Debates of March 1st, 2001

Supply

[John Duncan, Canadian Alliance, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I think the deduction the member is making is the natural deduction to make.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, the last time the member for Saint John brought forward a procurement issue like this, the member for Calgary Northeast, the critic, jumped right on the bandwagon and away he went. As it turned out, the Canadian International Trade Tribunal noted that in fact they were both wrong.

Here we have another example of the reformed Alliance blindly following the Tories in this case.

The point I want to make is this: why is it that the reformed Alliance in 1993, in 1995 and again in 1997, wanted to cut defence but finally, in the last election, talked about $2 billion? We have already done $2.3 billion.

Why are they Johnny-come-latelies on this important issue? Why do they call Atlantic Canada—

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Would the hon. member for Vancouver Island North provide a short answer?

[John Duncan, Canadian Alliance, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I would be delighted to take a very few seconds. The member is very consistent in the kinds of questions he asks. They are generally not worth responding to, so I will not.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, as is my custom and as this is my first speech since parliament reconvened, I want to thank the constituents of Saint-Jean, who have put their trust in me for a third time. I am very pleased to represent them in this House.

Since I have 20 minutes to speak this morning, I will give the House some incredible examples of injustice in my riding of Saint-Jean, particularly where national defence is concerned.

There are several issues underlying today's debate. People talk of transparency, but what has become transparent to me is that there has been political interference in the issue now before the House.

Let us not forget about Canadian content, because it is always the same Canadian and Quebec taxpayers who have to foot the bill. I think it is important to raise the issue of Canadian content in this debate. Let me give as an example something that happened in the riding of Saint-Jean.

I had the opportunity recently to tour, with the Minister of National Defence, Canadian military facilities in Eritrea. We heard nothing but praises for the new armoured vehicle, the LAV III.

I remember asking the Minister of National Defence, here in this House, why that contract was given to GM, in Ontario. In my riding of Saint-Jean, Oerlikon had the expertise to carry out the turret part of the contract. I wanted to know why the turret part of the LAV III contract was not given to Oerlikon, in Saint-Jean. The minister skirted around the issue but did not answer the question. My goal was to create more jobs in the riding of Saint-Jean, in Quebec, which is still part of Canada.

In the end, the armoured vehicle was built by GM, in Ontario, and the turret, by Devco, in California. What I said was “It does not make any sense. The taxpayers of Canada and of Quebec are paying for this, and our money is being used to create jobs elsewhere”.

We are talking about something very similar here today. I will show, as my colleagues have done, that the process before us is not completely transparent and that some companies are at an advantage while others are at a disadvantage. This is bad in the context of Canadian content.

Let me give a brief outline of the whole story. It all began at the end of the Mulroney government. I clearly remember that. There was an election campaign and the government wanted to buy the Cadillac of helicopters, some fifty of them, at a cost of $5.8 billion.

I also remember that the then leader of the opposition, who is now the Prime Minister, kept repeating “We are going to cancel this contract”. To the point where people later described it as a farfetched election promise. The Liberals had promised all sorts of things, so they had to at least fulfil some of their promises. And they fulfilled that one.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

It is like the GST.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, just like they were going to eliminate the GST. But they did not fulfil that one.

No sooner had the Prime Minister been sworn in than he met his cabinet and cancelled the EH-101 contract. Of course, there are costs involved in the cancellation of a contract that has already been signed. That decision cost $500 million to Canadian taxpayers. But nothing had been solved. The Sea King helicopters were built in the sixties.

As the new critic on national defence issues, I am sometimes told “Mr. Bachand, we want to take you for a helicopter ride”. I am always careful to ask “In which one?” Because, even though I am a rather brave man, I am very reluctant to fly in Sea King and Labrador helicopters.

So one contract was cancelled, at a cost of $500 million. We have helicopters dating back to the 1960s and time marches on and they have still not been replaced. A few years later, in 1998, the government said “It is really too dangerous and it is costing us too much in upkeep. Let's buy 15 Cormorants”. This was a $790 million contract, at $60 million each.

Cormorant EH consists of companies with consortiums here. Consortiums are often involved. This one includes Bombardier, Canadian Helicopter Corporation and Bristol. I would remind the House that these are three Canadian companies, one of which, Bombardier—and this is important for us—is in Quebec and has extensive aeronautics expertise.

We therefore bought it. The Prime Minister met with the President of France once or twice. Since I was not there, naturally I am unable to comment on what was said between the President of France and our Prime Minister. Suddenly, however, the winds shifted towards Eurocopter, a consortium with a large French component.

Nonetheless, we were committed to the 15 Cormorants which we bought and which we will have delivered. Rather than say “Keep this expertise and go for some continuity” the government is saying “How can we get out of this now?” This is where the letter of interest comes in. The government sets out specifications.

