Debates of March 1st, 2001

Supply

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. member for his non-partisan and constructive intervention on this topic.

It is interesting. Here we have an opposition day motion whereby we are debating the future of the Canadian military and the government's neglect of the Canadian military, and even the government's own backbenchers do not have the gumption to stand up and talk about the issue at hand. Instead they talk about something else.

The member described my action of resigning my seat in order for my right hon. leader to have an opportunity to run in my riding as contemptuous. I suggest he address his concerns about that issue to his leader, the Prime Minister, who entered the House under similar circumstances when a member resigned his seat. I expect his leader would be surprised to learn of that member's philosophical aversion to that mechanism by which many leaders have entered the House.

Perhaps if the member were to address his concerns to his Prime Minister about those contemptuous actions taken by that Prime Minister when he first entered the House in the early nineties, he would probably ensure himself a longer period on the backbenches of that government. Perhaps he should address his concerns about demonstrating contempt for parliament to those people over there.

In fact, the people of Kings—Hants spoke quite clearly on November 27 by giving me another opportunity to continue to represent them.

[David Price, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I find the speeches today very interesting, particularly the speech made by the member for Kings—Hants, in which he spoke a lot about the financial side of things and how much the costs ran over. In actual fact we have heard it here that we have actually saved money, because the whole project has changed. It is not the same as the 1993 project. The members on the other side do not seem to realize that. The mission systems are not the same. The needs are not the same.

The most interesting part is how the PC Party has changed its policy. The 1993 system was one helicopter, one piece, but since then there have been two different contracts. That was something proposed by the PC Party. I do not see why the PC members are now going to one piece, one contract. Perhaps the member could tell me why they have changed their minds.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, in regard to the hon. member from Damascus on his road to conversion, first I am absolutely astounded by the member opposite who, in his good work in opposition on this side of the House, actually enabled us to attain much of this information. Now that he is on the other side of the House, muzzled effectively and perhaps wearing those rose coloured glasses given out to all successful Liberal candidates, he sees things quite differently.

It is clear that if we were to compare that hon. member's positions about military issues when he was on this side of the House to his current views, we could see that his consistency on these issues is about as constant as that of the Prime Minister on the GST, free trade, deregulation of financial services or anything.

Perhaps as part of his membership in that caucus he has passed the first test: there is no consistency and there is no commitment to the values and principles that sustain all of us as entities in the political environment.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is certainly a pleasure to follow my distinguished colleague from Kings—Hants, who is very knowledgeable on this question. I also want to acknowledge the hon. member for Saint John, who has brought the issue forward and has been consistent in her concern about the helicopter issue and about all other military issues.

This debate is of interest to me because I was a member from 1988 to 1993 and I was part of the government that approved the purchase of the EH-101 helicopters, which would have been in service now for some time, at least some of them. We would have replaced some of the Sea King helicopters which continue to literally fall out of the sky and present a hazard to our military people.

However, as we know, the Liberal government cancelled the contract that was given by the Canadian government in a way that caused them a ton of grief and cost the taxpayers of Canada a lot of money, with upward of $1 billion in costs for cancellation fees, legal fees, settlements and work in the departments. That is a thousand million dollars that went for absolutely nothing. It was a fee to cancel the contract: a thousand million dollars.

I think of the effort we go through in Nova Scotia to try to raise money for hospitals, social services, highways and roads and all the things we need money for that the government will no longer do. The government says it will no longer have highway improvement agreements and it will cut back on transfers to health care. I think of the thousand million dollars that was just thrown away for nothing to prove a political point. It is very sad that the money was totally wasted and that we have continued to debate the helicopter issue for so long.

As a result of that thousand million dollar mistake, the government has had to distort the tendering process and the calls for proposals on helicopters in order to exclude the helicopter the Conservative government ordered in the early nineties, which the Liberals cancelled. In order to save face, the government cannot possibly allow the same helicopter to be reordered after the Liberals cost taxpayers a thousand million dollars in cancellation fees.

The whole issue goes back to 1978, when the Liberals themselves identified the need for new helicopters. That is 23 years ago. They did nothing about it at that time. In 1992 when the Conservatives came in, they did approve the replacement of the helicopters with one type of helicopter, an EH-101, for all the necessary purposes. The Labrador search and rescue and the Sea King maritime helicopter fleets were to be replaced with the EH-101. That would have given us efficiencies in replacement parts, training knowledge, training of pilots and mechanics, parts inventory and everything else.

Since the government cancelled that contract, it has been divided into two contracts. The government has divided the last batch of contracts into airframe and mission packages. Having been in the car business for some time, I just know what is going to happen when something fails with the helicopter in the future. The provider of the mission package is going to say that the problem is not with the electronic equipment but the airframe and how it has been constructed and how it interrelates to the mission package. If something happens with the helicopter, the helicopter providers are going to blame it on the mission package supplier. In other words, it is going to cost the government a lot more money.

