House of Commons Hansard #37 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was americas.

Topics

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

The Speaker

There are 14 motions in amendment standing on the notice paper relating to the report stage of Bill C-8.

The Standing Committee on Finance considered this bill at clause by clause on March 20, before my statement outlining the guidelines for the selection of motions at report stage.

Since hon. members could not be aware at that time of the new way to implement those principles, the Chair will once again be generous and select motions which could have been proposed in committee but were not.

May I remind all hon. members to use committee stage to propose their amendments. If hon. members do not avail themselves of this opportunity, the Chair will not select motions which could have been proposed in committee at report stage.

The motions will be grouped for debate as follows.

Group No. 1: Motions Nos. 1, 8, 12 and 13.

Group No. 2: Motions No. 2, 9 to 11 and 14.

Group No. 3: Motions Nos. 3 to 7.

The voting patterns for the motions within each group are available at the table. The Chair will remind the House of each pattern at the time of voting.

I will now put Motions Nos. 1, 8, 12 and 13 to the House.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

moved:

Motion No. 1

That Bill C-8, in Clause 5, be amended by replacing lines 14 to 16 on page 5 with the following:

“and report, subject to section 17, to the House of Commons from time to time on all matters connected with the administration of this Act, which stands permanently referred to the Standing Committee on Finance, and of the consumer provisions”

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

moved:

Motion No. 8

That Bill C-8, in Clause 84, be amended by replacing line 27 on page 39 with the following:

“made.

(4) Except in the case where an amalgamation is the result of one or more of the applicants not being financially sound, an amalgamation must be approved by a resolution of the House of Commons supported by a majority of the members of that House and a resolution of the Senate supported by a majority of the members of that House.”

Motion No. 12

That Bill C-8, in Clause 183, be amended by adding after line 44 on page 367 the following:

“978.1 On the expiration of one year after the coming into force of this Act, and on the expiration of every year thereafter, all regulations made in the previous year by the Governor in Council under this Act shall stand referred to such committee of the House of Commons, of the Senate or of both Houses of Parliament as may be designated or established for that purpose and the committee shall, as soon as practicable thereafter, undertake a comprehensive review of such regulations and shall, within one month after the review is undertaken or within such further time as the House of Commons may authorize, submit a report thereon to Parliament including any recommendations pertaining to the object, impact or necessity of such regulations or any other aspects thereof that the committee deems appropriate.”

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:10 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Dick Harris Canadian Alliance Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC

moved:

Motion No. 13

That Bill C-8, in Clause 244, be amended by replacing line 9 on page 408 with the following:

“effect of the designation. The Minister must also provide in writing: a ) a statement of the reasons why, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest to designate a payment system; b ) the process by which consultation of the manager, the participants, and other interested parties who could be affected by the designation can take place, including how the Minister's concerns can be addressed; c ) a statement to the effect that where a system fails to adequately address a Minister's concerns, the Governor in Council may designate a payment system.”

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House on behalf of the Canadian Alliance Party to speak to Bill C-8 and in particular to the motions we put forward at report stage.

Motion No. 1 deals with a clause in the original bill that would require, upon the setting up and operation of the financial consumer agency, the commissioner of the agency to report its activities to parliament through the Minister of Finance.

We have stood in the House on many occasions calling for the independent arms of government agencies and commissions to report not through a minister but directly to parliament, and in this case to the Standing Committee on Finance. The motion reflects that an amendment be put that would require Financial Consumer Agency of Canada to report to the Standing Committee on Finance on a permanent basis.

Motion No. 13 deals with the operation of Interac services. The bill calls for the association to report every rule change during the normal course of operation to the Minister of Finance. This is an onerous demand. We would make an amendment that would give the Interac Association a very clear and transparent framework to operate under that is self-regulating. Its compliance people would have a very clear understanding of what is required of them by the Minister of Finance.

The motion would require that the Minister of Finance provide:

(a) a statement of the reasons why, in the opinion of the Minister, it is in the public interest to designate a payment system;

(b) the process by which consultation of the manager, the participants, and other interested parties who could be affected by the designation can take place, including how the Minister's concerns can be addressed;

(c) a statement to the effect that where a system fails to adequately address a Minister's concerns, the Governor in Council may designate a payment system.

