Debates of Feb. 8th, 2001

Supply

[Murray Calder, Liberal, Dufferin—Peel—Wellington—Grey, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with a lot of interest to the speech across the way. The member talked about ethics and credibility. I am 100% in support of what he said but I have a question for him.

However, we are not quite three months after the election and just recently two of his colleagues, the member for Edmonton North and the member for Medicine Hat said they would be taking the pension. However, in the last three elections they campaigned against taking a pension.

How fair is that to the voters in those two ridings who listened to these two individuals at all candidates debates say they would not take a pension? Then, less than three months after the election they reversed their decisions. That is the party that talks about recall. Should ethics not demand that those members voluntarily put themselves forward for recall and that a byelection be called in their ridings to give the voters a chance to vote on this?

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let us talk about some truth on the issue of pensions. I am glad the member brought it up.

First, when we were elected in 1993 our position was to have parity with the public service. Second, when we were elected in 1993, the MP pension was far more lucrative than it is today. Why? The then Reform Party brought up solutions and forced the government to change the pensions so that there would be no more double dipping and MPs could not receive a pension when they left after six years. Now MPs receive the pension after the age of 55 and the pension is far less lucrative.

That is what this party did. It would have never happened if the Reform Party had not come on the scene. We are looking for equality and parity with the public service. We have pushed the government far along those ways and we have a lot of which to be proud.

[Jocelyne Girard-Bujold, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your election as Speaker of the House of Commons. I am satisfied, based on what you said concerning a government motion, that we will have a very good Speaker of the House.

I would like to put a question to my colleague in the Canadian Alliance. I am finding that, at the moment, the members of the Liberal Party are arrogantly trying to cloud the issue, instead of debating the text of the motion taken from their 1993 red book. Our Liberal colleague who asked a question before me surprisingly spoke of pensions, after the Canadian Alliance members accepted pensions.

We are talking about an ethics counsellor. We are not concerned with the person who is the ethics counsellor, but rather the rules that should be set in order to give this counsellor real powers under the authority of parliament or of the leaders of the political parties. At the moment, the Prime Minister makes the appointment, with his rules, and is the one to whom the counsellor is accountable.

I would like to ask my colleague in the Canadian Alliance how his party's motion, a verbatim copy of the 1993 Liberal Party red book, should be understood and accepted so that we may proceed with real parliamentary reform?

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, absolutely, this particular motion comes directly from the government's red book. It is a promise the government made.

We agree with the government's position in the Liberal red book. The simple question we are asking is why has it not implemented the promise for an independent ethics counsellor. It is that simple. We are also saying to the government that it has widespread agreement on all party lines on its promise to have an ethics counsellor. Why has it not implemented an ethics counsellor? I do not know why that is. That is why we are asking these questions. Not one member of the government has stood up today and given us one rational answer as to why they have not implemented their original promise.

[Gary Lunn, Canadian Alliance, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I too would like to commend you on your decision. I was very pleased to see that and hear the reasons for your decision. We look forward to your speakership over many years to come.

The debate we are having today is all about one word. It is about ethics. I listened to the Liberal members. I hope they will take this in all sincerity. It is time we start to bring about changes to the House for the betterment of all Canadians and for all members, not just the members on this side. We do need to make changes and they know it.

There is far too much power surrounding the office of the prime minister which has evolved over the years. It has grown and grown and has got stronger and stronger, even more so since the Liberals took power. It is time we changed that.

We have a House of 301 members. We are not all utilized in the House. There are great ideas that we bring forward from our constituents. When I was first elected to the fisheries committee in 1997, we wrote unanimous reports. Those reports are now collecting dust.

The motion is a small step that we can bring forward for a positive change. It is a change that one would think the government would be open to, particularly as the Liberal red book of 1993 said:

A Liberal government will appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor to advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day-to-day application of the Code of Conduct for Public Officials. The Ethics Counsellor will be appointed after consultation with the leaders of all parties in the House of Commons and will report directly to Parliament.

The key is reporting directly to parliament to ensure that we have openness and transparency.

I heard some members say a few minutes ago that there were consultations with the leaders of all parties on the appointment of the ethics counsellor, Mr. Wilson, and I am sure is a man of integrity. At that time, it was the Reform Party and the member for Calgary Southeast was the leader. I spoke to him about the consultation. He described the consultation as being a phone call from the Prime Minister who said Mr. Wilson was being appointed as the ethics counsellor. We have seen that time and time again from the executive of the government. Its idea of consultation is to tell us what it is going to do.

