Debates of April 3rd, 2001

Supply

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

No, I did not. Read my speech.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

I am allowing the hon. member to get at me by heckling. I need to ignore it, so I will do that. The hon. member campaigned on that. We put forward a motion which used that campaign promise word for word and then he stood and voted against it. My question would be why he voted against it.

[John Williams, Canadian Alliance, St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Speaker, we have heard much about efficiency and working hard in the House. I know we will be adjourning for 15 minutes so I should like to ask for unanimous consent to continue the debate until 5.30, the commencement of private members' business.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Does the hon. member for St. Albert have unanimous consent of the House?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

It being 5.15 p.m., pursuant to order made earlier today, all questions necessary to dispose of the business of supply are deemed put and the recorded division deemed requested and deferred until Wednesday, April 4, 2001, at the expiry of the time provided for government orders.

[Jacques Saada, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. If you agree, I suggest we call it 5.30 p.m., so we could move directly to consideration of the bill introduced by my colleague from the Bloc Quebecois.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order concerning the motion about the expiry of government business. In the sense that the vote was already deferred, should we not have continued our debate until 5.30 since we knew there would be no call for a vote on the motion?

[The Deputy Speaker]

That is a very important and very appropriate question for the hon. member for Elk Island to ask. My response would be that normally, had the vote taken place today, the debate would have concluded at 5.15 p.m. The fact that the vote was deferred, the business still concludes at 5.15 p.m. and is not extended by that 15 minute period.

I go back to the deputy whip of the government asking for consent that we see the clock at 5.30 p.m. and proceed immediately with private members' business.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The House is adjourned until 5.30 p.m.

(The sitting of the House was suspended at 5.17 p.m.)

The House resumed at 5.30 p.m.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Order, please. It being 5.30 p.m., the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

Income Tax Act

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-De- Beaupré—Île-D'Orléans, QC]

moved that Bill C-222, an act to amend the Income Tax Act (deduction of expenses incurred by a mechanic for tools required in employment), be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to thank my colleague from Sherbrooke who seconded this bill. On behalf of my constituents of Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans whom I am the privilege of representing, it gives me great pleasure to speak to this bill.

For the benefit of the members present and of our viewers, I should mention that this is a private member's bill that will be voted on after a three hour debate at second reading.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank my colleagues on the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business for accepting my arguments that this bill is so important that it should be made votable so that we can get clear directions from parliament.

This subcommittee is non partisan by definition. The best proof of that is that the government is represented by only two members and that all four opposition parties are represented. Therefore, the subcommittee makes its decisions by consensus.

This is the second time that I have introduced a bill on this issue. Members will remember that, before the election, I had introduced Bill C-205, but I will come back to this later on.

The purpose of the bill is to allow mechanics to deduct the cost of providing tools for their employment. In the last 15 years, members from almost all parties have introduced private member's bills to ensure that mechanics could deduct the cost of their tools.

In fact, in the last parliament, I introduced Bill C-205, which was exactly the same as this one. It was not only voted on, since it was made a votable item, but it was supported by a majority of members, with 213 members voting in favour and only 11 against.

I see across the way the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance and member for Etobicoke North, who criticized my bill at second reading. But members were able to rise above partisanship and members from all parties ignored the directions coming from the finance minister.

I think the vote on Bill C-205, where 213 members voted in favour of it and 11 against, demonstrated that members understood the hardships faced by young mechanics and came together to offer them a modest tax break.

However, since the bill died on the order paper after the November 27 election was called, here I am once again promoting my bill.

There is so much support for the provisions of this bill that, in the last parliament, even the Standing Committee on Finance with its Liberal majority recommended in its prebudget report that this tax break be granted to automotive mechanics in Canada and in Quebec.

However, the support given to this bill is only one aspect of the importance of issues involved. Several other issues deserve to be addressed once again in the House of Commons and drawn to the public's attention.

We could talk about the inability of the auto industry to attract young people. We could talk about the pressure that mechanics, most of whom earn a very modest living, have to face to buy the best tools possible at a reasonable price.

We could also talk about the lack of fairness in a tax system that allows some tradesmen, but not others, to write off the cost of their tools and equipment.

This bill is becoming more and more necessary as time goes by. The amount of money mechanics had to pay to buy their tools when this issue was first brought before the House 15 years ago has increased tremendously.

We know that cars were far less sophisticated 10 years ago. Computer assisted components, which are now standard on most cars, are as much part of the new economy as the most recent Internet technologies and services provided by new high tech companies based in Montreal or in Ottawa.