The broad, transparent and clear framework included in the bill by the Minister of Finance would be sufficient for the association to conduct its normal day to day business transactions. It would not burden it with a requirement to report and discuss every rule change so long as it was operating within the broad framework.

That is what I wanted to say as far as the motions put forward from the Canadian Alliance in Group No. 1. Overall it is a progressive bill. While we criticize the government for being tardy on it, we are happy with the bill. It is bringing Canada's banking system to a more progressive stage so that we can compete with our competition around the world.

I ask government members to see the prudence and the common sense in these amendments and I am sure they will support them.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:15 a.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Mr. Speaker, Group No. 1 deals with Motion Nos. 1, 8, 12 and 13. Two of them are in my name and I wish to say a couple of words about them.

Motion No. 2 deals with the powers of the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada. The bill is a very complicated piece of legislation dealing with financial institutions. It is 900 pages thick and affects about 1,400 pages of statutes. It is perhaps the most complicated bill ever debated in the House of Commons as one particular bill.

In addition to the bill and the statutes that will be changed, much of what will happen will be through regulation by the federal government. The regulations are extremely important in terms of the purport and the effect of the legislation on the ordinary person living in Halifax or in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan.

We should do a number of things to improve the legislation before the House today. I would suggest one very small thing that can be found in one of my motions. The powers of the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada should be enhanced in terms of penalizing corporations that actually violate the new law. Under the present regulation it is suggested that an individual would be charged up to $50,000 if there is a violation and a financial institution would be charged $100,000.

My amendment would change the maximum penalty ceiling for corporations from $100,000 to $500,000. Some may ask why $500,000. It is because $500,000 was originally suggested by the Liberal Party in one of its white papers a year or so ago. This is not a very dangerous amendment. It is something that could be supported by the House and is perfectly reasonable in terms of a penalty.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Perhaps I am too late. The hon. member was speaking to a motion that is not presently before us since we are still dealing with Group No. 1. The motion he is speaking to is in Group No. 2. However, I believe he was just moving on to the next one so I am too late.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:20 a.m.

NDP

Lorne Nystrom NDP Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK

Madam Speaker, that is why I was speaking in generalities about improving the powers of that financial agency. Motion No. 8, which is part of the first grouping, would speak directly to parliament through a democracy.

If there is a bank merger, under the current legislation the Minister of Finance would have the final say. That is the way it is today. The Minister of Finance has the final say. My amendment would, except in the case of insolvency, give the Parliament of Canada the final say. There would be a vote in parliament on whether or not a bank merger would go ahead. That is not very radical, but bank mergers could potentially be extremely important items on the public agenda or in terms of public policy.

We remember how in January 1998 four of the large banks wanted to merge: the Bank of Montreal, Royal Bank, TD and Scotiabank. We had a great debate on the matter. I am proud to say that our party at the beginning was very much opposed to these mergers, arguing that they would not help consumers and that they would concentrate more power into fewer hands in terms of financial institutions. I remember people saying that there was no use in fighting the large banks as they were powerful and would win. However, we led that opposition and within a year or so there was a lot of opposition across the country and in December 1998 the Minister of Finance said no to the merger of those four large banks.

As a result we now have a new mechanism in Bill C-8 before us today. Instead of democratizing the process and making parliament more meaningful in terms of the power MPs have to speak on behalf of their constituents, the Minister of Finance will have the final say as to whether or not a merger goes ahead.

We are saying in our amendment that a resolution of parliament should be the final say. We should vote yes or no. It would expand and empower the role of members of parliament so that someone from Nova Scotia, Manitoba, Quebec, Ontario, or anywhere in the country would have the final say in terms of the debate and the argument as to whether or not a merger is in the public good. We would decide if it is good for the country, if it will help consumers, or if it is good for rural Canada or different parts of Canada where mergers are to take place. The power should not reside in the hands of one minister, the Minister of Finance.

