House of Commons Hansard #24 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was helicopters.
A message from Her Excellency the Governor General transmitting supplementary estimates (A) of the sums required for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2001, was presented by the hon. President of Treasury Board and read by the Speaker to the House.
Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the fifth report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs regarding the membership of the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.
If the House gives its consent, I intend to move concurrence in this fifth report later this day.
Deepak Obhrai Canadian Alliance Calgary East, AB
moved for leave to introduce Bill C-290, an act to amend the criminal code (breaking and entering).
Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to rise today on behalf of the constituents of Calgary East to reintroduce my private member's bill that would amend the criminal code to impose a two year minimum sentence for repeat offenders of break and enter crime.
Break and enter crime is not only a property offence. It is a crime against a person. It is a psychologically damaging crime, often leaving victims feeling personally violated and traumatized. It has the potential to be a violent crime because every break and enter is potentially a home invasion.
The bill is a victims amendment to the criminal code because the result would be fewer victims by imposing a real deterrent on professional break and enter criminals.
The bill would also cut what is a real source of revenue for career criminals and organized crime by breaking the cycle of proceeds of break and enter crime being used to finance other criminal activities.
The courts need a clear direction from parliament that sets out the concern Canadians about this very serious crime. I welcome the support of my colleagues for this non-partisan initiative.
(Motions deemed adopted, bill read the first time and printed)
Supplementary Estimates (A), 2000-01Routine Proceedings
Westmount—Ville-Marie Québec
Liberal
Lucienne Robillard LiberalPresident of the Treasury Board and Minister responsible for Infrastructure
Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order 81(5) and 81(6), I wish to introduce a motion concerning referral of the Supplementary Estimates (A) to the standing committees of the House.
There is a lengthy list of these committees associated with the motion. If it is agreeable to the House, I would ask that the list be printed in Hansard as if it had been read.
Lucienne Robillard Liberal Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC
Mr. Speaker, I move:
That Supplementary Estimates (A) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2001, laid upon the table on March 1, 2001, be referred to the several standing committees of the House in accordance with the detailed allocation as follows:
(1) to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources
Indian Affairs and Northern Development, Votes 1a, 5a, 15a, L20a, L21a, 25a, 30a, 35a and 40a
Natural Resources, Votes 1a, 5a, 15a, 20a and 30a
(2) to the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food
Agriculture and Agri-Food, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 20a, 25a, 30a and 36a
(3) to the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage
Canadian Heritage, Votes 1a, 5a, 15a, 35a, 40a, 45a, 50a, 55a, 65a, 70a, 75a, 85a, 90a, 100a, 105a, 110a, 125a and 130a
Privy Council, Vote 30a
(4) to the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration
Citizenship and Immigration, Votes 1a, 2a, 10a and 15a
(5) to the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development
Environment, Votes 1a, 5a and 10a
Privy Council, Vote 40a
(6) to the Standing Committee on Finance
Canada Customs and Revenue Agency, Votes 1a and 10a
Finance, Votes 5a, 30a, 34a and 35a
(7) to the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans
Fisheries and Oceans, Votes 1a and 10a
(8) to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Foreign Affairs, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 20a, 25a, L30a, L35a and 45a
(9) to the Standing Committee on Health
Health, Votes 1a, 5a, 6a, 7a, 10a and 25a
(10) to the Standing Committee on Human Resources Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities
Human Resources Development, Votes 1a, 6a and 20a
(11) to the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology
Industry, Votes 1a, 5a, 20a, 21a, 40a, 50a, 55a, 60a, 65a, 70a, 75a, 80a, 90a, 95a, 100a, 105a, 115a and 120a
(12) to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights
Justice, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 15a, 20a, 25a, 30a, 35a, 40a and 50a
Privy Council, Vote 50a
Solicitor General, Votes 1a, 10a, 15a, 25a, 30a, 35a and 50a
(13) to the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs
National Defence, Votes 1a and 5a
Veterans Affairs, Votes 1a, 5a and 10a
(14) to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs
Parliament, Vote 5a
Privy Council, Vote 20a
(15) to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts
Finance, Vote 20a
(16) to the Standing Committee on Transport and Government Operations
Canadian Heritage, Vote 120a
Privy Council, Votes 1a, 5a, 10a, 15a, 45a and 55a
Public Works and Government Services, Votes 5a, 11a, 15a and 20a
Transport, Votes 1a, 10a, 30a and 35a
Treasury Board, Votes 1a, 2a, 10a, 15a and 20a
(17) to the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages
Privy Council, Vote 25a
(Motion agreed to)
Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Mr. Speaker, if the House gives its consent, I move that the fifth report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs, presented to the House earlier this day, be concurred in.
Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings
The Speaker
Does the House give unanimous consent for the hon. parliamentary secretary to propose this motion?
Committees Of The HouseRoutine Proceedings
The Speaker
The House has heard the terms of the motion. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?
Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON
Mr. Speaker, as this is kidney month I should like to present two petitions from people who are concerned about those who have kidney disease.
The first petition is signed by hundreds of people from the Peterborough region who point out that kidney dialysis and transplantation have been valuable and continue to be useful, but that there are difficulties with dialysis treatments and that the rates of organ donation are not sufficient to meet the needs.
Therefore they call upon parliament to work and support research toward the bioartificial kidney, which will eventually eliminate the need for both dialysis and transplantation for those suffering from kidney disease.
The second petition is signed by many people in Peterborough and central Ontario who point out that kidney disease is a huge and growing problem, which they want us to note especially during kidney month.
They also point out that progress is being made in various treatments, but they call upon parliament to encourage the Canadian Institutes of Health Research to explicitly include kidney research as one of the institutes in its system, that institute to be named the institute of kidney and urinary tract diseases.
Peter Adams Liberal Peterborough, ON
Lastly, Mr. Speaker, there are still people concerned about the renaming of Mount Logan. My understanding is that this is no longer an issue, but I have recently received a petition that urges parliament to put on hold efforts to rename Mount Logan until such time as this and other suggestions concerning memorials to Pierre Elliott Trudeau have been properly assessed.
Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Mr. Speaker, I would ask that all questions be allowed to stand.
Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB
moved:
That this House call on the government to eliminate the barriers in the Letter of Interest to the aerospace industry, which impede a fair and open Maritime Helicopter Project, and that maritime procurement be conducted on a “best value to the Canadian taxpayers” basis, in accordance with the Treasury Board guidelines.
Mr. Speaker, I should like to inform the Chair that I intend to split my time this morning with the member for St. John's West, Newfoundland. You have Saint John, New Brunswick, here and you will have St. John's West, Newfoundland. Boy, when they come from Saint John and St. John's, the Liberals better look out.
The motion we debate today cuts to the very heart of an issue that has seized the attention of the House and indeed of the country for some time. In my seven years in this place I have risen many times to speak against the government's actions on defence and speak out for the military.
In the last seven years we have watched as our military forces were cut. We have seen a near constant decline in troop morale. We have witnessed countless equipment failures, all due to government neglect. That which we will discuss today is certainly the most outrageous and offensive example of government interference and misconduct I have ever seen.
I need not tell the House that in August of last year the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Public Works and Government Services initiated a program to replace our aging Sea King helicopters, something they had promised to do by the year 2000 in their 1994 defence white paper.
I need not tell the House that the procurement process put in place has come under serious attack by stakeholders in the global aerospace industry. I need not even tell the House that the majority of those now sitting on the government side were elected in 1993 on a promise to cancel a helicopter contract to replace the same Sea Kings still in use today, which cancellation cost taxpayers anywhere from $800 million to $1 billion.
The Canadian armed forces are in need of our help. Our men and women in uniform cannot come up here, as so many others do, with placards to protest the injustices committed against them.
These people need safe equipment capable of doing the difficult jobs that we all assign to them. We ask the sons and daughters of our Canadian families to lay their lives on the line for each and every one of us in the Chamber. We send them to every corner of the globe. We in the House therefore have the great responsibility and awesome duty to afford them all the protection and security that we can.
That protection will come with cost, costs that can either be financial or even political in nature. I stand here today to tell everyone that the government is so worried about paying the political costs of replacing the Sea Kings that it has distorted the tendering process to undermine competition so that it is not embarrassed one more time. The government has already decided who is going to get the helicopter replacement contract. That is very clear.
I could talk about political trades between this government and the governments in Europe. I could talk about industrial exchanges, a helicopter contract there for a manufacturing plant here, but let me for the moment just share a little story.
Last May, a caucus colleague of mine, someone who now sits on the government side, came to me with a conspiracy theory. He said the government was going to award the Sea King replacement contract to a company called Eurocopter. As history and Hansard will record, my colleague at that time and I rose in the House and called on the Minister of National Defence to deny the story. He did.
The minister stood and told us “all that sounds like a lot of nonsense to me.” However, within months, within three short months to be exact, the minister stood in another place and announced a procurement process so strict that it, to the eyes of many, eliminated all of the competition but Eurocopter. The minister and his colleagues produced a document. To be specific, it was a letter of interest addressed to the aerospace industry. That document and the problems it contained is the reason I stand here today.
The letter of interest showed for the first time that it would be “the lowest price compliant” bid that would be chosen. First, it means that no matter what aircraft competes, even if it is only of marginal ability, as long as it meets the statement of requirement and is the cheapest helicopter, it will be selected. If an operationally marginal competitor is even $1 cheaper than a helicopter with 100% more operational capacity, then saving a dollar will win that contract. That is a disgrace. All this despite the fact the treasury board guidelines 9.1.1 and 9.1.2 state clearly that government procurement should be done on the best value.
That document opened the door to a process with certification deadlines and technical requirements that penalized some of the most respected helicopter manufacturers in the world. It opened the door to a procurement process so alien to both logic and reason that major industry stakeholders took one look at it and scratched their heads.
The House knows that one company was so disadvantaged by the letter of interest that it was compelled to take the matter before the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, and now the Federal Court of Appeal.
There are companies that are beginning to say that the process is so flawed and so biased that they might not even waste their efforts making a bid. However the process did not hurt all companies. The only group that is in no clear way disadvantaged by the current competition rule is Eurocopter and its Cougar MK2.
Let us look at the process itself. In their exalted wisdom, the powers that be on the government side chose to split the contract. Never have we seen this done before. Instead of a single contract there will be a process to obtain a basic vehicle and a second process to obtain the vital mission system. In both cases, even with different possible contracts for maintenance and upkeep, there is no question that this will mean increased cost.
So that the everyday ordinary citizen knows what the government is planning to do, it is like saying to Canadians that they should go out and buy a car with no air conditioning, no radio, no speedometer, no tires and then go out a second time and buy all those things and have them installed at a later time. That is exactly what the government is doing with the helicopters. It is foolishness for certain. Worst still it is foolishness with a political motive.
If the proper tendering process was used, the worst case scenario for the defence minister is that he would have to walk outside these doors and announce that the company that won the bidding process fair and square is the very company that this government snubbed seven years ago.
The government knows it made a big mistake in 1993. It is now willing to manipulate the bidding process so that it is anything but fair. Therefore, it will not have to give the contract to the company that can replace these aging Sea Kings and do what is right for our men in the military.
Do Canadians know that there is a special cabinet committee through which all decisions related to this process must pass? I do not think the members know about this. Do Canadians know that the special cabinet committee is so shrouded in secrecy that it is difficult to know who is actually making the decisions? Do Canadians know that with the help of this committee the government ignored the recommendations of the defence department to avoid the political suicide that a fair process might entail?
We are way beyond giving money to golf courses and hotels here. This is not a little problem that the cabinet can sweep under the carpet. We are talking about billions and billions of taxpayer dollars. We are talking about corruption and abuse of power at the highest levels. We are talking about the government sacrificing its own rules and guidelines to force an outcome that does not make it look bad. If things are not changed we will end up with a helicopter less capable than the aged Sea Kings we have had in use for decades.
I am using the strongest words I know to express the anger and shame I feel. I am using the boldest language allowed in the Chamber to warn Canadians of the deceit and dishonesty that we have discovered. I say let us do the right thing. Let us correct the injustice where we find it. Let us do what we were elected to do. If we do not we will dishonour those who came before us and those who defend us from evil if we do not.
Paul Szabo Liberal Mississauga South, ON
Madam Speaker, the member referred to a hypothetical situation where a bidder would bring forward a proposal with 100% more functionality for $1 more in cost than another and that it would be shameful if the government chose the cheaper one when for an extra dollar it could get 100% more functionality.
Does the member feel that it is appropriate for a bidder to provide a proposal which meets the requirements the government laid out in its request for proposal, or should there be an investment in functionality well beyond the requirements which clearly would require more maintenance, more after costs and probably more development? In fact, the development would probably not be complete in time for the certification time frame.
Is the member saying to the House that we should spend extra money to get functionality which is not required?
Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB
Madam Speaker, with respect to the letter of interest that was sent out, only one company, and I stated who that company was, qualifies to bid. I will tell the member what it can produce for our military.
The only group not disadvantaged by the current competition rules is Eurocopter and its Cougar MK2. It is the cheapest aircraft and is based on 1970 technology and design.
The Cougar was just excluded from a four nation Scandinavian maritime helicopter competition for the challenging North Sea and Arctic Ocean environment, which is so operationally similar to our cold hazardous North Atlantic. It could not do the work. It will not be able to do the work here either. Everyone here knows that we need helicopters that will be able to look after the Atlantic, Pacific and North Atlantic. However the way in which this tender has been put out we will not get them.
Art Hanger Canadian Alliance Calgary Northeast, AB
Madam Speaker, I applaud the member for Saint John for her very passionate delivery and support for the military. I am a member of another opposition party, but for some time she has fought for the military's benefit in both procurement and quality of life issues. I commend her on her delivery. She also knows some of the problems that have arisen with this procurement process. She has spelled it out to those across the floor. They are shortchanging the military.
I will ask her to speak a little about the procurement process. She implied through her presentation that there was something wrong with the changing of the statement of requirement on that particular procurement for the maritime helicopter. She alluded to some of this in her reference to the letter of interest. There was a process that took place prior to that letter being delivered which dealt with getting the military to say it would change its mind from the EH-101, which is the helicopter that we know will be suitable for this climate, to something far less.
Could the member talk about the process prior to that letter of interest being delivered?
Elsie Wayne Progressive Conservative Saint John, NB
Madam Speaker, our military people have already written a letter stating that the letter of interest is political suicide. It is not good for the military.
We have the top ranks telling us it is wrong. However, they have been told to stay out of it because that private little cabinet committee is making all the decisions. That is not the way we function in the House of Commons. That is not what we should do for our men and women in the military.
Loyola Hearn Progressive Conservative St. John's West, NL
Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to participate in a debate on such a crucial issue. I congratulate my colleague from Saint John for bringing it to the House. This is an issue that has been discussed for years in parliament, and certainly in the country, for a number of reasons. It is mainly because we are proud Canadians. One of the agencies that causes us to be so proud is our armed forces.
When we ask people to defend us we expect that we will provide them with the best possible equipment to do the job. We send hockey teams onto the ice. For many years Canada, as a proud nation, has watched these teams. They have been made up of people from many nationalities who live all over the country. They have worn the Canadian red and white sweater with pride while representing us.
Those of us who are a little older will perhaps remember the 1972 series that finished up in Russia. Undoubtedly each of us can vividly recall the day when Paul Henderson scored the final goal to win the series for Canada. All of us felt very proud because these people were representing our nation. They were representing our nation in combat but it was a sports combat. For those of us who remember the series, we might say it was more than a sports combat, it was an international combat. However, what it did was open the doors for friendlier feelings between us and other nations, especially Russia. We showed that we were well prepared, well equipped and we could do the job.
On the other hand, we send our armed forces into combat where, instead of the high stick that might knock out a tooth or cause a few stitches here and there or the odd concussion that goes with hockey, we are asking them to put their lives on the line. Not only did we do it during the great wars and other international conflicts, but we do it all the time, even in our peacekeeping efforts.
As we send out our forces, our representatives, those who go to the front lines for us, we do not know from day to day what kind of conflict they will be in. It is our duty to make sure that they have the best equipment available.
When we hear stories about our armed forces today, how they are not properly equipped, how the funding provided is so little that they are living on the borders of poverty, how can we expect anyone to give their all, which is what we ask of them, if we treat them in such a manner?
A typical example is the helicopter issue that we are talking about in the motion. What makes Canadians so upset is not the fact that we are debating whether or not we are providing them with the best helicopters. Unfortunately, under the present tender calls, we will probably not get the best and that is a major concern. Canadians are perturbed by the fact that we have been waiting so long for the machines. Canadians are also perturbed by the petty politics that have been played this last seven or eight years over this issue.
One of the key planks in this government's platform, which is now cowering under pressure, is to provide helicopters. The helicopters would have been provided long ago if it had supported the original idea to purchase the Sea Kings. In the 1993 election, the then Tory government was ridiculed for the excessive amount of money it planned to spend on helicopters. It was told that it should be able to provide helicopters at a cheaper cost.
We heard, in a very sneaky manner during the last election, this government talk about the need to provide helicopters and how it could be done much cheaper than the Tory government was going to do. Unfortunately, people sometimes talk in half truths.
If someone today wanted to buy a car for $20,000 and I promised I could sell the person a car for $15,000, what I would not be telling the person is that my car is not as good as the one that he or she intends to buy. If someone wanted buy a fleet of cars for a million dollars and I told that person that I could sell him or her a fleet of cars for three-quarters of a million dollars, what I would not be telling him or her is that the number in his or her fleet is much greater than the number in the fleet that I am talking about. It is very easy to confuse people if we do not look at the minute details. The people of Canada certainly have been confused and deceived for years by this government in relation to the provision of equipment for the armed forces. This goes right back to 1978, when it talked about the need to replace the Sea King. That was 23 years ago. We are talking about replacing equipment needed by the people who serve us, who represent us on the first lines. What an insult to the intelligence of Canadians. What an insult to the people in our armed forces.
In 1992 the Mulroney government approved a replacement of the Labrador search and rescue and Sea King maritime helicopter fleet with a common helicopter EH-101. The new fleet was ordered at a cost of $4.3 billion, which is what started the big opposition: the cost of helicopters.
When we look now at what we are getting, we find we do not know what we are getting. That is the problem. If we knew what we were getting perhaps we could have some intelligent commentary on it. However, it would not be from us in here. I doubt that there are many people in this whole assembly who know very much about the workings of a helicopter. Some might pretend, and perhaps we do have some people who have spent some time in the field as pilots, mechanics or whatever, but I would suggest that very few really know.
However, whether we know anything about it or not, when we find out that the package will come in four different unrelated components, we sort of wonder what we will get when it is all put together. That is a major concern. By the time we do something like that, put it together, take the final product and divide the numbers into the total cost, it will be very interesting to see the unit price compared to the unit price of the original suggestion made by the Tory government back in 1993.
The motion reads:
That this House call upon the government to eliminate the barriers in the Letter of Interest to the aerospace industry, which impede a fair and open Maritime Helicopter Project, and that maritime procurement be conducted on a “best value to the Canadian taxpayers” basis, in accordance with the Treasury Board guidelines.
I do not think the motion is good enough because when we ask government to do something, we never know when it will do it. I suggest we strengthen the motion with another word. Therefore, I move:
That the motion be amended by inserting the word “immediately” before the word “eliminate”.
The motion would then read:
That this House call upon the government to immediately eliminate the barriers in the Letter of Interest to the aerospace industry—
Derek Lee LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Leader of the Government in the House of Commons
Madam Speaker, listening to the debate on the opposition motion today I am hearing a moderate amount of negativity. I am puzzled where that might come from, but I understand that partisanship lends itself to creation of negativity from time to time.
However, one should note that the armed forces and our government, on behalf of Canadians, have successfully gone through a procurement of a search and rescue helicopter, which is a fairly sophisticated procurement initiative. I think the initiative was very successful. I believe we are on the verge of accepting the first of those search and rescue helicopters to replace the existing older search and rescue helicopters, the Chinooks, that are now in place.
If the government has, in my view, successfully gone through a procurement initiative to obtain the search and rescue helicopter, that process being almost complete now, why is it that members opposite would just presume or assume that a second initiative to replace the Sea Kings, the maritime helicopter, could turn out to be an alleged mess? I will not use some of the other negative words, but how could the government have suddenly taken a turn to go so wrong, when in my view it has appeared to operate so well in procuring the new search and rescue helicopter?