His first specification: “We have bought 15 helicopters, and we will now buy 28 more for maritime patrol and to replace the Sea King fleet. Here is what we want from the companies. We outline the requirements and tell them we do not want to spend more than $925 million for 28 helicopters”. I remind the House that we just bought 15 Cormorants at $60 million apiece. But now, we want to get 28 more for $925 million. That is about $33 million apiece.

We know very well that EH will probably be excluded. We do not want to spend more than $925 million, and we are also saying that the contract will go to the lowest bidder. It means that, for a $1 difference between Eurocopter and EH, a Canadian consortium of which Bombardier is a partner, the contract will go to Eurocopter. We should also consider that EH is proposing an helicopter which is often compared to a Cadillac, the top of the line. But, for a $1 difference, we would rather buy a Lada.

That is what the letter of interest means. In other words, we can buy from Eurocopter an helicopter with the technology of the 1970s. Scandinavians have just refused to buy their helicopters for maritime patrol from Eurocopter because they consider this aircraft not to be safe in Scandinavian weather. I remind you that our own weather is quite similar. Weather conditions here and in Scandinavia are rather similar.

We will settle for a Lada, when we could have a Cadillac for $100 more. That is a problem. Besides, there will be no Canadian content at all. The work will be done elsewhere. The government will use $925 million provided by Quebec and Canadian taxpayers to have helicopters built elsewhere. It seems to me that it should be a government policy to have some Canadian content.

The decision in the letter of interest that I mentioned will benefit some companies and penalize others. Certification involves many technical details and there are companies that will not be able to get that certification.

There is something else with regard to the best possible price. This contradicts Treasury Board guidelines. Treasury Board does not say the best price, but the best value. To get the best value, it may be better to spend a few extra millions and have helicopters that will be safe for our pilots and our military personnel.

These helicopters will be used for surveillance and, sometimes, for search and rescue operations. It is important to have some flexibility and not say “The lowest bidder will be awarded the contract”, knowing that Eurocopter will most likely be selected. People are not interested in a technology that dates back to the seventies, but this is what we will have.

We will have another problem in ten or fifteen years. We will very quickly have maintenance problems with that. It seems to me that the Lada's reputation is not as good as the Cadillac's. It seems to me that, when we buy a Lada, we are back at the garage sooner for engine or body repairs. The same thing is going to happen with these helicopters, except that we are talking about $925 million.

In addition, another argument in support of awarding the contract to EH is that we already have the expertise. We already have of 15 EHs, the version we call the Chevrolet, as compared to the Cadillac version the Progressive Conservative Party wanted to buy in 1993.

There are some questionable decisions in all this. It is hard to accept that we can exclude Canadian content like that so readily. Bell Helicopter could even undertake to do the assembly if EH were chosen. Companies such as CRL Technologies are prepared to do the emergency lighting system for these helicopters. All these people are going to be brushed aside. We are talking about the possible creation of some 250 to 300 jobs in Quebec with this contract.

This is not what the government has decided to do, though. It has decided to go elsewhere. It has decided to award a contract in Europe, without Canadian content. We the taxpayers of Quebec and Canada will simply be left with the bill.

It seems to me that I heard my Liberal colleagues talking about transparency a while ago. The political meddling is transparently obvious to me. Eurocopter was very upset at losing the last contract for the 15 Cormorants. The Prime Minister met with the President of France. They agreed to say “We will try to do something for you”. They are unable to say what this “something for you” is and to give the contract to Eurocopter directly.

With the letter of interest before us, it amounts to the same thing. The government is making life impossible for EH and other companies. It is making it easy for Eurocopter. That company will probably win the contract.

For us in the Bloc Quebecois, the political meddling in the process is transparently obvious. What is more, Canadian content has been totally ignored. It is important for us to have this sort of debate. Military procurement involves the purchase of huge amounts of materiel. We should pay much more attention to seeing that our taxes are having positive benefits here at home.

The Bloc Quebecois will therefore be very happy to support the motion by the Progressive Conservative Party member. We agree with them, and I think that the opposition members we heard this morning agree with us as well. There has obviously been political interference, and the government is completely dropping Canadian content.

I hope that the government is going to learn something from this discussion. Today, it is perhaps not too late to launch another kind of call for tender which would truly benefit not just one company which the government has its eye on, but everyone. The government should use the Treasury Board directives on best value, rather than seeking the lowest price, and it should try to require Canadian content. I think that then it would be a responsible government.

Unfortunately I have the impression that this will not be possible. I think that today's debate should not be in vain. It is not too late to do something. We are a bit discouraged when we look at how this situation arose and see the government's attitude and how it said no. Cancelling this contract cost a lot of money and now the government is coming back with another contract which has no Canadian content and where the helicopters will be manufactured outside Canada.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Madam Speaker, I believe the member is not familiar with the ongoing process. Opposition members in their speeches have been complaining that the procurement strategy discriminates against potential bidders, namely EH Industries.

