Mr. Speaker, I am going to be splitting my time with the hon. member for Waterloo—Wellington.
Congratulations on your appointment as Deputy Speaker. It is good to see you there. I am very comfortable with you being there.
I would like to extend my condolences to the family of the late David Iftody, our colleague who died so suddenly this past week.
I would also like to say hello to our colleague from Vaudreuil—Soulanges who has not been able to join us yet. His wife has been quite ill. We send our best wishes to him, to his wife and to his family.
I will start my comments by relating to the House some of the testimony of the ethics counsellor, Mr. Howard Wilson, which he gave in the 36th parliament to the industry committee. It is interesting that the ethics counsellor is appearing before a parliamentary committee. The members should know that one of the opportunities we have is that the ethics counsellor can be summoned to committee and in fact has been summoned to committee.
In his testimony, and it was related to many of the issues that have been raised in debate today, he referred to the conflict of interest code. The most recent version was tabled in the House of Commons by the Prime Minister in 1994. The member who just spoke should note that it applies not just to cabinet ministers, it also applies to parliamentary secretaries, their spouses and dependent children, members of ministers' political staff and essentially all full time governor in council appointees, senior members of the executive branch of government as well as part time appointees. In total the conflict of interest guidelines apply to an estimated 3,100 persons.
Imagine the number of times questions of ethics may come up with that many people. Imagine what would happen if all of a sudden the ethics counsellor were required to prepare a report or report through committee on the activities of his office in regard to some 3,100 people. Imagine the allegations that could be made. Even with the debate today, allegations have been made with regard to some of the current issues allegations have been made. All of these have been shown to be unsubstantiated allegations. All members would have access to all of this information, and it puts us in a very awkward position.
I really have some concern about having the ethics counsellor being a position where at the whim of parliamentarians they could start to get into a lot of the details of the operations of that office.
The parliamentary secretary to the House leader indicated that there was a difference between an ethics counsellor and an ethics commissioner. Much of the discussion today has taken place with regard to the policeman, the person who would be judge and jury. That is not exactly the description of the ethics counsellor. I wanted to put that on the table because we have to put this in context.
We also need to confirm that the code of ethical guidelines does not apply to members of parliament, nor to senators. Imagine the allegations that would be made, never mind by another member of parliament, perhaps by people in the public generally. Members will know from experience with their constituency offices that there are some fairly inquisitive people. Imagine if someone bought a $50 or $100 ticket for a fundraiser and then all of a sudden the person got an appointment. Someone in the House, regardless of what side, would jump up and say it was a conflict of interest or influence peddling and all kinds of things.
There is an incumbency on all members of parliament to be honourable members of parliament. We are taken at our word and when we speak in this place we always speak the truth. To suggest that a member has misled or lied or whatever is contrary to the rules of this place. We are all honourable members of parliament.
With that as a preamble, I would like to address specifically the details of the motion that is before this place. It is with regard to an undertaking that the government made in the 1993 election about establishing an ethics counsellor in the first place.
There are a number of elements to it. The government itself is accountable to parliament. We considered and passed the Lobbyists Registration Act and the ethics counsellor must enforce the provisions of it. The auditor general now reports to parliament up to four times a year. He can report almost as often as he wants in certain circumstances. The code of conduct has been strengthened for public officeholders. That was tabled in parliament and a copy is available to all Canadians on the parliamentary website. The Prime Minister and his ministers continue to be accountable to parliament for their policies and ethical behaviour.
We are accountable in this place. We are accountable for all of the things that we do. All of the information that passes through this place is available to members in one fashion or another, whether it be in the House during question period, or during debate, or during committee or other forums as well.
An independent ethics counsellor was established in accordance with the undertaking back in 1993. Principally, his job is to advise the Prime Minister on ministerial ethics issues. This is where I think the big responsibilities lie, because there is such a breadth of operations and responsibilities on our ministers.
It is important for Canadians to know that there is a very comprehensive code of ethics and guidelines on a variety of requirements. Members of parliament must declare their assets. They must establish blind trusts for certain assets. They are restricted in terms of certain outside activities. There are rules with respect to gifts and hospitality to ensure that there would not be in fact or an appearance to be out of line with hospitality type items to the avoidance of preferential treatment. It also sets out what happens in the conditions of failure to comply. It is a very important code of ethics that has been presented to the House by the Prime Minister.
In its totality what has happened so far fully complies with the spirit of the undertaking of the government that was laid out back in 1993. The Prime Minister has an ethics counsellor to ensure that he has the advice on all material matters of ethical conduct so that he can ensure that he is kept apprised of areas where there may be risks or problems of an ethical nature.
I stress though that we are not talking about illegal acts. Illegal acts are dealt with by our judicial system and by the RCMP. Members will know that RCMP investigations have been raised with regard to a number of allegations, whether they be HRDC or other matters that have come up over the years through the House.
In a fundamental sense because the ethics counsellor discharges those responsibilities, he is accountable to the House from the standpoint that he can and has been subpoenaed to appear before committee to answer questions.
Throughout the debate today we heard about a particular issue that had to do with the Prime Minister. The question is fundamental. Does the prime minister, when he becomes prime minister, cease to be a member of parliament? Do the constituents of the prime minister's riding give up their opportunity to be served and assisted by their member of parliament? It is an interesting question. It is pretty hard to imagine anyone not knowing that their member of parliament was also the prime minister. That fact alone, which is indisputable and certainly there is not much one can do about it, probably would have some influence in certain corners.
Fundamentally a member of parliament has to have the opportunity to represent the interests of his or her constituents, and in this particular case the Prime Minister did.
Today, I heard so many people rave about the allegations of impropriety of wrongdoing, when in fact the ethics counsellor, who was given a vote of confidence by all parties after appropriate consultation, opined on that. He said the Prime Minister had sold his interest in the golf course on November 1, 1993.