Debates of May 17th, 2001

Supply

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to take part in this debate today on the Canadian Alliance supply motion brought forward by the member for Langley—Abbotsford.

I would like to begin my remarks by pointing out that there seems to be little doubt that Canada's approach to illicit drugs over the past few decades has been a dismal failure. I sincerely believe we need to start looking objectively and openly at new approaches to combat this very serious and complex problem.

When I say that there has been a failure in our drug policy, I do not point at any one particular agency or indeed any particular political party. I think we have all been a part of this failure. Our reluctance to look at genuine efforts to improve and change the system is a very important part of that failure.

At the onset of my comments I would also like to commend to members a reading of the special report that the Ottawa Citizen put out in September 2000. It was a report by Dan Gardner entitled “Losing the War on Drugs”. The first line indicates that for decades the United States led a global battle against illicit drugs. The results have been catastrophic. It is very important to read that report to get an understanding of some of the issues. One may or may not agree with the conclusions the writer reaches, but certainly I commend the report.

I also want to state that we have to recall that drug addicts are human beings. Whether they have brought this condition upon themselves or whether they are victims, they are human beings worthy of respect. They come from all types of homes and economic backgrounds and from all parts of the country.

My own riding of Provencher is a conservative, primarily rural riding. We do not have prostitutes in the streets of our communities. The hard drug problem and indeed even the soft drug problem are by and large silent and hidden, but I think there are ominous threats that will affect even relatively serene rural parts of the country.

I can point to the threat of methamphetamine, which is working its way through the United States and becoming more of a problem in Canada. As the minister of justice in Manitoba, I had occasion to work with American law enforcement agencies that have dealt with the horrendous problem of methamphetamine. In some of the seminars I attended and the discussions in which I took part, I was advised that in the state of California 90% of the child welfare apprehensions are related to methamphetamine abuse and many police officers and child care workers investigating these situations do not even realize that methamphetamine is at the root of some of these problems in terms of the immediate drug problem.

This very dangerous drug is finding its way not only across the United States but into Canada. For those of us who think that heroin, cocaine and other drug problems are largely an urban, large city problem, methamphetamine should be a wake-up call for police forces in rural areas, because its use appears to be growing primarily in rural ridings and among blue collar, Caucasian individuals.

Sometimes we tend to see a drug problem as belonging to another economic or racial group. There can certainly be very general categories when it comes to that, but I think it is important to remember that the problem of hard drugs ultimately affects everyone, no matter what racial background we are, no matter what economic background we are from and no matter where we live in our country.

Even though a riding like Provencher does not have prostitutes in the streets and the drug problems are primarily hidden, the reality is that even children and young adults from the riding of Provencher can become prostitutes and drug addicts. They drift to the streets of larger cities, where they die in anonymity.

The citizens of the large core areas of our cities suffer from the presence of drug addicts and prostitutes. Their streets are congested with johns, with organized crime and with other contributing factors to the problems raised by drugs. We see this more visibly in cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Winnipeg.

We should also commend those workers who are involved in this very difficult struggle on a day to day basis: the police officers, the social workers and the volunteer community organizations. They truly are angels in a very dark night.

With the debate today, I hope we can get beyond our apprehensions about this issue and have a productive and non-partisan dialogue. I appreciate that the Senate is also conducting hearings and studies in respect of this matter. However I think we as elected representatives need to participate in a very active way in the discussion. Because we are elected and because we are responsible to our constituents, we need to be involved in this process in a substantive way. This is not about duplication. This is about participation. We need to start thinking beyond our current policies and start asking ourselves the tougher questions about what is working and what is not.

If the motion is passed and implemented, parliament will have a new special committee examining the way in which the federal parliament can address the wide ranging problems that result from the non-medical use of drugs. The need for such a committee can hardly be in question.

The annual worldwide revenue generated by the illicit drug industry is approximately $400 billion American, which amounts to about an 8% share of total international trade.

Of course Canada does not exist in a vacuum, and In Canada alone each year the total economic costs attributed to illicit drug use is estimated at $1.4 billion, with billions more fuelling organized crime. According to the RCMP's 1999 report on drugs in Canada, the illicit drug trade is a principal source of revenue for most organized crime groups. This is a serious situation with no easy answers.

In light of this, I would like to bring to members' attention a letter that called into question traditional methods of dealing with illicit drug use.

