Debates of March 22nd, 2001

Privilege

[John Duncan, Canadian Alliance, Vancouver Island North, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to briefly address this question of privilege. If we look at the questions on the order paper we will discover that there are probably fewer questions than there have ever been.

Why is that? There is a very simple reason. Members of parliament have given up on using the order paper as an instrument to do their jobs because the process has been abused by the government. It does not matter whether the limit is one question or 100 questions. When we do not get answers, people stop using it.

Not long ago I checked the order paper questions at the clerk's table and there were only 18 questions from the entire House. I think the Speaker has an obligation to address the issue.

[The Speaker]

Let me address the issue by citing to the House the decision of Mr. Speaker Fraser on a similar matter, not the one referred to by the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest in his argument. The decision was delivered by Mr. Speaker Fraser on May 18, 1989, and appears on page 1890 of Debates for that day. The Speaker said:

As far as I am concerned, I do not think that it is appropriate that the time of this House has to be taken up by Members having to get up and ask why somebody has not given them the answer.

The Hon. Member for Churchill—made it quite clear. If there is a case where something is so complicated that it is impossible for the Government to give the answer within 45 days, I think Hon. Members would be patient and understanding if the Parliamentary Secretary or Minister got up and said that that was the dilemma they found themselves in. For the most part, there is no real reason in the world why these answers cannot be given. As I say, I cannot order them to be given because I do not have the power. But I do ask that those who are asked to prepare these answers take a look at this rule and realize that when they do not get the answer back to their Minister in time, they are putting all of us through a lot of difficulty and taking up the time of the House, because undoubtedly there will be more points of order raised on exactly this issue.

Short of the authority to order somebody to do something, I cannot make my own feelings on the matter any more clear than I have just done. I agree with what Mr. Speaker Fraser said. I made arguments on occasion to Mr. Speaker Fraser on this point when I was not in the chair of the House. I sympathize, but I respectfully suggest to hon. members that I cannot do anything. I agree with what Mr. Speaker Fraser said. We must consider the matter closed.

When questions come up and the parliamentary secretary asks that all questions stand, I have no doubt that we will hear from the hon. member for New Brunswick Southwest and others on points of order as to why their questions have not been answered in a timely way. As Speaker I am prepared to entertain those points of order, but I do not think it is appropriate to treat this as a question of privilege. As indicated by Mr. Speaker Fraser, there is nothing I can do.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, fundamentally it comes down to the fact that the government has the capacity to answer those numerous questions within 24 hours. What is it trying to hide? Why will it not answer the questions?

[The Speaker]

I think it shows we have completed the point of order. We will move on to the Thursday question.

Business Of The House

[Chuck Strahl, Canadian Alliance, Fraser Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we may not be able to get answers to pretty straightforward questions on the order paper, but perhaps we could get an answer to the question of what the business will be in the House for this week and the following week.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to make the weekly business statement and to indicate to the House that I intend to do my utmost to have order paper questions answered as rapidly as possible.

This afternoon we will resume debate on Bill C-12 respecting compensation for judges. We will then continue with Bill C-18, the equalization bill, which we started this morning. That will be followed, if there is time, with Bill C-17 respecting the innovation foundation.

On Friday we will consider report stage of Bill C-4 respecting the sustainable development foundation, and any time left will be used on second reading of Bill C-7, the youth justice bill.

In an effort to complete consideration of the youth justice bill, we will continue discussing that bill on Monday next.

Next Tuesday we will commence report stage of Bill C-8 respecting the financial institutions legislation. Should that be completed, we would then continue with Bill C-22, the income tax amendment. As previously announced and as adopted by the House, in the evening there will be a special take note debate on the summit of the Americas.

Next Wednesday, March 28, we will debate Bill C-2, the employment insurance amendments, at report stage and hopefully have third reading on next Thursday, March 29.

That is the agenda of the House for next week.

The House resumed from March 12 consideration of the motion that Bill C-12, an act to amend the Judges Act and to amend another act in consequence, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Judges Act

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today in debate to speak to Bill C-12, an act to amend the Judges Act and to amend another act in consequence.

I first must state how disappointed I am that once again the government is going to great lengths to look after what some refer to as the elite of our society. At the same time, what it is doing for the ordinary citizens, other than taxing them into the ground, is unclear.

