comment on the previous speech by the member for Vancouver East. I do not know if she was confused and got her facts backward but she said, and I assume she is referring to British Columbia, her province and mine, that there are subsidies for private motor vehicles and subsidies for the highways but unfortunately no subsidies for public transportation.

It is the exact opposite. Public transportation in British Columbia, particularly in the lower mainland in the area she is from in Vancouver, is heavily subsidized. On the price of gas alone that the private vehicles buy, there is an extra two cents a litre to help pay for that, so it is the exact opposite.

This goes to a question I asked a government member earlier and I address it now to the member. We need a good highway infrastructure system in order to get our economy working to travel east and west within Canada and north and south across the border. We have a tremendous amount of cross-border traffic. We need a much better highway system.

The federal government spends about $200 million per year on national highway infrastructure. In British Columbia alone it extracts $1 billion out of the province in fuel tax which was put on ostensibly as a highway tax to build and maintain our highway infrastructure. That is just the federal tax.

I would ask the hon. member what she thinks would be fair. Perhaps we could come up with some kind of system so that her government puts back some of the money so that we can spend it directly on the very sector it was taken from, the public transportation sector. Then we could have better infrastructure in order to move the goods to create the wealth that pays the taxes that keeps the government going.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

5 p.m.

Liberal

Judy Sgro Liberal York West, ON

Mr. Speaker, I can say that millions of dollars are currently being directed into British Columbia as they are to the other provinces. That money is on the table through our infrastructure programs for many issues on transportation, whether we are talking roads or rail transportation issues. It does not have to come specifically from a fuel tax as was indicated before. A dedicated tax ties the hands of what we can do with the money at the end of the day. Probably much more is going back into British Columbia than is being paid in fuel tax.

Prebudget ConsultationsGovernment Orders

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Yves Rocheleau Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. member for York West if she endorses the unanimous recommendation of the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development regarding older workers who cannot benefit from a special program under the employment insurance program.

As we know, the employment insurance fund is getting richer every year. We also know that there is a good reason for this: before the reform, 84% of those who were unemployed could collect EI benefits, compared to only 40% now.

One does not have to be a rocket scientist to realize that surpluses in the EI fund are increasing rapidly every year. Therefore, will the hon. member make representations to the Minister of Finance and ask him to improve the situation?

As we said earlier, it is fine to talk about security, but the government should improve the situation of older workers, including women. As I said before, I have two files relating to this issue. First, there are the 650 women who work for Fruit of the Loom, including 150 who are aged 50 and over and whose situation is dramatic. Then, there is the case of the dozens of men working for the Tripap company.

Will the hon. member make representations to the minister and ask him to improve the situation?