The government talks about partisanship, and how dare the official opposition bring this motion forward. It says it is trickery and all of that. I point out that there are five official parties in the House of Commons and that the Canadian Alliance, the Bloc, the Progressive Conservative Party and the New Democratic Party are all united on this motion. They just happen to be all in opposition. All of these parties agree that this is very important and that it is the right thing to do. Some of the speeches I listened were quite passionate about this.

If the Liberal Party was in opposition there is no question that it too would agree with this. Let me give you some quotes from when it was in opposition. On February 17, 1993, the government House leader moved the following motion::

That this House condemns the government for its continued failure to establish and to adhere to a clear and high standard of public sector ethics, for its incessant inability to function within the framework of existing legislation, guidelines and standards, and for its reluctance to bring forward strict new codes and legislation with regard to conflicts and other public ethic matters

When the Prime Minister was the leader of the opposition, he said “In order to achieve this agenda's integrity and public trust in the institutions of government are essential”. He went on about the word trust. Right now we have an ethics counsellor who does not report to parliament. He reports in secrecy to the Prime Minister. There is no openness. There is no transparency.

Unless all 301 members of the House have the courage to stand up and start doing what is right and start bringing about changes to this institution, the public's perception of this institution will continue to decline. We can change that if we want to want to bring back meaningful debate.

On Monday the Board of Internal Economy will be voting on whether the committee chairs should be voted in by secret ballot. There is another opportunity for government members who sit on that board to do what is right.

When the backbenchers step outside this door, when they are not on the record, they tell us all the time that yes, we need changes. They say they would like to have some influence with the government. Many of the government members will argue that they have less influence than the members of the opposition. Again, it is time that we start earning respect. We will earn that respect only if we have the courage to bring about these changes.

The motion put forward the Canadian Alliance was drafted by the Liberal Party. I know it was drafted before the Liberal Party was elected to government. It was a 1993 election promise which they have not fulfilled.

I ought to emphasize that, setting patronage aside, the four opposition parties passionately want to see this happen. It is time that the members on the other side have the courage to do what is right so that they can look at themselves in the mirror. It is time they start bringing about changes to this institution. It is essential that we do that.

I want to commend the one member from the government, the new member for Vancouver Quadra. I do not know if someone from the House leader's office has got to the new member yet and rapped his knuckles, but he had the courage to speak out and do the right thing.

This new member for Vancouver Quadra, the former ombudsman for British Columbia, was asked about this very issue on the weekend. Again, I would like to commend Vaughn Palmer from the Vancouver Sun for writing about this and bringing it to the attention of all Canadians.

I will quote the Liberal member for Vancouver Quadra. He said:

We've led the country in conflict-of-interest legislation. Our special prosecutor legislation is unique in Canada and in the Commonwealth.

He went on to say:

One of them is the conflict-of-interest commissioner who is a legislature officer rather than part of the executive of the government and therefore independent of the executive.

It is not so in the federal parliament. He continued:

We've gained good experience, proud experience and the federal government may want to look at that.

This is the Liberal member for Vancouver Quadra who was putting forward positive ideas that were absolutely in sync with this motion. I have to say that the member was completely open and forthright.

When asked about the Prime Minister lobbying the federal business development bank three times on behalf of a constituent, the member said he was not comfortable with what happened with the Prime Minister and the federal business development bank. The member said:

I don't think any of us should be comfortable with the confusion and the public unease that it has caused. This is something we've learned earlier in B.C., that you need to make the rules very explicit, that you need to make the review processes very transparent and independent. I think this is something I can take with experience to Ottawa.

Let me sum up. We have to earn the trust and confidence of every Canadian and they want to see changes. We can make this institution so much more effective. We can utilize the talents of all 301 members from all sides of the House if we have the courage to do so.

On Tuesday the government members will have the opportunity to vote on their own idea, their own motion that they drafted back in 1993. I hope they will have the courage to do what is right and start taking the first baby steps toward bringing positive changes back to this institution.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I had an opportunity to look at the transcript of the ethics counsellor's appearance before the industry committee in the last parliament, which I think would be useful as a preamble here. It states that the provisions of the conflict of interest code

apply to members of the cabinet, parliamentary secretaries, spouses and dependent children, members of ministers' political staff, and essentially all full-time Governor-in-Council appointees—in other words, the senior members of the executive branch of government. This involves approximately 1,200 persons, with another 1,900 part-time appointees subject to the principles of the code.