Those who occupy the upper echelons of our public service are well looked after. Meanwhile those in the trenches, the clerks and receptionists who comprise the first line of contact between the government and citizens, are again expected to do without.

Everything I have just said is almost word for word what I said in March 1998 when I rose to debate Bill C-37. It appears the more things change around here, the more they stay the same.

Judges, for some reason, attract an inordinate level of attention from the Liberal government. It seems that with every new parliament we debate and pass legislation to look after the interests of judges. It is unfortunate that the government is not as keen to address the problems of our young offender legislation or the creation of a national sex offender registry.

I note that farmers were once again demonstrating here on Parliament Hill this week. Thousands of family farms are lost each year as debts rise, but the government does little to address the problem.

I also note, once again, the vast number of RCMP officers who will be seconded to provide security at the Quebec City summit of the Americas in late April. Entire crime fighting units will be stripped of their top investigators. Since most of the personnel will come from Quebec and Ontario, I foresee organized crime having a field day with its drug operations, commercial frauds, stock market manipulations and smuggling operations. I mention only federal areas of police jurisdiction because, as we all know, when the cat is away the mice will play.

When the RCMP is required to take on additional responsibility of the nature of this summit for VIPs, the force gets further and further behind in its battle against crime. However the government will look good because it is hosting such an important event. It will be our citizens and victims of crime who pay for enabling the Prime Minister to play on the world stage. The government looks after the elite but often conveniently forgets the ordinary citizen.

With respect to Bill C-12, I note that the Constitution Act of 1867, formerly the BNA Act, is part of our formal constitution. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as we know, includes the Constitution Act of 1867. It was, after all, the document that set the stage for the country. Section 100 of that document states:

The Salaries, Allowances, and Pensions of the Judges of the Superior, District, and County courts (except the Courts of Probate in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick), and of the Admiralty Courts in Cases where the Judges thereof for the Time being paid by Salary, shall be fixed and provided by the Parliament of Canada.

Some of the names of our courts have changed over the years. Some have even been replaced. This section of our constitution requires salaries of superior court judges to be decided by parliament. That is partly why we have had the Judges Act for the past many years. By constitutional law, parliamentarians have the power to fix the salaries and pensions of superior court level judges.

On the inside cover of Bill C-12, in the summary of the legislation, it states:

This enactment implements the federal government's response to the report of the 1999 Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission regarding compensation and benefits for judges. It amends the Judges Act to increase judicial salaries and allowances, improve the current judicial annuities scheme and put into place a separate life insurance plan for federally appointed judges.

What I am seeing is the derogation of power, at least to some extent, in that the Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission is making a report to which the government must respond. I fully appreciate that the commission has been set up because of Supreme Court of Canada decisions concerning the independence and impartiality of the judiciary.

However what has not often been stated is that Supreme Court of Canada judges are in a conflict of interest when they try to change the law regarding the pay and benefits of the judiciary, which of course includes them.

Having slammed the supreme court judges for causing changes to our laws while they are in direct conflict with those changes, I fully understand that this is the fix the government has put us in. We have acceded to the use of the Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission, but it merely makes recommendations, with all due respect. We parliamentarians must retain full control over what is to be provided to the valuable portion of the administration of justice within the country.

I note that Chief Justice Dickson, as he then was, stated in the Supreme Court of Canada case of Regina v Beauregard:

Nothing would be more damaging to the reputation of the judiciary and the administration of justice than a perception that judges were not shouldering their fair share of the burden in difficult economic times.

Following his works, I point out that for a number of years the country faced severe economic times. I recall the Prime Minister stating time and time again that Canadians must be patient and essentially bite the bullet a little longer until the economy has recovered and Canada has returned to a better financial state.

I urge members of the Chamber to carefully consider the 11.2% increase in salary for these judges, especially in light of the far less significant salary increases the government has been providing to our civil service, our federal police force and all other employees of the federal government.

I fully understand the government being hesitant to open the vaults to reimburse all of its employees to the fair and equitable level in comparison to the public sector, especially when this country has had such a debt hanging over us from years of Liberal mismanagement.