I appeal to the common sense of my colleagues on both sides of the House because, after all, the main purpose of this bill is to help young people who choose this trade.

In our society, we cannot have white collar workers only, people who work with computers or in businesses where working conditions are exemplary. Our society cannot be made up of white collar workers and professionals only.

Some young people do not mind getting their hands dirty. Because they love auto mechanics, they are prepared to slide under cars. With our climate in Canada, cars often leak and oil and engine coolant literally drip onto the mechanics' faces. Just imagine what mechanics with 20, 25, 30 and 35 years of experience have gone through.

Unfortunately, since this has traditionally been a man's job, the field has been dominated by men and there are very few women auto mechanics. There are a few but, unfortunately, not many.

By the time auto mechanics reach the age of 50 or 55, their quality of life has dropped. For years on end, these people work hard to remove transmission parts, engine parts and tires and they wreck their backs or develop disc problems. They must be recognized for the value of the work they do.

Young mechanics, fresh out of school, often have to pay between $3,000 and $4,000 for the most basic toolbox. To get a job at a service station or a car dealership, an apprentice must have his own toolbox.

The first thing that a personnel director, or a garage owner or manager is going to ask is “Do you have your own set of tools?” In order to get hired, he must shell out $3,000 to $4,000 for his own tools, not to mention what he has often spent on tuition.

Some young people studying automobile mechanics may have parents who are comfortably off, who have paid all their tuition, but others are graduating with huge debts at the end of a lengthy occupational training course, such as we have in Quebec.

As for specialists, they must come up with close to $40,000, and this is no exaggeration.

When my office staff and I prepared this speech, and I take this opportunity to thank my parliamentary intern, Jonathan Weier, who worked very hard doing the research for it, I must say that I found $40,000 a bit steep.

But I checked this amount out. I went to service stations and car dealerships and I asked to see the toolkit of an experienced mechanic. They opened all the drawers.

When I mention the amount of $40,000, do not think, Mr. Speaker, that I am exaggerating because a set of tools for a specialist can easily cost as much as $40,000. I do not wish to suggest that you would do such a thing because I am sure that, like the member for Stormont—Dundas—Charlottenburgh, you too have had occasion to visit car dealerships and realize that I am right.

Cars have hybrid propulsion systems now. In all likelihood, in the future, the more cars will have computerized components or hybrid traction systems, the more parts and the toolkit of mechanics used to repair these hybrid systems will have to be adapted accordingly. As we will recall, last year Toyota introduced the Prius , which is part electric, part gasoline. This means more expenses.

The only difference between a newly hired mechanic and a young worker at Bombardier or somewhere else is that the Bombardier employee earns a fair amount more and has all the tools he needs supplied by his employer.

Interestingly, in its throne speech on January 30, 2001, the present government made a commitment “to support training programs, support the new economy and encourage continuing education among Canadian workers”. However, the government could give workers in traditional sectors some sign of its respect. Ongoing education and training programs seem to apply only to this new active population.

However, it is unfair and shortsighted to ignore those who play such an important role in the economy of Quebec and Canada in the 21st century, even though they work in a more traditional sector.

In a much more egalitarian, more fair society we must recognize that we need all professions. I paid for my studies by doing custodial work at the Chicoutimi hospital. I was just a student, but I was still in a position to understand that while a hospital had its physicians and surgeons, it still need its cleaners. Without a “mopologist”, as we called them at that time in Chicoutimi, to clean the ER and the OR, no great surgeon would operate, unless he was prepared to do so in conditions of minimal hygiene.

As parliamentarians, we have a duty to acknowledge the contribution of certain categories of workers in the rather more traditional jobs. We need to be open to the new economy and to make way for new employment sectors. I am not saying we should go back to horse and cart days. We need to recognize that there are workers who are entitled to help, even if they work in more traditional sectors.

The high costs associated with mechanical work will continue to put pressure on the automobile industry and will make it hard for young people to get into the trade.

In a June 1999 publication, the Canadian Automotive Repair and Service Council stated that “The biggest challenge facing the industry as the 20th century comes to an end will be to attract young people to its ranks”. This is one of the major issues in this sector: the serious shortage of young people wanting to join the trade, a shortage that does not seem likely to improve any time soon.

Among the factors that influence the attraction of this industry directly is the cost of tools for young apprentices and mechanics.

