Debates of March 1st, 2001

Supply

[Carolyn Parrish, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I find it quite fascinating that everything done on this side of the House is subject to severe scrutiny and question, but that there is absolutely no concern in the opposition members' minds about, first of all, the contract we cancelled being absolutely the best contract available to the Canadian public. Second, the fact that all the helicopters are still flying and our defence system is still working quite nicely means that it was probably in advance of when it was needed. The fact is that we are being careful, meticulous and doing the best job possible.

I might also point out to the member opposite that the public, to use her word, toasted the government that was going to bring the contract into place precipitously and that party was reduced to a paltry sum of people over there who are spending an entire day wasting the taxpayers' time on a subject that is well underway.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, my constituency has no obvious interest in this issue. We do not have a military base. We do not have defence contracts. We do not have any airports or harbours. Quite easily I can say with some confidence that my constituency has no particular involvement in this particular issue. Therefore, while I may comment on this without any obvious axe to grind, it does not mean that my constituents are uninterested. I am perfectly happy at this point to defer my remarks until the House leader speaks on his issue.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would like to try again to seek unanimous consent of the House to revert, only momentarily, to introduction of government bills, and only for the purpose of introducing a bill on behalf of the Minister of Transport, namely, an act respecting shipping and navigation and to amend the Shipping Conferences Exemption Act, 1987 and other acts.

We would rather do it today than tomorrow morning, the reason being that members who are going home tonight can leave and take a copy of the bill with them. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you could seek consent of the House and I could introduce the bill.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

Canada Shipping Act, 2001

[Don Boudria, Liberal, for the Minister of Transport]

moved for leave to introduce Bill C-14, an act respecting shipping and navigation and to amend the Shipping Conferences Exemption Act, 1987 and other acts.

(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)

The House resumed consideration of the motion and of the amendment.

Supply

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, while my constituency has no obvious axe to grind and no particular involvement in this particular issue, it does not mean that my constituents are therefore uninterested.

During the last election, I heard from my constituents on many occasions about their concern over the state of the military. They were concerned that the military was not being treated well and that their equipment was out of date.

Therein lies the debate. Canadians want a military of which they can be proud, but the costs are somewhere in the area of problematic. For instance, the costs of the modernization of the F-18 are astronomic. The costs of the quality of life for members of the military are substantial. The costs of the Aurora upgrades are enormous. The costs of this helicopter project alone are projected to be $2.5 billion.

The part of the motion with which my constituents can agree is that the procurement be conducted on the basis of the best value to Canadian taxpayers.

The above issues that I have just cited, those four outstanding issues, the Auroras, the F-18s, the helicopters and the quality of life of the military, and there are more, are significant issues for all of us, both in the military and outside the military.

I assume that members opposite think that the best value for the Canadian taxpayer is the guideline to be applied to all of the above. I do not know what the total costs of all those files might be, but I think it is safe to assume that we would use up whatever surplus is in the budget this year. We would probably also get into the contingency fees, if not the prudence factor, and we might actually start dipping into tax cuts and the Canada health and social transfer. The costs of these projects are enormous and, in my analysis, one needs to bring balance and best value to the taxpayers, whether it be in helicopters or any other request by the military.

Having said that the costs are enormous, we cannot be paralyzed. The military has in fact set out its priorities in its requests. Apparently the opposition was upset when the letter of interest proposed that there could be a possibility of splitting the contracts between the airframe and other systems. This is similar to what General Motors does when it splits its main suppliers into those that can deliver various sections of an automobile most quickly and efficiently and, indeed I say, cheaply.

Some potential bidders apparently do not like the idea that efficiency and costs are to be part of the bid. The opposition apparently agrees that costs and efficiency should not be a barrier to a bid. The opposition and other bidders apparently do not like the qualification process to submit a bid. The government has legitimate concerns that those submitting bids should also be qualified to submit the bids. What a strange idea.