Madam Speaker, please try to divorce yourself from the idea that we will have the Minister of Finance for all time. This minister and the next minister may or may not make the proper decision. We should not leave that power in the hands of the Minister of Finance.

This is part of parliamentary democracy. It is part of democratic and parliamentary reform. It is part of empowering this place to be more meaningful and relevant to Canadians. When we see the alienation from this parliament and we see fewer people casting their ballots, it makes us wonder why we do not empower ourselves and make this institution more meaningful.

The House of Commons has to be a check and a balance on the powers of the executive and cabinet. Why do we not do that as members of parliament?

If members across the way voted for the motion, it would not be a vote of non-confidence in the government. In the case of a merger, unless there is an insolvency, parliament would have the final say. In the case of an insolvency the Minister of Finance would have the power to make that decision and make it very quickly. If the process is established under the bill, and this item is on the public agenda, then why would the Parliament of Canada not have the final say instead of the Minister of Finance?

My motion is a timid little step in the direction of parliamentary reform and parliamentary democracy and would make this place more relevant and meaningful. I hope members across the way will see this as an opportunity to bring in parliamentary reform and bring back more democracy to make this place more meaningful and more important in the lives of the average citizen.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Bloc

Yvan Loubier Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC

Madam Speaker, I will start by informing you that we support some of the amendments made by the Canadian Alliance, in particular Motion No.1 by the hon. member for Prince George—Bulkley Valley relating to accountability to parliament and to a report on the administration of the act being provided to parliament from time to time.

Having gone carefully through the banking bill on more than one occasion, and before that the white paper from the Minister of Finance, following up on the MacKay-Ducros report, I noted that, for perhaps the first time in a piece of legislation of this significance, the Minister of Finance had incredible discretionary powers.

Hon. members need only give this bill a cursory examination to see, every ten pages or so, that the minister can intervene to make decisions. These decisions are at his discretion. His discretionary powers are such as have never been seen before. Thus, Motion No. 1 by my colleague for Prince George—Bulkley Valley is a marked improvement over what we had before.

Throughout the entire process, I will have the opportunity to touch back on this important aspect of ministerial discretion as opposed to what we ought to find in a bill, which is enhanced parliamentary responsibility and better monitoring of decisions taken by the minister or the governor in council.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Etobicoke North Ontario

Liberal

Roy Cullen LiberalParliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance

Madam Speaker, I seek clarification. Will we be debating group by group? It seems to me that we missed one motion in Group No. 1, did we not? Was Motion No. 12 presented by the member?

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

We are dealing with Motions Nos. 1, 8, 12 and 13. If I am not mistaken, the hon. member for Regina—Qu'Appelle addressed Motions Nos. 8 and 12.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON

Madam Speaker, I will be speaking to Group No. 1. I take this opportunity to thank the members of the House of Commons finance committee for their constructive approach to this very important and very massive legislation.

I would like to comment on Alliance Motion No. 1 which deals with the reporting of the financial consumer agency.

I would point out that under Bill C-8, the Minister of Finance is responsible for the financial consumer agency of Canada. Reporting arrangements have been specified which would allow the minister to appropriately monitor the activities of the agency.

However, the bill currently contains a provision that ensures that the consumer agency will be fully accountable to parliament. In particular, clause 34 of the bill requires the minister to annually lay before each House of parliament a report showing the operations of the agency for that year and describing in aggregate form its conclusions of the compliance of financial institutions with the consumer provisions. The financial consumer agency of Canada accountability structure and government reporting requirements mirror those that are currently in place for OSFI.

The second motion in this group from the Alliance, Motion No. 13, deals with the Canadian payments system. The process for designating a payment system in the proposed legislation is very extensive and would require the minister to consult with payment system managers and participants before notification of designation.

It is not necessary to detail in legislation, as proposed in Motion No. 13, process issues that would likely be part of any consultation. It is likely that the minister would outline the public interest reasons for the possible designation during the consultative period. It is possible, but if the payment system manager and participants addressed the concerns of the minister, there would not be a need to designate.

I will go now to the motions presented by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle, the NDP finance critic. Motion No. 8 concerns itself with bank mergers. I should make it absolutely clear to the House that the government recognizes the importance of the role that parliament can play in assessing the public interest impact of bank mergers in Canada.