As I said earlier, a young person who graduates from high school at age 21 or 22 and wants to apprentice will have to invest several thousand dollars in his work. After paying off thousands of dollars in student debts, he will earn an average of $23,000, that is what apprentices make in Canada, while a mechanic with some experience earns $29,000. Whether it is $23,000 or $29,000, we are not talking about workers who earn $50,000 or $60,000.

Before being elected to the House, I was a director of personnel in the pulp and paper industry. I know the salaries that are paid in the pulp and paper industry. I am not saying these workers do not work hard; they work conscientiously and do quality work. These people are not at the top of the salary scale, with apprentices earning $23,000.

Most professionals in Canada are provided with the tools they need for their work, but not mechanics. For one reason or another, the automotive industry, gas stations, garages and other businesses employing mechanics decided that providing one's own tools was a condition of employment.

The idea is that mechanics will be more careful with their own tools and will maintain and adapt them to best do the work that they have to do. This is particularly unfair, since there are many other professions where workers are allowed to deduct, for income tax purposes, expenses incurred for their tools.

I know that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance will say: But what about electricians? What about plumbers? An electrician does not have the same tool kit as an automobile technician.

I do hope the parliamentary secretary has changed his mind after seeing 213 members voting in favour of my bill, but we will see soon enough. During his speech, I would like him to think about the performers, the musicians and the chainsaw operators who are entitled to deduct the cost of the tools of their trade.

What we and the auto mechanics and the automotive industry associations are asking for is simply justice and fairness.

This legislation has the support of members from all political parties. It has nothing to do with the differences of opinion between the right and the left, the sovereignists and the federalists. With this bill, and I am glad I was able to convince the Subcommittee on Private Members' Business, I want to rise above party lines. We have to put politics aside. Yes, I am a member of the Bloc Quebecois and I am the one who raised the issue. I was able to convince my colleagues in the House. I was fortunate to win out in the draw. However, I am just a messenger here trying to move forward a vision of fairness and justice.

By the way, I am not a car buff. I invite members to drop by my place and have a look at my toolbox. It is very basic. I have a hard time just putting oil in my car engine. I am not good around cars. However the people I have met during election campaigns and parliamentary breaks have convinced me that something has to be done about this important issue.

I would remind those who have doubts about the possibility of Bill C-222 being passed that the Income Tax Act is amended regularly throughout the year in order to bring it into line with new social realities. As for authorities being able to prevent the use of tools for personal projects, I say that we must trust people. There is no reason to question their honesty and goodwill.

Although the government expressed a certain sympathy, it has still not taken action to resolve the problem by introducing this tax credit in the budgets it has brought down since the 1997 report by the Standing Committee on Finance.

In addition to the broad support enjoyed by this measure in the House of Commons, I have received many letters of support from organizations in the industry, private citizens, labour unions and almost all groups with an interest in the issue. The Automotive Industries Association of Canada, for instance, pointed out the growing difficulty of finding qualified mechanics.

The increase in the number of car owners in Canada and in Quebec is increasing our dependence on the automotive industry. We must address this serious problem facing the industry. In my view, the bill is a matter of common sense, justice and good financial planning. Obviously, the majority of members on both sides of the House agree with me.

I call on all members who voted in favour of my last bill to vote in favour of this one. In the name of justice and common sense, I call on the 45 new members elected in the last general election on November 27, 2000 to vote in favour of this bill.

Finally, I call on the 11 Liberal members who voted against a similar bill to reconsider their decision.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Finance]

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I have changed my mind, but this initiative has received the government's attention, and I congratulate the member on his tenacity with this measure.

Allow me to speak to some of the shortcomings of the bill. First, the private member's bill proposes changes to the Income Tax Act to help mechanics defray the cost of providing their own tools when doing so is a condition of employment.

The changes would allow mechanics to deduct the cost of buying, renting, insuring or maintaining their tools. An income deduction would be available for tools that cost less than $250. That amount may be adjusted according to inflation. Higher tool costs would be subject to some form of capital cost allowance. The allowances would be set by special regulation.

Canadian employers normally provide workers with tools and other resources they need to do their jobs. Canadian workers nonetheless bear job related costs, whether in getting to and from work, buying uniforms or other work clothes, eating away from home or keeping up with trade journals. All Canadians incur costs when they take a job.

The bill aims to recognize that employed mechanics face exceptional work related costs. The Government of Canada understands that tool costs can be significant, particularly at the start of a career.