When the military suggested a qualifying process be given time, those companies that were already qualified were upset because of the potential increased competition. It does seem rather fundamental that this so-called barrier be addressed. After all, what is the use of having a bid from someone not qualified to submit a bid in the first place? Indeed, what could be generated from soliciting more bids from people who in fact are not qualified?

I am sure that when General Motors solicits bids it checks out its bidders rather thoroughly before giving out a contract. Surely it is fundamental that those who submit bids be qualified. I hope that the opposition would not encourage bidders who are not qualified.

The next phrase in the motion is that it be fair and open. I have listened to members opposite argue for a fair and open process. Who would be against fairness and openness? Yet when members opposite are challenged on what is not fair and what is not open, they lapse into some rope-a-dope response about political interference. However, they are not very specific. Their rope-a-dope response would do credit to Muhammad Ali.

Members opposite lapse into generalities when asked specifically about what is not fair, what is not transparent and just where this political interference might lay. Apparently the continuous posting of this issue on the website is not open, is not transparent and is subject to political interference.

The Department of National Defence has issued a letter of interest regarding a $2.5 billion contract for the purchase of 28 helicopters. Some companies in the aerospace industry, namely E.H. Industries and Sikorsky, questioned aspects of the bidding process. E.H. Industries in fact took legal action against the department before the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. The claim made to the CITT was that the contract bidding process was unnecessarily strict, thus eliminating competition. The CITT did not accept the proposition.

I have trouble understanding the opposition's argument. Is it arguing in favour of fewer competitors, which would therefore advantage a smaller pool of bidders, or is it arguing for a large pool of bidders, some of whom may not be qualified to bid?

I understand a disgruntled bidder who likes the process set up in a particular way which maximizes his or her advantage, and launches a lawsuit to protect his or her advantages. However, what I cannot understand is an opposition supporting a bidder who only likes things one way which would maximize the advantage of that particular corporation, thank you very much.

It seems to me that the opposition is speaking against its own motion, the essence of which is fairness, transparency and best value for the Canadian taxpayer. To use the words of that famous philosopher, Yogi Berra, this appears to be déja vu all over again. The opposition is apparently against any initiative that would open up the pool of qualified bidders.

It has been eight years since the Canadian electorate passed judgment on the Mulroney government and yet here we are, three elections later, the Tories are up from two seats to 12, and apparently arguing against transparency and a bidding process designed to solicit the greatest number of bidders. It is like we are stuck in a time warp. Is this not the same crowd that brought us the $42 billion deficit and forced the newly elected Liberal government to take huge sums out of all programs, including military programs, in order to get the nation's finances in order? Why would the military, let alone other Canadians, believe in a motion from a party that has caused so much grief for the military?

Had we not had to climb our way out of a $42 billion deficit, maybe, just maybe, the helicopter issue would be off the table and we would put it behind us. From the $4 billion Tory contract, we would be down to the $2.5 billion Liberal contract.

This is a disingenuous motion from a party that dug the Canadian government and the Canadian people a huge hole. It now wants to fly out of that hole with economic voodoo and prioritizing that is inappropriate in the first place. It is a shame that this motion is not votable.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member spoke of a $42 billion deficit in 1993. What he failed to mention was that that deficit, as a percentage of GDP, was actually reduced by half from what the Mulroney government had inherited in 1984 from the previous Liberal government. In fact it was reduced by half as a percentage of GDP.

He also forgot to mention that program spending, which was growing every year by 15% under that previous Liberal government, was reduced to zero under the Mulroney government. He also made some other omissions.

The Economist magazine's 1998 year preview for Canada stated that the credit for the elimination of the deficit in Canada belonged to the structural reforms made by the previous government, that is, the Mulroney government, and it listed specifically free trade and GST as being those policies that were most instrumental in the elimination of the deficit.

I would like to ask him if he is aware of what his party's position was on free trade and the GST in the 1988 and 1993 elections. I am curious as to where his party stood, prior to being elected, on those two fundamental policies which his party and government has embraced and utilized.