That is why the merger review guidelines include referral to both the House finance committee and the Senate banking committee. Through the reports of these committees to the Minister of Finance, the views of parliament would be considered in reviews of large bank mergers in Canada. The report of the finance committee would be presented to the House of Commons.

The Minister of Finance, however, is ultimately responsible for the safety, soundness and efficient functioning of the financial sector in Canada. The ultimate decision regarding whether a merger is approved or not needs to rest with the Minister of Finance and should not be conditional on approval by a resolution in parliament.

Furthermore, the proposed change could seriously undermine the safety and soundness of the financial services sector. Since mergers involving troubled institutions would not require the special resolution, this would signal to Canadians that at least one of the banks involved is in financial trouble. This could lead to a run on either one or both of the institutions, which in turn could seriously undermine the public's confidence in the financial services sector and the payment system.

I will now go to Group No. 1, Motion No. 12, from the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle. The motion deals with adding a new clause that would require any regulations made under the new bill in a calendar year to be referred to a committee of the House, the Senate or both for a comprehensive review.

As members are aware, Bill C-8 is a significant legislative initiative that sets out in comprehensive detail the key policy framework announced in the government's June 25, 1999 white paper. Within this framework, there are authorities to provide flexibility to specify elements of the new regime in regulations. Any regulations proposed under this framework would be subject to the same rigorous oversight process that applies to regulations proposed under any other federal statutes.

The Privy Council Office will review the regulation to ensure that it is consistent with the objectives of the legislation and interested stakeholders will be given an opportunity to comment on the proposed changes.

A key component of this regulatory flexibility is that it allows the government to respond to rapid changes in the industry in a more timely way than might be allowed by a five year review of the legislation. The motion, as proposed, would negatively impact on this flexibility.

A yearly review of the regulations would create uncertainty for the industry as to any changes proposed by the government in a particular area. To the extent that the review created delays, the proposed motion could lead to regulatory initiatives not being completed in a more timely way than a full fledged legislative amendment. For this reason, the government does not support this proposed change.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill C-8, a massive bill, as has been mentioned. It is a bill which, when I hold it in my hands, increases my weight by about 10%.

When we look at the proposed amendments in Group No. 1, we see that they are there to improve the bill. I will speak specifically to Motion No. 1 right now, put forward by my colleague, which deals with the reporting section. The parliamentary secretary just stated that there is a provision in the bill for this. For clarity, I will read from page 15 under “Annual Report”. It states:

The Minister shall cause to be laid before each House of Parliament, not later than the fifth sitting day of that House after September 30 next following the end of each fiscal year, a report showing the operations of the Agency for that year and describing in aggregate form its conclusions on the compliance of financial institutions with the consumer provisions applicable to them in that year.

Do members notice who is reporting? It is the minister. The minister shall lay a report on the table. Of course the minister can say exactly what he or she wants. It is reported in the House and we all know what happens to reports. Routine proceedings take place every day in the House and someone presents a report under the tabling of documents. Under one of those proceedings, the minister could simply table a report showing the operations of the agency.

Motion No. 1 is really quite different. It is difficult by reasoned debate to persuade the members on the other side of the House because I am not sure they are listening. If they are listening, they do not show it by their body language. All we see is a bunch of green foreheads over there that are not really—

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

As the hon. member knows, since he has been in the House for quite a while now, the hon. members in the House are to be addressed with respect. I caution him to perhaps change the words he just used or to excuse himself, if he wishes.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:35 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

My apologies, Madam Speaker. I was simply urging the members opposite to listen carefully and perhaps even to consider voting in favour of the amendments that have been put forward.

I will digress for a second. A motion was passed by a majority not long ago that said that amendments at report stage in the House were not to be received by the Speaker. Then there were some really broad, sweeping statements made. The fact is that when we make amendments in committee, they are voted down by the majority in the committee before they have been given serious thought. I am contending that amendments made in the House often get no serious thought. I think it is time that we change that.