Almost three years ago, the secretary general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, received a letter signed by a variety of both academic and public figures, including a former UN secretary general, a former U.S. secretary of state, a former U.S. surgeon general, Nobel laureates, former presidents and cabinet ministers of Latin American countries and, indeed, in among that list was a number of prominent Canadians. What was so remarkable was not so much who signed the letter but the content of it. The letter stated:

We believe that the global war on drugs is now causing more harm than drug abuse itself.

This is an extraordinary statement. The main thrust of this statement of course was that the consequences of social deterioration from illicit drugs resulted not so much from drug use per se but from failed drug policies.

The concerns articulated in this letter focus on the idea that international trends reflecting primarily punitive drug control measures have empowered criminals, corrupted governments, eroded security and impeded efforts to prevent the spread of infectious diseases, such as HIV and hepatitis.

The letter also claims that significant resources are being depleted on ineffective and increasingly more expensive interdiction efforts, and that not enough is being expended on reducing drug related crime, disease and death.

I cannot imagine that anyone here today would dispute the kind of substantial and permanent harm that results from the use of illicit drugs by members of our society. However, this letter and many other briefs and documents currently in circulation indicate that there is significant and widespread disagreement as to how best to solve the issue in society.

To that effect, we are proposing today to create a committee to analyze these issues carefully and as objectively as possible.

The current strategy in Canada is almost identical to the strategy introduced by the Conservative government almost 15 years ago. Therefore, I do not think finger pointing is productive in this debate.

Both policies, the former and the current of the Conservative government, clearly articulate the overall long term goal of harm, reduction and rehabilitation, in addition to the principles of criminal prosecution and education measures intended to combat and prevent the abuse of such substances.

The reality is that these strategies appear to have failed almost completely.

The Addiction Research Foundation has been conducting the Ontario student drug use survey since 1977. I would like to mention some of its findings today in the House.

The percentage of students using cannabis in the last 12 months peaked at 31.7% in 1979 and then fell for the next six surveys to 11.7% in 1991. In 1993 it increased slightly to 12.7%. Since 1993 usage has climbed back up to 25% in 1997. The percentage of users is now highest in grade 11 at 42%. That is an astounding figure when one considers this is an illicit drug and that 42% of grade 11 students in Ontario utilize this drug.

Peak usage of glue and solvents was in 1979 and then there was a sharp decrease until 1991. Numbers rose again after reaching 1.8% for glue and 2.6% for solvents in 1997. The 1999 survey gives a sharply higher figure for glue at 3.6% and solvents at 7.1%. The issue of glue and solvents is a horrendous problem in the core area of the city of Winnipeg and some other rural prairie cities and does significant damage to children and adults. We have been powerless to do anything about the spread of this horrible addiction.

The peak for LSD was in 1981. The trough was in 1991 at 5.2%. However it has risen back up to about 7%. Overall, LSD usage has risen over the past decade.

Cocaine has been tracked since 1977 while crack cocaine, which is usually associated with urban ghettos primarily in the American cities, has been tracked since 1987. Cocaine peaked in 1979 at 5.1% and then fell only to rise again. Crack cocaine usage has increased sharply. Cocaine usage rose sharply in 1999 to 3.7%. The usage of crack increased in 1999 to 2.4%.

Thirty-six percent of students in 1999 said that in the last year someone had tried to sell them drugs. Thirty-two percent said that they had observed someone selling drugs.

I think the statistics are clear, whether we look to Ontario, Manitoba, British Columbia, the maritimes or Quebec, illicit drug use, particularly by adolescents, our future here in Canada, has been increasing steadily over the past decade.

Additionally, the Vancouver drug scene has seen a huge increase in the purity of heroin and the introduction of cheap cocaine and crack to the city in the early 1990s. I always have to remark about the conjunction of the words pure and heroin. It almost has a very chilling effect on one when something that devilish and that horrible can be considered pure, but of course I understand it in the chemical sense.

The number of illicit drug overdose deaths have averaged 147 per year over the past seven years. Many of those who die from drug overdoses are not even the heavy drug users. Casual users do not know the strength of street heroin and mixing alcohol with heroin dramatically increases the risk for overdose.

Experimentation with marijuana in Vancouver has risen by 50% in the last five years to 58% of the 17 year olds interviewed.

Other areas of concern are HIV and hepatitis C infection, increased drug misuse among youth, inadequate treatment services and the relationship between crime and substance abuse.