I would certainly hope that his party was not, as some people have told me, vociferously opposed to those policies. Surely to goodness his party would not have embraced those policies so warmly in government that it opposed so vociferously in opposition. That would mean that it effectively had to swallow itself whole on this and many other issues. I would really appreciate his feedback on that.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I do know that the Canadian people have embraced this government three times. That, in and of itself, is a rather remarkable concept. I do know that the party opposite has not been so enthusiastically embraced. A reduction of a majority government to two seats is somewhat like a kiss from a sister.

I do know that between 1984 and 1993 we had some of the best economic times that the country has ever enjoyed. The party of the member opposite did nothing during that time and did nothing to wrestle the deficit that it was continuing to run into the ground. The Canadian people have passed judgment on that and apparently they prefer the programs that this government has over the proposals of the fifth party.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I listened intently to the member's speech and it sounded just like the previous speech by one of his colleagues, the member from Mississauga.

He had the same basic comments in there, nothing new, nothing innovative, nothing to support the project itself. It seems that the speech writer over there has the same mindset that leads to absolutely nowhere.

The Liberals have been mostly patting themselves on the back and proclaiming this great open process that they want to deliver to the Canadian public and to industry.

Let us talk about this openness that the member has alluded to in his presentation. As I pointed out before, I have a book full of access to information documents on this particular project which clearly point to interference by the Deputy Prime Minister in this process. He wanted the statement of requirements changed so some changes were made through the senior oversight management committee. The committee met seven times to deal strictly with the SOR on the maritime helicopter. That is politicians interfering directly into the affairs of the military. They had no business being in the procurement process and yet it did happen. Now, that was the Deputy Prime Minister, those officials—

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. I know that it is not much time when colleagues choose, as they may, to split their time, but with questions and comments being only five minutes we are running short of time. I encourage the member for Calgary Northeast to possibly direct his question to his colleague opposite.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I will do that very thing.

The member talks about this wonderful open process that the Liberal government has embarked upon. Documents show exactly the opposite. They show that there was political interference.

I would like the member to comment on just where he thinks this project will go, given the past track record of his government and its nasty interference into every procurement that it can put its finger in.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough East, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I question whether the hon. member listened intently. Had he done so, he might have noticed a substantial difference between the previous speaker and my own speech. That being as it may, the hon. member seems somewhat contradictory. On the one hand he wants us to be accountable and on the other hand he does not want us to consult industry because he believes we should have bids from unqualified groups.

Accountability in my view means the government gets involved in designing the letter of intent. It designs the basic parameters of any bid upon any contract at any time. It is there on the website and I cannot imagine why the hon. member is upset with the process. It is as open as open can be.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have been following the debate throughout the day very closely. A number of speakers have risen and most people recognize that we need new helicopters for the Canadian military. That has been stated over and over again even from the government side.

My difficulty with what I have been hearing from the government benches is the total cost. There has been a serious contradiction in the total cost of the helicopter procurement. There has been a contradiction in the Liberal numbers. Every time they put a speaker up I hear different numbers. I quoted them once before when I asked a question, but for the record and in my speech I will quote the numbers again.

These are government numbers. They are not my numbers or fictitious numbers that we pulled out of a hat or out of the air. They are the government's numbers. The EH-101 cancellation fees are based on the numbers constantly cited by the government and in the press.

We have stated them at $478 million. The government's own numbers are $500 million. It has been reported in the press at $786 million. It is probably closer to $1 billion. That is what it actually cost the government to cancel a helicopter contract for the EH-101s.

We can take the government's more modest figure of $500 million, which is a little more than what we have been tracking them at. Then we can put the Sea King maintenance and upgrade to the year 2008 at $600 million, and those are government numbers again. Then we can add in the Canada search helicopter program, which has already purchased 15 helicopters for $790 million. We also can add in the Canada search helicopter's long term service support for 25 years, which again is part of the real numbers. The real numbers add up to $1.7 billion.

If we add the maritime helicopter project for an additional 28 helicopters at $2.9 billion, and the maritime helicopter project long term service support for 25 years at $1.7 billion, the total cost for the Liberal program, without inflation, is $8.2 billion.

Where is it getting the $4 billion figure? It is smoke and mirrors. This is the real world. Those are your numbers. Stand in the House and defend them, or contradict them again, but go down the list. Everything that—

[The Deputy Speaker]

I know the member feels very passionate about the subject on hand, but I would ask him to direct his remarks through the Chair.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, your direction is noted. Certainly I meant to address my remarks through the Chair and got carried away with the subject matter.

The governments own numbers show that the cost of helicopter procurement will be $8.2 billion. The total cost for the 43 EH-101s, based again on the government's own numbers from the 1993 election, was $5.8 billion. We can be assured that it did not miss anything, that it added in every penny, dime and dollar it could. There is a contradiction of $2.4 billion. Somehow or another the government must come up with the numbers. It cannot stand there and say its program is cheaper.

I have a personal interest in the helicopter bid and in search and rescue helicopters. It was not many years ago, on February 15, 1982, that the Ocean Ranger sank off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland losing 84 personnel on board. There were 90 knot winds and 37 foot seas, average seas. I was working on a rig off Sable Island at the same time with a 70 foot air gap and the waves were hitting the bottom of the rig.

That is why we need search and rescue helicopters. That is why we need defence helicopters that are fit to fly. People who are put in the air in dangerous circumstances must be able to depend on the machinery to deliver them to their target in a rescue mission, a military mission, a humanitarian mission or whatever it may be.

The government has forgotten that early in the morning of February 15, 1982, when 84 Ocean Ranger personnel were lost, many of them jumped overboard and were in the water when the choppers got there. Anyone reading the write-up on that disaster would be well aware that the men were dead when the choppers arrived because it was at the extreme limit of the helicopters' range. They a hold of some of the bodies but could not pull them out of the water.

When we talk about helicopters on the east coast, we are not talking about some type of expense. What is human life worth to the government? What is human life worth to the friends, families and loved ones of people who have been lost offshore in the past or unfortunately may be lost in the future? It is not worth debate in the House or discussions over dollars. I do not care if they are millions of dollars. We need helicopters. We do not need them in 2008. We needed them yesterday.

It is absolutely scandalous to debate the issue in this place at this time with a government that cancelled a perfectly good contract for 43 helicopters because the Prime Minister found himself in a position where he had stated publicly that he would take his pen and write zero helicopters.

Because the Prime Minister made a mistake and was not able to admit to it, and because his government and colleagues of the day would not force him to change his opinion, we are in a situation today where we cannot carry out search and rescue activities at any time on the east coast, west coast or in the high arctic.

Thank goodness we have helicopter crews and mechanics who are absolute geniuses at keeping old helicopters airborne. Otherwise we would be the laughingstock not only of NATO, not only of our own country but of the entire planet.

I will relate an incident that happened in one of our NATO exercises. If it were not such a sad thing it would be funny. We had a chopper sitting on the deck of an American frigate, as was typical. Our pilots were standing on the deck when an American pilot came along. One of the American pilots came over and asked, in a typical southern accent, “You-all belong to that helicopter?” The Canadian pilot said “Yeah, that is our chopper”. The American pilot looked at him and said “Well, you know, it's smokin”. He was appalled. There was smoke coming off the helicopter. There was smoke coming from the engine housing. They could not believe it.

That would not happen in the United States. The Americans fly better hardware and have better gear because they have at least some respect for their military forces. They put them in danger but they put them in danger with first class equipment, proper backup and some consideration that they might be dependent upon those soldiers, those men and women, at some future time in the history of the country.

I worked offshore on the east coast from 1980 and 1988. I went through two rig abandonments during that period. We ended up staying on the rig. We were safe. There was a good chopper sitting on the deck and we could have abandoned the rig at any time.

I saw the abandonment of the Euro Princess, a Yugoslavian freighter which had run aground off Sable Island. Sixteen Yugoslav sailors were taken off the Euro Princess in 50 knot winds and 30 foot seas. It was a very daring rescue mission carried out under very difficult circumstances. There was a very narrow window of time to get to the freighter because it had lost power, no lights were working, it was in total darkness and it was the middle of the night.

Our search and rescue people were able to rescue the sailors and take them to Sable Island. The boat was 650 feet long and was stuck on the bar around Sable Island. The worry was that it would be swept free by a big wave and take the legs out from underneath the Rowan Juneau, the rig I was working on at the time.

The rig was abandoned except for 12 of us who kept the pump circulating to prevent being stuck in the hole. The point is that we would not be able to carry out that rescue mission today.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. With respect, I do not see how the discussion is relevant to the motion before the House.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I think the member was making the case to get to that point of relevance. In the next two minutes I am sure he will get to it, as we get ever closer to 5.30 p.m.

[Gerald Keddy, Progressive Conservative, South Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I will be cautious in how I say this, but the relevant point is very simple. We need helicopters for search and rescue. I understand as much as anyone in the House that the helicopters are on order. We need helicopters for our military personnel. We need first class equipment because we have first class pilots, men and women who operate the machines and who service them.

To suggest that on the high seas, on the east or west coast of Canada or in the high arctic, human lives are not important is a scandalous admission by the government, but it does not surprise me at all. It is typical of what we have been hearing during the debate and what we have seen from the opposition.

I quoted a lot of numbers previously and, quite frankly, we get lost in the numbers. I will make a comment to the intervention here again. We are not talking about numbers here, we are talking about human lives. We are talking about how we can carry out an offshore rescue, how we can find hunters who are lost, how we can get people out of the high arctic and how we can medivac people in dangerous circumstances.

Only a few minutes ago a member spoke about the fact that we just had a major tremor on the west coast of Canada.

The government is lucky, that is all, that the tremor was 46 miles underground instead of 16 or 17 miles underground. We would not only have highways shut down in B.C., we would have buildings collapse and we would have major fiascos. In order to respond to that, we absolutely have to have the military up to strength and we have to have rescue vehicles. Helicopters are the only rescue vehicle that can be used in those circumstances.

[The Speaker]

It being 5.30 p.m., it is my duty to inform the House that proceedings on the motion have expired.

The House will now proceed to the consideration of Private Members' Business as listed on today's order paper.

Emancipation Day

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

moved

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should proclaim August 1 of each year Emancipation Day in recognition of the heritage and contributions of Canada's black community.

Mr. Speaker, it is an honour for me to rise this afternoon on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to speak on Motion No. 242, a motion proclaiming emancipation day. The text of the motion reads as follows:

That, in the opinion of the House, the government should proclaim August 1 of each (and every) year Emancipation Day in recognition of the heritage and contributions of Canada's black community.

Before I begin my comments on the motion, I would like to say that I have been a member of the House since 1997. This is the first time I have been able to bring forward one of my private member's initiatives for debate. I quite frankly wondered if I would ever get a chance.

How private members' business is conducted in the House is a strong reflection of the muzzle placed on opposition members and government backbenchers by the government. There are some tremendous ideas generated from members of parliament that are being ignored or discounted because of the limited time and resources given to private members' bills and motions.

In the case of the motion before us today, it has been deemed a non-votable item, meaning that after today's one hour debate, the motion will disappear. All the time, energy and thought that went into drafting the motion will simply disappear.

It is a shame that there is so little time for initiatives such as these. The government could lengthen the time given to private members' business each week. The government could allow one bill and one motion from each opposition and backbench MPs to be votable per session. Changes like this could have a tremendous impact on this place, but then the government chooses not to act.

Having said that, I will now begin my comments on Motion No. 242.

Slavery in the British Commonwealth ended on August 1, 1834, a day that is celebrated in several countries and Canadian cities as emancipation day. This occurred a full 30 years before the United States abolished slavery with Lincoln's emancipation act.

Spearheading the initiative was a member of parliament from the British house of commons. William Wilberforce introduced a bill to stop the importation of slaves into the British colonies. It was he who raised the voice of conscience. He impressed upon his peers the horrors of slavery and stressed that this barbaric practice went against the teachings of Christianity and other religions.

His heroic efforts have come to be recognized the world over and influenced the great American emancipator, Abraham Lincoln. In fact, Mr. Wilberforce's bill was the first international human rights legislation.

The bill called for the freedom of all people. It was the beginning of the global eradication of slavery. People tended to identify black slavery primarily with the United States. To a much lesser degree, slavery was practised in Upper and Lower Canada in the 18th and early 19th centuries.

It is worth noting that in the 1790s, several members of Upper Canada's legislative council and legislative assembly were slave owners. At the same time, prominent individuals in both Upper and Lower Canada were opposed to slavery. Individuals such as Lieutenant Governor John Simcoe, Chief Justice William Osgoode and Joseph Papineau were harsh critics of this barbaric practice.

Emancipation Day is recognized in several countries and in both the cities of Ottawa and Toronto.

I grew up in Tanzania. She is a country that has lost many of its sons and daughters to slavery.

There is a little city on the coast called Bagamayo where we can still see the ruins of structures in which slaves were held before they were shipped to the Americas. Standing there, tears come to people's eyes as they think of the suffering people endured and the number of families that were torn apart.

Two years ago I had the honour of going with the Governor General to Senegal. On the islands we saw where slaves were taken out. Believe me, it was not a pretty sight that any human being can be proud of.

Since 1834 Canada has played a vital role to thousands of those whose basic human dignity was denied. We can take great pride in the fact that the final destination of the underground railroad was Canada.

This is a non-partisan initiative that I hoped would garner unanimous support in the House of Commons. As Canadians, we should not only acknowledge past injustices but we must celebrate courage, compassion and conviction. We, as parliamentarians, should feel a sense of pride that our system took a moral stand on the issue of slavery.

The motion's only mandate is to recognize those people in the world who were the first to recognize emancipation for what it is and the hope it held for the millions of people who call themselves Canadians today.

Canadians listening to this debate today will know that February was a Black History Month. Across the country Canadians of African descent celebrated and reflected upon their rich and diverse heritage.

On February 22, on Parliament Hill, the Mathieu Da Costa Awards ceremony highlighted students from across the country who explored the contributions of Canadians of diverse ethnic and racial backgrounds.

I met with the members of the Ontario Black History Society who have been at the forefront of celebrations of black history for more than 20 years. Through dedication and commitment, they continue to spread the history of black Canadians and their incredible achievements like: the great black Alberta cowboy Mr. John Ware whose log cabin still stands in the Dinosaur Provincial Park; Mathieu Da Costa who, in 1605, was thought to be the first person of African descent to set foot on Canadian soil; and Mr. Anderson Ruffin Abbot, the first black Canadian doctor.

I could go on and on about the past and ongoing accomplishments and contributions of Canada's black community. Suffice it to say Canada is a better country and a better place today because of the contributions of black Canadians.

The motion I am speaking to today is not only about celebrating these accomplishments but acknowledging past injustices and the moral conviction of Canadians who took a stand against slavery.

I would like to end my comments with a poem published in a Negro paper called, “The Voice of The Fugitive”, in January 1851.

I'm on my way to Canada, that cold and dreary land The dire effects of slavery I can no longer stand My soul is mixed within me so, to think that I'm a slave I'm now resolved to strike the blow for freedom or the grave O Righteous Father, will Thou not pity me And aid me on to Canada, where coloured men are free.

I heard old Queen Victoria say if we could all forsake Our native land of slavery and come across the lake That she was standing on the shore with arms extended wide To give us all a peaceful home beyond the rolling tide. Farewell, old master, this is enough for me I'm going straight to Canada, where coloured men are free.

I would ask for unanimous consent of the members to make this motion votable.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The hon. member is seeking unanimous consent that the motion be made votable. Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

No.