Today I will put some of these issues in perspective. First I will talk about the cost of tools. We have heard many estimates. Today the member opposite cited an amount of $40,000. When we debated this bill previously I was struck by the wildly different numbers members had proposed in the Chamber. Different members stood and told us a mechanic could pay $10,000 or $25,000 or even $75,000 for their tools.

Well, maybe those are possible. Let us look instead at what is normal. The Canadian Automotive Repairs and Service Council surveyed technicians and apprentices a couple of years ago. They found that half of these mechanics owned some $20,000 worth of tools. But this is just an average. About a third of mechanics said they owned more than $30,000 worth of tools, for example. Either way, whether it is $20,000 or even more, these tools obviously add up to quite a bit of money.

Let us look at it a different way. Let us suppose a mechanic spends $20,000 on tools and uses them over a 40 year career. It is not obvious whether that is a tremendous burden. I do not believe either of those numbers is right. The numbers that make more sense are annual expenditures. Annual costs give us a better sense of affordability. They take into account that tools need to be replaced or updated over time.

A journeyman mechanic who has a basic tool kit probably built it up while learning the trade. How much would he or she need to spend to keep the tools intact and updated? The same Canadian Automobile Repair and Service Council survey I mentioned earlier would suggest that the average expenditure is about $1,500 per year.

Four in ten mechanics say that they spend less than $1,000 per year and 23% of mechanics say that they spend more than $2,500 per year. However there are two key points. The costs are not the same for everyone and one's ability to handle the costs depends on how much money one makes.

The members of this House all know that mechanics are not rich. They do, however, earn a better living than many other workers. Let us try to put it in perspective. In 1996, the average automotive service technician was making about $38,000 a year, not $26,000 as the Bloc Quebecois member mentioned.

In that same year, the average university graduate was making just over $42,000. And people with less than a university degree earned an average of $26,000. These are real numbers, based on the 1996 census.

Mechanics are not rich but they do all right compared to the national averages and compared to tradespeople, like bricklayers and carpenters, who make about $34,000 per year.

Let me go back to the Canadian Automobile Repair and Service Council survey one more time. It asked members to report how much they made. Some 15% said they made less than $25,000 per year, most of them no doubt apprentices, but 13% said they made more than $55,000 per year. Again, the point I make is that everyone's situation is different.

That brings me to another issue. When we recently debated a similar bill I was struck by the fact that all but one of the speakers singled out the impact of tool costs on the number of apprentice mechanics entering the field. I will take a minute to focus on apprentices' tool expenses and their earnings.

I guess the first question is, how much does it cost for a starter toolbox and tools? Well, the CARS Council says it can cost between $3,000 and $4,000. This is just the basic starter kit. The apprentice would add more tools as he or she progressed through the apprenticeship program. During a typical four year apprenticeship, it would not be unheard of to spend $15,000 and sometimes more. So let us compare that to what they earn. The average annual income is about $20,000.

It would certainly be a challenge for an apprentice mechanic to buy $3,000 worth of tools on an annual income of $20,000 per year. We understand that. In some cases the costs might even make someone think twice before signing up to be a mechanic.

I only want to reinforce my point. That this bill fails to take into account the different circumstances faced by different mechanics. At one level, we have apprentices who pay somewhere around $3,000 a year for tools, on an annual salary of $20,000, and we have journeymen spending around $1,500 a year on tools, while they are making $38,000 a year.

At another level we have different journeymen with different incomes and tool expenses. Is that what the member for Beauport—Montmorency—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans wanted, to help a mechanic earning $60,000 a year write off $500 in tools? Perhaps that is his intention, but what will he tell the plumber or carpenter who must cover similar tool costs out of pocket?

There is merit in the idea behind this private member's bill. The very substantial employment expenses incurred by some employed mechanics are certainly a concern. I would also say that exceptionally high work related expenses should not prevent people from participating in the economy.

However, the bill fails to distinguish between those who can reasonably afford to cover tool costs and those who might really need some help. The government intends to work with representatives from the automobile industry to explore better options to address this issue, particularly with respect to the challenges faced by apprentices. In exploring other options the government hopes to find ways to address some of the shortcomings of the private member's bill. Accordingly, I would ask members to think carefully about this bill before supporting it.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I am happy indeed to rise to speak to this bill. This probably makes half a dozen times or so in the seven years I have been here that I have risen to speak to it, and it is an important enough issue that I am pleased to speak to it every time I get a chance.

