Debates of March 13th, 2001

Supply

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, as I understand what has been put forward today, there would be an onus on people to register themselves when they arrive in a particular community or within a limited time after their arrival, and there would be penalties for not doing so.

Obviously these penalties have to be sufficient to be a deterrent. When we get down to having legislation before us, we can talk about what that might be, but in terms of the principle that there should be some penalty for not registering, I would certainly agree with the hon. member.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I think my colleague is aware of the respect I have for him when he speaks in the House and the respect I have for his experience. Once in a while when things happen in the House involving partisan politics and how the House runs, we go to our colleague because he has the experience.

There is an issue that has been bothering me all morning since the solicitor general said the government would vote for the motion but that the government is already doing what is in it. In fact, 30,000 policemen in the country say the government is not doing it. Virtually everybody we have talked to says the government is not doing it and that the system does not work right.

It looks like we have unanimous consent on the motion, but the trouble is that on the other side I think the government is saying it will agree with the motion but it will not change anything.

I would like the member's comments on how he reads the way the government shuffles through this kind of issue.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, to elaborate on the point I made earlier, I think the government does sound a bit self-contradictory in supporting the motion, which clearly calls for something that is not now the case. In supporting the motion, the government says that what the motion calls for is already the case. I do not think it made a very good argument—at least it did not convince me—that what we have now is what the motion calls for. It has not convinced the Canadian Police Association and I do not think it would convince anybody who takes a decent look at the facts.

However, this has been the government strategy on a number of occasions. One of the other things it has tried to do from time to time in regard to previous opposition day motions is to make a motion to amend the wording. Rather than having the motion say “bring in X”, the government amends it to read “continue to do X”, as if it had always been doing it. The government did not have that opportunity today, so the only way it has to blunt the effect of the motion is to vote for it.

There would be nothing wrong with voting for it if the government were actually willing to admit that what it has now is not adequate. That would not be a sin. That would not be the end of the world. Part of the problem is that is very difficult for a government to say that what it has now is not working, that it realizes this, that the motion is an idea whose time has come and that it will vote for it. I think that is something the opposition benches could genuinely have celebrated.

However, for the government to say it will vote for the motion after it has mounted a cheerleader type of defence of everything it is doing now is just not quite as satisfying.

[Jim Pankiw, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In the debate, the member for Langley—Abbotsford and the member for Winnipeg—Transcona clearly outlined a problem facing the House of Commons, that is, we will be voting on a motion tonight and yet there is not a clear understanding of the purpose or the intent of the motion. Government members indicate that they intend to vote for it, yet it is obvious that—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but he is making more of a speech than a point of order.

[Jim Pankiw, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

My point is that we are talking about apples and oranges. I seek the unanimous consent of the House to continue the debate with the members for Winnipeg—Transcona and Langley—Abbotsford, to invite the participation of the solicitor general and his parliamentary secretary, and to hash out what we are really talking about today. Otherwise it is making a mockery of the House of Commons. The Liberals will vote for something they say is not what we are debating.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The hon. member cannot refer to members who are not in the House.

The hon. member has asked for unanimous consent of the House to give a speaker who has already spoken to the bill the opportunity to speak again. Is there unanimous consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to participate in the debate on this very worth while and very common sense motion that has been brought forward. I am equally pleased that the matter will be voted upon, whereby all members of the House will have an opportunity to express their support or lack of support for the motion.

I would deem this motion to be a very common sense, mother's milk type of motion that is very much aimed at protecting our most vulnerable members of society, our children. This motion would put in place a registry that would provide information which would allow the police to have better access to information about the whereabouts of offenders and about convictions of a sexual nature that have been registered in the courts. This would provide them with the enhanced ability to protect society and to carry out their appointed task. It would simply give them more tools with which to do their job and protect society and, more specifically, protect children.

The motion calls upon the government to establish a registry by January 1, 2002. The member for Langley—Abbotsford is to be commended for bringing this motion forward with the honest intent of ensuring that the registry system is in place by that date.

The government has indicated, in its attempt to co-opt this motion—and there has been some discussion about methods in which it often does this by amending—that it will be supporting the motion. One can only hope that there is a similar and genuine intent behind it to fulfil this commitment, but again, the House will have to excuse my skepticism. We have seen instances as recently as a few weeks ago in this parliament, when Liberal members voted against a motion that essentially came from their own red book. We know that in the Liberal red book there is in fact a reference, albeit an oblique one, to a similar commitment to put a sex offender registry in place.

Government members have indicated today that they may support the motion. Time will tell. Similarly, I hope Canadians, and in particular victims' groups and police officers, will watch what happens after today to see if there is a real commitment. I mean more than just the words, more than the mouthing of the words and the reannouncement of other motions and other commitments that have been made.

I should indicate at this point, Mr. Speaker, that I will be splitting my time with the indomitable, unsinkable member for Saint John. I can assure the House that she will be speaking in favour of this motion, as am I. We have unanimous support in the Progressive Conservative Party for this important motion.

There has been reference to the fact that models in other countries are working. I am talking about the United Kingdom and the United States. Most recently, we have seen efforts made in the province of Ontario to support a similar type of registry. Other provinces are also looking at bringing this motion forward. Members will know that the province of Ontario has put forth concrete examples of how it intends to approach this problem, and it is a problem.

It has been acknowledged by the president of the Canadian Police Association, Grant Obst, that the current system is not working. There is not a current system in place that necessitates the reporting upon release of those who have been convicted of sexual offences to police so that it can track their whereabouts and ensure that individuals who have this past will be identified and will not, often for insidious reasons, find themselves involved in groups where they would be in a position of trust, able to prey upon children and able to perpetrate horrific crimes which have lifelong implications that are so damaging and damning that the children's lives are ruined for all intents and purposes. Often, and I believe it has been alluded to in this debate as well, the same victims go on to perpetrate this type of heinous crime.

It cannot be any more fundamental than that. We should be tasked in this place to do everything we can, everything within our reasonable ability to ensure we are protecting children. This is a very straightforward, common sense way to go about it.

Much of the Ontario example to which other members and I have alluded was as a result of an horrific tragedy in the province of Ontario where Christopher Stephenson was murdered in 1988 by Joseph Fredericks, a convicted pedophile who was out on parole at the time. There was an inquest and a lengthy examination of the factual circumstances of the case and circumstances surrounding similar crimes. The inquest resulted in the suggestion that there should be a creation of a national sex offender registry.

The motion as presented does not bind the House to proceed in any certain direction. I would suggest that it could be used to complement the current CPIC system or it could be a stand alone system.

There is certainly ample evidence of a contradiction, to which the member for Winnipeg—Transcona alluded, that the government would somehow justify not pursuing this as a stand alone system. It used the same argument, because offenders would not voluntarily register, when the same system used for registering firearms was plagued with the issue of non-compliance and individuals who are not voluntarily complying on pain of criminal conviction, one might add.

The government is not prepared to put in place a system that would mandate that sex offenders participate in registry, but it is willing to put in place at huge expense to the Canadian public purse, $500 million plus, that if people do not register their long guns, being law-abiding citizens their entire lives, they are subject to criminal prosecution. It is absolutely perverse, but it is atypical of the attitude of the Liberal government and the endless pursuit of bureaucracy in putting in place systems that will not work.

Here we have a system being presented, a common sense approach to protect children, and it will apparently be sloughed aside or given lip service in a vote later today by the Liberals. It will not be followed up. While other governments like the government of the province of Ontario are pushing for the federal government to create a national registry, this is being rejected.

Soon after the Liberals rejected Bill C-247, a private member's bill introduced by their own member for Mississauga East, we saw an attempt by one government member to bring forward a process that would allow for consecutive sentencing for repeat or multiple murderers, sex offenders, or those convicted of violent crimes. There was a rejection, an outright campaign on the government side to ensure that type of legislation did not come into effect.

The Ontario government in its wisdom passed that legislation 90 to 0, it is worth noting, in its provincial legislature on April 4, 2000. Christopher's law is the first of its kind in the country. It requires those convicted of serious sexual offences, those who are dangerous, high risk sex offenders, to register their names and addresses with the police in the jurisdictions where they will be residing.

The information in the registry could be available to local police forces. They would have the ability to release the information, when required and when justified, to public groups such as the Guides, the Scouts, Big Brothers and hockey organizations or athletic organizations.

That is the purpose for which this type of information could be used. There is also the deterrent aspect. Knowing that the registry is in place and that the information is available to police and to certain groups acts as a deterrent. It is the equivalent of the sword of Damocles hanging over an offender's head if he or she chose to be indiscreet.

There are practical implications for such a registry. The Canadian Police Association, 30,000 strong, strongly endorsed a registry. The victims groups, and I would suggest hundreds of thousands of Canadians, see the wisdom in having this type of system. Privacy rights could be protected. The system could be crafted in such a way that it would not infringe the charter of rights.

I wholeheartedly endorse and agree that we should always err on the side of caution when it comes to protecting children from the damage that can flow from the crimes perpetrated against them. The Progressive Conservative Party will be supporting the motion wholeheartedly. My colleague from Saint John will be adding her remarks to this debate.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it did not take long but I figured it out. The Liberals have been behind the curtains in the lobbies passing out this document entitled “Canada's National Screening System: Protecting Our Children Against Sexual Abuse”. It is stated in the document they have printed for all us unwise people “CPIC serves as Canada's national registry of convicted sex offenders”.

Actually the document indicates that basically it is good for a criminal record check. In fact they have missed the whole point of what everyone has been saying, including 30,000 policemen, that the system is not good enough. The national sex offender registry would apply to every person convicted and found criminally responsible. It would require every offender who resides in Canada to register and there is a penalty for not registering. The Liberals will agree with the vote tonight, but what they are saying in the brochure is that what we have is acceptable. It is not acceptable.

I would like to ask my colleague what he thinks is the problem, because he knows a lot about this subject. No one in the country thinks the current national sex offender registry works because there is not one. This document is nothing more than government rhetoric.

What does he think is the hesitancy over there? If anything, everybody in Canada would applaud the government for developing a real national sex offender registry.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I acknowledge what the hon. member has said to be true. The current system is inadequate. It is not working. Police forces indicate that it is not working.

The current system allows convicted offenders to be released into the community, to change their addresses and to sometimes change their names or identities without notifying local police. In the event of an occurrence where there has been a crime committed, an abduction or a sexual offence, the lost identity or that person out there is like a needle in a haystack.

Police forces do not have the ability to act quickly. Equally important, they do not have the ability to make pre-emptive strikes, that is to put the information out where necessary to community groups. They do not have the requisite deterrent effect: the knowledge that offenders would have that they are registered.

Why would the government not do it? It defies logic. The only point I can come up with is that the credit might flow somewhere other than to the government. That is a sad comment.

I believe the hon. member when he says that the credit would go to the government. People would acknowledge that this was what parliament was supposed to do. There would be unanimous support for having a stand alone or a system that would work in conjunction with current computer programs to protect children. It is sad but there is manipulation going on when it comes to the facts surrounding the current system.

[Jim Pankiw, Canadian Alliance, Saskatoon—Humboldt, SK]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough. He referred to manipulation of the facts. Of course, he is referring to the fact that the government is opposed to what is being proposed. The solicitor general gave a speech completely railing against the proposal but then finished off by saying that the government would vote in favour of it.

As the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough stated, it is obvious that the reason behind it is that government members want to avoid the political backlash that would come from voting against what is being proposed. They will vote for it, without any intention of doing it. Clearly they are not supporting it, as illustrated in their speeches. I believe the member for Winnipeg—Transcona referred to that as being intellectually dishonest.

Does the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough believe that this is making a mockery of the House of Commons? Where exactly does this leave us? I think it is a pretty sad state of affairs.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I agree that one would hope partisanship would not be what is getting in the way. It is important to have this open and full disclosure debate about the abilities and the shortcomings of the current system.

It is not with any pride that any member of the House would stand and say that we have a system that is failing. It is certainly not with any pride on the part of the police that are currently tasked with trying to make the system work, as inadequate as it may be.

I fully acknowledge that there has been money put into it. However it is not there yet. It does not have the ability to achieve what the motion envisions a sexual offender registry would achieve. For that reason I hope we will go further and take some positive reinforcement from the debate.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague for splitting his time with me. I thank the hon. member for Langley—Abbotsford for bringing the matter before the House of Commons. It gives all of us on both sides of the House an opportunity to correct a great injustice in our country.

The creation of a national sex offender registry is an important and necessary step in the protection of our nation's children. I know that the people of Saint John in my riding support the idea wholeheartedly.

On a personal note, as a mother of two and a grandmother of two, there is nothing more precious to me in the world than our young ones. Many in the House will understand and agree when I say that nothing hurts us more than when a child is abused. Many more will share my frustration when I say nothing angers me more than when responsible criminals are able to use the present system of laws to their advantage and to strike again.

If we sit in the House and do nothing while sexual predators attack our children, we are as much to blame as the predators. Each and every one of us has a responsibility in the House to bring forth laws that will protect young people from the men who do this to young people. When we hold in place without change a system of laws that allows sex offenders to hurt again we are co-conspirators, each and every one of us. We have a duty and responsibility to protect Canadian families and to take swift and decisive action when we see Canadians are in danger. We must not shy away from our duties or sit idle while there is a clear course before us that must be taken.

Sex crimes are not just committed against our children. The victims can be seniors, adults or young men and women in the prime of their lives. Sex offenders do not discriminate. They are blind to what is right or wrong. They have a real problem. They prey on our best, our youngest, the disadvantaged and our seniors without consideration.

A month ago in my riding there was a man who was following the little elementary school buses. Someone saw him going from stop to stop. Finally someone called the police. As one little girl got off the bus he tried to grab her and put her in his car. Our people were there to protect her, and I thank God for that.

I want to applaud the vision and courage of the government of Ontario for doing everything in its power to create a safer province for its citizens. Christopher's law, which passed unanimously in the Ontario legislature last April, was the strongest signal ever sent to sex offenders that our young would be protected and that they would not be allowed to strike again.

We know that the Christopher's law loses its force and effect at the Ontario border. Sadly, this is a fact known all too well by the monsters who abuse the young. As it now stands, the sexual predator who crosses over the Ontario border may not surface again until he has abused more children in another province. That is a disgusting reality.

If the members on the government side of the House do not support the action we are debating today, they will extend the cover of darkness under which these criminals hide. We were not elected in the House to help criminals. We were elected to help and protect Canadian people.

[An hon. member]

The innocent.

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Yes, the innocent. My colleague for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough brought forth a motion similar to this a year ago and the government defeated it. Today it is telling us that it will support this one. Let me say that I have reservations but I will be here tonight to watch. Every Canadian is going to be watching the House of Commons. This issue probably has a higher profile than any other issue that has been brought before the House.

Like others on the opposition side, we will support and praise the government and all those members who stand up tonight and vote in favour of the motion. To those who do not, I will have my say about what they have done.

Both sides of the chamber in Ontario, Conservatives, Liberals and NDPers alike, voted unanimously in favour of the Christopher's law. That is what should happen here tonight. All parties represented in that great place showed a wisdom and compassion which we should mirror here. This decision is not a difficult one. I cannot imagine anyone sitting in the House of Commons not wanting to bring forth a law in which we can protect our young.

There is no question whether this is right or wrong. There is no question whether this will protect children. There is no question whether parents or the police want us to do this. It is just a matter of common sense whose time has come.

I ask all members in the House to consider the stakes involved and think of that small child out there who can be abused. Just think about that child. Perhaps it is a son or a daughter. Perhaps it is a niece or nephew or maybe for some of us a grandson or granddaughter.

We should think of a sex offender living every day in our community. Consider that this particular sex offender is tempted to strike again. Consider for a moment that this particular sex offender can sit and watch that little child, like the man who followed the school buses carrying those little elementary children.

Imagine, moreover, that the police in the area have no idea of the potential threatened danger because they do not have that man's name or address and have not been able to watch him.

If there is a member in the House today who can consider this very clear and present danger, who would still stand before us saying that a national sex offender registry is something that he or she will not support, then in my opinion he or she has no business being in the House of Commons.

There is already the infrastructure in place through the Canadian Police Information Centre system on which to build a national sex offender registry. I am proud to say that the party which I am part of will be supporting this motion in the House.

The call to arms was issued by our nation's police forces. The government did not act when the hon. member from Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough brought forth his motion. Despite pleas from parents and grandparents alike, the government did not act a year ago. It is the burden of shame that we refuse to carry on this side of the House and we do not want to see that happen again.

It is a sad and sorry thing that we might not otherwise have discussed a national sex offender registry if not for the actions of the opposition side of this great Chamber. Mark my words, not only will we be watching for those who stands against this motion, but the eyes of 30 million Canadians will be focused on the House and on these benches to see how our people vote tonight. They will be watching each and every one of us.

I feel positive in my own heart that the Prime Minister will say that we all have a free vote on this issue. I do not think we will be dictated to.

The merits and logic are clear. There has not been a point made yet that would cause me to reconsider my position on this issue. I know in my heart that that is right. I feel in my heart that all members know that we should all vote in favour of this motion and save our children from that type of abuse.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend the member for Saint John for her passion and usual eloquence on this and many other issues.

Canadians watching this debate must be cynical. The Alliance Party put forward a motion which reads:

That the government establish a national sex offender registry, by January 1, 2002.

It is like putting a motion forward that says the government should manage the fiscal resources of a government with care and diligence, which we do. Of course we agree with this because the government is already doing it. To put a motion in front of the House where the government has already implemented the policy, of course we will to support it. Canadians must become cynical when they see the opposition party putting forward a motion on something that is already being done.

There is another sense of hypocrisy. The opposition talks about supporting a registry for sex offenders, but it will not support a registry for gun control, which is an equally serious matter. It also talks about the members on this side supporting the motion and argues that there is no parliamentary dignity. When we support a motion suddenly we are charged with being hypocritical.

I would like to come back to the point the member for Saint John made. In my riding last year a pedophile was released into my community, in fact about a block away from where I live. His name is Peter Whitmore. It was well documented in the media. He served his full term of five years in a federal correctional prison and was then released.

We enacted legislation to put conditions on release. Those conditions were put in place and the offender was put into provincial custody when he breached that order. I know it caused a great deal of consternation in my community and a town hall meeting was held.

Eventually, because of the publicity and the reaction in the community, he was moved from that area to downtown Toronto. I believe he re-offended again.

This is a very serious issue. I will have no problem supporting the motion because the government is acting on a broad number of fronts.

I would ask the member, if the police are acting on the various infrastructures that are in place, the CPIC and other mechanisms, why does she think there is a problem being brought to the Chamber?

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has told us today why we need to have this national registry on sex offenders. The Canadian Police Association yesterday voiced its support for the motion. Mr. Grant Obst, the association president, stated:

At the present time, convicted offenders may be released into a community, or change their residence, without notifying the local police service.

The hon. member stated that the person who sexually abused that child was back on the street, was moved downtown and did it again.

We have to take stronger stands than what is in place today. What is there is not working and we have to correct it. We have the right to do it and we can. I ask every member to vote in favour of the motion. If in the end this does not correct it permanently, we will come back with even further recommendations in the future. We on this side of the House want to protect that little child.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is amazing that we would give the suggestion of hypocrisy in suggesting that we need a national sex offender registry. The government is saying it is hypocrisy to suggest that because it is already doing it. We are not already doing it. The whole darn country is saying that.

I would like to ask my colleague from Saint John this question. In her travels across the country did she hear people saying there was a need for a national sex offender registry outside of what this group is or is not already doing?

[Elsie Wayne, Progressive Conservative, Saint John, NB]

Mr. Speaker, yes, I have heard it. I heard it from Brownies, from Girl Guides and from Boy Scouts. There is an urgent need for it, more than there was 30 years ago.

Today we have our charter of rights and freedoms which left out responsibilities. Everybody has their rights and freedoms and they can go out and abuse children.

I am saying this issue will not go away. It will not die. We will fight it until we have that registry in place to protect those children.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would say at the outset that it is an honour for me to split my time with my hon. colleague from Provencher who is the justice critic for the official opposition.

I wish I could say that it is a pleasure for me to participate in a debate this afternoon calling for the establishment of a national sex offender registry but to be honest it is not. I am very grateful for the opportunity to rise and express my support for this initiative but it is by no means a pleasure.

We were discussing the need for establishing laws that will enable us to protect society from sexual predators. This is hardly a topic that anyone would enjoy.

I find it particularly galling that the House has to devote its time to debating the underlying principles of our society that are so fundamental for its future survival. Clearly, the need for legislation in this area should be self-evident to everyone. That is everyone except the Liberals it would seem.

I am referring to the principles of safety and security, the ability for us to interact freely with each other without the threat of being targeted by undesirables who lack the social conscience to define right from wrong. It has been said by many authorities that we cannot lay the blame solely on the perpetrators of these crimes. The blame lies with society as a whole. There is some truth to that statement.

As a society Canadians have returned to office a government that has proven its inability to deal with social issues, a government devoid of anything resembling a spine, a government perpetually sitting on the fence trying to pander to both sides of every possible social issue.

Canadians are tired of this pass the buck approach to social policy, especially when it comes to protecting our children, wives and families from sexual predators. This is one issue that Canadians do not want packaged off for yet another ruling by the supreme court.

Canadians elected their members of parliament to debate and develop government policy and it is time that the government recognize that it has a responsibility to all Canadians, not just those with Liberal MPs. The creation of a national sex offenders registry is an excellent example of the kind of non-partisan social policy that the House should be proud to debate, develop and especially implement.

The members opposite are quick to leap to their feet to search for accolades, claiming to be the world leaders in this and the world leaders in that, and yet they are lagging behind the rest of the world in the most basic development and social policy. They are even lagging behind our own provinces. We have heard about that today from other speakers, but let me reiterate.

In April 2000, almost a full year ago, Ontario became the first province to establish a sexual offenders registry, passing Christopher's law by a unanimous 90-0 vote. B.C. and Saskatchewan claim that they will follow shortly unless the federal government acts to establish a national sex offenders registry. In my opinion the provinces have been more than patient with the Minister of Justice and her failure to follow through on the commitments she made in 1998 to amend our laws to finally afford some protection to potential victims instead of continuing to favour the rights of convicted sexual predators.

Our justice system, through its misguided direction from the supreme court, has cultivated an environment where we are afraid to take any action that would infringe on the rights of criminals. What has been lost in this dilution of criminal law is the principle that when people commit an offence against society by their actions they forfeit some of their rights as a citizen of that society.

I am not suggesting that criminals who have paid their debt to society have no rights, but there must be a balance between the rights of someone who has been convicted of violating our laws and the rights of the majority of us whom those laws are supposed to protect. I admit that this is a very delicate balance but in the end the scale has to tip in favour of protecting the law-abiding citizens.

Civil libertarians and other opponents of our proposal have been critical of the creation of a national sex offender registry claiming that it would be a further erosion of individual rights. They have been arguing that there is not a need to establish a new registry because the existing Canadian policy and information centre, CPIC, already does the job. If it did we would not be having this debate here in the House today. If it worked as the government alleges we would not have the Canadian Police Association publicly supporting our motion. The people who use CPIC on a daily basis agree that it does not do the job.

The government would like Canadians to believe that it is behind our motion and that it is being tough on sexual predators, but the truth is in its actions or, as the case may be, in its inaction.

Today, as we debate the motion, sexual predators are free to move around our country and in our communities with no requirement that they notify law enforcement officials of their location. They have been convicted but are not accountable for their deviant behaviour.

From the government opposite we hear that the current system works fine, that we should just leave it alone or maybe amend it slightly. We have come to expect these kinds of arguments from a government that was elected on a promise of maintaining the status quo.

What the opponents have not been broadcasting is that the current system is 30 years old and in urgent need of a $218 million overhaul.

In the past two weeks the Liberal government has been on a spending spree: $2.5 billion in additional spending for HRDC, an agency that has proven it cannot manage its finances; $89 million to Heritage Canada which uses the same accountant as HRDC and is infamous for handing out so-called free flags; $26 million to the millennium bureau for new fountains; and an additional $30.5 million to the government's propaganda department.

In total, the government will spend $165.23 billion this year and less than 1% of that spending has been allocated to updating the antiquated system that we have for keeping track of criminals who are released into our communities. What a warped sense of Liberal priorities.

When I look at the statistics for sexual offenders my stomach turns: 4,951 sex offenders are under federal jurisdiction, 25% of the total offender population; of the 3,250 in federal institutions, only 19% are in maximum security; 1,341 sex offenders are under community supervision, comprising fully 15% of the conditional release program.

The statistics on the probability of an offender repeating are even more disturbing. A study done by Correctional Service Canada on recidivism among released federal sex offenders found that in a three and a half year period following release from custody, about one-third of sex offenders were convicted of a new criminal offence, nearly one-fifth for a violent crime and nearly one-tenth for a new sexual offence. One in ten preyed on more innocent Canadians, creating yet more victims, and those are just the ones that we know about.

As a parent, I am outraged each time I hear of another child being molested or raped by a sexual predator who was released into society after having been previously convicted of the same disgusting crime. As a member of parliament, I am appalled that the government allows this to continue. It is time that we as a society and as a government act to ensure that we have an effective means of monitoring offenders who are deemed reformed enough to rejoin society.

One of the disturbing trends of the government opposite is to completely discount any policy put forward by the opposition parties solely on the basis that it came from the opposition and without due consideration of the merits of that policy. I would submit that it is time for this juvenile behaviour to stop and for the members opposite to grow up and accept that we have a collective responsibility as elected officials to ensure the safety of this country and its citizens.

I would ask the members of the Liberal Party and all of the members in the House to think of their sons, their daughters, their mothers, their sisters or their wives. I ask them to think for just one minute about what they would do to protect their loved ones and to keep them from harm. I would ask them to then recall how, as much as they wish they could, it is impossible for them to protect them 100% of the time. I urge them to think as individuals. I implore them to vote their conscience with the knowledge that this motion will go a long way to making their neighbourhoods and communities safer for all, especially the most vulnerable.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Industry]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed listening to the member's comments. He spoke so eloquently.

However, I want to turn the clock back to maybe 1995 or 1996. We all care for our society and our youth. As I have often said, if there is one crime it is one too many.

I am glad the member talked about non-partisan politics. In his closing remarks he referred to juvenile behaviour. I want to point something out to the member and ask for his comments. As a private member some years back I brought a private member's initiative forward on parole request and making parole request contingent upon successfully completing a rehabilitation program. During the last election they talked about parole being a right, not a privilege.

It was one of the saddest moments in my tenure in the House when the then Reform Party did not give its unanimous consent on that effort of mine. Today, six years down the road, we have shown on this side that when good policy comes forward, we support it.

Permit me to give one example. When the Conservative member brought forward a very good idea with respect to shipbuilding, we supported it on this side. When good initiatives come forward, we go beyond our party politics and support them. Why did those members opposite not support my effort back then on parole?

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I do not recall the exact instance to which the member is referring. I do not remember whether I was in the House, whether I voted or how my party voted on that particular item. I would suspect that he was seeking unanimous consent. Many times we deal with procedure in the House. As a matter of fact, just an hour ago one of my colleagues asked for unanimous consent on a motion and the Liberals defeated it. I suspect that if I were to check the records there would be some procedural reason why people voted against giving him unanimous consent.

That having been said, what clearly needs to be considered today, and it has been talked about by a number of my colleagues and colleagues from other parties, is what is taking place in the House today.

As the hon. member from the Liberal Party said, it really does not matter who brought forward the motion. In this case we have used one of our allotted days to bring forward a supply motion directing the government, if the motion were to pass, to establish a national sex offenders registry by January 1 next year. It is a pretty simple request, a request that should be acted upon in good faith.

Members will note that I used the term in good faith because what we are seeing here today is the exact opposite. We are seeing a government that will direct its members to vote for the motion. It will try to delude the Canadian people into believing that it has already acted and will continue to act with the CPIC registry that tracks released criminals.

However, the police association and other groups across Canada know that CPIC does not do it. They have repeatedly said that over the last number of years. There is no requirement for a convicted sexual offender, who is either released or who has served his time and gets out of jail, to register with local communities. We have no idea who is living down the street. We have no idea who we might hire to watch our children or our grandchildren because there is no requirement.

One of my colleagues asked a question earlier of a Liberal member. He referred to an instance of which he was aware in the state of Oklahoma where there is a potential penalty of a further five years in jail for a convicted sexual predator if he fails to register. That is a deterrent that we should consider if we were to even have the first step taken, which is to have a national sex offender registry.

I am appalled and I hope all Canadians who are watching the debate today and who watch the vote tonight are appalled at the government's hypocrisy in trying to claim that CPIC does the job when it so clearly does not.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to join with my colleagues in support of the motion that calls for the implementation of a national sex offender registry by January 2002.

Noting some of the comments by the Liberal parliamentary secretary made earlier to the Progressive Conservative member, to accuse the Progressive Conservative member of hypocrisy is the ultimate hypocrisy. For years provincial attorneys general have been requesting some form of registry and for years the solicitor general and the Minister of Justice have been examining the issue. Today they suddenly say that they are already doing it. I am sure it is news to every provincial attorney general and to the police departments in Canada. The government is shamed into voting for it and yet it does not abandon the hypocrisy of its position.

I will begin by remarking on a story printed last Friday in the Globe and Mail . It was reported that the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council had been asked to rule on whether it was acceptable to criticize child molesters on the nation's airwaves. The broadcasting council had been asked to adjudicate the matter after a viewer complained that Mike Bullard on his late night talk show had made remarks about pedophiles that were deemed to be inappropriate, derogative, prejudiced and inhuman.

While Mr. Bullard's comments were admittedly in very bad taste and a poor attempt at humour, they expressed in a very blunt way the revulsion Canadians feel about dangerous sexual predators in society. I do not excuse Mr. Bullard's comments but they indicate the concern, fear and revulsion Canadians feel about this crime.

The question remains: Is there a need to debate whether it is acceptable to express distaste for pedophiles and other sex offenders? The issue demonstrates the extent to which we have allowed sympathy for dangerous criminals to impede our ability to protect children in society.

On a weekly, sometimes even a daily basis we hear horrific reports of sexual assaults on children, such as the incident reported in Calgary last week where two girls aged six and seven were assaulted. In addition to the apparently spontaneous attacks, I could cite hundreds of examples in which a teacher, a child care provider or another adult authority has unknowingly been given long term access to children and a tragedy has resulted. The frequency of these cases demonstrates a clear need to keep track of these kinds of criminals.

I think everyone admits that these types of criminals are not cured simply by putting them in jail. We know they need rehabilitation and treatment. We also know they are not cured once they are released from jail. There needs to be a mechanism for tracking them on an ongoing basis.

It is well known that sex offenders, pedophiles in particular, remain at high risk to reoffend sometimes for many years after they have served their sentence. Our fundamental concern in the motion is for public safety. The implementation of an effective national sex offender registry will give police and law enforcement officials an added tool to protect Canadians.

I noted the parliamentary secretary's comments when he said it was hypocritical that the Canadian Alliance wanted a national sex offender registry but not a national long gun registry. Those are very interesting comments but he was not listening. We said we wanted an effective registry. We support effective crime control. We do not support make work, political projects, and that is what the long gun registry is.

The current system of tracking sex offenders has proven to be ineffective. Although the Canadian Police Information Centre maintains a database of sex offenders, the information is inaccessible to many people in the justice system. It does not adequately identify sex offenders or where they live, as offenders who are under supervision or have finished their sentences are not required to register changes of address. This puts police and others working in the justice system at a distinct and severe disadvantage.

Contrary to the comments made by the Liberals, the Canadian Police Association has said the CPIC system does not provide police agencies with adequate information and notification concerning the release or arrival of sex offenders into communities. In light of our motion, just yesterday the association reconfirmed its support for a national sex offender registry. It is saying the Liberals are not doing it. Police officers are the ones in the trenches and on the frontlines. They deserve our support.

The proposed registry would include only convicted sex offenders, requiring each sex offender to register with police in the jurisdiction where he or she will reside. The Canadian Police Information Centre already has a 24 hour registry that is used by every police force in the country to call up information on all types of convicted criminals, stolen property, firearms and missing persons.

The proposed sex offender registry would require an updating of the legislation so that police could access current information on sex offenders and their whereabouts. In this way a separate registry may not be necessary. However it is absolutely necessary that we have legislation spelling out these additional requirements. I am not particularly hung up on how we do it. I am more concerned that we do it. The present system is simply not doing it.

The registry would assist local police in identifying suspects and solving sex offences more quickly. Available only to the police, the parole board and the solicitor general's office, the registry would not inappropriately or unconstitutionally compromise the privacy of any individual. It would, however, assist in protecting the public from sex offenders, particularly children, the most vulnerable and susceptible members of society.

There was widespread public backing for a registry, including provincial politicians of all political stripes: New Democrats, Conservatives and Liberals. In the absence of an effective federal response to the issue the Ontario government created its province-wide offender registry last April. Again, as mentioned earlier, it was passed on a 90 to 0 vote in the provincial legislature.

What reasons could the federal government have for not taking these necessary and crucial steps? Perhaps it considers the cost too great. Perhaps the administration of the system would be difficult, complex and time consuming. However if the registry were integrated into the current CPIC registry then the costs and administrative difficulties would be negligible.

Perhaps the government is concerned with privacy issues. However the registry we are proposing is almost identical to the database already maintained on criminal records.

The motion calls for an effective alternative to the current registry system which is clearly not working. This is not a partisan issue. It is not a political issue. It is an issue about public safety and the protection of our children.

I urge all members to consider the motion carefully. I especially urge the Liberals not only to vote in favour of it but to urge the minister to actually implement the registry so that police forces have the tools to protect our children.