Let me remind members that EH Industries did appeal or make a complaint to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. That proceeding took place. It rejected the appeal on the EH-101.

Having said that, I want to state categorically that we do not discriminate against any bidders. In fact, members will know that EH Industries won the contract for the search and rescue helicopters following a fair, open and transparent competition. It is more than welcome, and I suspect it will be bidding on this one.

The purpose of the letter of interest is to inform the industry at large of a potential project. It identifies to the industry the objectives of the project. It is laid out in detail and on the DND website, which has requested that Public Works and Government Services Canada conduct the procurement process.

The member does not seem to be aware of this, but there is a prequalification process. Once the letter of interest goes out and the industry has a dialogue with public works based on the procurement strategy, this process, which will be conducted ahead of the final bid solicitations, will make key technical requirements available to all bidders as early as possible and aid in receiving technical compliance of candidate helicopters' mission systems. This will serve to shorten the overall competition and procurement time and mitigate risks to Canada and the bidders that a formal bid might be found technically non-compliant.

It is not a matter of simply putting out a different tender. It is not a matter that there is political interference. The fact is that it is a public, open and transparent process carrying on a dialogue with the industry, preclearing to ensure that there are technically compliant proposals and then requesting bids. The member has it all wrong. I think the member should understand that the process now is fair, open and transparent.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Madam Speaker, at the risk of annoying my colleague a bit more, I repeat that what is transparent is the fact that there was political interference, as clearly demonstrated by the whole process. This shows that the government wants to exclude companies, and I think that EH is one of them. The company benefiting from the situation is Eurocopter. I have here the letter of interest and this is what it says:

For the purpose of the evaluation, the lowest priced compliant proposal will include the price of the BV—

Therefore it is obvious that we are talking about the lowest bid.

I would like to teach the hon. member some mathematics. The Progressive Conservative Party wanted to purchase 50 helicopters, at a total cost of $5.8 billion, or $100 million per unit. The Liberal government decided to cancel this contract and, in 1995, to buy 15 helicopters at a total cost of $790 million, or $60 million per unit.

This is why we talk about the Cadillac version of 1993 and the Chevrolet version of 1998. Today, I am talking about the Lada version. This is the version we will be getting, because the EH model cannot be built to the contract specifications, that is 28 helicopters for $925 million, which would represent a cost of $50 million per helicopter. They definitely will not be able to meet these criteria. The government knows it is excluding EH by specifying that it will go with the lowest bid.

This is why I am saying that one thing is transparent: after the meeting between the Prime Minister and the President of France, a fresh wind blew toward Europe. But, once again, the government dropped Canadian content and taxpayers in Quebec and Canada will have to bear the cost. There is no doubt about that.

I repeat, there obviously was some political interference, and Canadian content was dropped.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

Madam Speaker, first of all, I think my colleague is being very hard on the Lada when he compares it to the sort of helicopters the government has in mind. But he also compares the EHs to a Cadillac, when I would compare them to a Lincoln Continental, which is a much better vehicle.

That having been said, before any decision is taken, I would like the member for Saint-Jean to get across to all members of the House the importance of that decision for job creation as well.

We know that if Bombardier is chosen, direct and indirect jobs will be created in Quebec and in Canada. We are concerned about the quality of products and services if we buy outside Canada. If one buys a car which is no longer on the market and for which one can no longer find parts or get after sales service, this becomes a worry. Equipment that has cost the government billions of dollars may have to be scrapped. There is also the question of maintenance and safety.

The government made a promise during the election campaign, at the time, blaming the Progressive Conservative government of Mr. Mulroney. It said all sorts of things, spoke out against free trade and the GST. Now it is even worse than the Progressive Conservative government that preceded it.

Is the member for Saint-Jean taking into account job creation, quality of services, productivity, maintenance, and the safety of these helicopters? Will we have better service and better flight safety?

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my colleague from Charlevoix for his excellent question.

I do not want go on with him over the Lincoln Continental versus the Cadillac. However, it seems to me that there is a difference between a Cadillac or a Lincoln Continental and a Lada.

I want to come back to his question, because I think it is important. We think that if the contract were awarded to EH in the Montreal region, it would mean an additional 200 or 300 jobs for Quebec. This is nothing to sniff at, because they are often high paid jobs. A level of skill is required for these jobs.

In the contracts for the army, there are always economic benefits, because there are subcontractors. I have given you the example of CRL Technologies, which would be prepared to do the emergency lighting.