In a parallel issue, I recently heard on the news a good example of what the private sector is doing. Ford Motor Company builds cars for police services. There is inconsistency in the application of sirens and telecommunications and communications equipment in the police cars now. They are so high tech, with so many electronic features and all the bells and whistles police cars have, that they have not interrelated well. There are a lot of difficulties. Warranty on issues has had to be refused because the car company says the difficulties were due to the supplier of the equipment and the equipment company says the problem was due to the supplier of the vehicle. The company has established a new policy. It wants to supply one unit. The police car will already be equipped so that the electronics are integrated and work in sync with the automobile's electronics, the engine, the transmission and all the other features. It has had so much trouble that it is again passing the buck. It is the supplier of the mission package or the supplier of the police car. That is exactly what will happen with the new helicopters. The supplier of the mission package will say that it is not its problem, that it is someone else's problem and the supplier of the helicopter will say that it is a mission package problem.

I know this will fail. I have seen it myself with my own two eyes. The private sector has acknowledged that the system does not work and here we are going into this process. We will have two different parties supplying these things and the people of Canada will end up paying for it. They paid the price for the cancellation of the last deal and they will pay the price for this poor policy of supply and procurement for these helicopters.

The EH-101 is and always has been the military's first choice. It is the helicopter that it prefers and it has identified it as the best suited for its purposes. However the politicians have interceded and said that it cannot be done and that it is not politically acceptable. They said that we have to have a different helicopter so they changed the rules in order to prevent the EH-101 from being the successful candidate. Who pays? The taxpayers will pay once again.

A mistake was made in the first place when the Liberals promised to get rid of the EH-101. They should just accept that they made a mistake and accept the responsibility for the billion dollars of grief that they have piled on top of Canadian taxpayers. The military should be allowed to buy the right helicopter at the best price to do the job.

We are talking about life and death situations. We are not talking about trivial matters. The Liberals should acknowledge that it is their mistake and not put it on the backs of our military and search and rescue people just because of this decision.

The guidelines for the competition have excluded the EH-101 for all intents and purposes. It will force the military to take a helicopter it does not want. It is well known in circles that some of these helicopters are not even close to the criteria that the military really need. Instead of having helicopters that are appropriate for its use, it will end up with helicopters that it does not want. This is entirely for political purposes.

There are all kinds of rumours around. The illustrious member from Damascus raised issues in the House when he sat with us on this side about innuendo, suspicion of under the table deals, promises between the governments of Canada and France, promises between cities and all kinds of other political deals made surrounding this whole helicopter issue. It has been surrounded by rumours and innuendo, but now that the member is sitting on the Liberal side all those rumours and innuendo seem to have disappeared.

As part of the government that was involved with the original decision to buy the EH-101 helicopters, it is a shame to see that decision reversed. It is a shame to see the taxpayers saddled with a $1 billion tax burden, which was the price to get out of the contract, and now having to pay more for helicopters that are not suitable. Those helicopters will be serviced in an improper, non-functional way contrary to what the private sector is doing with new technology, and again the taxpayer will pay.

I would like to see the government just reverse its decision and accept the best helicopter as has been recommended by the very distinguished member for Saint John.

[David Price, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Kings—Hants did not really answer the question, but I am used to that. When we asked questions we did not get answers from the other side. That happens but I will try again.

The PC Party's 1993 specifications show that the contract had separate units: a platform and mission system. I made that recommendation last year at SCONDVA. I would like to know when that was changed in PC Party policy.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I have a question I would like to ask the hon. member for Compton—Stanstead.

Last year in the House he said “Our information says it seems that the Cougar II may come with a promise of a Daimler-Chrysler plant, probably in Shawinigan”. I am not sure where Shawinigan is or whose riding that is, but this is the Liberal member asking if there is a promise to put a helicopter plant in Shawinigan. He went on to say “A more interesting angle is that this deal may also come with a promise of neutrality from the French government in the next Quebec referendum”.

Does the hon. member still think that the member from Shawinigan has the fix in for a helicopter plant in Shawinigan in order to approve this contract?

[David Price, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to be in the House to speak about helicopters, a subject that is not new to me. Today I would like to focus on the remarks toward the central role that the Department of Public Works and Government Services is playing in managing the maritime helicopter project. I will be splitting my time with the member for Haliburton—Victoria—Brock.

Like my colleagues who have spoken before me, I have the utmost confidence in the department's ability to administer this major crown procurement. The Department of Public Works and Government Services is not only the federal government's main purchasing organization, it is the largest procurement outfit in Canada. This common service agency buys everything from paper clips to train services to scientific research and, yes, sophisticated military and defence equipment.

The department services more than 100 federal departments, agencies, crown corporations and special operating agencies, including parliament. It deals with thousands of suppliers, both here in Canada and internationally. On a day to day basis contract officers of Public Works and Governments Services Canada deal with a range of suppliers, from individual contractors to some of the biggest industrial, financial, consulting and manufacturing concerns in the world.

The department averages 50,000 contracts a year, with a total value of $8 billion, or about 57% of the federal government's total annual spending on goods and services.

As the House can see, Public Works and Government Services Canada brings a wealth of experience and expertise to the maritime helicopter project. With a value of close to $2.9 billion, there is no question that this project is larger than most. It is the single largest procurement currently being managed by the Department of Public Works and Government Services.

The same principles apply. I can assure hon. members on all sides of the House that this procurement will be managed efficiently, effectively and with the greatest respect for taxpayer dollars. The reason I can say this is because Public Works and Government Services Canada has 60 years of purchasing history behind it. It has earned a solid reputation as a highly competent and professional procurement agency. It operates to the highest standards which are clearly defined in federal statutes, regulations and policy manuals.

As hon. members are aware, the overall procurement and contracting policies of the Government of Canada are established by the treasury board. These policies are aimed at acquiring goods and services in a manner that enhances access, competition and fairness, and that results in value to the Canadian government.

The procurement strategy for the maritime helicopter project meets all of these criteria. It also complies with the Department of Public Works and Government Services' own framework of guiding principles for procurement.

The department has one governing postulate for all its activities, and that is integrity. Public Works and Government Services Canada is committed to ensuring that its supply activities are open, fair and transparent.

The integrity of the procurement strategy for the maritime helicopter project is above question. As the Minister of Public Works and Government Services has demonstrated through his earlier comments, the 28 maritime helicopters and associated integrated mission systems required by the Canadian forces will be purchased through a process that is fair, open and transparent.

The Department of Public Works and Government Services has identified several guiding principles that underlie this overall commitment to integrity. I would like to briefly review them for hon. members to further underscore the strength of this procurement strategy.

For each procurement it undertakes, the department is committed to satisfying the operational needs of its clients while obtaining the best price through the procurement process. That explains why procurement officers had to work hand in hand with officials of the Department of National Defence to develop the letter of interest and other documents released last August. It explains why the procurement includes an unprecedented commitment to industry dialogue and interaction.

As far as obtaining value, the procurement strategy ensures that once the client's operational and technical needs are met, the lowest price bidder for each requirement will be awarded the contract provided that acceptable terms and conditions and industrial and regional benefits are proposed.

The Public Works and Government Services Canada's procurement practices are also aimed at advancing the government's national objectives, particularly in the area of social economic policy. The maritime helicopter project meets this principle on two accounts. First, by ensuring that the men and women of the Canadian forces have the equipment they need to perform their vital work in the service of all Canadians. Second, by ensuring that a comprehensive package of industrial and regional benefits will be a key criterion in the evaluation of all bids.

It is generally acknowledged that no Canadian company is able to provide the entry level helicopter. However there is a possibility that Canadian firms will participate as subcontractors. We know that Canadians firms are capable of supplying the integrated mission systems and have expressed interest in doing so.

As the minister has indicated, the government's goal is to ensure that Canadian suppliers receive the maximum benefits from both contracts. Consistent with principles used for the previous procurements, the government will be seeking industrial and regional benefits equivalent to the value of the contracts both for the helicopter and the integrated mission system.

Competition is another guiding principle for procurements by Public Works and Government Services Canada. There can be no doubt as to its application to the maritime helicopter project. Two separate competitive processes will be undertaken to ensure that the crown obtains both the required helicopter and the integrated mission system, as well as the long term in service support it needs at the lowest possible price.

Moreover, the mandatory prequalification process ensures a maximum level of competition for the contracts because it will mitigate the risk of receiving non-compliant bids. Hon. members can rest assured that there will be strong competition for these contracts.

Equal treatment is another principle adhered to by the Department of Public Works and Government Services' procurement officers. The department's policy is that all potential suppliers of a particular requirement must be subject to the same conditions.

Several elements of the procurement strategy, including its general openness, will contribute to the achievement of this principle. All potential bidders will have access to the same information and will be kept apprised of any changes and technical specifications and other requirements.

The industry interaction process initiated by the government, which will include the posting of technical specifications and other documents on the project's dedicated website, will provide for a two way dialogue that ensures there will be no surprises at the end of the road. All potential bidders will be given the same opportunity to demonstrate technical compliance through the prequalification process.

Finally, accountability is the cornerstone of the department's procurement activities. As is the case with all other procurements, the Public Works and Government Services Canada will be accountable for the integrity of the entire procurement process from start to finish.

Based on its long history of working with the Department of National Defence on many projects, including highly sensitive procurements, the Department of Public Works and Government Services anticipates no problem in this regard. The two departments have a close and positive working relationship that will be manifested through this maritime helicopter project.

The government will continue to be open, fair and transparent as this project moves forward over the next few months. All potential prime contractors are fully aware of the different elements of the government's procurement strategy, and all bids will be measured fairly against a strict and open set of evaluation criteria.

Some hon. members have questioned why the government is using the lowest cost compliant as the basis for awarding these two contracts when bids for the search and rescue helicopter were assessed based on overall value to the crown. The answer is simple: The mandatory prequalification process of the maritime helicopter project will ensure that all the helicopters and integrated mission systems ultimately considered by the government are capable of doing the job. Once this has been established, the evaluation of individual proposals can focus on cost so that the crown's needs are met at the lowest possible price.

The maritime helicopter project is an important step forward in providing the Canadian forces with state of the art equipment that meets the needs of the 21st century. I know this is of concern to Canadians from coast to coast. Having heard the range of views on the subject, I trust hon. members will recognize the strength of the government's approach and will give their unequivocal support to this endeavour.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I have to ask the hon. member for Compton—Stanstead, does he deny that it was his questions in the House when he sat on this side of the House that uncovered this clear bias that we are debating today?

At that time, when he sat with me on this side of the House, he informed me that there was a problem. He said that the Prime Minister was going over to France to talk with the French government, along with the Daimler-Chrysler plant people, about having this Eurocopter agreement and that it was a deal that was being entered into. He knew about it because it was leaked to him by some DND people.

Does he deny today that he was the one who was asking for a fair, open, public tender process in accordance with the approved statement of operational requirements? What is happening today? It does not comply with that operational requirement.

I ask the hon. member, for whom I have great respect, how could he sit on this side of the House and ask those questions, and then today turn around and say that everything is fine and is rosy? he was totally opposed to it when he sat here.

[David Price, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, that is an interesting question. Things have not changed just because I am on this side of the House. The questions still get asked. I guess the difference is that the questions get answered now.

I find it interesting that the member opposite keeps talking about this as not being a fair and open process. I think it is an extremely fair and open process, much fairer than what we have seen in the past. If we want to go back to processes, as I said before, I have the process from 1993.

If we look back to 1993, we are talking about the same type of situation: a separate platform and a separate mission systems. The only difference was that there was only one company that happened to bid on those two combined issues and it got the job.

[Gérard Asselin, Bloc, Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the speech of the member for Compton—Stanstead has neither interest, substance or odour.

In 1997, when he was a candidate for the Progressive Conservative Party, his speeches defended the policies of Mr. Mulroney's Conservative government and condemned the actions and promises of the Liberal Party and of the current Prime Minister.

How can the member, who has been here since 1997 and was elected, at the time, by condemning the Liberal Party's policies, now be on the other side of the House and defend a position outlined in a speech that was probably drafted by the Liberal Minister of Public Works and Government Services?

[David Price, Liberal, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Mr. Speaker, it is very easy. As I said before, now, when I ask questions, I get answers.

The Progressive Conservative Party is now saying that it has changed its policy. I proposed in committee that the bidding be based on two things: the airframe and the mission systems. Now, the Conservatives are saying that they do not agree with that. I did agree with that, and that is precisely what the government is doing. Therefore, I have no problem with it.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to the motion before us today, the maritime helicopter project.

I commend the member for Compton—Stanstead. The party saw enough support for this member to nominate and elect him as vice-chair of defence and veterans affairs. I remind the member for Saint John that at one time when she was sitting over there with Jean Charest, who was a Conservative, he also left to excel in the Liberal Party. It seems that if one leaves those benches over there, one tends to move up in the world.

I want to deal first with the facts that are before us. We have heard a lot a numbers coming out of the opposition party. I think they found them somewhere in a comic book. This deal will save $1.5 billion over the former government's helicopter purchase.

The contract that involved the EH-101 was $5.7 billion. The contract for the helicopter purchased is at about $2.9 billion, plus the helicopter purchased for search and rescue brings it up to $3.7 billion. This is a difference of $2 billion, even adding in the $500 million in cancellation costs, not with the numbers they are throwing around. In cancelling the EH-101, the government is still saving Canadian taxpayers $1.5 billion dollars.

I know my colleague across the way, the member for Saint John, is concerned about the men and women of the Canadian forces and about making sure they have the tools and the support they need to do their job. This is a priority for the government also. It is why I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak about the helicopter project.

The decision to proceed with this acquisition demonstrates the government's leadership in ensuring that the Canadian forces are properly equipped for their missions. As members know, over the past two years, the government has reinvested more than $2.5 billion in defence. Additional new funding was announced this morning when the supplementary estimates were tabled. As stated in the recent Speech from the Throne, these increases will help ensure the forces are equipped and prepared to respond quickly to calls for help at home and abroad.

In the defence white paper, the government made it clear that modernizing the Canadian forces required several key equipment purchases, including the maritime helicopter. The government is delivering on these commitments.

Our navy has taken possession of the first of four Victoria class submarines. The army has acquired new state of the art light armoured vehicles. The United States has followed suit and is buying some of these vehicles, as is New Zealand. These vehicles are made in London, Ontario. The air force will be receiving 15 new search and rescue helicopters and upgrading the CF-18 fighters and Aurora surveillance aircraft.

In August of last year, the government granted approval for the Department of National Defence to begin the process of acquiring 28 new maritime helicopters. As the Minister of National Defence has said, acquiring a suitable maritime helicopter to replace the aging Sea King is his top capital acquisition priority. A modern, robust and capable maritime helicopter is vital for maintaining multipurpose combat capable forces. I might also, as a side note, say that the United States is still flying Sea Kings and swear by them.

While the Sea King has performed admirably as our maritime helicopter, we must ensure that the Canadian forces are equipped to meet the demands of the future. The maritime helicopter is a vital component needed by the Canadian forces to carry out the range of tasks that the government may ask of them.

The maritime helicopter plays a wide range of roles, including surveillance and control of Canadian territory and approaches, search and rescue, peace support operations, defence of North America, NATO, collective defence, international humanitarian assistance and disaster relief, among others.

The statement of operational requirements for the maritime helicopter clearly describes what kind of helicopter we need to carry out our maritime activities. For example, it explains why we need 28 maritime helicopters to meet our current defence commitments. It explains how much the maritime helicopter must be able to carry in order to accomplish an assigned mission and the airborne time required to conduct the mission.

It also explains what kind of mission systems, for example, communication, sensors and radar, will be required to ensure the helicopter's versatility and interoperability with our allies. The statement of operational requirements is strong and coherent. It is consistent with current defence policy and supported by thorough operational and statistical analysis.

A lot of work has been done to identify what kind of maritime helicopter the Canadian forces need to carry out their defence missions. I am sure the member for Saint John will be pleased to hear that the process to acquire a new maritime helicopter for the Canadian forces is being done with the best value for Canadian taxpayers in mind.

As all members know, if someone has to borrow money to buy something, whether it is a house or a car, one makes sure that every penny spent is used wisely. One would not buy more than what is needed. One would not want to pay a nickel more than one had to. The government understands that the money it has is borrowed from the taxpayer and that the taxpayer is entrusting the government to spend it wisely. That is what the government is doing with the maritime helicopter project.

The government will acquire what the Canadian forces need at the lowest cost to the Canadian taxpayer over the long term. We will get what is the best possible price, compliant with our requirements, over the full life of the helicopter. In other words, we are being smart about it and our approach is very simple.

We will acquire off the shelf, non-developmental equipment. We will not spend more than we have to spend. We will buy only what we need. We will make sure the combined cost of acquiring and maintaining the helicopter is the lowest possible. This will save taxpayer money over the long term. If this is not getting the best value, I do not know what is.

The government will have saved Canadian taxpayers $1.5 billion compared to the former government's EH-101 project. This is after including the costs associated with cancellation and the investments the Department of National Defence had made to ensure the continued airworthiness of the Labrador and Sea King helicopters.

It is not only about saving money. It is also about ensuring the Canadian forces get the equipment they need at a price we can afford. By launching the process to acquire new helicopters the government has done just that. The government is committed to ensuring that the men and women of the Canadian forces have the tools they need to get their job done. Acquiring a new maritime helicopter is part of this commitment. We are doing this in a way that is right for the Canadian forces and right for Canadian taxpayers.

When I was in Kosovo visiting with a quality of life report follow-up, I flew in a Griffon helicopter and found that it was a state of the art piece of equipment. We flew in very heavy traffic and in an area that was consistently dangerous. The operational people on this mission were highly trained and technically aware of what was going on. They were the most professional people I have dealt with.

I take this opportunity to commend the men and women of the Canadian forces for the work that they do on our behalf and on behalf of all of Canada.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, the member talked about figures being used on this side of the House as if they came out of comic books. He also talked about the great deal and the amount of savings to the government in the present tender call. I remind the member that a six pack is cheaper than a dozen any day of the week. Let us compare apples and apples when we talk about costs.

When the minister spoke this morning he talked about the different references that would be included in the tender call. He did not mention the word commonality.

A study conducted for the Department of National Defence by one of the minister's associate departments showed that by choosing the helicopter that could do both services, over $257 million in 1990 dollars could be saved.

Could the member table those figures to show that there is no other avenue the government could have explored? Would he tell us if the government considered the commonality factor when assessing the tender call to make sure Canadians got the best bang for their buck? We are not talking about saving money here, we are talking about saving lives. It is not the dollar value that counts, it is the service and equipment we get for the dollars we spend.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am more than happy to include the numbers I gave in my speech. I know the Conservative Party does not think about dollars. If it thought about dollars it would still be the ruling party. It wanted to spend millions of extra dollars on cadillacs so their members could run around in armour plated vehicles. That is why the party was reduced to two people in the House of Commons.

One of those two saw the light and is now the leader of the Liberal Party in Quebec. The member for Compton—Stanstead saw the light and came over, and is now the vice-chair for defence and veteran's affairs. It is a step up when one becomes part of a government.

We are very concerned. Our first concern as a government is to make sure the men and women of the Canadian forces are properly supplied, properly trained, have the right equipment, operate in the safest environment and still save the taxpayers money. That is what this government is all about. That is what we are doing. The Conservative Party will be down to two again if it keeps talking about spending taxpayer money lightly and loosely, as it has in the past.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I would be happy to table the figures from Liberal programs that show they spent $8.2 billion when they replaced the Labradors, and now the helicopters. Guess what? There will be 33 helicopters. That is the total. We would have had 43 helicopters at a cost of $5.8 billion.

That is $8.2 billion versus $5.8 billion. The taxpayers have been taken. I will table the documents and I have no problem in doing so.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am certainly glad the member for Saint John is tabling Liberal documents. Obviously the Conservative Party does not have any of its own. I would be more than happy to see them tabled and to deal with them. I am sure that if she had checked with some of the people she had dealt with in the past who are now Liberals, they could probably get her some more really good numbers that make perfect sense for any government to follow.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak to this supply day motion, and I commend the member of the Conservative Party for bringing the motion forward.

This is an extremely important issue and I am quite stunned listening to the parliamentary secretary to the minister. He makes it sound like everything is just great in the military. He indicated that the equipment is top notch, that things are going in the right direction and that everything is fine. I will talk a little about that toward the end of my presentation because the defence minister said the same thing at the defence suppliers' conference.

I will talk about how the attitude that everything is okay really does not bode well for the replacement of the helicopters or for the military generally. That kind of attitude in the minds of and coming from the lips of the minister and the parliamentary secretary certainly causes me great concern.

The motion is about having a fair and open process for replacing the Sea Kings. I do not think anyone would argue that the Sea Kings are in need of replacement. However, this motion may turn out to be entirely irrelevant.

I heard a rumour this morning that the government already has a plan in place to deal with the Sea King problem. The plan is to put ejection seats in the helicopters. God knows, we cannot afford to lose as many pilots as we are losing helicopters as these helicopters drop from the sky.

The government plan, and this is just a rumour, is to put ejection seats in the helicopters and apparently the contractor can put in an inflatable life raft. The pilot will need to blow it up when he is in the water, but there will be a life raft attached to the seat and everything will be fine. No one have not quite figured out how to deal with the roof of the helicopter coming off and some other little details, but the government does have a plan in place for dealing with the Sea King problem. I say this tongue in cheek. It is obviously meant to be humorous but it is not really funny.

My nephew flew a Sea King out of Halifax for about five years. He did not seem too concerned about it when he was single and before he had a child. He knew the Sea Kings had problems on a regular basis and that they were ditched quite often. He knew they flew in some of the most difficult conditions on the face of the earth.

My nephew is a young fellow. He already had a commercial licence when he went into the military. He wanted to fly an F-18 but unfortunately the government cut back that program just as he enlisted, so he went with the Sea Kings. He was committed to the military. He wanted to do his job and do it well, and he did. For the length of his contract he flew the Sea Kings.

His attitude, I sensed, changed when his first child was born. As parents we often think about life a little differently when we have the extra responsibility of a child. I sensed at the time he had the child that he was not happy at all to be flying those old Sea King helicopters. He knew the risk to him was greater than necessary. He was willing to take a risk. I never sensed that he was ever ready to back off on a risk, but he knew the risk was greater than could be reasonably expected.

For that reason, when it came time to renew the contract he did not want to fly the Sea Kings any more. He wanted to get back into the F-18 program. They had been losing pilots. He was trained on a twin engine machine the same as the F-18s. There were a lot of similarities, which might sound a little surprising. He told the government he wanted an assurance that he would go back into the F-18 program if he was to renew his contract. He could not get that assurance. A trained pilot with years of experience was lost because the government has no serious commitment to the military.

I will talk about the minister's attitude and what he said recently at the conference. However, with that kind of attitude in place, I do not see an awful lot of hope for the future of the Canadian military as long as this minister and this government are in charge. I am very concerned about that.

The Sea King replacement program is not new. The Sea Kings are from 1964. They are almost 40 years old. My nephew, when he started flying them, was under 25 years of age. He was so much older than the Sea Kings that it is not even fair to compare their ages. It would make him sound like an old man.

Replacing the Sea King was first talked about and seriously considered in the 1970s. Here we are in 2001 and there is still no real commitment to replacing them. I do not think the commitment is there.

Both the Sea King and the Labrador search and rescue helicopters, which are flown by the air force today, were slated for replacement with the EH-101.

Members of the Conservative Party and the governing party have been back and forth on the issue for some time, each saying their program is less expensive than the other. In reality, the program which was put forth by the Conservative government, when we compare apples to apples and equipment to equipment and do a fair comparison, was a much better deal than the deal the Liberals are considering now.

The $500 million cancellation cost is lost. The cost of replacing the helicopters is greater when we compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. When buying military equipment a bare bones helicopter is probably less than half the cost. The equipment put into it is the greatest cost. That is what we must look at when we compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

The points have been made by members of the Conservative Party and countered, completely inaccurately, by members of the governing party. The issue has been dealt with. What I will talk a little more about is the government's general lack of commitment to the military.

What we heard last week at the conference of defence associations was startling. The defence minister and the chief of defence staff both proclaimed that the Canadian forces, with fewer than 60,000 soldiers, was in better shape than at the end of the cold war when it had 80,000 men and women in uniform.

The minister responsible for the Canadian military stood at the conference and said that things were in great shape, the military was better than it was 10 years ago and that we were doing a great job. Someone without a clue about the military might think that was great because it is better than it was 10 years ago.

Unfortunately for the minister, the very next speaker was, who? The very next speaker was Major-General MacKenzie, a well respected man in the Canadian military and a respected analyst of the Canadian military. He stood right after the minister and said that the army could not fight and that the uniformed leadership should have a right to say so. He made it clear that we have terrific men and women serving in the military. The problem is the lack of commitment on the part of the government to replace equipment, such as the Sea Kings. The problem is the lack of proper training and the lack of money for the military. The little bit of money added to the spending today will not solve the problem.

Right after the minister stood up and said that everything was okay, we had Major-General Mackenzie saying that things were an absolute mess. When he asked for a show of hands from anyone at the conference of defence associations who honestly believed the military was in as good shape as it was 10 years ago, not one hand went up.

Anyone who knows anything about the military knows that if a defence minister stands at a conference like that and says that things are great and that they are better than they were 10 years ago, the minister either does not know what is going on or he does not care. It is one or the other.

When we have a minister who thinks like that and says things like that, what hope is there for getting an acceptable replacement for the Sea King? What hope is there for getting acceptable equipment in any area? What hope is there of getting proper uniforms for our men and women?

When I was deputy defence critic three years ago we were debating soldiers' uniforms and basic things like personal kits, and the debate had already been going on for a couple of years. Today we send men and women on overseas missions without proper, basic equipment like uniforms. What kind of commitment is that to our military? It is disgusting.

I know that my time is up and that my colleague for Edmonton Centre-East will be sharing the time.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, based on the comments being given opposite it is very clear that they have absolutely no interest in assisting the military. It seems to me too that they are writing off Atlantic Canada because after all it is Atlantic Canada that stands to benefit as a result of the kind of movement we are making.

Members opposite have talked about political interference. They are the last people who should be lecturing anyone about political interference, especially in light of some of the comments made by their critic, the member for Calgary Northeast, who said that we should use the notwithstanding clause to get rid of recruiting targets that were mandated by the human rights tribunal and which were designated to diversify the ethnic and gender representation in the military. Talk about political interference.

He went on to say that the prescribed levels of women and visible minorities in the Canadian armed forces had compromised combat capability. Shame on him. Finally he asked if we would force aboriginal people to serve in the navy? It is insane and dangerous. Does that not sum up exactly what those people stand for?

Last Tuesday there was a press release given by the member for St. Albert in which he said the government was on a spending spree. One of the departments in which we spent money was defence. Would the member talk to the member for St. Albert and tell him to get his facts straight? More to the point, would the member make sure that he supports the kind of spending that we are doing, and rightfully so, in the military?

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, it is an absolutely legitimate concern that the government is on a spending spree. The problem is that its priorities are all wrong.

The bit of extra money it will put into the military this year does not even bring it back to the level of spending when we came here in 1993. In spite of the fact that the salaries have gone up, all those costs have gone up and it is still not back to level of 1993. There is no commitment to the military. The commitment is to putting more money into the human resources department so that the minister could use it to gain political benefit. That is the problem.

That is where the extra spending has gone, to that kind of thing. That is the kind of program that is improper. It demonstrates that the government does not have a clue about setting priorities. The military, which protect the country and its citizens, should be a top priority of the federal government. Yet the commitment is not there. The minister stood last week at a conference and said that things were better than they were 10 years ago. Anybody who has a clue about reality knows that is absolutely ridiculous.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, in his speech the member said that the current costs of the proposal would be more than it was before.

I advise the House that the EH-101 was $5.7 billion less the cost of the search and rescue helicopters, which brings it down to a $2 billion difference. After we take off the $500 million penalty and the additional cost of operating the existing fleet, it still leaves a savings of $1.5 billion.

The member is absolutely wrong. It will not cost more. It will be $1.5 billion less to Canadian taxpayers.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, that kind of comment demonstrates that Liberal backbenchers are willing to be like puppets. They get the information from the minister and are willing to go ahead and spew those figures.

They know that they are not comparing apples to apples. They know that what is priced out there is not the same as was priced out when the Conservatives made the deal before the 1993 election. They know that it is being dishonest to present these numbers in the way they are being presented.

[Peter Goldring, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Centre-East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to speak today to the motion sponsored by the hon. member for Saint John and to thank my colleague for Lakeland for sharing his time with me.

Through the motion the member for Saint John wishes that the House to call upon the government to act to ensure that maritime procurement be conducted on the basis of best value to Canadian taxpayers. The hon. member is particularly concerned with procurement policies affecting the acquisition of maritime helicopters, but I am sure many in the House would agree that there are procurement problems throughout the military. I will expand the debate a little to talk about other procurement difficulties that the government is having.

As an ex-member of the Royal Canadian Air Force of the sixties, I can make some comparisons today when I look at the equipment in the military and the numbers of members of the military. I reflect back to that period of time and the pride that we had in the equipment of the day. Even though through the years it was modernized somewhat, there was an inherent pride which seems to be missing through many parts of the military today because of procurement problems and being delayed for so long on necessary equipment purchases.

An example is one of the recent cutbacks which needs to be questioned, the cutback of the patrol times of the Aurora aircraft. Patrol times have been cut down from 19,200 hours in 1993 when the Liberals came into office to 11,500 hours today. Their wish is to cut those times further to an unacceptable 8,000 hours per year, despite a written recommendation by the chief of the air force who stated emphatically that less than 11,500 hours would result in an unacceptable impact.

With the increasing use of the northwest passage, coupled with increasing numbers of polar overflights, one might argue for more patrol hours rather than less in order to assert our presence and our sovereignty in the far north. We must remember the circumstances of the United States ship, the Manhattan , and how its presence challenged our Arctic sovereignty not too many years ago.

We have generals who describe our current military by using such words as irrelevant. That is shameful. Two million Canadians served in Canada's military in the last century and did so with great pride. Successive governments have decimated our military readiness in many areas, including Arctic patrols and equipment maintenance.

Recently military trucks were not available to tow the cannons to Parliament Hill for ceremonies. They had to be towed here by motor league tow trucks. It is just one example of how we are treating their maintenance. I would say that is a foreseeable maintenance issue that should be projected. What hope do we have if we need these services overseas? Is there a local chapter in Bosnia of the motor league?

It was detected recently that our CF-18s have moisture problems in the honeycombing of the wings, another procurement problem. Are we projecting ahead? What are we doing on procurement of necessary planes to replace the CF-18? What are we doing today and when is the projection? Will we be sitting here and talking about that 30 years from now? The CF-18s are from the 1970s.

There was also a recent situation with the Leopard tanks where it was reported that over the years the bottoms of the tanks had worn so thin that a screwdriver could be pushed through them. The solution was to weld plates over the bottom of the tanks rather than look at a replacement for a hull that is over 30 years old.

Even more recently there was another procurement strategy where questions arose. It was reported that military barracks in Alberta were being abandoned barely four years after they were constructed. The reason was that hundreds of cracks appeared in the foundation, another procurement difficulty.

Nothing spoke louder of Canada's lack of mobilization capability than the recent incidents on the high seas when 10% of our military equipment was held hostage until we had to forcibly board and take it back. Should we consider procurement capabilities and heavy lift capabilities for the armed forces? I think so. Our lack of heavy lift capability let a private shipping company seriously embarrass us in the eyes of the world.

The compounding of this disgrace was illustrated when only one of the two helicopters that set out to intercept the ship made it to the ship. The second one had to turn back because of mechanical failures.

The military has not seriously listened to the concerns of current and former armed forces personnel about its physical welfare. Current and former armed forces personnel were recently told that their complaints about mysterious physical ailments were likely their own fault, apparently because they are overstressed with worry. In short, they are sick with worrying about their health.

Curiously senior military personnel in European countries and NATO have not adopted the shortsightedness of their Canadian counterparts. Among non-Canadian military personnel depleted uranium with increasing frequency is being singled out as a potential contaminant of the greatest concern.

Yesterday we celebrated the 10th anniversary of the end of the gulf war, but on a rather sour note because we still will not acknowledge the soldiers who served in that war as being war veterans.

We must as a nation demonstrate a renewed commitment to the future well-being of our armed forces. I have seen time and again that whenever Canadians are reminded of how today's freedoms are due to the current and past sacrifices of many in our military they respond generously and with gratitude. Concerns for the well-being of our military personnel should be shared by all and entrenched in military operations manuals and directives. It is those in our military who are entrusted to carry the torch in the name of our war dead to protect the peace and freedoms that we as Canadians enjoy today.

In closing, I commend the member for Saint John for her initiative and support her motion wholeheartedly.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Public Works and Government Services]

Mr. Speaker, the procurement strategy that has been laid out by the government includes a prequalification process which will make key technical requirements available to bidders as early as possible and aid them in receiving technical compliance of Canadian helicopters and mission systems.

Does the member believe that the process of issuing letters of interest, of having a dialogue with the aerospace industry and of having a prequalification process is in the best interest of Canada, our military and our taxpayers?

[Peter Goldring, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Centre-East, AB]

Mr. Speaker, coming from a background in the construction industry where there are a number of initiatives where people prequalify, I believe the prequalification has to be open enough. At times prequalification in the construction industry is sometimes too narrowly focused. It would have to be on the understanding that it would be open to the maximum number of people qualifying to bid on it. When examining the proposals that come in certainly we would reach a point in time when the door has to be closed to get on with sincere bidding processes.

International Women's Day

[Paddy Torsney, Liberal, Burlington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, March 8 is International Women's Day, a day to celebrate women's talents and accomplishments and a day to take stock of the work that needs to be done in Canada and around the world to ensure that women can flourish in all aspects of their lives.

Domestically the theme “Canadian Women: Raising our Diverse Voices for Positive Change” encourages all women to promote respect and tolerance so that all women and men pursue their dreams without discrimination.

On Wednesday I will be hosting Burlington's fifth annual International Women's Day breakfast and welcoming Reverend Allison Barrett, minister of the First Unitarian Church of Hamilton. She will inspire and encourage our guests, including high school students, to continue their efforts to explore the careers that impassion them, traditional or non-traditional.

I thank Reverend Barrett for her generous support in conveying this important message, in mentoring others and in providing living proof that women are taking action in a myriad of fields and that women can and do make a difference.

I also thank my family and my community for allowing me to take my place in the Chamber, an institution that used to bar women.