Interestingly enough, the code does not apply to other members of parliament or to senators. I think it is a very important point, because both the last speaker and the previous speaker talked about how we need this ethics counsellor so that we can be kept on our toes. In fact it is not applicable to MPs. It opens up quite a different question if that is what the member is proposing.

However, my question to the member would be maybe more fundamental. Could the member advise the House what it is members of parliament would be able to do if the ethics counsellor reported through a reporting system and a committee that they cannot do today under the current arrangement? What exactly can they not do today?

[Gary Lunn, Canadian Alliance, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, let me take the questions in order. First of all with respect to the point that opposition members and backbench government members do not come under the purview of the ethics counsellor, I agree with the member. Absolutely we should. There is nothing wrong with that. I agree 100%. Right now the power is surrounded, in the Prime Minister and the executive. The member is quite right and I would support that. It would be another positive step that all members should be made accountable.

On his second question about what we cannot do now, the ethics counsellor reports only to the Prime Minister. We cannot get those reports. They go only to the Prime Minister. They do not go to all members of parliament. They are not tabled in the House. That is what would change. If we had that openness, that transparency, that total public scrutiny, it would hold all people to a much higher level of standards. I believe it would probably lead to keeping some of them a whole lot more honest.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the previous speaker. I know he is very sincere in his remarks and he brings the appropriate tone to this debate.

He began his remarks by speaking of the main issue being ethics. I think the majority of people who have participated in the debate would certainly agree. However, there has to be credibility behind those asking the questions as well. There has to be an element of accountability. That is to say that a person is on solid ground when he or she is asking the questions or, in this instance, that when the ethics counsellor is tasked with overseeing the activity of the Prime Minister or another member of the House, he or she has that credibility and that accountability to this place.

The member has honed in on the difficulty of that position here. It is not personal. It is not about Mr. Wilson. It is about the office and the position he holds. Would the member not agree that the intent was that he would report to the House, that he would do just that? Would the member not agree that was certainly the intent when the Prime Minister and his government went before the electorate representing to the public that this commissioner was going to report to parliament?

I want to quote from the backgrounder that was attached to the original release when it was announced that the position of ethics commissioner—counsellor at that time—would be created. It said “The ethics counsellor will be available to the Prime Minister to investigate allegations against his ministers and senior officials involving conflicts of interest or lobbying”.

The difficulty is that if he is available to the Prime Minister, he is not available to the House when he is investigating the Prime Minister. Would the hon. member comment on that suggestion?

[Gary Lunn, Canadian Alliance, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the member from the Progressive Conservative Party. He is absolutely right. If I understand him correctly, what he is referring to is this: not only is it important, as this motion says, that the ethics counsellor reports directly to parliament, but it is also important that all members of parliament and other people have access to the ethics counsellor during the investigations so that they can put forward submissions, so that they can have a dialogue. Right now that ethics counsellor is only available to one person, the Prime Minister, the person who appoints him.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be splitting my time.

It seems to me that when we are talking about ethics, the first way to derail the conversation is to trash talk and put the opposition, or in the other case the government, on the defensive. At the end of the day all we end up doing is maybe improving our eligibility to be NBA players. Beyond that it does not seem to add much to the debate.

Possibly we can refrain from discussing specific instances and try to deal with the merits of the case. I appreciate that this may be a novel concept in this Chamber.

The motion reads:

That this House adopt the following policy from Liberal Redbook 1 and call for its implementation by the government: “A Liberal Government will appoint an independent Ethics Counsellor to advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day-to-day application of the Code of Conduct for Public Officials. The Ethics Counsellor will be appointed after consultation with the leaders of all the parties in the House of Commons and will report directly to Parliament.”

On the face of it there does seem to be merit in the motion. The response of the government to the red book promise in 1994 was to create an office of an ethics counsellor who is independent. I would dare to say that we have done that. We have created the office of an independent ethics counsellor to advise public officials, mainly the government, the cabinet and parliamentary secretaries, and lobbyists, which is a separate item altogether, of the day to day application of the code of conduct. That has been done.

The nub of the issue is whether the ethics counsellor should report directly to parliament. The ethics counsellor is to review ethical issues that come before the Prime Minister and ministers of the crown, to deal not only with real conflicts of interest but with perceived conflicts of interest. He is there to give guidance and counsel. He has additional responsibility under the Lobbyists Registration Act, which, as I said, is not relevant to this debate.

I take it as a given that the opposition is not seeking an expansion of the role of the ethics counsellor; rather, they are merely wishing to change the reporting function from what it is presently, namely to the Prime Minister, to directly to parliament. Again on the face of it, there does seem to be merit in the position of the opposition—if opposition members had no access to the decisions made by the ethics counsellor.

However, as members of the opposition know, the ethics counsellor is a compellable witness before a House of Commons committee. He is even compellable before the House. Indeed, his decisions and his material are subject to freedom of information. It is hard to imagine a more accessible officer. If a member wants to review the activities of the ethics counsellor, a committee can summon him to appear, regardless of what the Prime Minister thinks.

The essence of the debate is therefore quite simple. Should an ethics counsellor report directly to the Prime Minister with an additional reporting function to a parliamentary committee and, indeed, parliament, or should he have a statutory responsibility to report directly to parliament?

It seems to me that if there is to be a change from reporting to the Prime Minister with a potential of reporting to a committee, as opposed to reporting to parliament directly, then there has to be a case made by the opposition that the work of the current ethics counsellor is deficient in some respect. May I suggest that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

At this point it is my view that the opposition has not made its case. In fact, a number of members of the opposition have indicated that they believe that the ethics counsellor is a man of untarnished reputation. I appreciate the concession on the part of the opposition that this is not a personalized attack on the ethics counsellor.

The next question therefore becomes, is there material before the House which would lead a reasonable person to conclude that the current ethics counsellor is not doing his job in a fair or impartial manner?

Having listened to the representations of the opposition members and having read in the press about interpretations and representations of all members, I am not at all persuaded that there has been any evidence produced that this ethics counsellor is not doing his work in other than optimum conditions, and I am persuaded that he speaks with a force of moral authority to members of the government, which requires those members to take action. On the face of it, members of the cabinet, the Prime Minister and parliamentary secretaries respond very quickly to what the ethics counsellor has to say.

I suppose the best evidence is that in the course of three elections and subsequent mandates, there has not been a taint or a whiff of scandal or conflict among the members of cabinet, the parliamentary secretaries and the Prime Minister himself, notwithstanding vigorous attacks by the opposition and the press. Indeed, the press seems to be somewhat fatigued by the exercise.

The biggest endorsement, of course, is three majorities in a row. My recollection of the election is that notwithstanding the effort on the part of certain opposition parties to call into question the integrity of the Prime Minister and indeed to raise the spectre of a charge under the criminal code, it in fact had no impact on the result of the election.

The opposition has started to circle in on an issue and obviously the most political one concerns the Prime Minister and a golf course in Shawinigan. The report of the ethics counsellor exonerated the Prime Minister. This is somewhat regrettable if one is a member of an opposition party, but it is a little like calling the system of justice into question because we do not like an individual judge's decision: if we do not get a decision we like, perhaps we should change the forum so that a better decision can be obtained.

I am therefore persuaded that this system does seem to work and I have some confidence that this ethics counsellor is doing a job under conditions that he sees as satisfactory. I have yet to hear the ethics counsellor himself complain that the conditions under which he finds himself working and the person to whom he reports in fact compromise anything he might do. I can recollect no evidence of any comments by this counsellor which indicate that he feels that his work is compromised by the system.

It seems, therefore, that the opposition needs to show that the ethics counsellor is compromised by the process. It needs to give concrete and specific examples which show that the ethics counsellor and the process are compromised. It needs to show that the existing system does not work.

The opposition has demonstrated that the current system of reporting to the Prime Minister on request to a parliamentary committee, and indeed if requested to parliament itself, is a fair and open process whereby members of all sides have access to the decision and the decision making process.

In conclusion, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The system is currently working. I cannot see any compelling reason for the arguments on the part of the opposition.