There is also the matter of the maintenance. It is very important. Since the government bought 15 Cormorants in 1998, why not buy another 28. It would have the same maintenance equipment for them instead of a double system: one maintenance system for the Cormorants and one for Eurocopter. Eurocopter might say “We are going to send experts from Europe, but you have to pay for that. We are prepared to do the maintenance for a year or two, but after five years, we cannot. We are not going to send Eurocopter or a Eurocopter company to North America to look after the maintenance of your helicopters”.

It was a very intelligent question. Basically, the maintenance will cost us more.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that is quite an analogy from the member for Saint-Jean. I do not think I would want to fly either a Cadillac or a Lada, but at the same time there should be a helicopter or a machine out there to do the job. I know that is what the member is seeking to do.

I have in my hands a book that is full of access to information documents we have received on this particular item. I would like to ask the member a question after I read one of the newspaper articles I received as a result of the release of these access to information documents. It states:

Documents obtained under the Access to Information Act by Ottawa researcher Ken Rubin reveal an unprecedented, top-down approach to defining the military's technical needs in areas such as aircraft range and cabin size.

It is talking about the maritime helicopter. What does that say to the member for Saint-Jean? Is the process open or is it not?

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I believe my remarks were quite clear.

I think that the whole process put in place by the Canadian government is not transparent. It is even biased. Because of all the requirements, including the financial ones, some companies will not be able to meet the deadlines or specifications or comply with the financial framework.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to rise in the House, especially on behalf of the men and women who work at the Shearwater military air force base.

I wish to thank the hon. member for Saint John who has been like a bulldog on this file for many years, and I say that with the greatest of respect. I thank her and her party for bringing this very important issue for debate today in the House of Commons.

I will tell a little human interest story before I get into the text of my speech. It is my daughter's unofficial 13th birthday today. She was born on February 29 and, of course, there is no February 29 this year. On behalf of parliament, I would like to wish Jasmin a happy 13th birthday. My best wishes also go to little Erika Nordby, the one year old girl in Edmonton who has proven to all of us that the human spirit lives on in the child. She has given us all hope for the future. I wish her and her family the very best and a prosperous future. I thank her for her indomitable spirit for what she has done.

Back to reality, to the issue of the contract that is before us and the tendering process. It is obvious that the government is up to something. In my earlier questioning of the minister of public works, I asked him about and challenged him on the tendering process. I stated that the way it was split and the way it was done will exclude a particular company from having fair and equitable access to the bid.

I did not mention the company's name. There are well over a dozen companies that could apply for this particular contract. Companies from around the world are bidding on this particular tender. The fact is the minister stood up and said that Cormorant can bid on this. He said Cormorant, not me. Of all the companies he could have picked and chosen, the minister of public works was the one who said Cormorant.

As members of parliament, it is not our place in the House of Commons, regardless of our party or our political background, whether we are federal, provincial or municipal, to stand up and defend the interests of one company over another. That is not our role. Our role is to ensure, especially in opposition on this side of the House, that when the government gives out a tender it is open and transparent.

We are talking here about Canadian tax dollars not the Liberal slush fund. When money is doled out for a tendering process, the contract or even the perception of the contract must be completely clean. It must be open and transparent, and any company anywhere can have the opportunity to bid on the contract.

Companies will compete among themselves. They are very good at that. Companies like Cormorant, Puma and Sikorsky all have the opportunity to bid among themselves, which is what they do best, and then the winner will decide on the best available equipment for the price.

Unfortunately the government has decided that is not the way to go. It will exclude the particular company in question because it would be politically unsuitable for them if indeed that particular company was successful in bidding on the contract.

I am sure the member for Saint John would then ask the following question because I know I, the Canadian Alliance and the Bloc would ask it as well. If that particular company is successful in bidding on the contract, then why the hell did the government cancel it in 1993 in the first place? That is the crux of the matter. That is what the entire debate is all about. It is strictly politics. It is political interference at the worst level, and it is quite obvious that it comes from the minister down. He mentioned it himself. He picked out the company name, not me. It is very clear that is what he has done.

On behalf of the men and women of Shearwater, they deserve and demand to have a proper helicopter in which to perform their duties. Right now Canada cannot meet its IATA agreements for minimum search and rescue requirements. If we ever have another unfortunate Swissair disaster, it is highly unlikely, with the cuts to the coast guard and to the military, that we would be able to meet the requirements.

That is an IATA agreement that we signed. We have a duty and a responsibility to protect our coastlines, especially in the north and the Arctic. We cannot even meet the minimum requirements because the Liberals over there are constantly delaying, treating our military like a bank account that they just keep robbing, taking away from and ignoring the lives of the men and women who work for the military. It goes on and on, not just with helicopters but with everything else. What the government has done to our military men and women is a disgrace.

