Mr. Speaker, frequently when we rise in debate we begin our speech by saying “I am pleased to be able to stand and speak to this debate”. I have the extraordinary honour today of being the leadoff speaker for the opposition on this government motion. Pursuant to Standing Order 43, I am going to jolly well take my time doing it before the government prevents us from speaking at all on anything at any time.
The House leader seems to pride himself on the fact that we are patterned after the United Kingdom parliament. He gets a little smile on his face when he says “Over there, every bill is time allocated”. He seems so happy about that. I am very concerned about it.
I became a member of parliament in 1993. I have been around here for approximately seven years. In that time I have given some serious thought to what this place is. I have often said that I wish I would have learned French when I was young. I lived far away from French speaking people and I was so interested in science and math that I took those options and did not learn French.
However, one of the words in French that I know is parlez-vous; parle. It has something to do with speaking, does it not? It has something to do with debates. If parliament is not the place of debate then what is it? What then is our purpose for being here if we do not have adequate opportunity to debate issues?
I am quite aware of the fact that the motion today has nothing to do directly with debate. It is dealing with the question of whether or not members of the opposition, or any other members, can propose amendments. Backbenchers really do not have that much freedom to propose amendments, although I suppose legally according to the standing orders they could. What is really being proposed is a limitation on members of parliament, who are not in the front inner core over there, to put forward amendments at report stage.
I want to interrupt the flow of my speech for just a second. I am aware that there are hundreds, probably thousands, of Canadians watching this debate. It is Monday morning. Out west right now it is approximately 10.30 a.m. There are a lot of people who said they were going to leave their jobs for a while, watch CPAC and this important debate. The whole future of our parliamentary system hangs on this debate. I believe they are glued and riveted to their television sets right now.
I want to interrupt the talk about the proposed motion to describe very briefly how things work around here. People out there ought to know that we have three readings of bills. The first reading is usually the introduction of the bill. It seemed strange to me, when I first came here in 1993, that there was no vote on the first reading of the bill.
The Speaker gets up and asks if the minister is present. The minister usually does not even rise. The Speaker will read the motion or the bill then the Clerk will stand and acknowledge it. Then it will be said that bill is deemed to have passed, or words to that effect. I see the House leader is having major problems with what I am saying.
The bill has gone through the first reading stage, which is the stage deemed accepted without a vote. I thought that was strange but I can see why. The introduction of a bill only needs to be deemed to have been accepted by the House. I can see why neither the government nor probably the other members would want to come into the House to simply vote for something that says that the bill will be introduced.
However, the government introduces a bill and it is put on the order paper. The bill comes up for second reading on a subsequent day as given by the government House leader. Second reading of the bill is a discussion on the principles of the bill. It is a relatively short discussion as the normal rules of debate limit that time. Most of us give 10 minute speeches at that level. After second reading there is a vote and the bill is referred to a committee.
I have enjoyed my committee work. I have had some frustrations there but committee work is very enjoyable and useful. Committee work has a lot of potential for being a really important and pivotal part of the democratic process, the process of producing bills and motions.
At committee stage, the committee does a number of things. It usually gives an opportunity for people at large, whether they are a group, members of an association or individuals, to appear before the committee. Depending upon the importance, magnitude or how far reaching the bill is, the number of witnesses may be relatively small or may be quite large.
For example, I was a member of the finance committee in the last parliament when it was considering Bill C-38, a bill which unfortunately died on the order paper. Bill C-38 would have amended the way banking structures would operate. The committee heard information from many interesting and informed guests.
To summarize the stages of a bill, there is first reading and introduction and then second reading. After debate at second reading, the bill is voted on, agreed to and then referred to committee for members to consider at committee stage. Before the bill is returned by the committee to the House, the committee looks at all the suggestions and presentations made by different people. Committee members, utilizing not only their own skills but the skills of other staff and experts, may come up with amendments to the bill or to the motion. There may be an amendment that says that we will change a section, delete a section or add something. Those are amendments that come from committee.
When the committee reports the bill back to the House it simply means that the committee has finished its process. The bill comes back to the House for debate and for a vote on the amendments. It is called the report stage of the bill. At this stage we look at the amendments that the committee brought forward. This is where the system falls down.
I believe the motion before us today is trying to kill a gnat with a sledgehammer. Because the committee stage does not work the Liberals want to bring into the House rules and regulations that would prevent backbench members and opposition members from having an opportunity to adequately put forward their motions or amendments to a bill or a motion.
If this particular motion is passed, and using the clout of the parliamentary majority that the government has I believe it will pass, I predict that the motion will be subject to time allocation. I will talk more about that a little later on.
The motion will prevent members of parliament from getting their issues on to the floor of the House. There is a rule right now, and the government House leader made allusion to the fact that there is a standing order which prevents members in the House from moving amendments that were already dealt with at committee stage.
If a committee brings back a report with proposed amendments that were defeated in committee, they cannot be brought in again in this place. A certain argument can be made for that since they were already presumably dealt with in committee. On the other hand, any amendments approved by the committee will be included in the report of the bill back to the House for the House to deal with them.
It has been my observation in the seven years that I have been here that pretty well every amendment passed in committee is passed there because the parliamentary secretary who sits on the committee brings in the information from the minister and the minions which says that they want the amendment. Very often they are government proposed amendments and of course they pass. However if an opposition member puts in an amendment it is almost certain to fail since the committee has more Liberals on it right now, because the Liberals are in government, than it has other opposition members combined.
As a result the only amendments brought in are those which have the approval of the minister. His tentacles reach into the committee and basically control what happens there. The Liberals present in the House may be howling in protest, but that is my observation. That is what I have seen.
I remember proposing some amendments after my first election in 1993. I do not even remember now what the bill was, but I remember that I proposed some good amendments very early on. They were so good that some government members on that committee told me privately they were good ideas and even went so far as to say that they supported them.
A week or two later, after we heard from some more witnesses in committee, we came to clause by clause consideration. For the benefit of those thousands of people watching CPAC today, clause by clause consideration is when the chairman of the committee simply goes through the bill and asks whether the clauses should pass. Sometimes he speaks much more quickly than I was speaking now, but I am trying to give a little consideration to the interpreters who are working so hard for me this morning.
We go through the clauses very quickly. If we have an amendment for which we have given notice, we must be right on the bit when the chairman asks whether a clause should pass. Right then we must jump up and say that we have an amendment. Even if we have given notice of it, if we do not move it right at that instant it will not be dealt with and the clause will have passed unamended. That is how that works in committee. The last thing is whether the title should pass.
After that has been dealt with, the chairman asks if the bill should be reported to the House. There are also usually enough members in the committee to cause that to pass. Then it is brought back here, and that is what we are dealing with now. The bill or motion is reported back to the House, having gone through introduction, second reading, and study and clause by clause consideration at committee stage. Then the bill is back here for report stage.
As I said earlier, any amendments which have been dealt with in committee, in order to avoid duplication, are not permitted to be brought up here. Any amendments that have not been brought up in committee can be brought up by any member of the opposition or any backbencher on the government side. The government can also introduce amendments at report stage in the House which have not been dealt with in committee. That would deal with last minute technical changes or things of which it becomes aware.
Then we vote on each of the amendments. This is where the problem comes in. This is where the government just has convolutions of hopelessness. If we have a lot of amendments and if we on this side of the House force a standing vote on it, as opposed to just a voice vote which is called on division, then the government members could be literally forced to stand for hours, one at a time, voting against our amendments to prevent any amendments from going through.
Again, if I can give my observation, over all the years that I have been here now, there have been maybe three or four amendments put forward by opposition members that have passed in the House. I remember I had one. It was the first one in the 35th parliament.