[Grant Hill, Canadian Alliance, Macleod, AB]

Mr. Speaker, there is one compelling argument for changing the system as it exists. The compelling argument was a document that the member campaigned on in 1993. He knows that he campaigned on the document. He knows that he campaigned on this principle.

We are asking him and his colleagues to keep their word on what they said they would do. It surprises me how they can talk around the issue and say there is no compelling reason to keep their word.

If there has been a change in circumstances I would like to have the member tell me what is that change in circumstances, because a change in circumstances would mean that the promise was null and void. If there is no change in circumstances from 1993 when he campaigned on the red book and this issue, I would ask him to vote for the principle because he campaigned on it. I ask him to tell me how he could do otherwise.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am not that old. For the record I did not campaign in 1993.

Having said that, I want to go through the details of the election promise. It stated that a Liberal government would appoint an independent ethics counsellor. That part was done. The ethics counsellor has been in place since 1994 and has rendered decisions, which possibly the government did not really like.

It stated that the government would advise both public officials and lobbyists in the day to day application of the code of conduct for public officials. The Lobbyists Registration Act has been passed and has been put in place. I am assuming that public officials means the government, the cabinet, the Prime Minister, parliamentary secretaries, and so on. Again, that has been done.

It stated that the ethics counsellor would be appointed after consultation with leaders of the parties. I understand that has been done. Possibly certain members of the opposition did not see that as being a satisfactory form of consultation.

It also stated that he would report directly to parliament. The point of the debate is whether he has to report directly to parliament by statute or whether he has to report directly to parliament through the Prime Minister or through parliamentary committees on request. As I said, I do not see circumstances which compel that to change.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments of the member opposite. I know he thinks in a very technical and reasonable way. He has given the example of a judge in this instance and I want to draw an example to his attention.

Let us take an individual named Jean who is to go before a judge to be judged. Before he goes before the trial judge on allegations he gets to pick and appoint the judge. Then Jean appears before the judge. While Jean is there, he is the only one who gets to present the evidence. Jean presents his case to the judge that he appointed and hired. After the judge has heard Jean's submissions he then retires. After making his decision on the evidence presented by Jean, he then reports back to Jean. He reports back to the person who hired him and then passes judgment.

The hon. member talks about the perception. I know he appreciates the nuance. The public should have confidence in the office of ethics counsellor which in and of itself includes the important distinction of ethics. Would he not agree that the perception here is wrong?

Would he not agree that the in this instance the Prime Minister is being judged by a person he has appointed and who reports only to him? Does the hon. member not see something wrong with the perception here?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member raises an interesting question. My belief is that the answer is in the difference in the quality of the office, between what is a judge and what is an ethics counsellor.

A judge necessarily needs independence in the process. A judge necessarily hears evidence in an open and impartial manner. A judge necessarily gives a judgment which has consequences. However, we are talking about an ethics counsellor. An ethics counsellor gives advice. An ethics counsellor gives counsel. An ethics counsellor gives guidance. There are no sanctions. It is in the area of morality and ethics. It is not in the area of legal precedent.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Mr. Speaker, since this is my first opportunity to rise in the House since you have been elevated to your august position, let me say congratulations and all the very best to you as Deputy Speaker in the months and years ahead.

I rise today to speak against the opposition day motion. As we are all aware, members of the House are proud of our traditions as a parliamentary democracy. A parliamentary democracy means that the Prime Minister and ministers are accountable to parliament. This includes the ethical behaviour of ministers.

As a government we know the importance of ethical behaviour. We have a Prime Minister who is personally responsible for the government's ethical behaviour. We have a record of taking action and we have made sure that a commitment to ethical conduct reaches all levels within the Government of Canada and is part of its everyday ongoing work.

Public service is a trust, and trust in institutions is vital to a democracy. The Prime Minister is personally accountable to Canadians and to the House for the conduct of his ministers and his officials. The Prime Minister's responsibility for the ethics counsellor reflects this.

The ethics counsellor provides reports to parliament on his duties under the Lobbyists Registration Act. To establish a similar reporting on his duty in advising the Prime Minister would undermine the Prime Minister's responsibility for ministerial conduct. At the heart of the Canadian system of government is collective ministerial responsibility. This means that the government is responsible to parliament and it must maintain the confidence of the House in order to govern. Collective responsibility requires cabinet confidentiality.

Initiatives to strengthen integrity and transparency in government include more opportunity for policy debates in the House, changes to the pension plan for MPs to end double dipping, a conflict of interest code available to the public, a strengthened Lobbyists Registration Act, and the possibility for the auditor general to report to parliament up to four times a year.

We on this side of the House oppose the Canadian Alliance opposition day motion on the ethics counsellor. The opposition day motion suggests that the government is not accountable to parliament for its ethic's policies and behaviour. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our government is accountable to parliament. Parliament considered and passed the Lobbyists Registration Act. The auditor general can now report to parliament up to four times a year.

A strengthened code of conduct for public officeholders has been tabled in parliament and the Prime Minister and ministers continue to be accountable to parliament for their policies and ethical behaviour.

An independent ethics counsellor has been established to advise the Prime Minister on ministerial ethical issues. The ethics counsellor is independent and reports to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister reports to parliament. The opposition was consulted on the selection of the ethics counsellor. The ethics counsellor reports to parliament on his duties under the Lobbyists Registration Act. The ethics counsellor can be asked to appear before parliamentary committees and in fact has done so. As we have heard from my colleague, the hon. member from Scarborough East, not only has he appeared, but if necessary, he is a compellable witness before parliamentary committees.

In other words, not only have our actions reflected the spirit of our red book commitments on ethics and integrity, we have exceeded those commitments. Our position is that we are implementing our red book commitments and that is why we are voting against the opposition day motion.

[James Moore, Canadian Alliance, Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my first question to the minister has to do with the ethics counsellor. When an ethical blunder that may be worthy of rebuke is reported to the Prime Minister why are the criteria not released to the public?

Second, the minister made constant reference to ethics, policies, great behaviour and integrity. She said that the government has exceeded those expectations. I am curious to know what steps have been taken to rebuke the unethical comments made by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration during the election campaign?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, in relation to the hon. member's last unfortunate and gratuitous comment, it is most inappropriate for him to bring those comments into a debate that was begun today by the opposition in relation to the role of the ethics counsellor.

I would suggest that red herrings, such as the one he just raised, are inappropriate if we are to take the debate in relation to the ethics counsellor seriously.

The hon. member's first question was—

[An hon. member]

What about Debbie's pension?

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I just want to remind members on both sides of the House to please make their interventions to one another through the Chair.

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I have here the conflict of interest code for public officeholders. In fact, it is a public document. It clearly outlines the principles of the code of conduct. It begins with objects, principles, the interpretation thereof, the duties of the ethics counsellor and compliance arrangements. It is a very detailed outline in terms of what any one of us has to do in relation to our assets and our liabilities, gifts, hospitality and other benefits. It lists failure to comply, failure to agree and consequences thereof, compliance measures.

I cannot imagine what more information the member would need than this. The information is available. All he has to do is take it off the net.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish the minister had the grace to admit what the Bloc Quebecois and its leader pointed out during the election campaign, which is that we all stand to gain from a process in which the ethics counsellor is selected, appointed and recognized by parliament.

I think that all the opposition parties would support rapid action in this direction. There would be no doubt as to the integrity, legitimacy and relevance of the duties of a bona fide ethics counsellor.

Will the minister admit, as a parliamentarian, that this kind of appointment must be the prerogative and the responsibility of all parliamentarians and not just of the Prime Minister, who uses it for partisan ends?

[Anne McLellan, Liberal, Edmonton West, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I fundamentally disagree with the premise of the hon. member's question.

In fact, as I have already indicated, the ethics counsellor is appointed by the Prime Minister after a process of consultation with leaders of the opposition parties. For the hon. member to suggest that there is anything dishonest or dishonourable, either in relation to this particular ethics counsellor or this office of the ethics counsellor, is certainly unbecoming.

I have already indicated that our system is one of parliamentary democracy and accountability. The Prime Minister is accountable to the House. He is accountable to the Parliament of Canada. Therefore, to suggest that somehow in the appointment of the ethics counsellor we are in any way treating the House lightly is a mischaracterization of the situation.

Unlike in most functioning democracies, the Prime Minister comes here virtually every day and is accountable to everyone in the House for everything he does, including the appointment of the ethics counsellor.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Given the importance of the issue and given the presence of the justice minister, who is without a doubt the highest ranking lawyer in the country, I wonder if we could have unanimous consent of the House to continue the question and answer period with her for another 10 minutes.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.