Debates of March 22nd, 2001

Judges Act

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, I am sure the people in the gallery, who have taken the time to come here, and those who are listening, would like to hear what I have to say. If those members on that side of the House do not want to listen, they are welcome to go out and do something productive.

Backbenchers and serious members of parliament are here to discuss issues that are important, issues that our constituents want to discuss. If all hon. members had town hall meetings they would find out what the people want, what is important to them and what issues they want brought before the House of Commons. We were elected to do that, not to heckle and create all this nonsense.

Let us talk for a second about the Young Offenders Act which has again not been brought into the House of Commons. It has been discussed and discussed, petition after petition has been presented to the House and Canadians have been talking about it, but the government has not brought it in because it has not had the courage to do so.

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Yesterday we had a debate in this place about the modernization of parliament. Members throughout the House commented and concurred that relevance was an important principle for the House to follow if we were to be efficient. With all due respect, the member is not addressing the provisions of the bill, but rather talking about why we should be doing other things other than the bill.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The hon. member raised a point of debate, I believe. I think that in most debates in the House the Chair has always shown a lot of latitude. We will now continue with debate from the member for Calgary East.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, I think that was just a ploy so that I could lose a couple of minutes. I hope you will allow me to add the couple of minutes that were wasted so I can tell the member that we are discussing serious issues in this place which are absolutely relevant to what we are talking about.

What we are saying is that we need to discuss important issues. Yes, yesterday's debate was an attempt to bring forward important issues because, under this government, important issues seem to have gone out of the window.

The government does not listen to members in committee. This bill does not even deal with the issue of bringing judges before a committee. It is all patronage and it starts from the PMO's office, which appoints the judges, the senators, the heads of corporations and many board members. This then creates a concentration of power in one place. We just have to look at the situation this afternoon in the House of Commons with respect to the Prime Minister's role in the golf club. This concentration of power can give rise to abuse of power.

I would like to talk for a moment on another subject. My name was selected to present a private member's bill that would address a very important issue that the government has totally neglected. It is the issue of break and enter or home invasion, a crime that has been rising across the country, according to statistics, and a violation of personal privacy.

If anyone wants to know what is happening with break and enter offenders, they need only ask any law enforcement officer or look at the records. Repeat break and enter offenders are receiving conditional or suspended sentences, which creates a cycle of break and enter offences. Why? The simple reason is that they know that if they are caught they will be brought up in front of a court and will probably be on the streets within three weeks to a month committing the same crime. Those who do not believe that should ask any law enforcement officer in their ridings. I request that all 301 members of parliament here talk to their law enforcement officers.

The Canadian Police Association and the Calgary Police Association have endorsed my private member's bill which calls for a minimum sentence of two years for repeat break and enter offenders. The idea is to take these people off the street and put them into a system where they can be rehabilitated. With my break and enter bill, we would be looking at assisting people and, at the same time, removing these habitual offenders off the streets.

Does anyone know what the current sentence is for break and enter? It is life imprisonment. However, we can forget about a life sentence because that is too far out. Most of these offenders get off with suspended or light sentences. That is the reason for the rise in crime. It also raises the concern that there will be more violence. It leads to home invasions, which have the potential of getting violent.

We need to address this issue. We cannot brush it under the carpet. We cannot say that our current legislation is going to meet this rising threat. I do not see the government addressing this issue in any way; hence, I brought in my private member's bill.

One issue that comes out of this bill is the appointment of judges, which I alluded to when I was making my remarks. I have mentioned the concentration of powers in the Prime Minister's Office. One of my colleagues asked this question as well. There is a need for serious consideration in regard to the appointment of judges. The question is whether the appointment of judges should be under one individual's hand, as it is now, or whether it should be under a committee, a committee made up of members of parliament. We can discuss the issues. We can discuss who can be on the committee. We can discuss who can look at the judges who are appointed and make recommendations for appointments and so on.

This brings transparency to the judiciary system and leads to more respect for the judiciary. It is extremely important that we have an independent judiciary system. There is no question about it. We have seen what happens around the world to the populaces of countries where independent judiciary systems do not exist. The populace pays the ultimate price.

No one will ever argue in a democracy that we need separation of powers between the legislation and the independence of the judiciary.

Where the problem arises is with the appointment of judges being done by the PMO, by one individual. What is so difficult about moving this to a committee to make it more transparent? I am sure the judges who are on the benches today would probably all be appointed again. That is fine. That is not the issue I am talking about. I am not talking about the competency of judges. I am talking about a process that should bring transparency. Why can we not have that? I fail to understand why we do not address that issue. We can. Maybe we should. Hopefully it will be on the agenda. This is a bill about judges.

There is a need for change in parliament. There is a need for us to address this and to talk about our constituents. It is true. Yesterday we had a debate on these issues. It is true that a lot of points came out, but are we going anywhere? The answer is no.

The throne speech talked about electronic voting. Great. Electronic voting is the great reform that will take place in this parliament. Give me a break. Is electronic voting why we come here? No. We come here to debate and to stand on votes so that our constituents can see what we are doing.

I have read reports saying that the government is backtracking on electronic voting now, after the hue and cry. I had the pleasure of meeting members of the German parliament who were visiting us and I asked them a question. As we all know, with the unification of Germany a new parliament has been built in Berlin. I asked the visitors for their views on electronic voting. They said no way to electronic voting. The committee that they set up to look at it has totally disregarded it. I asked them why. They said they want their ministers, the people who are in power, not to get it into their heads that they are above ordinary citizens. They said their ministers are part and parcel of the process and they want to see them stand up with them in their parliament. They felt that with electronic voting they would have less access to those in power. I thought about it and I agreed.

Of course a lot of my colleagues from the other side are now joining in the debate and are opposing the electronic voting notion. My friend on the other side is part of this thing and I am sure will join in the debate when he gets time to address this issue.

What is the relevance of what I am talking about? It is accountability. We are asking for transparency and accountability.

Here is an opportunity under Bill C-12 which could have addressed transparency and accountability of judges. However, I have been in committees and I have heard time after time from that side, from parliamentary secretaries and ministers, a reluctance to change. They have a total reluctance to change the system, to better it. We have all heard that change is for the better. We are now in the 21st century, yet this system is what was here 30 or 35 years ago. It is the same system with the same rules. There has been no change. Can we not move forward? Can we not learn? Can we not build on what we have learned?

However, there is this reluctance. Time after time, in the committees and everywhere, I have heard from that side that this is the way the system is and it is fine. Yet there are people asking questions.

This afternoon my colleague from the Conservative Party brought up a fantastic example of what is wrong with the system. It was a fantastic example of a job posting under the federal government, from someone supposedly representing Canada and the unity of Canada, the residence of the Governor General. At this point I must say that I have the highest respect for the Governor General and the comments I will make have absolutely nothing to do with Her Excellency, whom I hold in very high esteem. I am just talking about the process of the government.

Here is the Government of Canada advertising a job situation that is applicable only to a few Canadians. It bars everyone else. If that is not discrimination, what is? Why are we paying with the tax dollars of all Canadians for a job that is restricted for certain Canadians? If people inside this region want to apply and it is convenient for them, so be it. The job should be open to anyone. However, How can a job with a salary paid by taxpayer dollars be restricted to only certain Canadians? It boggles my mind.

We are in the 21st century. These are the issues that we need to debate and to talk about. This imbalance that keeps taking place eventually may become—and I hope never—the threat to our unity. We are all working hard to maintain our nation. As we all know, when we travel abroad we are all proud of the maple leaf. We are proud of what we have achieved and of what other people have achieved, including the immigrants who have come into the country, those who were born here and the first nations. We are proud of everything that has been built here, but there also comes a time to build better, and if we have seen errors, we should learn from them.

All I get from the other side is a total reluctance to change the procedure or change anything, even if it is glaringly in front of our eyes that it is wrong. That advertisement I mentioned was in front of everybody's eyes and was glaringly wrong, but who has the guts to stand up and admit it is wrong? The minister of the treasury today could not admit it was wrong or that she would look at it. She threw the blame on some other government out there in question period, but at no time did she say that she was going to address the issue, that here is a glaring example of what is wrong. When are we going to learn? When are we going to say that we need change? When can we adapt? When can we heal?

Perhaps these members sitting over there can start pondering it and talking about it. If the people over there do not listen, members can stand up in the House of Commons and talk about it. They can talk about what their constituents are saying and represent them properly. It is not only east or west in here. I do not represent only the west. I am here as a Canadian standing in the Canadian House of Commons. I am standing here as a Canadian. Issues of Canadians are being discussed here which are applicable to all Canadians across the nation.

When we see something like that, it makes us angry. When we see the government refusing to address the issues, then we are not proud. How is it possible that the ruling party, supposedly considered one of the most successful ruling parties of our time, as its members say themselves, had to set up a task force and send it to that region of the country to see what is wrong? There was a government that did not even know why people in one half of the country were upset. Why? Because that region has a smaller population, that is why. Those government members are supposed to represent Canada and the government sets up a task force and sends it out there to figure out what is wrong.

There is something amiss. Those individuals are supposed to be in government. Do we know why there is this problem? Because it is the reluctance to change the system that has been entrenched instead of the demand for change. The government members are reluctant to change, so they cannot pick up on the currents taking place in the other regions of the country. They cannot. Their ears are closed because the system allows their ears to be closed.

They sent that committee out there, and lo and behold, it was a joke. Even the members of the committee were not from that part of the region. I do not know what happened. What happened to the committee's report? I do not have a clue as to what happened to that committee. They are still talking about it.

Of course our nation has its great potential, but its great challenges is regionalism. There are challenges and regional challenges and aspirations and regional aspirations. That does not mean that we can stand in the way here.

In conclusion, when I am talking about the Judges Act, I am talking about transparency and I am talking about accountability.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Questions and comments. The hon. member for Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Madam Speaker, the member seemed to be at one point in his dissertation struggling with the subject matter. I thought for a moment that I should rise and suggest that he share his time with a Liberal. I would have been happy to have a speech of my own on this subject.

If the House and the member will indulge me, I would not mind a somewhat extensive comment to the speech he just gave and a comment that I hope he will answer. I have the bill before me and it is all about numbers. It is about remuneration. Page after page we see the bill describe how much judges should be paid and all that kind of thing. It looks very important.

I say to the member opposite that we are missing an opportunity in the legislation because there is an opportunity to do something in the bill, not only for judges, but for people.

I had occasion to be in Alberta a month and a half ago trying to get a line on the case that is before the Alberta courts involving Mr. Stephen Harper and the crown. It deals with a charter challenge of the Canada Elections Act pertaining to certain aspects of third party advertising that is in the current legislation.

I was amazed to discover that I could not get court transcripts. What has happened in Alberta and many other jurisdictions is that the courts and the government have farmed out the taking of trial transcripts to private firms that record the actual verbatim testimony. A citizen, or even somebody who is a defendant at the trial, has to then purchase page by page the transcripts which can run into many thousands of pages.

What that does is make it impossible for the ordinary citizen, much less the person who is the defendant in the case, to have access to the deliberations of that particular court. This becomes very important when it is a charter challenge because something like that is of interest and of importance to every Canadian. Not only do we have to purchase it, but we cannot get it through the normal means.

I would have thought, and I would like the member to comment on this, that we in the House should be very concerned about the lack of transparency and the lack of opportunity of ordinary Canadians to know what is going on in the courts, issues that concern charter challenges, or any other case before the courts that has a wide public interest.

I would have thought that it would have been incumbent upon governments and indeed incumbent upon the courts to not only make the transcripts publicly available for free but to put them on the Internet, so Canadians can follow these very important deliberations. What I found out was that I could not gain access to the transcripts without paying for them page by page.

While I am probably a little bit more affluent than the average Canadian, at $1,000 a shot, it was not something I was prepared to do. I point out that this is not even an expense that is covered by the House. If I want to see the transcripts, it would appear that I would have to pay for them out of my own pocket. This is a situation that I do not believe is good for the country.

I cited a case in Alberta but I believe it is the same situation in Ontario and other jurisdictions. I suggest to the member opposite that if we really want to do something that is important for the public, we should be pressuring the government to add an amendment to the bill, phrase it so that it would require courts to take transcripts of the testimony and make the transcripts available to the public, not only for free, but also available on the Internet, so that all Canadians can be engaged in the kind of important debates that occur in the courts when someone like Mr. Stephen Harper decides to challenge the crown on something like the Canada Elections Act and makes it a charter challenge.