I just listened to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance make his comments as the member for Etobicoke North. Last time, about two weeks ago when it was my private member's bill, which is essentially the same bill that the member was responding to, he had a whole different set of excuses. These clearly are excuses and it is some of the dumbest reasoning for not supporting the bill that I have ever heard in the House.

It is some of the dumbest indeed. He says mechanics do all right, that some make $50,000 or more a year, and for that reason they are not in need of a write-off. It has nothing to do with what they are in need of. It has to do with what is fair under the tax act. It has everything to do with what is fair compared to the way others are treated.

It is not an issue that mechanics are making low incomes and therefore they are charity cases so let us throw them a few crumbs. That is not what it is about. The member should know that. He should be disgusted with himself for making that kind of presentation.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm not.

[Leon Benoit, Canadian Alliance, Lakeland, AB]

He said he is not, but he should be. I think that is an awfully sad commentary.

Let us look at what this is all about. We are talking about providing tax fairness for technicians and mechanics who as a condition of employment must provide their own tools.

The parliamentary secretary said the annual fees are what we should be looking at, that the cost of purchasing the tools, which may be anywhere from $20,000 to $70,000 for the total tool package, is not that important because it is a cost over 40 years. If the member knew anything at all about mechanics he would know that, first, tools wear out and, second, get lost. That is why employers make it a condition of employment for mechanics to buy their own tools. If mechanics do not have their own tools, what shop owners have found over the years is that the tools disappear. They are left on vehicles. Maybe some walk out of the shop with the mechanics, although I suggest that is not the most common problem. They are just not as careful with them as they are when the tolls are their own.

The issue is that it is a requirement of employment. We already have others under the tax act who in fact can write off the cost of their tools. The member knows that. We are talking about tax fairness.

For example, artists, chainsaw operators and musicians can already do that. Besides that, any small business person, someone on a farm or in a small town who may even be the only employee working in the shop, under that situation, he or she can write off all the costs of providing tools, no matter what the value of the tools is. Any business person can do that.

If people choose to organize in that fashion, where they have their own shop and are doing work for customers out of their own shop, they can write everything off. They should be able to. It is a cost of doing business.

Mechanics and technicians operate under a unusual set of circumstances where there is a high cost to tools provided. It is not like plumbers and carpenters, I suggest. I would suggest that the parliamentary secretary is right in one regard and that is that everyone who has a high cost of purchasing tools should be allowed to write it off. However, I suggest there are extremely few tradespeople in the same position.

Mechanics are indeed in a very unusual position in that the cost of their tools is extremely high. The $1,300 or whatever the annual fee was that the member talked about is only one part of it. When the tool package commonly reaches $30,000 to $50,000 in total, it is very difficult for a mechanic.

I have a bit of a problem when I hear the member from Etobicoke, the parliamentary secretary, saying that mechanics are not doing so bad, that they earn $50,000 and therefore we should not grant them the same fairness that is granted to private business people or to chainsaw operators and the other select group.

Perhaps he should be thinking about his own salary. As a member of parliament, the member makes about $68,000 a year, which is about the same as a teacher in Ontario who is at the top end of the salary range, but he also earns a supplement for being a parliamentary secretary. That is quite substantial. As well, he gets a tax free allowance, much of which is not used for what would be considered legitimate business expenses if he were a person working for a company and had an expense account. Much of that tax free allowance—much more than five years ago certainly—is an income top-up.

The member is talking about $50,000 being a high income and therefore we should forget about what is fair. It bothers me. Look at who is saying that: a person collecting a very healthy salary. I do have a real problem with that.

This is not an issue of some mechanics making a pretty good income so we should give them some scraps here and there. This is about tax fairness.

The finance committee, which is controlled by Liberal members, has on different occasions said this is the right thing to do. In its prebudget report in December 1997, the House of Commons finance committee, consisting of a majority of Liberal members, this parliamentary secretary's colleagues, said:

The Committee believes that all Canadian employees should be allowed to deduct from their income the cost of large mandatory employment expenses. Special provisions in the Income Tax Act already apply to artists, chainsaw operators and musicians. To deny this tax treatment to apprentices and technicians in the automotive industry is not only unfair, it also imposes an impediment to employment, especially for the young who might choose to work as apprentices. Revising the tax treatment of such expenses would remove the impediment that exists under the present tax rules.

This is a quote from the report of the finance committee from 1997. This member's own colleagues certainly held a majority of positions on that committee. That was supported by the members of the Reform Party at the time, now the Canadian Alliance.

It is something that was supported in debate by all political parties in the House, including colleagues of the parliamentary secretary. The parliamentary secretaries to the finance minister seem to be the only people who speak out against the bill. As the Bloc member who sponsored the bill has said, we had a vote in the House of Commons just before the election was called. The unnecessary early call of the election interfered with its passing. Only 11 people in the House voted against it. Most of the parliamentary secretary's colleagues, including some cabinet ministers, supported this bill.

So what are we doing? There should be no resistance to the bill. It has been well supported and it is time that it was implemented. I speak fully in support of the bill and I know all of my colleagues support it. They think it is an issue of tax fairness.

It is funny how tax fairness for the government only seems to be talked about, considered and implemented when that tax fairness means raising taxes to one group so that it is fair relative to everyone else. Only when the government can get its mitts on more taxes is it an issue of tax fairness. I say that is not the way the country should be going. We should be looking for substantial tax reductions. Unfortunately, that just is not happening.

This is leading to several very serious problems. First of all, people who may otherwise become technicians and keep the country moving with cars, trucks, airplanes and so on are looking elsewhere for employment. Who is going to keep our country going as this shortage increases? The blame should be laid squarely on the shoulders of the government, which refused to act in this issue of tax fairness.

I would encourage members of the House, when the bill does come up for vote after the third hour of debate, to once again unanimously support the bill. It is a very good bill, which is almost identical to the bill I presented, was debated on at least two occasions in the House and introduced on more occasions.

I appreciate the opportunity to speak on the bill. I am very disappointed with the parliamentary secretary and his comments. He made a whole new set of excuses, as I have said. I would be happy to go through the excuses from last time, but let us move ahead, support the bill, get it to committee and implement it so that technicians and mechanics across this country are treated fairly under the Income Tax Act.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Speaker, first, I wish to congratulate my colleague from Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île-d'Orléans on his bill, Bill C-222. It is the second time he introduces such a bill in the House of Commons.

It is also interesting to see that it is the second time the bill is made votable. There is a political will to make the necessary changes to allow mechanics to write off the expenses incurred for their tools.

Members will probably recall that I tabled a motion, Motion No. 248, dealing with this very subject. When that motion was debated, the parliamentary secretary made the same speech. Instead of coming to the House of Commons, he could simply press a button and we could hear what he has already said. He could spend his time doing other things for his riding.

The parliamentary secretary was saying then “It is not right because people who earn less money, who make $20,000, can pay more for their tools because they are apprentices. They will receive less money from the government, from Revenue Canada. Someone earning $35,000 may only spend $1,500 a year, and that is not fair”.

I wonder if the government applies the same standard to big companies making billions of dollars and those making much less or even losing money. Everyone within companies is entitled to tax deductions.

The parliamentary secretary used these arguments in the debate on my Motion No. 248, when I asked that the GST on tools of all trades be abolished in order to eliminate discrimination. Today, he is saying “It is unfortunate, but it would only apply to mechanics”.

A few weeks back, he used the same argument when I was talking about all the various trades. The parliamentary secretary may have a small problem here. In all fairness, it must be that the finance minister, who is the one who has the money, tells the parliamentary secretary “This is what I want you to say. Tonight, at 5.30 p.m., you will stand up in the House and tell everyone that there is no money left for the workers”.

The government member mentioned wages earlier. I did some research back home. Mechanics working in the Brunswick mine spend $2,500 a year on tools. It may not be the end of the world, but I think a mechanic who leaves for work in the morning, carrying his lunch box, has a tough workday in front of him. He will be covered in grease by the end of the day. The work he does is important for the output of our country. He will be repairing equipment, whether it is in a mine or in a garage. As far as wages are concerned, a service station, not just in New Brunswick but anywhere in the country, is certainly not the place workers are going to get the highest pay, especially when they are still apprentice mechanics.

The hon. member who introduced this bill is merely asking that the government give some recognition, out of respect, for these people who will be expected to produce on the job all their lives. Give them a little. Someone earning $35,000 will pay, I don't know, maybe $10,000 or $12,000 in income tax. This worker might well say “With all the taxes I pay, I could at least get a little back, say $175”.

The government says “We cannot do so because we are afraid of discriminating against others. We cannot do so because we know some mechanics earn less than others. We cannot do it”.

This is ridiculous. The government never has that problem, as I have said, when it is comes to corporations that are making money and ones that are not. They amend the formula for the unprofitable ones, instead of them being penalized. There is nothing more for them to do.