In any case, 11.2% as a raise in salary, plus a very generous pension plan, is obviously creating just the situation anticipated by Chief Justice Dickson. It damages the reputation of the judiciary because it creates at least a perception that judges are not doing their fair share in getting this country back into financial balance. I am paraphrasing the words of the chief justice here.

I may not be the first person to recognize the value of our judiciary, but I will certainly not be the last. I have spent much time in our courts witnessing day to day administration of justice.

A government argument for such excessive salary increases for judges has been that we must pay well in order to attract capable and experienced people. Surely this is just another argument for having the judicial appointment process more open and accountable. As far as I can determine, it has not been that difficult to attract capable individuals to apply and sit on the benches of our superior courts. I often wonder whether this is just not a case of some individuals wanting everything: the prestige, the opportunity to channel legal cases down particular paths, or more regular working hours. Then, after getting the position, they are now politicking for extraordinary salaries.

If members of parliament had the opportunity to become involved in reviewing these appointments, perhaps they would have a better chance to see just what is required to ensure that capable and experienced individuals are encouraged to continue to apply for judicial appointment.

It is difficult to accept pay raises beyond the norm when we are dealing with salaries in the $200,000 range, when we are dealing with, in some cases, sheer patronage, and when the whole process is deliberately kept from parliamentary scrutiny.

As I have stated, it is the responsibility of parliament to decide on the salaries and benefits of our federally appointed judges. Without sufficient information to determine whether such a significant jump in pay is necessary to maintain and/or enhance the judicial personnel, it is difficult for me to accept the proposals of this legislation.

In light of the meagre percentage raises given by the government to so many other needy and deserving employees of the federal government, 11.2% is particularly hard to swallow. I keep hearing about our military personnel using food banks to survive between paycheques. I become concerned about our RCMP members working two or three jobs when their families have trouble paying the bills, especially when we see how rich and powerful organized crime is becoming in this country. When I see these things and others I cannot have quite the same concern for federal judges who are not nearly so badly off financially.

I will be opposing this legislation. I urge other members to have a serious look at what the government is proposing here.

Something is seriously wrong when the government continues to look after the top officers within the Department of National Defence and gives peanuts to the lower ranks. Something is seriously wrong when we have thousands of farmers losing their farms because we are reluctant to provide sufficient help in their time of need. Something is seriously wrong when we have hospital shortages right across this country because the government cut back to balance the budget. Something is wrong when the government continuously brings forth legislation in a timely fashion to look after the financial interests of judges.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

May I ask the hon. member whether he will be sharing his time?

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am sharing my time with my colleague from Surrey Central.

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on behalf of the people of Surrey Central to participate in the second reading debate on Bill C-12, an act to amend the Judges Act.

I would like to talk about the purpose of the bill, which is to implement the federal government's response to the 1999 report of the Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission regarding compensation and benefits for judges.

The bill amends the Judges Act to: increase judicial salaries and allowances; modify the current judicial annuities scheme; and put into place a separate life insurance plan for federally appointed judges.

Let me speak about the details of the bill. The government accepted the commission's recommendation of a salary increase of 11.2% for over 1,000 federally appointed judges, retroactive to April 1, 2000. The salary increase will cost Canadian taxpayers approximately $19 million.

The judiciary had initially proposed a salary increase of 26.3%. It had maintained that the federal government must compete with high paying law firms in order to attract superior candidates to the bench. However, federal representatives told a hearing into judges' pay earlier this year that there was no shortage of candidates for the bench, with about eight applicants for each federal job over the last decade.

The last pay raise for federal judges was in 1998, when they received 4.1%. In 1997 they also received an increase of 4.1%. In other words, judges received an 8.2% increase in two years. Additionally, judges' salaries are indexed so they receive an annual cost of living increase as well.

In the 35th parliament, the government introduced two bills amending the Judges Act. In the 36th parliament, one bill was introduced. All of these bills, including Bill C-12, have been administrative in nature.

Or have they been merely administrative in nature? We do not know.

Canadians can be assured that the official opposition will closely scrutinize Bill C-12. In particular, we will review the provisions of the bill that change the annuities scheme.

The Liberal government has made amendments four times to the Judges Act. The big question is why. We have seen time and time again where the government has tailor made legislation to fit certain individuals and certain situations.