I would like members to seriously consider and support Motion No. 1 put forward by my colleague. Instead of the minister giving a report in the House, Motion No. 1 states that the report should go to the House of Commons:

—on all matters connected with the administration of this Act, which stands permanently referred to the Standing Committee on Finance, and of the consumer provisions.

We are dealing with a balance. Banks have tremendous power but we need them. They are an important component of the engine of our financial well-being and our economic development. However we need a balance between their powers and provisions and the protection of individuals, small businesses and others. We say that the report should automatically be referred to the finance committee and to the House of Commons and not just simply be a report tabled by the minister. I would urge members to seriously consider supporting that.

I will now make reference to Motion No. 13 put forward by my colleague, which deals with the designation of payment system. Someone might read Hansard somewhere down the road, or may be listening on television or perchance listening in the gallery today, who does not even know what the payment system is. The fact is that we have huge numbers of financial transactions every day ranging from mega corporations transferring millions and sometimes billions of dollars, down to an individual using a credit card to make a purchase of a couple of small items at the drug store.

We have a payment system that is the communications link between all our financial institutions. When I write a cheque drawn on the credit union to which I belong and it is processed by someone who deposits it in one of the banks, there has to be a communications system. The government, rightly, has the authority to designate the payment system. Motion No. 13 suggests that the minister must provide in writing the rationale for either declaring a payment system valid or not.

I will read subclause 37(3) of the bill on page 408. It states:

Before a payment system is designated, the Minister shall consult the manager and the participants of the payment system and may consult interested parties, with respect to the effect of the designation.

It says “may consult”, not have to, anybody who is affected. The provision of Motion No. 13 would strengthen this and would require the minister to do the work much more thoroughly. The motion says:

—the process by which consultation of the manager, the participants, and other interested parties who could be affected by the designation can take place, including how the Minister's concerns can be addressed;

There is a strengthening of that. I would again ask members opposite to give some heed to the actual wording of this particular amendment. It is a good amendment because it strengthens the relationship between the banks and the people who use their services. It shows an accountability which exceeds just simply a minister being able to do pretty well anything he wants with a consultation which me may or may not use.

I would like to comment on the motions put forward by the member for Regina—Qu'Appelle in Group No. 1. My present inclination is to be oppose his motions on a rational basis. Quite clearly we have very few banks in Canada. If I read his amendments correctly, they say that amalgamations should be approved by parliament.

It is probably true that we have five maybe six major banks in Canada right now. It is foreseeable that some of them may try to merge their operations for whatever reason, but I will not go into those. We know we went through an exercise like that not long ago. It is reasonable to expect that this could occur again. The member is proposing that it should be approved by the House of Commons and by the Senate. That is what his amendment basically says.

I suppose one could not be opposed to that if we were looking at one or two occurrences. However there are hundreds of smaller financial institutions around the country. I think we would probably err if each of those would come before the House every time a little outfit in one town wanted to amalgamate and merge with another one in a neighbouring town to strengthen their position. It is not clear in the amendment that the member would exclude many of these.

My inclination is not to favour that amendment for the reason that these things could be held up interminably waiting for a parliamentary calendar which would permit us to deal with them. That would be my primary objection but in principle it is correct. It is in the House where presumably members of parliament have the voice to represent the needs of the people who are dealing with the banks.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:45 a.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Madam Speaker, since this is the first time I have addressed the House during this parliament, I am sure that you will permit me a small aside.

I wish to thank the 50% of the voters in the lovely riding of Rivière-des-Mille-Îles who voted for me in the last election and to assure the other 50% who did not that I am still their MP and I will represent everyone in my riding, regardless of how they cast their ballot.

Second, I especially wish to thank the volunteers, who played a big role in my getting elected, as you know from your own personal experience, Madam Speaker. It is thanks to the work of your volunteers and mine, who worked their hearts out, that we have a seat in this House.

Third, I wish to welcome the new recruits, particularly my friend, the member for Châteauguay. He will find the House a place of wonderful experiences.

Fourth, I would ask you to pass on a message to the Speaker and to all your colleagues who were elected and appointed. I am certain that you will do a splendid, non-partisan job, and that you will ensure that we pay careful attention to the rules and procedures under which we must operate. Madam Speaker, I thank you in advance for the work you will do.