The reason I speak so passionately about it, as may be known from previous speeches I have made in the House, is that I was born in Holland. My parents and oldest brother were liberated by the Canadian military in 1945. My father chose to come to Canada because of a young soldier he met. He asked him why Canada had risked and sacrificed so much. The soldier from Canada told my father “Well, sir, we had a job to do”. It was as simple as that.

Canada sacrificed many of its young men and women so that Holland and many other countries could be free. My father taught me that from day one. As an immigrant to Canada I feel honoured and privileged to stand up in the House of Commons for those men and women, especially the ones from Shearwater. It is my small way of thanking them and Canada for what they have given me.

The least I can do is go after the government to ensure there are proper resources and funding for our military men and women, so that when we put them in harm's way they will have the best equipment available. They should know that their families back home are well taken care of and that they, in the event they become injured, will not be treated like the Riordon family of Nova Scotia. What we have done to our veterans is an absolute disgrace.

I am stretching the argument a bit here. The reality is that the government has changed the tender process. It was once mandatory to have the replacement by 2005. Now the government says it would prefer to have it by 2005.

I do not believe for a second that the helicopters will be here by 2005. I do not believe it. In my consultations with various manufacturers they have said that even if the bid were announced today a company would have great difficulty securing the final aspect by 2005. They simply cannot get it done.

I wish the government had some guts for once to tell the truth around here. The reality is that 2005 will possibly not be the target date. It should stand and tell the Canadian people the truth. I do not see why that is so difficult.

I know I am stretching the parameters of discussion in that regard, but it is the fact of the matter. It has misled the House. It has misled our men and women. It has misled the Canadian people. That is simply unacceptable.

It is difficult to comprehend why the government acts the way it does. When we look at the history it is quite obvious why it does. Now I understand why the Conservatives have brought the motion forward. It was the Conservatives who were involved in the contract for the EH-101. They put the bid out and everything else. Those helicopters would have been flying today.

It was the Liberals that said if we vote for them they would get rid of it. They played on the fears of Canadians that it would drag us into further deficits. They completely ignored the needs and wishes of the military. It was almost like they were playing the military against the rest of society.

We see what that kind of attitude has done to our men and women in the military. The minister of defence has stood in the House time and time again to answer questions from my former colleague, Mr. Gordon Earle who represented Halifax West, and said the troop complement would never go below 60,000.

Now it is below 58,000 and it is going lower every day. The minister of defence said that, again misleading the House and Canadians. It is an absolute disgrace the way we treat our military men and women.

Another condition of the contract that I think is very important is the hours of maintenance. We would assume with this amount of money, the billions of dollars being spent on the project, there would be a commitment from whichever company is successful that it would require a certain number of hours of maintenance for hours of flying time.

The government is saying that we will save billions of dollars, that we will save all this money, but it does not tell us the current rate of maintenance on the Sea Kings we have today. It is over 30 hours of maintenance for one hour of flight time.

Those costs are not calculated into the so-called savings. It is a disgrace that the government can mislead the House and jig figures around to make them look good. We in the opposition understand that. We are not so naive and gullible as to fall for it.

The men and women of Shearwater air base and many other air bases across the country know it as well. They know the Liberals are not friends of the military or of the men and women who serve. They are certainly no friends of the company that wanted to bid on the contract. I will not mention the company by name because the minister has already done that. It is not my place to support one company over another, although I wish them all the best of luck in getting the contract. I do not believe it will be done by 2005. It is an absolute disgrace.

I have a couple of other things to say. The minister has stated that the procurement will be off the shelf, which means there will be no risk to the government. Could it assure us that the aircraft it procures will have an identifiable certificate of airworthiness at the time of purchase? Nothing in the contract says that. There is no guarantee that it will be airworthy by the time we get it.

What gives? What is going on in the shady halls or backrooms of the government and of the minister of public works? Who is pulling the strings around here when it comes to a very essential contract that we desperately need? It is not just for military purposes. As I stated before, it is also for search and rescue purposes. Our men and women could have something safe and new in which to fly, and something of which they could be proud.

I have said it time and again, as have many other members of the opposition and even some Liberal members. Our men and women of national defence are some of the greatest people in military uniform around the world. They are very proud to do the job they do. We as legislators sometimes make legislation that puts them in harm's way. It is paramount that we give them the best possible equipment with which to do their jobs. Unfortunately that has not happened.

The government delays and delays. I do not believe for a second that 2005 will be met. It is absolutely unfortunate that the government proceeds in this regard. Through access to information we learned that the government was advised of savings of over $700 million by the purchase of a helicopter that is common to search and rescue helicopter. The savings were identified as common air crews, common crew training systems, common spare and support systems, common manuals and common certification systems, et cetera.