On the other hand, if a mechanic has the good fortune to find a job with a company that supplies tools, the company has a tax deduction.

A mechanic who must buy his own tools, who earns a small salary, who spent four years at a community college, who learned his trade and who incurred debts totalling $40,000 cannot get this break. He cannot get an annual deduction of $175 or $200 even though he has to buy tools. This is not right because he is just an ordinary worker.

As was mentioned earlier, lumberjacks got a deduction, and I am glad they did. For example, a lumberjack has to spend about $750 or $850 on buying a chainsaw. He does not work all winter, but come spring, he has to buy one. At least, he will get a small tax deduction to buy his next chainsaw.

A few weeks ago, when I introduced my Motion No. 248, I said that all tradespeople should get a deduction for the GST.

The parliamentary secretary, the same one who is here this evening, said at the time that it would be too hard to manage. I told him that it would not be difficult if the Liberals would follow up on what they had in mind in 1992. When they prepared their platform for the 1993 election, they said they would eliminate the GST. It would be easy to manage such a program, since that tax would simply be removed.

However they did not do that. So, under the bill proposed by our colleague from the Bloc Quebecois, these workers would at least get this small tax deduction.

As the hon. member said, whether a private member's bill is presented by a Bloc Quebecois, NDP, Canadian Alliance, Liberal or Progressive Conservative member, it is a personal thing. It is something that each member can have a view on.

If the Liberals across the way refuse to pass Bill C-222 to give mechanics a tax break, this will mean that they are telling all mechanics in Ontario who work in the automotive industry that they do not give a damn about them.

In the November 27, 2000, election, the Liberals must have received some votes from mechanics in Ontario. We know that there are members from Ontario on the other side of the House.

Do mechanics in Ontario know that the Bloc Quebecois member introduced a bill calling for a paltry $175 tax break for them? I am sure that some automotive industry workers have paid taxes as high as $20,000. Others have perhaps paid more because of overtime.

Hopefully, this bill will bring the members from Ontario now in the House to their senses. I know they do not know which way to look right now. I wonder if they are embarrassed. Usually, they are right in there.

I hope that the speeches today will shake them up a bit and that they will support the bill, that they will stop complaining that they are backbenchers and that they do not get a chance to vote and must do as the Prime Minister tells them. That is a real shame. The members are on the government side. They could get things through, but they whine that they are not allowed to take decisions.

This evening, I want Canadians to know that each of these members can make up his own mind about this private members' bill. They cannot hide behind the excuse that the parliamentary secretary is against Bill C-222, that the Minister of Finance does not wish to make changes to tax credits for mechanics. They cannot hide. Each decision will be an individual one.

I just want to make sure, and I will repeat this here, that the decision will be an individual decision when it comes to a vote on Bill C-222. It is a bill and will become the law.

For those members of parliament who hide and say they have to follow the party line, this is one where they do not have to follow the party line.

[An hon. member]

They could stand up on their own hind legs.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

They could stand up on their own. I encourage the members of parliament, the majority who come from Ontario where they have all those car plants, to stand up, have a strong backbone and vote for the bill to show the Minister of Finance that we can have some democracy in the House of Commons. That could be done and we could see it with this bill.

[Scott Brison, Progressive Conservative, Kings—Hants, NS]

Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I rise today to speak on Bill C-222, which would actually address what is a significant inequity in our tax treatment, in this case, of mechanics in Canada.

There are 115,000 mechanics across the country, on average investing between $15,000 and $40,000 each in tools and equipment. The average wage for these mechanics is not as high as what I have heard some Liberal members opposite claim it to be. In fact, the average income is $29,000.

I heard one of those members opposite, and I believe it was the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Finance, say that the average mechanic's wage is $60,000 or something to that effect. I do not know what kind of car he is driving, but I am driving a 10 year old Volvo station wagon and I cannot not afford to pay mechanics who cost that kind of money. Obviously the parliamentary secretary is investing an awful lot more in cars than some of the members here in the opposition.

The fact is that the average income is $29,000 and the investment just to get through the door to become a mechanic and have those tools required averages between $15,000 and $40,000. It is little wonder that we are faced with a critical shortfall of mechanics across the country. This is becoming a real issue. This is a real issue that is going to wreak havoc in the long term and affect every one of us in our own situations as we need the services of mechanics.

It is clear that this piece of legislation is fair. It makes a great deal of sense. It would extend the same treatment to mechanics that we see extended to professionals who, in many cases, have the ability under the tax code to write off professional expenses that are required for participation in their particular job or profession. It is very sensible.

In fact, the House of Commons finance committee in 1996 and 1997 made this recommendation to the Minister of Finance in its prebudget consultation report. It would go a long way toward improving the fairness of our tax treatment, in this case, of mechanics. If we improve the tax treatment or the fairness of our tax system for any segment or group of people within society, we all stand to benefit.

This proposal represents one idea, in this case from one member of parliament, on things we can do with our tax system to make it better, to make it fairer and to make it more effective in creating greater opportunities for Canadians.

I would like to take the opportunity to segue into a related topic, and that is a speech given by Jack Mintz, the president of the C.D. Howe Institute. In the past he chaired a report to the Minister of Finance on tax reform in Canada. Recently he gave a speech where he, not as a parliamentarian but as an individual with a great deal of depth on public policy issues in Canada, provided a four point plan on ways in which he sees Canada becoming a stronger, more prosperous country in the 21st century.

In the same way that the hon. member presented his piece of legislation, this private member's legislation, on a specific means by which to have a better, fairer tax system, I would like to present some other ideas, in this case from Jack Mintz, the president of the C.D. Howe Institute. What he describes is his four point plan.

That four point plan sounds like going to a mechanic or someone servicing a car, again in a related segue. The first point he makes is to reward success, not failure, to judge public programs based on what they accomplish. Successful ones are funded and continue to be funded. Failing programs are not funded. Clearly HRDC or some of the aid programs which have fallen under the purview of the minister of HRDC might find it difficult to achieve funding under this sort of scrutiny.

Public sector workers need to be paid and rewarded in monetary and in non-pecuniary ways according to their success in meeting objectives. This would include civil servants, teachers, professors, medical workers and anyone who is paid from public money. He suggests that we need competition in providing public services and that in fact there has to be a greater ability for market forces to pervade the delivery of public services.

He also suggests as the second point in his plan that of tackling the public debt in Canada. We have a huge debt in Canada that has built up over the years. The total government debt in Canada is $850 billion. Unfunded liabilities for public pensions and public health care, if we add those in, take us to about the $2 trillion mark for the total public debt in Canada. That does not include many of the other contingent liabilities. If the problem is left untouched, we will have to levy taxes equal to eight per cent of our GDP just to service these liabilities by 2015.

Mr. Mintz is suggesting that we take a very aggressive approach to our federal debt. To reduce tax burden in the future, he suggests that we tackle our federal debt and use the returns from tackling the federal debt and those returns coming from the reduced interest payments that we see as an expense every year, paid by the taxpayers of Canada.

If we were to take a more aggressive approach to public debt now, as a result we would engage in what would become a virtuous circle of using that reduced level of expense from paying the reduced level of interest on the principal of our debt to actually fund tax reduction, which would of course benefit Canadians and create greater levels of economic growth.

That would reduce the debt not just in real terms but also as a percentage of GDP, by reducing the debt of course in real terms but also by increasing the GDP through aggressive tax measures which would fuel greater levels of economic growth.

In Canada our governments command well over 40% of the economy. That is higher than Australia, Iceland, Ireland, Switzerland and others countries, which operate on a third or less of the national economies. The U.S. is at about 30%. Clearly we have to reduce the percentage of government participation overall as a per cent of our GDP.

We need to address Canada's dysfunctional tax system. We have a tax system that needs significant reform. The hon. member has presented in this case a specific initiative that would improve the fairness as it relates to mechanics. I would suggest that we need to move much further and actually provide a comprehensive, holistic approach to tax reform and in fact start using tax policy and tax reform measures as vehicles to create greater levels of economic growth and opportunity for Canadians.

Mr. Mintz is now president of the C.D. Howe Institute. In a previous incarnation, he was the author of the Mintz report, commissioned by the Minister of Finance but subsequently shelved by the Minister of Finance because it did not contain purely politically palatable recommendations. As he had the courage to address some of the long term competitiveness issues facing Canadians, he has a great deal to offer in this regard.

From a tax perspective he goes further to suggest we need to significantly reduce areas of taxation in Canada that are most out of line with those of our competitors. They include corporate and capital taxes which deny business the necessary capital to achieve greater levels of productivity and competitiveness in the hypercompetitive global economy.

[The Deputy Speaker]

The time provided for the consideration of private members' business has now expired and the order is dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.