This is something that every Canadian should be engaged in and be able to follow. The only answer to that is to make all court transcripts available to the public for free.

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, in my speech I asked members to talk about what their constituents want. I am happy someone took the bait.

On the issue of the member's experience in Alberta, one can relate to the fact that it was a provincial code and therefore the requirement of the province, and we are federal.

I will not speak to that issue but I will speak to the very important issue the member raised about transparency and accountability. The whole point of my speech was accountability and transparency in the bill in reference to our federal jurisdiction, which is judges and the appointment of judges.

The question that he asked was about transcripts being made available for free. That is an issue that should be visited. I agree with him that transparency is very important. In our code system transparency is something that will bring confidence. That is what we need to retain in our court system. That is something that needs to be discussed, and I am glad the member raised the point.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, we have seen other judges acts over the last four years since 1998. In 1996 we saw a Judges Act, the name or number of which I am not familiar with right now, but there have been four such bills. As we go through the bill, it is all about compensation. There are probably 10 or 15 pages on annuity scheduling.

The bill gives judges close to a 12% raise. In 1998 they had an 8.3% raise. The salaries of judges are indexed yearly. Could the member enlighten us a little more on remuneration? When we look at different sectors of criminal justice we see that in 1998 and prior the Royal Canadian Mounted Police had its wages frozen for five years. For five years the police forces had their wages frozen.

Then in March 1998 they were awarded a 3% increase, retroactive to January 1. In April they received another 1% and later on in October, three-quarters of 1%. Over the past six, seven and eight years, our police forces have seen marginal salary increases of up to 4% or 5%.

Are we seeing a higher level of concern or importance respecting the remuneration of higher levels of the public service? We have seen close to a 26% increase over the last few years when we factor in the indexing. I wonder if it is a higher level than other public sector employees are receiving. Why is it that the government seems to be paying such close attention to high level public servants when frontline police forces are seeing such nominal pay increases? Could the member enlighten us on that a little?

[Deepak Obhrai, Canadian Alliance, Calgary East, AB]

Madam Speaker, what the member is saying is that the general public pay raises are correspondingly much less than those of privileged positions in society. Lawyers and judges have access to people in power. Therefore they can articulate the need for higher wages for themselves.

As I stated, they are saying that higher wages are needed so that they are not under undue pressure. One could have used the same argument for the police, the ones upholding the law. They should be getting higher salaries so that they are not under pressure as well. That also applies to prison guards and others. The argument could be applied to ordinary Canadians working on the frontlines. I agree with my colleagues. That is why we are debating these issues and that is why the Alliance and many of us are raising them. We are not judge bashing, let me be very clear about that.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-12. It is a bill that is somewhat technical in nature having to do with compensation for judges.

Many of my colleagues have explained the remuneration part of the bill in terms of the issues we have with the bill. I will focus a bit on one part of that and then I will talk a bit about judicial activism. I will make reference to a creation of the bill, having to do with the ability of the government to appoint individuals, thereby having another outlet for some possible patronage jobs being created. I will also talk about some local issues happening in Dewdney—Alouette.

The bill deals with about 1,000 individuals, those who are federally appointed judges. As my colleagues from the Alliance have pointed out, there have been several increases over the last number of years for individuals serving in this important position.

At the same time there have not been the same kinds of significant increases for those law enforcement agents and guards in our prison system that are on the frontlines providing good service, protection and security for our citizens. My colleague from Wild Rose touched on this issue and my colleague from Crowfoot just asked a very good question about it. It is something that needs to be raised.

We realize that the government does not have an endless supply of dollars. It is actually taxpayer dollars held in trust by the government. The government is called upon to use those hard earned tax dollars in a wise way. We have pointed out over the last number of months and years in this place some areas where the government could do better in managing taxpayer dollars.

We have explored lots of opportunities for the government to look at its expenditures to see where it could save some dollars in wasteful spending, such as the areas having to do with the now infamous billion dollar boondoggle. We have not heard that word for a while, so I thought I would throw it in. There is also the file on Shawinigan, Shawinigate.

We have explored those areas and approximately $13 billion is allocated from the government to grants and contributions across government departments. We have become very aware, because of what happened in human resources development, of how the money is allocated. Some work needs to be done in all government departments in terms of how they are using their resources and their dollars.

If what is happening in the area of human resources is indicative of how the government is managing the hard earned tax dollars of our citizens in all departments, there is cause for concern. There is a possible pool of taxpayer dollars held in trust by the government that could be used for law enforcement, providing the resources the RCMP needs to do the job of fighting organized crime on the frontlines.

Police officers from across the country came to speak to us this week. Officers who have been working on the frontlines in our communities told us what has been happening and how they feel limited in what they can do because of their lack of resources.

It is incumbent upon us to provide law enforcement officers with the proper compensation and the proper resources to be able to do their job properly. As has been raised by other colleagues as well, we know that those individuals the government and the police forces are fighting have an unlimited pool of capital.

Our forces must be equipped to combat those kinds of activities, which cause so much harm to our communities and to the safety of our country. That is something we need to touch on here in the debate today.

Part of Bill C-12 allows for the creation of the judicial compensation and benefits commission. As I indicated in my opening remarks, this provides the government yet another opportunity to make patronage appointments.

There are a couple of appointments about which I and many of my constituents have questions. We are not saying all individuals appointed by the Liberal government fall into this category. However there needs to be a higher degree of accountability and scrutiny of individuals appointed to important positions by the government.

A former colleague in this place, Lou Sekora, the former member for Coquitlam, was recently appointed by the government. He was given a patronage position as a citizenship judge. It was a bit alarming because in the history of his dealings in the House, he often acted in a very partisan manner and resorted to name calling in regard to racial comments, comments which were recorded in Hansard . He even made such comments in his own community after he was defeated in the election.

Despite that, he was appointed a citizenship judge. It does not make sense that he was chosen for that job based on his prior experiences, performance or public record of having said things that were in many ways inflammatory to the issue of new citizens and immigrants. That is an example of an appointment that needed more scrutiny and that the government was remiss in making.

Many other positions could have been chosen. The government showed a lack of sensitivity in putting that individual in that position. The opportunity to scrutinize such appointments is provided for in this part of the bill.

We have had debates in the House in the last couple days about related issues having to do with the minister for multiculturalism and her circumstance. I will not go into detail on that. It is on the record and it is circulating out there.

When there is a lack of sensitivity on important issues like this, we must look at the actions and deeds rather than just the words of individuals. That is a cause of concern for us.

We are attempting to work together with members of parliament from all parties to build alliances and common ground on all kinds of issues. A committee has just been struck on parliamentary reform. That was an idea brought forward by the government House leader and other members of parliament, and I think it was a good one. It is time for some changes.

Signalling an intention to work well with each other is a good thing. The government can demonstrate that intention through its actions. In the case of the minister for multiculturalism, the government could show its good will by taking action regarding the minister for what transpired in the last couple of days.

I will move now to the whole notion of judicial activism and how it has evolved in the last several years through the way the government has handled particular issues. There are many sensitive issues in the public domain, ones the government might hesitate in approaching when they bring forward legislation.

We had the supreme court decision on child pornography. We are well aware that the Alliance brought forward a motion and that about 63 government members wrote a letter to the Prime Minister asking him to use the notwithstanding clause. When that vote happened they did not support it.

The supreme court took about 18 months to rule on that decision, and we support the decision made by the court. However there was a window of 18 months where the government had an opportunity to act and did not.

During that time the government's lack of action resulted in specific activity in British Columbia and across the country that was not beneficial for children. It provided those who would be involved in the child pornography industry the opportunity to do so. It sent a message to—

[Paul Szabo, Liberal, Mississauga South, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I would again raise with the Chair the issue of relevance in this place to ensure that members restrict their comments to the bill before the House. This is not a matter of debate but rather of order.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The hon. member has raised this point of order before. I did state very clearly that there is a lot of latitude given by the Chair in terms of the content of speeches. Obviously hon. members must respect the debate before the House. It is Bill C-12 we are discussing.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I did outline in my opening that I wanted to talk about the issue. Obviously it is related to the bill before us. I talked about the part of the bill having to do with the Judicial Compensation and Benefits Commission that allows the government the opportunity to provide patronage appointments.

I talked briefly about judicial activism. I will wrap up my comments on that part of my speech in relation to judges and the justice system. When the bill goes forward it will go to the justice committee where it will take up a fair bit of time. We must question what other issues might be brought forward by the government in relation to justice issues.

I will talk about a few issues that affect communities in my riding. Mike Potter, head of the chamber of commerce in Maple Ridge and Pitt Meadows, is bringing forth some proactive solutions to combating crime, particularly among businesses in the community that have been hit hard. That is a noble cause. He is working hard with Helen Secco, also of the chamber of commerce, to develop a strategy in which the community can come together to stop crime from happening.

Vandalism is causing a great deal of harm to local businesses in Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge, and that is of great concern to business owners who are the backbone of the local economy.

Some of their initiatives are to be applauded. They recently had a forum in Maple Ridge regarding the issue. Those kinds of crimes are on the increase, which is unfortunate. That is why the community is looking for proactive solutions.

There is also a crime prevention priority session coming up in Mission. People in that community are getting together to try to find a way to solve issues of crime in the community. That also is to be applauded. Those citizens are coming forward to work together to address important issues of safety in their community. That is a good thing and it should be applauded.

I do know that in debate on the bill we have covered in great detail the compensation of judges. I started my speech on that topic. As my colleagues noted, we have concerns that the government is not putting the same priority forward with individuals of our front line law enforcement communities.

I will now conclude. I know the government House leader is hanging on my every word as time draws short in the day. This is, of course, an important issue. I will conclude by focusing on the people of Dewdney—Alouette because they are, of course, the people who sent me here. I applaud their proactive efforts to provide safety in their community. I will wrap up my comments by wishing them well in all their endeavours and saying that I look forward to working with them on those important issues.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Madam Speaker, I raised this on questions and comments a little earlier, and I wish to put on the record that the cost of the transcripts that I was referring to from the Alberta court was $2.20 a page. I was unable to get these transcripts. I was unable to get them except by either paying the $2.20 a page or, in my case, I was lucky enough that I could go across the road and look at the transcripts in the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice could not release the transcripts because, as they were prepared by a private firm, the private firm was entitled to, by copyright according to the Department of Justice, to require that the transcripts could not be released.

They were in six boxes of thousands of pages apiece, and binders. The point I wish to make, regardless that this debate has to go on a little longer than perhaps intended, is that no one in the general public would be able to afford to see those transcripts. I was able to see the transcripts solely because I happen to live here in Ottawa, I happen to be a member of parliament and I was able to access them because the Department of Justice was the defendant in this particular case.

This is a trial involving a charter issue which is of concern to every Canadian. In order for an ordinary Canadian to access those transcripts, that ordinary Canadian would probably have had to pay something like $6,000 or $8,000.

I see the members opposite are laughing at that. They are so, so concerned about judiciary remuneration that they do not pay attention to the fact that ordinary Canadians cannot access the debates that are leading ultimately to the very judicial activism that they complain about.

I do not want to actually prolong the debate with a speech of my own, although I would be delighted to under normal circumstances. I would suggest to you, Madam Speaker, that in fact the thing that we should be really concerned about is not only making these transcripts available that are so important in criminal cases, as well as in civil cases and even in human rights tribunals, we still have to pay for the transcripts because private firms prepare them.

I would only say this. I hope that the members opposite would consider this as a very important issue that is just as important as the remuneration of judges, the public access to court transcripts, and put it indeed on the Internet just as our Debates are put on the Internet. I am sure the members opposite would agree that this would be a very fine thing to recommend.

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I heard the question earlier that the hon. member had asked. He knows that it is a provincial matter. I have individuals coming into my constituency office asking me the exact same questions. This brings to mind the same dilemma members of parliament are faced with in terms of getting information from the government.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

It being 5.30 the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. In an effort to be helpful to the House, I wonder if the House would consent to putting the question prior to going into private members' business.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Does the House give its consent?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[An hon. member]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Grant McNally, Canadian Alliance, Dewdney—Alouette, BC]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The House leader asked for unanimous consent that the question be put. If you check the record you will find that consent was not given for the motion to be put because the clock being 5.30, debate has ended.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The Chair did not hear a no when I asked for unanimous consent. I will ask for unanimous consent again. Is there unanimous consent to put the question?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.