The government ignored its own advice and played fast and loose with taxpayer money. It is unacceptable. In my view it is not uncommon. It just spent $1.3 billion on a home energy rebate that did not go to people who bought fuel. It went to prisoners and some U.S. citizens. We even found out the other day that it went to a member of parliament. I did not get mine. I know some charities that could have used it.

That is the mentality of the Liberal side. We are not surprised by that. Nobody is surprised by the actions of the government. It is a common theme that goes on and on. The unfortunate part is that we are not talking about energy. We are talking about the lives of the men and women of the military.

The people who maintain the Sea Kings are magicians when it comes to the mechanics. The Sea Kings have been stripped, torn down, ripped apart and put back together time and time again. The men and women who work on the Sea Kings deserve the applause of the House for the work they have done to keep the machines safe and up to standard.

Even the best mechanic cannot warn about unforeseen circumstances. The Sea Kings are very old. Even the best mechanic cannot do all the work that is required every time. Things can be overlooked, parts can be stressed and situations can happen.

It is incredible that the government did not think of that back in 1993. It is incredible that it is still not thinking of it. It announced the project. In fact when the announcement was made a colonel at Shearwater said it was a red letter day for the air force. He was right.

After all the pushing and shoving by the opposition, the government finally made an announcement. If the colonel had all the information we have now, I do not think he would have said it was a red letter day for the air force, especially now that we understand how the tendering process has worked and that it will not be ready by 2005.

I hope I am wrong. I hope the government proves me wrong. I will stand in the House and apologize to the government if the helicopters are here in 2005. I do not believe for a second that they will be. I wish the government would come clean and say that. It should tell the men and women of the military exactly what is going on. It should be honest with them. They deserve to be told the truth, but that is not happening right now.

It is incredible the government has gone on a secret little mission in Nova Scotia. It had a panel looking at realigned services for the Shearwater air base, the Greenwood air base in the Annapolis valley and the Halifax airport. I suspect with the recent announcement of cuts to the air force that Greenwood and or Shearwater may shut down.

If that is the role and the goal of the government it should tell us and let the men and women on those bases understand what is going on. Again, if I am wrong, I will stand and apologize to the House. I suspect that quite possibly one of those bases will be severely reduced.

As the representative for Shearwater I will do everything I can to protect Shearwater and keep it going. I am sure the member for Kings—Hants would do the same for his area and that the member for Vancouver Island would do the same to protect his. That is what we do. We try to protect the men and women of our constituencies against the ruthless cuts by the government.

This is an era of surplus, yet the government is continually cutting the military. It is no wonder it cannot recruit anyone for the military now and that men and women are going to the private sector.

Canada's military has a history of greatness because of the veterans who served in World War I, World War II, Korea and the Boer war, and our current veterans from the gulf war, Bosnia and so on. Those men and women did great work for Canada. They are wonderful ambassadors for Canada, spreading democracy around the world and defending the interests of those who cannot defend themselves.

The Liberals treat them with such disregard and disrespect that it is no wonder they are leaving in droves. The way they treat our veterans and our current military personnel, as well as the way they look at alternate service deliveries for the supply chain, completely destroys the hopes and aspirations of people in the civilian workforce such as the members of UNDE, the Union of National Defence Employees, who work on the bases. They may not be military men and women, but they are very proud and honoured to do the jobs they do. They are serving their country. What do the Liberals do? They look for alternate service delivery.

I have often wanted to say this and I will say it now. I would not be surprised if one day they stood in the House and alternate service delivered our entire military, contracted it out, completely shut it down, laid off the 50,000 men and women in our armed forces, and perhaps give the entire military to the U.S. or someone else.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Hire mercenaries.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Why not hire mercenaries? That is a good point. Why do we even need a military the way the government is going? It is absolutely amazing. I say that tongue in cheek, but that is almost the approach the government is taking. If that is the direction it goes in and contracts out the entire military, I suggest we should contract out the government and move on.

I could go on forever on this issue, but I am sure the House cannot wait for the questions from the other side that will come my way. In closing the men and women of our military deserve better. They deserve a lot more from the government and from all of us. I hope these kinds of debates will continue in the future so that we can focus attention on what is required for the brave men and women in our military.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, during the member's speech he referred to the crux of the matter.

He described it as basically being that the procurement of the maritime helicopters was split into two; one a request for proposals on a frame and the other for a mission system. The member made the allegation that by splitting the contract for helicopters into two parts it somehow discriminated or provided a barrier against a particular company. In fact, he named E.H. Industries Ltd.

E.H. Industries Ltd. actually made an appeal to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal. I would like to inform the member that the CITT rejected the complaint by E.H. Industries Ltd. I am not sure if the member knows more about this than CITT. If he does maybe he should explain to the House why he is more of an expert than the CITT.

Second, I would like to point out that E.H. Industries Ltd. won the competition in a fair, open and competitive process for the search and rescue helicopters. That very clearly shows that there is no bias against any particular company. In a fair, open and transparent process, it is obvious that the government has no position on any potential bidder. The reason why we put out a procurement strategy, which included a letter of interest, was so we could have a dialogue with the industry, advise what the specs were and do pre-qualification to make sure that we could get the best helicopters to meet the specifications of DND at the best possible price on behalf of all Canadians.

The member suggested that having a procurement strategy which goes for the frame first and then puts out bids for the mission system was a barrier. Could he explain to the House why a comprehensive pre-consultation and pre-qualification somehow provides a barrier to anybody?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I guess in the Liberal world, if everybody was a Liberal life would be great. The reality is that it discriminated against that particular company. Why did that company feel it had to go to court? No other company is doing that. The fact is that this is a politically motivated tender. Everybody knows that. The only problem is we in opposition will say it while the Liberals will hide behind it.

I will throw a question back to the question. Why did the government change the prerequisite of the current tender from a mandatory replacement by 2005 to a preferred replacement by 2005? It is because it knows that it cannot meet that commitment by 2005. It has misled the Canadian people and the brave men and women of not only the Shearwater air base but of all the armed forces. That is a disgrace.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague commented about the cost of the cancellation of the EH-101 and how the government was saying it was going to save money and so on.

I want my colleague and everyone in the House to know that the cancellation of the EH-101 has cost about $800 million. When we look at the cost of maintaining the Sea Kings and trying to keep them upgraded and so on and then the replacement of the Labradors and so on, the total cost for the Liberal government will be $8.2 billion. It would have cost them $4.3 billion to get 43 EH-101s. Now we are only going to have 28 helicopters. In addition, we have been told that the coastal patrol is going to be down to 15.

How does the hon. member see us looking after the coastal patrol when it comes to drugs, illegal immigrants and over-fishing? How does he see it working?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, my hon. colleague from Saint John, New Brunswick said it very eloquently. How do we do it?

As I said earlier, we probably will just contract it out to someone. Maybe there is another country that cares a lot more about coastal defence and protection. Maybe we can use their services because we certainly cannot seem to do it on our own.

The member was absolutely right when she said that the cancellation was not just the $500 million or $800 million initial cancellation fee. We have to take in all the other costs which include the additional maintenance and everything that is attached to that cancellation fee in terms of the delay of the process.

It is not just the money that the taxpayers are very concerned about, it is the embarrassment of our country worldwide. A country that is deemed by the UN to be the number one place in the world in which to live is embarrassed by the fact that we have over 40 year old helicopters being flown by these brave men and women.

That to me is the disgrace, the coup de grâce if I may say so, of the government. It is the disgrace of having our brave men and women fly in those clunkers when other countries around the world have nice shiny equipment to fly. They are much safer and do a much better job. That is an embarrassment that I do not think the government will ever live down because I will not allow it to live it down.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer my support to the member who just made his presentation. He is looking after the constituents in his riding, those on the Shearwater base. He is very familiar with the problems which have plagued the pilots and the crews in trying to maintain and keep those machines in the air.

I know that he has involved himself significantly in trying to help bring the message to the House and the public as to what is going on. That is very important. I will commit myself and the defence committee in the Alliance to do whatever we can to support the member's endeavours at Shearwater.

According to the access to information documents, a new senior management oversight committee was struck. It was called SMOC. It involved high level members of the military, the deputy minister of defence, the deputy minister of material and the like.

When these documents were released, there were immediate complaints. Some offices acknowledged in their memos, which were obtained through access to information, that the top down approach headed by the new SMOC would likely include cabinet involvement at an earlier level. That is access to information, proof in itself, that there was government interference in the process. I would like the member to comment on that point.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to repay the compliment to the hon. member for Calgary Northeast for his efforts and work, during the many years he has served the House, in trying to get the resources required for our military men and women. I appreciate his support in the ongoing battle for Shearwater.

Is it not a shame that he has to recite from an access to information document about the meddling and the intrusion by the cabinet into this decision. It proves what we have been saying all along.

He is absolutely right. This is not about doing what is best for the military. This is about saving face. There is no question in my mind that the cabinet and that particular minister of public works personally interfered in the process so that a particular company would be excluded from the bidding process.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, as my colleague from Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore said this has been an exercise of the Liberal government in trying to save face.

This was not the only campaign promise or commitment that the Liberals made in 1993 in which it demonstrated very little consistency. There were the commitments to get rid of the GST and the free trade. The Liberals as members of the opposition fought vociferously the policies on GST and free trade. Now as members of the government they have embraced them.

This case was perhaps the one that the government was most concerned about because of the symbolism of the helicopter contract. The Prime Minister made a huge issue of this during the 1993 election. At that time he said he would put zero on the cheque for helicopters.

Ultimately that cancellation cost, as my colleague from Saint John said earlier, around $4.2 billion for the Canadian taxpayer. That was a face saving exercise for the government. Maybe the government had a flash of embarrassment based on all the other promises it broke after the 1993 election. Maybe it saw this as the last bastion of consistency to their red book promises. I cannot believe that the government would see fit to waste $4.2 billion of taxpayer money. That money could have gone to health care, transfers to the provinces for education, perhaps lower taxes or perhaps to strengthen our military. Would that not be a great idea?

The government has demonstrated not just contempt for the House periodically, but also contempt for the military over the last seven years. This neglect of the Canadian military is to an extent that we have never seen with regard to the quality of life in the military, pay issues, housing issues and the one we are focused on today, equipment issues.

As the member for Kings—Hants representing CFB Greenwood, this is a very important issue to me. Approximately two years ago I attended a funeral in Greenwood for three servicemen. These brave individuals perished on a mission of the Sea King helicopter. It was a moving and memorable experience. Hundreds of people gathered to celebrate their lives and to mourn the tragedy of their lives being ended so unnecessarily early. The amount of emotion at that time is indescribable.

We cannot put a price tag on that. We cannot put a price tag on the fear that our service men and women have every day when they use these helicopters and risk their lives. We cannot put a price tag on the fear that their families live under on an ongoing basis that their loved ones are in risk because of these decisions. I focused on the $4.2 billion loss to the Canadian taxpayer, but we have to recognize that the other losses have been priceless. We cannot put a price tag on those things. I should say as well that I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester.

Before I came here I assumed that public policy was built around needs, around what people in our constituencies and across our country actually need, and around what our military needs. I have learned since 1997 that politics can in fact be the natural enemy of public policy. In fact, for very short term political reasons sometimes, decisions are taken that have a very deleterious impact on Canadians in the long term. I do not think there is a better example of a case where public policy was sacrificed on the alter of political expediency than the case of the cancellation of the EH-101 contract and the decisions made after that, and I will list some of those.

Of course my colleague from Saint John spoke earlier of the $800 million in cancellation fees. There are also: the Sea King maintenance and upgrade, $600 million; Canada search helicopter program, $790 million; long term service for that program, $1.7 billion; maritime helicopter project, again $2.9 billion; and the maritime helicopter project and long term service support, again, $1.7 billion. The total cost is around $8.5 billion as opposed to the actual cost for the EH-101s, which would have been $4.3 billion. Even with Liberal math, this does not make any sense.

The Liberals could argue that by delaying the decisions as they did, they had the extra time to reduce the value of the Canadian dollar, which they have worked assiduously at over a period of seven years, and they have reduced the Canadian dollar significantly. Perhaps their strategy has been to delay these types of investments as long as possible, because every year of Liberal government leads to a lower Canadian dollar. Maybe that is the stalling mechanism the Liberals are trying, but it is still not working. Even with their valiant efforts to reduce the value of the Canadian dollar and devalue our way to prosperity, they have not achieved sufficient reduction of these costs.

The fact is that in making a very political decision about a life and death issue, the Liberals have treated our Canadian military and the loved ones of our Canadian military darned shabbily. There are issues that rise above partisanship. I do not think there is a member of the House from any political party who does not value and appreciate the contribution of our military.

We can speak at great length in the House about our commitment as representatives for our military, but the cabinet opposite has not delivered in protecting the interests of all Canadians by ensuring that we have a strong military and by respecting the members of that military, whether it is on quality of life issues or in terms of adequate housing and adequate pay and benefits. Also, beyond that there are the equipment issues.

This is a government that has repeatedly turned its back on the military. This is the most egregious example of that because it smacks of partisan politics and Machiavellian manoeuvring at the expense of our brave men and women in uniform.

However, I will tell members today that as long as I am the member for Kings—Hants I will be defending the interests of our military and working to ensure that the people of Kings—Hants and all Canadians benefit from a strong, proud military, particularly the base in Greenwood in my riding, whose service people have provided and continue to provide such terrific service to Canada.

[Sarkis Assadourian, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, earlier I was following the hon. member's speech in which the used the phrase that this is contempt for parliament.

I wonder if he would describe what he did in the previous parliament, which was contempt for parliament and for the people of Canada when he resigned his seat for the leader of the opposition, now leader of the fifth party in the House. He took the population of his riding for granted when he thought the people would vote for the Conservative Party. He resigned his seat and got a job in the leader's office. Then when the election was called last October the member ran again and won the election. I wonder if this would be considered contempt for parliament and contempt for the people of Canada.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

Of course our hon. colleague from Brampton was a little bit off the subject, but if the member for Kings—Hants wishes to respond, he may.