We will also assure the House and Canadians in general that Bill C-12 will not be tailor made to any individual. That is the job of the official opposition: to hold the government accountable. If it were tailor made, it would definitely compromise the impartiality of our judiciary, so we will be investigating that.

For example, the changes being made to the Judges Act allow a judge who is married for the second time to another judge to collect, after the death of his or her spouse who also happened to be a judge, two survivor benefits upon the death of the spouse. One can only guess why the government is contemplating such a rare and highly unlikely situation.

It is interesting to note that the last bill to amend the Judges Act, Bill C-37 from the 36th parliament, created the Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission, which provided the federal government with yet another opportunity to make patronage appointments.

The commission consists of three members appointed by the governor in council. It should be noted who nominates these three individuals. One is nominated by the judiciary. One is nominated by the Minister of Justice. The third one, who acts as the chair, is nominated by the first two people nominated.

The failure of the bill to introduce any changes in the appointment process means that important and high paying positions in our court system will remain essentially part of the patronage system. The Canadian Alliance would like to see the patronage appointment process overhauled to make it more transparent and publicly accountable.

One option would be to strike a committee that would review and interview candidates whose names would be put forward to the Prime Minister. The input of the provinces, which are affected directly by decisions of the Supreme Court of Canada, is required in these matters.

Another concern I have with the bill is that the increase in pay for federally appointed judges is higher than the federal government is prepared to grant to the lower paid civil service employees. Lately it has been the practice of the government to grant raises to senior officers in the military, to senior bureaucrats and now to judges, while dragging its feet on a general salary increase for staff.

The question here is about fairness. All the hard working employees of the public service and the armed forces need raises in comparison to the cost of living. Why is the government only focusing on top executives or top officials and not on the other employees? While we do not dispute that salaries for appointed judges and others should generally be in line with the private sector, it is apparent that the staff on the lower echelons of our justice system are being ignored.

What we propose is an independent and publicly accountable judiciary that would act as a safeguard to protect Canadians from the arbitrary power of the state. However, it must remain the responsibility of parliament, not the courts, to debate and assess the conflicting objectives inherent in public policy development.

The bill does not address the multitude of concerns that many Canadians have with the judicial system, therefore my colleagues and I strongly oppose the bill. We will see what adjustments or amendments the government is willing to accept at the committee stage.

While we have no position on the exact level of judges' salaries and pensions, we generally favour salaries that are comparable to those in the private sector. However, we would like to see an overhaul of the process of patronage appointments in the judiciary to make it more transparent and publicly accountable.

The Canadian Alliance declaration of policy, section 69, states:

We believe that a non-partisan civil service, an independent judiciary and competent leadership of government agencies, boards and commissions are vital in a democracy. We will therefore ensure appointments to these positions are made through an open and accountable process based on qualification and merit.

Public servants should only be given salaries in keeping with the average Canadian wage earner. The government has awarded judges and senior bureaucrats with large pay raises and bonuses, while frontline police officers and lower level public servants receive little or nothing.

It should be noted that on March 27, 1998, RCMP officers secured a pay raise of 2% retroactive to January 1, 1998. They received a second increment of just 1% on April 1, 1998, and an additional .75% on October 1, 1998. RCMP officers have had their wages frozen for five years.

Since my time is almost up I have just a few more comments.

Both of the Liberal justice ministers since 1993 have failed to introduce a victims bill of rights or to address important issues pertaining to drinking and driving or even to pass a new Young Offenders Act. Instead they occupy the justice committee with administrative matters at the expense of more important issues. For example, the country is experiencing a high degree of backlog in the courts and many criminal trials must be put on hold in the meantime, yet the government tinkers with salaries of judges.

In conclusion, I hope the government will entertain amendments during the committee hearings. I regret that the judges themselves are somehow caught up in the legislation. I would like to acknowledge that there are judges who are very hard working and very much want to contribute to making our judicial system fairer and faster and to making Canada a better country.

We are talking about mismanagement by this weak Liberal government. The unfair treatment handed out by the Liberal government to Canadians working or otherwise involved in the criminal justice system knows no boundaries. The inequitable treatment of Canadian workers extends all the way to our federal court benches.

We know the government does not treat the victims of crime fairly and today we are debating a bill that does not even treat judges fairly.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be able to speak today to Bill C-12. It is discouraging when we see another amendment pertaining to the Judges Act. I have been here since 1993, and I believe it is the fourth time the Judges Act has been amended. It is the fourth time I have risen to speak to the legislation.

It is legislation asking for raises for judges across the country, which I believe will amount to $19 million. I do not know the salaries of judges. I would almost bet that if I were in a bank depositing my cheque as a member of parliament and a judge was in front of me and we compared cheques, he or she would probably make me look like I was on welfare. I would suspect that they get paid very well.

I found it surprising that the judges would ask for a 26% raise in pay. I see that the government accepted a recommendation from the commission of 11.2% and that is after already receiving 8.2% in the last three years.

I would much rather be rising in the House of Commons to address legislation other than the Judges Act. I would rather debate legislation that would have some real teeth in it to deal with serious problems such as crime or the need for judges to continue working hard. I know they work hard and I will be as kind as I can to judges, although I question their judgment at times. I am sure all of us do.

Not too many years ago, perhaps three or four, we had a motion put forward creating a victims rights bill. It passed in the House of Commons. The majority supported it from both sides of the House. I cannot say how delighted I would be, after four years, if I could stand to speak about legislation that would create the victims rights bill that we approved some four years ago. What a pleasure it would be, but no, here I am again rising on the fourth occasion because we are making another amendment to the Judges Act.

We have difficult problems. We understand, through the media and through other sources, the seriousness of organized crime and of a number of other issues. There is a cry from the public to do something with the Young Offenders Act, and yet here I am again speaking about judges.

When will this place become a place that really takes its job seriously enough to get busy and create the kind of legislation that we all agree on? I can see where it might be difficult when there is disagreement, but we agree on victims rights.

We all agreed that we should have a sex offender registry. It was unanimous. Not one member of the House of Commons did not agree that we must develop this registry. It was legislation that I was glad to vote on and see passed. It is a tool we need that will hopefully provide a lot of safety for individuals.

If you were a betting lady, Madam Speaker, I would bet you a dime to a donut that four years from now I will be standing here and we still will not have a sex offender registry. Are we so dysfunctional in this organization that we cannot even carry through with the things that we all agree on? What is wrong that we constantly need amendments to the Judges Act? Is it because these fellows and ladies who make pretty good money are underpaid?

I was the solicitor general critic during the last session of parliament. I visited many penitentiaries across the country. Prison guards had been on a pay freeze for nine years, if not longer. For the last six years, before they finally got a pay raise, I raised the issue in the House many times. However, the fact that these lower paid public servants were in a pay freeze did not seem to attract any interest from the government.

It had ample opportunity over those years to do something, to help those guys who were at the lower end of the stick. Prison guards were fairly equal in salary to the RCMP. RCMP members moved ahead at no great speed, but the salaries of prison guards did not.

Some people would argue that a policeman's job is more dangerous than that of a prison guard. I would question that. I believe they are both very dangerous jobs. Most police officers that I have talked to have said they would not be a prison guard for all the tea in China because of the circumstances.

We do not talk about lower level people who work for the public providing the safety we require and whom we need so desperately. Negotiations were held and, lo and behold, the RCMP got a 2% increase in one year. It was followed up the next year with 1%. Prison guard salaries are at a lower level and now a group of people who make a lot more money are asking for 26%.

We will talk about this issue again for the fourth time. Maybe we ought to take the $19 million that this will cost, put it on the table in the middle of the House, and have a serious debate on how to spend the money on behalf of those in poverty across Canada. Maybe we should take the $19 million and give it to farmers who were denied extra money just the other day. Maybe that money could go toward helping out a few.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

You voted against it.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

I beg your pardon. The hon. member says I voted against it. It was our motion and I voted in favour of it. The Liberals voted against it. They turned down the extra $400 million. I wanted it to happen.

It is a miracle how we can come in here and in a flash go through committee of the whole and spend $19 billion. There are probably not two people who can tell us where the money is going and why. There was no real debate on that issue.

We know there is a chunk of money going here and a chunk going there, but we do not know for sure what the chunk will entail. There was no debate on it. It was done in a flash, but we can sure debate the Judges Act for the fourth time.

What about the million and a half children who live in poverty? What are we doing about them? We do not know. We do not have any debates in the House in that regard. We get lots of claims and lots of rhetoric and things of that nature.

When will we start doing things that are of real benefit to the country? If we paid as much attention to the problems with real crime as we have to the Judges Act, we probably would have accomplished a great deal more. Instead, we create a commission. A commission is patronage at its best, the thing the Liberals know best. They provide patronage for their good old Liberal buddies.

I am getting really sick of this institution constantly dealing with these kind of issues and ignoring major problems. It has become totally dysfunctional and it needs to be addressed.

I would point out for the last time that both the present health minister, and I wish him well in his recovery from his operation, and the present justice minister failed to accomplish any legislation of any real benefit for the difficulties in the country involving crime.

I would mention once more the idea of creating a commission. The government is good at setting up commissions. I do not know if any member over there could even begin to tell me how many people work for the government in some sort of committee, some sort of board or some sort of whatever.

How many people does the Prime Minister have to appoint each and every year to keep these positions filled? I am surprised he has time to be Prime Minister. I am sure he has to spend a great deal of it just appointing people to these plush jobs. It must be nice. I forgot to mention the Senate. The Prime Minister must take a lot of time to determine who should go in there.

I was listening to a radio program this morning. It did a takeoff on government called “The monkeys running the zoo”. I thought it was rather hilarious, especially when it was applied to the government. It talked about the Prime Minister being able to measure lies, that there are big ones and little ones. I do not know how anybody could do that unless he or she were an expert in the field.

It related to that issue a lot of times. It talked about a judge making a decision. I do not blame the judge. It is because of legislation that it happens.

Apparently there were 29 postal workers who were fired from the Canada Post for theft. Under surveillance they were caught red-handed stealing cash, cassette tapes and credit cards from the mail. They were convicted. I understand that this morning the court has ordered that the post office rehire these individuals. I am having a real tough time understanding that one. Is that law and order in Canada? These 29 individuals broke the law, were charged, convicted, and fired.

Now their time is up. Evidently they are on parole, or they got parole or whatever. The union took this situation to a court and the judge said they had to hire them back.

I do not know how many entrepreneurs we have on that side of the House, but how would members like to have somebody steal from them all the time, have him arrested, convicted and then after he was freed have to hire him back? No wonder they call that show the monkey running the zoo.

This is one example of all the things that are going on around here which do not make much sense. We are forever dealing with situations where somebody says something they should not have and then had to take it back. As usual, like in the case of the member for Waterloo—Wellington, his first step was that he did not say it. Then we had to take time the next day because somebody woke him up to the fact that he had said it. Then he had to apologize and take it back, and we took time for that. We go through these kinds of monkey running the zoo type of episodes.

I am on duty today so I rushed over because there was an important piece of legislation on the table that they wanted me to speak to. Guess what, I got here, picked it up and it was the Judges Act; again the Judges Act. Good grief, folks, I am getting tired of talking about the Judges Act.

When are we going to get serious and talk about what we need to do with the young people who are breaking the law; youth and crime? When are we going to start talking seriously about all kinds of preventive measures that we need to engage in to keep our youth out of trouble? When are we going to start addressing the fact that our aboriginal people are filling our jails at a ridiculous proportion to the rest of society?

When are we going to start talking about the mother who has two little children who were seriously sexually assaulted by their father? The courts and the judges, because of our legislation, ordered this woman to take these two children to visit their father in prison, and the children did not want to see him. The mother did not want anything to do with him for what he did to their children, yet the courts ordered mom to take these two children to the prison because they had to visit their father. The courts have upheld our laws.

If members want to amend some kind of a law, think about a law that has been created by this government that forces a mother to take two little kids to visit their dad who maliciously sexually assaulted them. Think about a law that forces them to sit with him and phone him because it is the law.

I would like to see a piece of legislation come out of the government of the day. It is the government. It knows about these situations. Do members think that we will ever see a piece of legislation hit the table that would deal with mom who has to take these two little children to visit dad in jail, even though he maliciously sexually assaulted them for days and days? No, it will not even be talked about.

The Liberals will say that the member for Wild Rose is fearmongering again or that he is taking the sensationalism into this, as if it only happens occasionally. It is not occasionally, it is far too often. The government says Canadians are happy with our system. I guess that is why we have somewhere around 10,000 people that hold a membership in some victims society. They are calling for help day in and day out. We cannot deal with all the serious problems out there, but we can talk about the Judges Act. We can talk about these poor, underpaid individuals who need a raise of 26%. Maybe we should talk about all Canadians and give them about a 26% decrease in income tax. Then we would all get a raise. Would that not be different?

Good grief if we did that, we would not have this revenue coming in. If we did not have this revenue coming in, how could be possibly pay our judges another $19 million? I do not understand the government's thinking. It makes no sense to me.

Of course we know from the things in the estimates we approved the other night, a matter of $16 billion, $18 billion or whatever it was there are going to be lots of committees struck. There is going to be lots of active work going on out there. I bet the government has another committee that is going to work for the health department to study us seniors and sexuality again as it did before. It only cost $165,000. Now that I am nearly 65 years old, boy, does that make me feel good that our government is going to spend tax dollars doing something like that.

Maybe there is a group of people in Toronto being trained how to riot properly in Quebec City when we hold a session there. Are they being trained with tax dollars maybe? I do not know. It is probably worth talking about. But let us not talk about that. Let us talk about the Judges Act.

[Bill Casey, Progressive Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Madam Speaker, I want to bring forward a few issues that were referred to earlier today. The member mentioned equality between Correctional Service Canada and RCMP wages. Certainly equalization is very much a part of this great debate. I believe equalization is more than just money. I think it is equal opportunity. It was raised earlier today that the government has a policy that it does not hire people for jobs in Ottawa from anywhere else in many cases except from Ontario and Quebec.

I referred to one example in question period. The Public Service Commission is advertising for 50 permanent jobs in Ottawa which pay up to $81,000 but they are open only to people in Ontario and Quebec. People from the hon. member's riding cannot apply. People from my riding cannot apply even though there are 50 permanent jobs. The government could spread these out a bit but it is if not doing that. It wants the total focus to be from Ontario and Quebec.

Could the hon. member comment on that from an equal opportunity point of view and from a national perspective? These 50 jobs are for planners, advisers and policy people. The government says it has 50 job openings and it wants all the people to come from Ontario and Quebec. How does that make the western Canadian members feel?

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Madam Speaker, one thing that has been talked about quite a bit lately is western alienation. Is it real? Are there people out there who are so disgusted with the government that they are considering alienation? I hope it is not a great number. Canada is the greatest country and we want to hold it together. It will not stay the greatest country much longer if we do not clean up our act.

The hon. member is perfectly right. If we want to spur on western alienation some more, bring out stuff like this member mentioned. Inform all the people in the western provinces that we have these jobs but they need not apply if they live west of the Ontario border or if they live beyond the Quebec border. He is absolutely right.

The government says that it is so fair. It is compassionate. It is so kind. It is the party in the middle that has a heart. It is not going to talk about the many people living in poverty and the children who are starving. It is not going to talk about our reserves where there is a sad state of affairs and third world conditions. It is going to create some jobs and make sure that they are for Ontario and Quebec.

In the meantime when the government comes to the House of Commons with all these problems, it is not going to worry about what the hon. member talked about. It is going to talk about the Judges Act because it is really important.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, my hon. friend from Wild Rose was quite upset and quite rightly pointed out the important issues that the Chamber should be addressing. I know he has spent enormous time travelling to reserves. He has reserves in his riding that require attention.

Since we are talking about judges today, I would like to ask my hon. friend, from his experience in visiting the reserves, would he not think it more appropriate in the Chamber to address the issues that he has seen firsthand? Perhaps he could tell us as well of the judicial systems on the reserves that he thinks require reform.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Madam Speaker, most people in the House are aware that the United Nations has declared Canada as the best country in the world in which to live. If we really are paying attention, it has also factored in the reserves across the country and has said we would be 38th.

I would encourage all members in the House who have reserves in their ridings to make absolutely certain when visiting them to go to the grassroots level and see the conditions that some of these people are living in. I want to make it perfectly clear. Not all reserves are that way. There are some excellent things going on in a few, but far too many are living in absolute poverty with the most disgusting things we could ever imagine.

I saw a sump hole in a basement where they dumped the sewage gathered in buckets because they had no sewage system. Then I learned from one family that they had just buried a two and a half year old child who had fallen into that ugly sump hole. The children were not allowed down there, but as children will do, they found a way to get there. They had been playing when the child fell into the hole and drowned.

There was no running water or electricity. Stumps were used for chairs. They had skimpy amounts of food. Yet they were the most hospitable people I have ever visited. I shared with them what they offered in their most hospitable way.

It is that serious. Should we be spending some time in the House of Commons talking about that and how we could quickly resolve it so we could be number one in the world, including the reserves? We certainly should be. Instead what are we talking about? We are talking about the Judges Act.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Canadian Alliance, Prince Albert, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I find my hon. colleague's comments very refreshing. I know he is very well respected in the community he comes from. He was the principal of a high school. I know how high school principals are selected where I come from and where he comes from. People from the community sit on committees. There is a hiring procedure. We spend a lot of time making sure we get the right people as our principals. They must be leaders in our schools and must convey the right kinds of values and beliefs.

Yesterday we talked about reforming and modernizing our system of government. In my view most of the power cards are held by somebody sitting in the front row over there. Even backbenchers do not have any power cards. When they are told to march, they march. When they are told to stand up they stand up.

If we really wanted to modernize this institution we could do it in one symbolic step. We could turn over the selection of supreme court judges to an all party committee. We could then sit down and review these individuals and pick people who we think have high standards of integrity and high levels of competency. As everyone has pointed out, there is no shortage of qualified applicants for these jobs.

However the way it is now all the power cards are in one person's hands and that person makes those decisions behind closed doors and without any consultation with any of us.

I would like to put a question to my colleague from Wild Rose on the possibility of having an all party committee look at the appointment of judges to our Supreme Court of Canada. Would he be of the view that this committee would be beneficial to this institution and change the public's attitude toward the way this House operates?

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Madam Speaker, yes, an all party committee is a good idea. We should spend some time talking about how we can form a committee that would select the judges in a process that makes sense, instead of patronage. Let us not talk any more about the Judges Act.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise on behalf of my constituents of Calgary East to talk to Bill C-12, the Judges Act.

I share my colleague's view. This is the second time that I have risen in the House to talk about the Judges Act, an act that only talks about raising the salaries and benefits of judges. We have heard over a period of time, both in Alberta and here, that independent commissions have been set up. We have also heard the judges say that they need more compensation so they can be independent and not fall under pressure.

[An hon. member]

So do we.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

I disagree with the hon. Liberal member when he says “so do we”.

However, the judges have used the reasoning that they will be subject to undue influence if they do not receive higher compensation. That was the reasoning for the 23%. In both cases, as the holders of the public purse, the government of Alberta and the Government of Canada at one time had tremendous difficulty agreeing to that level.

What this bill states is that one segment of our society feels that judges need to elevated to a level where there is no undue influence.

I believe almost all judges, especially the ones I know and have met, are people of high calibre and have high moral values, and people look to them to make fair judgments. However, when they say that their compensation should be at such a level that they will not be under undue influence, I think that is a contradiction. We put them there because of their high values. I hope we never have a situation in this country where a judge falls under undue influence just because there was no compensation. The compensation seems to be fairly adequate here.

The Alliance agrees that the compensation should be in line with the private sector. Even judges should get fair compensation, and nobody is saying they should not, but it should be done by an independent body, and this is not by an independent body.

That raises questions in the minds of Canadians. They look to the judges for respect, but when those kinds of arguments come forward, there is a slight loss of respect. Canadians are the ones who will end up in the courts to hear judgments. This issue is not the general trend in the economy nor is it the general trend in the community.

This raises the other questions of what is happening and what we should be debating here. Having said that, I think there are more important issues that need to be debated in the House than this bill.

I had a town hall meeting about a month ago in my riding. Close to 40 grandparents came to the town hall meeting to discuss an issue that was hurting them the most, the issue of grandparents' rights. As our society has moved forward, and tugs and pulls take place, marriages break down. At the end of the day, who pays? It is the grandparents who pay. They need attention. We need to address those kinds of issues, not this issue of judges' salaries.

For over six and a half years the government could not produce a Young Offenders Act. It keeps going on and on despite the hue and cry from the public. Every member over here has put forward petitions.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I am sure all hon. members would like to hear what the hon. member for Calgary East has to say, and, if not, there are other options available to members.