Now for the main topic. As everyone knows, I rise this morning to address Bill C-8, an act to establish the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada and to amend certain acts in relation to financial institutions.

I will begin by giving a brief background to the bill. It will be recalled that the MacKay report was tabled in 1998. My colleague, the member for Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, was a key player, suggesting some interesting amendments.

However, although we supported Bill C-38 in theory, subject to certain amendments, there was an exchange of correspondence with Quebec's then finance minister, Bernard Landry, who is now, as everyone knows, Premier of Quebec.

However, this exchange of correspondence between the Quebec minister of finance of the day and the federal Minister of Finance went nowhere. Fortunately, Bill C-38 died on the order paper because of the call of the precipitous election in November, for wich most Canadians still doubt.

Here we are this morning debating Bill C-8, which replaces C-38. Basically, the Bloc Quebecois can live with it, so long as a number of amendments are made. We have noticed in the new C-8, which is almost identical to C-38, that a number of changes have been made as the necessary result of the exchange of correspondence between the two finance ministers.

However, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth, since the concerns of the Quebec finance minister of the day, Bernard Landry, are not included in the bill. They are, rather, included in a schedule setting out guidelines for the reclassification of the banks, which had been in schedule 1 previously and whose owner's equity was less than $5 billion.

With regard to this schedule, the Bloc Quebecois has some concerns, since the schedule provides that:

—the Minister of Finance, in his sole decision, shall take into consideration, before permitting an exchange or the sale of one bank to another, the security and solidity of the bank, the direct and indirect jobs, the location of the decision-making centre and the management of the bank, the needs of consumers, the banks business and activities and the banks prospects for the future in the context of world markets.

The six points I have just outlined are just wishful thinking, since the bill would allow the current Minister of Finance, who, I believe, owns a shipping company, has adopted the practice since, of being the only master on board, like the ship's captain, when decisions are to be made. So, the minister has all the powers to ignore these six points without us being able to say or do anything about it.

Bill C-8 is much too important to allow a single individual, a single captain, that is the Minister of Finance himself, make the decisions about any changes to this legislation. This is very close to dictatorship. It is also dangerous considering that the government opposite has a great tendency to engage in cronyism and take care of its friends. We should be careful.

I strongly suggest that the final decisions be made by parliamentarians. We are here to make decisions. We are not decorating plants, we must make decisions. We must really be careful.

Another issue that is of concern to me and certainly to my friend, the hon. member for Drummond, is that the bill is three tiered with the possibility for an individual to own a bank.

It begins with large banks, that is those with equity in excess of $5 billion. The limit on individual ownership of shares is 20% of the value of the bank.

The second group includes banks with equity of one to five billion dollars, such as the National Bank, the only Quebec bank with a federal charter. Since equity for these institutions is less than $5 billion, 65% of the shares of that bank can be held by a single shareholder.

So we are back to the style of our finance minister, our great shipmaster, the only person who can decide how a bank can run itself. Will the bank defend the interests of its shareholders? Surely, since it is the majority shareholder. However, it will defend these interests to whose detriment. To the detriment of service and employees. This is cause for concern.

Then there are small institutions with less than $1 billion in equity, which can be owned 100% by one person. Unfortunately, that was not what the MacKay report recommended, as it suggested that ownership rules be changed to allow and foster the regrouping of small and medium sized financial institutions in a financial holding.

According to the MacKay report, several small financial institutions could associate and form a large bank with equity of $5 billion or more.

I see that my time is up, but I will indicate two other issues of concern to me.

First, Bill C-8 does not meet the expectations of the Bloc Quebecois about community reinvestment, not in the least. Second, it provides no protection to savers and investors.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms.Bakopanos)

Is the House ready for the question?

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Question.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

The question is on Motion No. 1. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Yea.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

All those opposed will please say nay.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

Some hon. members

Nay.

Financial Consumer Agency Of Canada ActGovernment Orders

10:55 a.m.

The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)

In my opinion the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen: