Debates of Feb. 8th, 2001

Supply

[Some hon. members]

No.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I can quote the Minister of Justice from just a couple of minutes ago, when she said that our system is one of parliamentary democracy. I believe she also said that public office is a public trust.

What we see today in the debate on the motion and in the response and the defence being put on by the government is that the government really does not believe that we have a working parliamentary democracy. I do not think they appreciate that public office is a public trust.

The reason I say that is that it does come down to the heart of accountability. Human nature being what it is, unless we are accountable to someone else or to some external force, human nature tends to suggest that we cover up for ourselves. We do things that are not totally proper, but then we hope to get away with them.

Here is how I define accountability. I have done a lot of work on the topic. I was chairman of the public accounts committee in the House in the last parliament and a member of the committee in the parliament previous to that, and I deal a lot with accountability. I work a lot with the auditor general who, in his way, tries to hold the government accountable by releasing his independent reports, his criticisms and the problems that he finds. Sometimes they are overlooked by the government. Accountability means that one is responsible to forces that one does not control and that will affect one's behaviour. If the forces are not totally and absolutely out of one's control, if one can manage them, manipulate them and dominate them, then there is no accountability, regardless of what the justice minister says.

Parliament was created and then evolved over several hundreds of years in the U.K. It started off with a monarch who had absolute autocratic authority. He did what he wanted. He hung people, imprisoned people, taxed people and went to war. He did whatever he wanted with absolute, total, autocratic authority, and the people said no. Over several hundred years, the people wrestled from the monarchy the right to hold the government and the monarch accountable.

In the House, as 301 parliamentarians, perhaps excluding the government benches, it is our role to hold the government accountable. Unfortunately, we in this House either tend to think that we are part of government or, on the opposite side of the House, we hope that we become government. Therefore we lose our focus on what we in the House should be doing, which is to hold the government accountable.

As long as the Prime Minister says that he is doing his bit, that he has an ethics counsellor who reports to him, it is an outright sham when it comes to accountability. For the justice minister to speak in the House about how accountable the government is and to say that they will vote against the motion indicates the disdain by which they hold the House and the members who sit in the House.

We only have to look in the recent past at the HRDC billion dollar boondoggle. There were numerous HRDC audits in the last number of years, internal audits that did not cause change. However, when the final audit got into the public domain and the minister could no longer control the response to it, we finally had some real accountability because the minister had to respond to forces outside her control.

We had the Minister of Health, just yesterday, answering questions about the native treatment centre scandal in Manitoba. Why is that a scandal? Because there is no accountability. The financial statements are not available. The chief said that once the money flowed to the reserve it was no longer public money and he did not have to answer to anybody. Now we find after years that thousands and millions of dollars have gone astray.

We find that people are off on Caribbean cruises and they call it training. How can that be? The minute it becomes public and the minute that the chief no longer controls the responses and the demands for information, we find there is real accountability.

We had the Shawinigan affair in the Prime Minister's riding. Let us compare the ethics counsellor reporting to the Prime Minister and the chairman of the business development bank who lost his job because he was suggesting that he did not do what the Prime Minister wanted. I would expect that the ethics counsellor would have lost his job too if he did not do what the Prime Minister wanted. That is a great affront.

I draw attention to a parallel a couple of weeks ago in the U.K. parliament. The minister for Northern Ireland, Mr. Peter Mandelson, was economical with the truth. He gave some information to a junior minister who reported to parliament that turned out to be a bit shy of the whole story. Within two days he was no longer a minister. If that type of thing happens in our parliament, unfortunately it is glossed over and it is business as usual.

In the last few days the Minister of Foreign Affairs admitted to the House that he had not been in full command of all the facts in his department and his department had not been in full command of all the facts regarding the Russian diplomat who was expelled from Canada. He has by and large mislead the House because he was not up to his job.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I am having some difficulty with the last statement made by the hon. member. I would hope that he might continue his remarks by being somewhat more judicious.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has provided us with more information as the days go on which does not support what he said in the days before. He has suggested that he now is in command of more facts he has a different story to tell.

We can draw whatever conclusion we want from that. Had it been in the U.K. parliament he would have been gone. There is no question about that, none whatsoever. It did not cause a ripple in this place. That is why there is very little accountability here. That is why the Prime Minister is getting away with an ethics counsellor that reports to him rather than to the House. It is time the House wrestled back the responsibility it should have never given up to hold the government accountable.

We cannot expect the citizens on the street who are going about their daily lives to hold the government accountable. That is why we were elected.

The Parliament of Canada should hold the Government of Canada responsible. For the Prime Minister to suggest anything else would suggest that he is more of an autocrat than a democrat. Members of the House are getting fed up with stories about the ethics commissioner saying no rules were broken and that everything is fine. No rules were broken because there are no rules to break. That also speaks volumes.

Lack of accountability led to a billion dollar boondoggle at HRDC. Lack of accountability in the native treatment centre in Manitoba led to a huge waste of money. We now have all kinds of misgivings about the deal going on in the Prime Minister's riding. The auditor general is talking about gross incompetence in the Minister of Canadian Heritage's department because due diligence was not performed on 19% of the files.

Across the frontlines the government does not respect the fact that parliament's job is to hold it accountable. We unfortunately have given up far too much of our power. It is time we got it back. It is time the government was answerable to us and the Canadian people.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the hon. member opposite that there may be a profound misunderstanding, wilful or inadvertent, on the part of some members about what the ethics counsellor is or does.

I heard the hon. member refer to the ethics counsellor as an ethics commissioner. There is a very big difference. The opposition is clearly seeking someone who will be an enforcer, a policeman, a judge, someone who will do his or her job in enforcing a code of conduct or ethics. The ethics counsellor is none of those.

The ethics counsellor is a counsellor to those who are appointed, who are ministers, who are parliamentary secretaries, so that they can avoid the difficulties of conflict of interest and pre-empt difficult situations. That issue has been addressed back and forth today.

Let me put another issue to the hon. member. All of us in the House are busily holding forth on the issue of compliance with a code of conduct which would exist for ministers, for officeholders and for parliamentary secretaries. There is no code of conduct. For all of those here who are holding forth, there is no code of conduct for members of parliament. They are very willing to hoist upon the other officeholders a code of conduct, but not one element of a code of conduct applies to members in the House. That is business that we have to do.

Before we wax eloquent on what is missing in all of the other codes of conduct, I suggest we get our own House in order. I ask the member to comment on that.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the member was talking semantics about counsellor and commissioner. The Prime Minister is not accountable to the House and he should be. The intent of the red book motion was that the Prime Minister and the government be accountable. If the forces are beyond our control to manage then we are not accountable.

With regard to the second point raised about members of parliament not having a code of conduct, the Council of Europe has developed a clear code of conduct for its parliamentarians. I will be glad to work with the member to see if it can be introduced in the House.

I hope members of the House can move on, hopefully with the encouragement of the Prime Minister and the government. The justice minister said public office is a public trust. I hope we can rise to that level to ensure that our constituents have faith in us as we perform our responsibilities.

Let it start with the Prime Minister. Let him demonstrate how he will rise above the smelly little scandals that seem to be cropping up each and everywhere. He could set them aside by rising to a higher level of principle and ensuring that the government is accountable to the House.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I must agree with the hon. member who just spoke. There are a lot of semantics and careful, niggling little words being used in characterizing the office.

It is clear that the intent in the red book was to bring about accountability. The hon. member knows well about accountability. He very much makes it his passion in this place. He is the fiscal thistle who often brings out barbs of information against the government and its accountability to the House and to Canadians.

I want to put to the member the chronology of how things have unfolded. The Prime Minister owned a property. The Prime Minister sold the property. The property sale did not go through, therefore in some form it came back to him. It may have been in a blind trust, but it was a blind trust with a lot of peripheral vision. However, during the time that the property was not sold, when it was in an inbetween, purgatory stage, the Prime Minister was making representations to the Business Development Bank to assist an individual, well known by the Prime Minister, in the sale of a property adjoining his own that would therefore enhance the value of the property held by the Prime Minister.

Is this perception or reality? Is this not a conflict of interest that should be viewed by an individual with impartiality, not connected to the Prime Minister in any way, shape or form? That is what is at the crux of the issue that has led to this debate.

Does the hon. member have a comment with respect to the perception of the public in the chronology that I have just laid out?

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in the words of a wise person, whom I cannot remember at this time, if we have to ask if it is a conflict of interest, we can bet our boots that it is. Therefore, if we are ever concerned that we may be in a conflict of interest then we probably are in a conflict of interest.

[James Rajotte, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, let me congratulate you on your appointment as Speaker. As a new member I will certainly look to you for guidance as I deliberate in the House of Commons.

It is an honour and a privilege to stand here today in our national parliament on behalf of the people of Edmonton Southwest. Since this is my first address in this distinguished Chamber, I take this opportunity to express my sincere appreciation to the people of Edmonton Southwest. They have bestowed upon me a tremendous honour, but also a tremendous duty and a tremendous responsibility.

I also thank those people without whose efforts I would not be standing here today, not only for their efforts but also for their love and support. I especially thank my family, particularly my mother and father. One could not ask for more supportive parents. It is to their credit, as well as a credit to the democratic principles of our citizens, that the son of two school teachers can rise and be selected by his fellow citizens to represent their concerns and aspirations in our national parliament.

I also thank my friends, mentors and colleagues at the University of Alberta, particularly in the department of political science. I am quite cognizant to the reality that many individuals there may not have intended to help mould a Canadian Alliance member of parliament, but I am genuinely appreciative of their goodwill over the past number of years.

Last, I thank the previous member of parliament for Edmonton Southwest, Mr. Ian McClelland, with whom I worked for four years. This hon. gentleman is well known to members of the House and achieved something notable during his time here: respect from members on both sides of the House.

Since my arrival in parliament, many members have told me that I have big shoes to fill, in more ways than one. Ian himself would likely describe this as a Sisyphean challenge, but it is a challenge I readily and heartily accept.

The residents of Edmonton Southwest, if I can characterize them, are tough-minded, warm-hearted and principled people who focus on big issues and offer pragmatic solutions. They are very honest in their critiques, but when there is work to be done they roll up their sleeves and get to work.

During the recent election I noticed that their concerns related primarily to fiscal responsibility and the democratic nature of government.

That is why I am pleased to speak today to the official opposition motion. This motion speaks to the broad themes of democratic and parliamentary reform, accountability and transparency in government.

The motion states that the House adopt the following policy from Liberal red book one and calls for the immediate implementation of it by the government:

A Liberal Government will appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor to advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day-to-day application of the Code of Conduct for Public Officials. The Ethics Counsellor will be appointed after consultation with the leaders of all parties in the House of Commons and will report directly to Parliament.

While this motion is specifically related to the ethics counsellor, it does relate to the broader themes of parliamentary and democratic reform, fiscal responsibility, accountability and transparency, and members of parliament themselves.

During the recent election, people in Edmonton spoke passionately about the need for accountability from the government to ensure they were respected as citizens and that their taxpayer dollars were treated as funds in trust.

They were very frustrated by the spending problems within the Department of Human Resources Development, but were more frustrated by the unwillingness of the government to take responsibility for those financial problems.

They were particularly upset by the revelation that the auditor general was not able to present his report to the respective committee because of lack of attendance by government members. When this was combined with report of the information commissioner, in which he detailed concerns about the lack of openness in this government, people expressed grave concern about the lack of accountability and transparency of a government elected to serve their best interests.

A common frustration I encountered from people was that public officials did not seem accountable to them as citizens. They felt the only control they had was the opportunity every four years, or three and a half in this case, to walk into a polling booth and mark an X on a ballot.

One of the most serious problems facing Canadian democracy today is the concentration of political power within the Prime Minister's office and the lack of checks and balances to that power.

Canada today has what political scientist Donald Savoie called court government as distinguished from the cabinet government and parliamentary government of earlier political eras. We have almost reverted to what the hon. member for St. Albert was talking about, a monarchy style of government with a court that advises the monarch.

The Prime Minister's office has grown in size and scope since the 1960s. This size and corresponding increase in power is a threat not only to our fundamental rights and duties as parliamentarians, but also to our basic liberties as free and equal citizens.

Those are strong words, but I ask my fellow parliamentarians and fellow citizens to consider the powers currently exercised in Canada by one individual: the power to appoint all the members of the cabinet; the power to appoint all the members of the Supreme Court of Canada, which has become more involved in public policy decisions and our daily lives; the power to appoint all the members of the second national legislative body, the Senate; the power to influence and appoint all the chairmen of the parliamentary committees; and the power to control the House of Commons by disallowing free votes through a misuse of the confidence convention.

We have to ask ourselves whether having so much power in one office with one individual is healthy for our democracy. I believe we even have to question whether we are fulfilling those democratic traditions and principles we hold dear.

Regardless of the political party in power, regardless of the person in the office, the concentration of political power, combined with the extension of the state more and more into our everyday lives, is a serious threat to our fundamental rights as citizens. As more and more decisions are made that impact our lives, we as citizens have less control, if any, over these decisions.

One step to address the problem is to restore parliament to its proper role. With the increasing power of the Prime Minister's office and the increasing influence of the judiciary on public policy, the third aspect of our democracy, the legislature, has declined in importance. This is an unfortunate trend for a nation that was established in the British tradition of parliamentary democracy, where parliament was intended to be the highest institution of political authority.

Apart from historical reasons, one of the best reasons today for reinvigorating parliament and empowering parliamentarians is to fully utilize the talents of members in the House.

In my previous life as a political assistant and in my short time here so far, I have had the opportunity to witness some fine parliamentarians, men and women from all parties who are intelligent, independent minded individuals.

The current function of parliament within our institutional framework, combined with the manner in which this place operates, both of which are primarily caused by the concentration of political power, means that the skills of these thoughtful and deliberative MPs are not fully realized. I would argue in fact that they are barely realized.

One only has to think back to the debate this morning, when a member from another political party, the hon. member for Winnipeg—Transcona who I think all members would agree is one of the more thoughtful, deliberative parliamentarians spoke. He is has been in opposition almost his entire career. Think of what he can effect in terms of change? Are we fully utilizing the talents of members of parliament such as him if we simply sit on two sides of the aisle and have power so concentrated within the Prime Minister's Office?

In my view this motion attempts to tilt the balance back from the Prime Minister's office to parliament by having the ethics counsellor being appointed only after genuine consultation with the leaders of all parties and by having the ethics counsellor report directly to parliament.

This reporting directly to parliament will ensure the process is open and transparent to all Canadians. It will make public officials and lobbyists truly accountable for their actions. It will begin to make parliament and parliamentarians resume their rightful place as the institutional guardians of the public trust.

I would encourage all members on both sides of the House to reflect seriously on the motion and join with me in supporting its passage and implementation.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, a previous speaker alluded to the fact that there is no code of conduct for MPs in the House.

I would like to ask the new member whether he feels there should be a code of conduct for MPs and whether that code of conduct should be enforced by an ethics counsellor, some person outside of parliament who reports to parliament. Would he like to see such a situation?

[James Rajotte, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Southwest, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the best control over parliamentarians is the voters. As parliamentarians, we are directly responsible to the voters.

There is a difference between the government and parliament, and I think the hon. member for St. Albert alluded to this. There is a difference between the cabinet, which is responsible for ministries and departments, and parliament.

The change that happened in the Magna Carta was fundamental. It is fundamental that parliament, as the representative of the people, control how the cabinet exercises and disburses the money.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am going to be splitting my time with the hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington.

Congratulations on your appointment as Deputy Speaker. It is good to see you there. I am very comfortable with you being there.

I would like to extend my condolences to the family of the late David Iftody, our colleague who died so suddenly this past week.

I would also like to say hello to our colleague from Vaudreuil—Soulanges who has not been able to join us yet. His wife has been quite ill. We send our best wishes to him, to his wife and to his family.

I will start my comments by relating to the House some of the testimony of the ethics counsellor, Mr. Howard Wilson, which he gave in the 36th parliament to the industry committee. It is interesting that the ethics counsellor is appearing before a parliamentary committee. The members should know that one of the opportunities we have is that the ethics counsellor can be summoned to committee and in fact has been summoned to committee.

In his testimony, and it was related to many of the issues that have been raised in debate today, he referred to the conflict of interest code. The most recent version was tabled in the House of Commons by the Prime Minister in 1994. The member who just spoke should note that it applies not just to cabinet ministers, it also applies to parliamentary secretaries, their spouses and dependent children, members of ministers' political staff and essentially all full time governor in council appointees, senior members of the executive branch of government as well as part time appointees. In total the conflict of interest guidelines apply to an estimated 3,100 persons.

Imagine the number of times questions of ethics may come up with that many people. Imagine what would happen if all of a sudden the ethics counsellor were required to prepare a report or report through committee on the activities of his office in regard to some 3,100 people. Imagine the allegations that could be made. Even with the debate today, allegations have been made with regard to some of the current issues allegations have been made. All of these have been shown to be unsubstantiated allegations. All members would have access to all of this information, and it puts us in a very awkward position.

I really have some concern about having the ethics counsellor being a position where at the whim of parliamentarians they could start to get into a lot of the details of the operations of that office.

The parliamentary secretary to the House leader indicated that there was a difference between an ethics counsellor and an ethics commissioner. Much of the discussion today has taken place with regard to the policeman, the person who would be judge and jury. That is not exactly the description of the ethics counsellor. I wanted to put that on the table because we have to put this in context.

We also need to confirm that the code of ethical guidelines does not apply to members of parliament, nor to senators. Imagine the allegations that would be made, never mind by another member of parliament, perhaps by people in the public generally. Members will know from experience with their constituency offices that there are some fairly inquisitive people. Imagine if someone bought a $50 or $100 ticket for a fundraiser and then all of a sudden the person got an appointment. Someone in the House, regardless of what side, would jump up and say it was a conflict of interest or influence peddling and all kinds of things.

There is an incumbency on all members of parliament to be honourable members of parliament. We are taken at our word and when we speak in this place we always speak the truth. To suggest that a member has misled or lied or whatever is contrary to the rules of this place. We are all honourable members of parliament.

With that as a preamble, I would like to address specifically the details of the motion that is before this place. It is with regard to an undertaking that the government made in the 1993 election about establishing an ethics counsellor in the first place.

There are a number of elements to it. The government itself is accountable to parliament. We considered and passed the Lobbyists Registration Act and the ethics counsellor must enforce the provisions of it. The auditor general now reports to parliament up to four times a year. He can report almost as often as he wants in certain circumstances. The code of conduct has been strengthened for public officeholders. That was tabled in parliament and a copy is available to all Canadians on the parliamentary website. The Prime Minister and his ministers continue to be accountable to parliament for their policies and ethical behaviour.

We are accountable in this place. We are accountable for all of the things that we do. All of the information that passes through this place is available to members in one fashion or another, whether it be in the House during question period, or during debate, or during committee or other forums as well.

An independent ethics counsellor was established in accordance with the undertaking back in 1993. Principally, his job is to advise the Prime Minister on ministerial ethics issues. This is where I think the big responsibilities lie, because there is such a breadth of operations and responsibilities on our ministers.

It is important for Canadians to know that there is a very comprehensive code of ethics and guidelines on a variety of requirements. Members of parliament must declare their assets. They must establish blind trusts for certain assets. They are restricted in terms of certain outside activities. There are rules with respect to gifts and hospitality to ensure that there would not be in fact or an appearance to be out of line with hospitality type items to the avoidance of preferential treatment. It also sets out what happens in the conditions of failure to comply. It is a very important code of ethics that has been presented to the House by the Prime Minister.

In its totality what has happened so far fully complies with the spirit of the undertaking of the government that was laid out back in 1993. The Prime Minister has an ethics counsellor to ensure that he has the advice on all material matters of ethical conduct so that he can ensure that he is kept apprised of areas where there may be risks or problems of an ethical nature.

I stress though that we are not talking about illegal acts. Illegal acts are dealt with by our judicial system and by the RCMP. Members will know that RCMP investigations have been raised with regard to a number of allegations, whether they be HRDC or other matters that have come up over the years through the House.

In a fundamental sense because the ethics counsellor discharges those responsibilities, he is accountable to the House from the standpoint that he can and has been subpoenaed to appear before committee to answer questions.

Throughout the debate today we heard about a particular issue that had to do with the Prime Minister. The question is fundamental. Does the prime minister, when he becomes prime minister, cease to be a member of parliament? Do the constituents of the prime minister's riding give up their opportunity to be served and assisted by their member of parliament? It is an interesting question. It is pretty hard to imagine anyone not knowing that their member of parliament was also the prime minister. That fact alone, which is indisputable and certainly there is not much one can do about it, probably would have some influence in certain corners.

Fundamentally a member of parliament has to have the opportunity to represent the interests of his or her constituents, and in this particular case the Prime Minister did.

Today, I heard so many people rave about the allegations of impropriety of wrongdoing, when in fact the ethics counsellor, who was given a vote of confidence by all parties after appropriate consultation, opined on that. He said the Prime Minister had sold his interest in the golf course on November 1, 1993.

[Jim Abbott, Canadian Alliance, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Madam Speaker, it has been rather interesting to watch respected members, and I say that about this member, of the Liberal Party attempting to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

This issue is very simple and straightforward. With the greatest respect, I point out to the member that we are not talking about the spirit of what was promised by the Liberals. We are talking about the words that the Liberals promised. Apparently, there is a big difference between those two things.

The difficulty is that when the ethics counsellor does not report directly to parliament, and the Prime Minister sets the rules for the ethics counsellor, then the ethics counsellor will make the ruling based on those particular rules.

We all know that from time to time the House has to alter the criminal code. It has to alter the Health Act. It has to alter things to do with metric measurement. Things do evolve. In this instance, as long as it is out of the reach of parliament to set the rules, which a person of integrity like Howard Wilson will be deciding on, then it is not doing the job.

In 1993 this member and other Liberal members campaigned on the principle that the ethics counsellor “will report directly to parliament”. Those are five simple words. Let us not worry about the spirit. Let us worry about the words on which they campaigned. Why is the member trying to thread the needle here in such a way as to say that they are already doing it and that they do not need those words? We are simply asking him to do what he promised in 1993.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, the ethics counsellor is independent and the member will not even acknowledge that. The rules are not set by the Prime Minister. The rules guiding the conduct and the role of the ethics counsellor are set out in the conflict of interest and post-employment code for public office holders of June 1994, under which the ethics counsellor operates. I think the hon. member maybe misspoke himself in describing what the facts really are.

Second, the question comes down to whether it is better that he report to parliament. I do not know exactly what that means. Maybe it means to report annually to a committee or something or to allow us to go on a fishing expedition. The point is that I believe members of parliament, as demonstrated by what has happened so far, can have the ethics counsellor appear before committee to answer all the questions and to be fully accountable for all questions on matters that are his responsibility.

Third, members also have the opportunity to receive from the ethics commissioner any reports on anything. In fact the Leader of the Opposition and the leader of fifth party wrote letters asking for information and received it.

I do not believe that changing the instrument or vehicle in which the ethics counsellor operates could at all change what rights or opportunities members currently have. It would not change anything other than the fact that it might give parliamentarians an opportunity to go on wild fishing expeditions with regard to 3,100 persons who are covered by this code of ethics.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Madam Speaker, have listened to quite a bit of the debate on this motion today. I am going to give a hypothetical case because it has not happened in parliament but it has happened in a provincial legislature.

I would like to ask the member for Mississauga South whether he believes that the fact that the ethics commissioner is appointed by the Prime Minister would have any impact whatsoever on the ethics counsellor's integrity and independence in judging a complaint about a leader of an official opposition party benefiting to the tune of $800,000 of taxpayers' money to settle a private—

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Madam Speaker, first, I had an opportunity to review this opposition day motion. Quite frankly it is crass politics at its worst. It simply comes from the dying days of the campaign prior to November 27, when the reformed alliance people were floundering and did not know which way to turn, so they came up with this smear campaign against the Prime Minister. This is a man of enormous integrity, a man who has fought all his life to ensure good, decent and honest government, but here we have the kinds of antics we saw not only today but certainly leading up to the election as well, antics that denigrate the good character of the Prime Minister and others associated with him. I find it objectionable. I want to go on record as noting that. I think the good people of Waterloo—Wellington do as well.

We need to be very clear in terms of what has taken place. First, the ethics counsellor has repeatedly said that the Prime Minister at every step acted with great integrity and did not show favouritism or any kind of partiality. He did so on behalf of his constituents. Next, the highest court, the court of the electorate, spoke on November 27 and, first, re-elected the Liberal government but, second, noted that there were in fact some questions about the integrity of the leader of the reformed Alliance group.

Let us consider the evidence on that fact. First, as was pointed out by the hon. member in her question to the other member who spoke, the leader of the opposition has $792,064 worth of reasons why he should be looking at his own nest before he starts considering others. This was taxpayers' money that was paid out as a result of ego, arrogance and error. He could have settled with Mr. Goddard for $60,000. Did he do it? No, he did not. He let the taxpayers of Alberta pick up the tab.

It is hard to take when we put that in the context of the grandstanding we are seeing today. It is doubly galling when we think of the fact that on this very day, at nine o'clock mountain standard time, a civil court challenge is being launched by none other than the former Speaker of the Alberta legislature, who happens to be a colleague of the Leader of the Opposition. The former Speaker claims that that $800,000 price tag—for ethical or unethical behaviour, take your pick—was in fact unethical but also contrary to the rules of the legislature of Alberta and that taxpayers' funds were indeed used to settle a private defamation lawsuit. How ironic that it is happening on this very day.

Let us not forget another little story that took place about a month ago. When he was seeking a seat in the House of Commons last summer, the Alliance leader claimed that Jim Hart, the sitting member for Okanagan—Coquihalla, had willingly and of his own volition offered to give up his seat. Only recently did we find out that the seat had a price tag of $50,000.

Well, is it not so ironic that those people opposite, those holier than thou, reformed Alliance people, can always be on the side of the angels, depending on which way they spin their little web in their zealotry and other things? Fifty thousand dollars is a lot of money. In the Ottawa Sun of January 24, 2001, there is a quote which reads, “People would find it shocking. Fifty thousand bucks is a lot of money”. That was the member for Wild Rose saying this about his very own leader and his very own colleagues. There is a joke circulating on this point which says that the Alliance leader had the Albertans pay for his mouth and the Alliance Party pay for his seat. Whether or not that is funny I will leave for you to decide.

This is all on the heels of the former leader having a secret fund of $40,000 for clothing and other things. Here we go again with the duplicity and the hypocrisy.

Speaking of duplicity, hypocrisy and other matters, ethical or unethical, let us remember the member for Edmonton North, the high priestess of principle herself on pensions. There were pigs squealing, buttons in the House, pigs on the front lawn and other things, but she has found it in her heart, bless her dearly, to find $90,000 to buy back into the pension.

Do we not read today that the member for Medicine Hat has found $50,000 to do the same? He says he is finding it quite difficult to square with his constituents. Is it not always interesting to note that at one time they say one thing to certain groups of people in parts of the country when it is convenient to their purposes and quite another to another set of people at another time? It does not always seem to jibe, and the circle always does not get quite squared, but holier than thou as they are, they keep plugging away.

I will say here and now that we as a government take pride in the fact that we have provided an excellent service to Canadians. We have provided good governance in the keeping of Canadian values and institutions. The Prime Minister, the cabinet and this government brought forward the Lobbyists Registration Act, for example, on the heels of the election after the first mandate in 1993. The Prime Minister and the cabinet brought forward the notion of the ethics counsellor. We did so knowing it was in keeping with the will of the people and knowing that we would be transparent and accountable in a manner consistent with what Canadians want and consistent with what I believe Canadians deserve.

We have maintained and held onto those high ethical standards, in keeping, then, with what parliamentary democracy is all about, in keeping with the constituents' wishes. We have ensured that we have the kinds of appointments and ethical considerations in place that keep us moving in a way that is consistent with what Canadians want us to do.

Why did we do it? When we took power in 1993, what a rogues' gallery there was under the Mulroney era. Need I remind the House that as a direct result of that, it was the ethics counsellor who brought forward the kinds of things that we now have in place because of what took place with the Tories prior to 1993. I could go through the list. There were Sinclair Stevens and the royal commission that concluded there were violations of 14 different conflicts of interest. I could talk about André Bissonnette, the Minister of Transport, who left cabinet as a result of flipping land that went from $800,000 to $3 million in 11 days. I could talk about Roch LaSalle and others. I could go on to Michel Coté and Senator Michel Cogger.

Earlier I wanted to ask the Conservatives something, because they were getting on their high horse too. They were going on about the kinds of clean and ethical things that they are capable of, yet we saw the rogues' gallery that preceded us in 1993. I want to know why Conservative Senator Eric Berntson is still sitting as a member of their caucus. If they are on such high moral ground, they should be asking for his resignation. They should be booting him out.

Do we remember that corrupt government of Grant Devine and the kinds of things that were happening there? He is still sitting as a member of their caucus. If they are on such high moral ground, the first thing they should be doing is getting him out.

I find that at the end of the day this government has acted with honesty and integrity and continues to do so on behalf of the people of this great country. For the reformed Alliance people to bring in this kind of crass political motion and to do so in light of their pension flip-flop, in light of the $800,000 that their leader has squandered on behalf of the taxpayers of Alberta, in light of paying $50,000 for Jim Hart's seat, in light of point after point of questionable ethics and doing it with the holier than thou attitude that only those people opposite have, I can tell you this: the good folks in Waterloo—Wellington do not cut to that kind of chase. They see hypocrisy where it is every time and I can tell you that on this day in this parliament it resides on those benches.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Madam Speaker, I really appreciate some of the examples that the member from Waterloo—Wellington gave about some of the incidents we could qualify as conflict of interest incidents or as unethical.

Does the member perchance have any other examples on the part of the official opposition party or perhaps on the part of the former government party, the Progressive Conservatives? I, as well as those in my riding, would be most interested.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I am interested in these kinds of matters. I find it interesting to do the research to get to the bottom of these kinds of issues.

I can tell the House that the Conservatives under Mr. Mulroney had a decade of arrogance and high-handness when it came to the issue of conflict of interest and the unethical behaviour that took place. What happened was a crying shame. Members will note that under the leadership of the Prime Minister and this government that has not been the pattern.

I could go on at length about the reformed Alliance people, those holier than thous who sit on that side of the House and preach the gospel of always being on the moral high ground when in fact they are down in the gutter to the extent of $800,000.

We have to think about the member for Edmonton North and her pension. I was playing the tape not so long ago and listening to the pig sounds. The snorting was incredible. The pigs were out on the front lawn of this great parliament and there were pig buttons, and all of a sudden that is all supposed to be forgotten. Those members ran a couple of elections on the fact that they would never buy into pensions and now it is “oh, let us conveniently forget it”. The member for Medicine Hat said that it was hard to square with his constituents, but he wants back in. It is unbelievable.

The hypocrisy, the duplicity, the flip-flopping, the holier-than-thou-ism are unbelievable. It is so sacrosanct, and yet at the same time they are sucking and blowing whenever they think they can get away with it. I object and so do the people on this side of the House, as do my constituents of Waterloo—Wellington and most Canadians, because Canadians spot hypocrisy and duplicity every time, especially from those who always claim the moral high ground. That is when it galls the most and that is exactly what we are seeing here today.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Madam Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon. member. There is no doubt that many of us here in the House would agree that there are certain basic rules and principles that we should adhere to.

The member, in his holier than thou attitude, basically set the parameters under which we should all operate. He looked at examples of the past and, perhaps rightly so, pointed out individuals and occasions about which none of us can hold our heads high and say that we agreed with what people did. In saying so, the member himself undoubtedly is saying he does not agree with this either.

Is the member then saying that because he does not agree with this underhanded work, the conflict of interest we have seen in the past, his leader, the Prime Minister, should meet his Waterloo—not to pun the member's district—and perhaps step aside? He is in the same boat as many of the others the member was talking about.

Are you also saying that your leader is wrong? That is the impression you have given the House.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I remind the hon. members to address the Chair and not each other.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Madam Speaker, I can clear this up very quickly. That is not at all what I said.

What I was pointing out about the previous Tory administration is that between 1986 and 1988 there were no less than 14 incidents of conflict of interest. We had to clean up that mess. That is exactly what the Prime Minister, the cabinet and the government did. We cleaned up that mess. As a result, we now have good conflict of interest guidelines in place. There is a conflict of interest person who, under the ethics commission and counsellor, does what is required.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Prince Albert. As this is my first speech in the new 37th parliament, I will begin by thanking the people of Dewdney—Alouette for entrusting me with the honour to serve them for a second term.

I thank my wife Wendy and my four wonderful children for their continued love and support. I thank my entire family, my campaign team and my supporters who worked so hard for so long. I also thank my hard working staff, Tara, Randy and Mark, for their endless hours of support, encouragement and dedicated efforts, and give great thanks to God for his grace and guidance in my life.

The motion before the House today is one of significant importance. I believe the motion before us and the subsequent vote provides all members of parliament a landmark opportunity to debate and work together to achieve a very important change in the way the government conducts its business.

The action which we are championing with a non-partisan nature is one which could signal to Canadians that those of us who have been sent here to represent the people are willing to put aside bitter partisan bickering for the greater good of the nation.

In the recent election fewer people came out to vote than in any time in our country's history. We can draw many conclusions from this. However I think it is obvious that our people are withdrawing. More and more of our citizens, particularly young people, are deciding that it simply does not matter what they do at the polls, that things in Ottawa will never change.

This is an attitude that more and more of our citizens are developing across regions, across age groups and in all cross-sections of Canadian society. The simple fact is that fewer people are involved in the political discourse of the country. As members of parliament this should be of great concern to all of us.

It is of great concern to me. On a personal level, I learned through my father's experience as a veteran of the second world war the great price that was paid for our freedom, for our democracy, and for what we hold dear in this great country. I will never forget my father's admonition to be involved and to take the opportunity to vote always. I have done that and I encourage others to do the same, to be involved.

As public figures we face the rigours of public scrutiny. We need to be held accountable for our actions, as all people do. We have been entrusted with a really great responsibility. People are looking for leaders who are willing to be transparent, honest and ethical. All successful organizations which stand the test of time are committed to these principles.

It is true that organizations could flourish for a time even though they may neglect these ethical principles, but ultimately the lack of principle would lead to that institution's eventual demise. That is why I believe that we can work together to pass a motion which was developed by the governing Liberals themselves.

We must give credit where credit is due. The motion to appoint an independent ethics counsellor who reports directly to parliament was promised to Canadians in red book one. We will allow the government to take credit for the initiative it brought forward.

I will take a minute to rebut some of the arguments by the government that I have heard today. There have been many attempts to deflect attention away from the motion by focusing on other issues. It is a staid old measure in the government members' arsenal to deflect attention about their own actions by attacking others. We are used to that. Canadians are tired of those kinds of tactics.

I will address specific points raised earlier in the House by the government House leader. On several occasions in debate he said that the current ethics counsellor reports to the House of Commons. He stated that the ethics counsellor reports on lobbyists activities and reports to parliamentary committees in regard to the estimates.

Let me be very clear and let Canadians understand the process under which the current ethics counsellor must operate. He is appointed by the Prime Minister, paid by the government and reports to the Prime Minister in regard to conflict issues involving himself and his ministers.

The Prime Minister will not release the guidelines that the ethics counsellor uses and he is under no obligation to release any of these reports. The ethics counsellor does not have investigative powers. In essence, he is bound from being able to do what really needs to be done in order to have an independent investigation.

The assertion made by the government House leader in regard to the independence of the ethics counsellor was simply inaccurate due to the current process that is in place. The government House leader went on to argue that if we did not have the current provisions in regard to the ethics counsellor in place brought in by the government, a future prime minister might say with regard to questionable activities “It is not my fault; ask the ethics counsellor”. That was a point made by the government House leader.

I assert that this may not only happen in the future but it is exactly what is happening with regard to the current Prime Minister's Shawinigan circumstances. That is the current defence being offered by the Prime Minister in regard to the many police investigations into grants and loans in the Prime Minister's riding and in regard to his involvement with the Business Development Bank.

I submit to my colleagues that it is cold solace to any minister of the crown, or Prime Minister, to be cleared of any wrongdoing by a process that is so obviously flawed. Would it not be better to have an independent ethics counsellor who could delve into allegations with investigative powers to clear up all details having to do with a conflict case? That simply does not happen now under the current process.

Subsection 23(3) of the conflict of interest code states:

A public office holder shall not accord preferential treatment in relation to any official matter to family members or friends or to organizations in which they, family members or friends, have an interest—

It is a bit beyond all credibility for Canadians to accept the fact that the Prime Minister can pick up the phone for any of his constituents and call the president of the Business Development Bank of Canada and encourage him to grant a loan to a high risk file against the president's better judgment. That is simply too far of a stretch, but that is what the Prime Minister wants Canadians to believe in regard to the Duhaime case.

The Prime Minister called the president on behalf of Mr. Duhaime, a friend who had taken the Grand-Mère hotel off his hands. The most powerful elected official in the country intervened on behalf of a friend. Something is very wrong with this picture.

It has become clear through the course of debate today that the government is unlikely to support its own idea promised to Canadians in its own red book. The government, earlier today, attempted to pull some procedural tactics to change the entire intent of the Canadian Alliance motion, which I believe has the support of all opposition parties in the House. It is indeed a sad day when the government engages in these types of tactics in an attempt to extricate itself from a very difficult situation.

There is hope though. The Canadian Alliance will continue to work together with others in a non-partisan manner to bring forth suggestions, even suggestions presented by others, including the government, as is the case with the motion today.

Why are we willing to do that? The opportunity for change is before us now, today. Let us work together to make some concrete changes to restore the dignity of all members and the House of Commons. Let all of us together signal to Canadians that we are less concerned about being right and more concerned about doing what is right for our country.

I urge all members to support this positive motion, first suggested by the government itself, brought forward by the Canadian Alliance today, and supported by all opposition parties. If we do that today, make a change and move forward, I believe we will set a positive tone in this place and restore the dignity and honour accorded to all hon. members from all parties who have made a great sacrifice to be here on behalf of their constituents. If we are able to do that today, I believe we can send an important message to all Canadians. Let us do that today and move forward on this initiative.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the member for Dewdney—Alouette a direct question. I will resist taking a shot at him because of the ethics counsellor, the promises made, the level of debate in this place, the way we treat one another, the amount of respect we have for the House and the amount of respect we have for each other as parliamentarians.

I would like to ask the member a question that I was dying to ask the member for Waterloo—Wellington when he was up showing a complete lack of respect for this institution and the members who sit in this institution. I want to put forth to the member from Alouette a question on the behaviour of the Prime Minister.

This question was asked of the Prime Minister this morning, but we did not get an answer, so I will ask the member from Dewdney—Alouette. In January 1996 the Prime Minister confided to the ethics counsellor that he still had shares in the golf club adjacent to the Auberge Grand-Mère. Although he thought he got rid of his shares in 1993, he found out in 1996 that he actually still owned those shares, which he had never received payment for. We must understand that the value of these shares in the golf club adjacent to the Auberge Grand-Mère would be directly enhanced by any improvements made to the hotel.

How could anyone say there was not a conflict of interest? The Prime Minister, within 90 days, was lobbying the president of the Business Development Bank of Canada on behalf of the owner of the Auberge Grand-Mère. How can anyone say that did not directly influence and enhance the value of the shares in that golf club? I would like to hear an answer from the hon. member.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, my colleague makes a good summary of a lot of details having to do with what appears obvious to most Canadians, that is, there is a conflict here with the Prime Minister and the things that have been happening in his riding.

With regard to the issues he raises, I think it is obvious to many people that although the Prime Minister claimed to have been cleared by the ethics counsellor, that process is broken and does not entirely reflect the facts of the matter. If we were to get to the bottom of the facts and the details that are shrouded in a cloud of bureaucratic secrecy through the process the Prime Minister has established, I think it would be apparent to all that there is in fact a conflict in the situation.