If we look at the economic costs, we need to look far beyond the simple cost of enforcing drug laws themselves. Illicit and illegal drug use is a significant contributing factor in a wide range of crimes, such as property offences, violent crimes, robbery and prostitution. That does not even take into account the organized crime rings that thrive on the commerce and the money generated by this trade.

As elected representatives, we need to participate in an active, substantive way. Burying our heads in the sand and saying that this will not affect our particular riding because it is a quiet rural riding and we have other things to concern ourselves with will simply delay the problem. One day the problem will even be in those ridings that we consider safe and secure from the problems of drugs.

I commend my colleague for bringing the motion forward and I commend the motion to others in the House.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, when I look at the Alliance platform on drugs it is sort of a vague discussion regarding the creation of a national drug strategy and talking about increasing funding for rehabilitation and education.

However, when the government did exactly that by providing roughly $2.5 million for a drug addiction research facility, the member for Langley—Abbotsford called it redundant. How serious is the Alliance about this problem? Perhaps the hon. member could provide some insight.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Madam Speaker, I appreciate the question. I cannot speak to the details of the concern of the member for Langley—Abbotsford about the particular expenditure of funds. In the area of drug addiction and drug treatment it is very important to ensure that money is being used effectively. I do not know whether the concern was that the money was not being used effectively.

I have spoken to the member who introduced the motion. I know this matter concerns him very deeply. He has spent a lot of time on the street with police forces looking into the situations and conditions involving drug addicts and prostitutes. I do not think he brought the matter forward in a frivolous way.

If our policy is in some way inadequate, I as a member of the Canadian Alliance would like to hear from Canadians. We need to be responsive to them on this issue. If we need to spend money in certain areas in an effective way to break the cycle of drug addiction and the downward spiral of some of our core areas, I am prepared to re-examine policy.

I come to this issue with an open mind, in recognition that past drug policies of Conservative and Liberal governments have failed. I prefaced my remarks by saying that I am not pointing fingers. I want the contribution of all members to this very important debate, not just in the Senate but in the House of Commons.

[John Maloney, Liberal, Erie—Lincoln, ON]

Madam Speaker, as the member opposite is probably aware, we have a rather innovative project called the Toronto drug treatment court. It is a special court designed to supervise cases of drug dependency of offenders who have agreed to accept treatment of their substance abuse. Another project of a similar nature will be starting in Vancouver.

I am aware that some representatives of the Alliance Party have visited the drug treatment court in Toronto. I would very much appreciate the comments of the member opposite on whether he is aware of the program and, if so, what he feels about it.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Madam Speaker, one colleague from Regina who will be speaking to the motion had occasion to attend at the Toronto drug court. Generally speaking I know he received some favourable impressions and will be speaking about them.

I commend that member for taking the initiative to look beyond the box, the way we have traditionally approached the particular problem. I trust his comments and the experience he gained will not only assist us in our deliberations today but perhaps help guide the committee.

In the area of drug policy I recognize that there will be a lot of controversy. We have to be very hesitant to condemn those who speak about new innovative ways. We have to seriously analyze and evaluate these programs. We cannot just let them go on and pretend that by simply creating new programs we are making changes. There is a responsibility on us if as a House we fund some of these programs. We have a responsibility to evaluate but I will not condemn those who, having looked at the wreckage of the drug policy over the past three decades, now say we have to do something else.

This is not only an issue of street workers or social workers against police. I think we would find division in all these professions, but all these individuals are trying to help the very unfortunate people who are addicted to illicit drugs.

We need to encourage innovation that does not absolve us from the responsibility of evaluating what has gone on. Part of the problem is that we have not been evaluating what has gone on, but my colleague from Regina will be giving a little more detail in that respect.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I commend the member for Provencher on his comments and refer to his previous office in another life when he was minister of justice of the province of Manitoba. He is only too well aware of the difficulties in administering justice and making sure that our justice system works.

He made the observation that the drug policy had not worked. That is a very serious allegation. The questions then become: Is it that the policy was wrong? Is it that the people charged with enforcement or implementation of the policy were wrong? Or, was it the attitude of society which says it wants the policy but really does not care about the problem or is not so sure that it is a real problem and in fact says that there is nothing like having real good coke after dinner with friends in the neighbourhood?

Parents tell their kids they are not supposed to take coke, but they go to the living room, open a little drawer, take out the coke, put it on the table and consume it. What is the problem as the member sees it? I am sure he knows only too well from his past life what it is doing to society.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Madam Speaker, as a politician and justice minister in Manitoba I saw the top of the problem. I did not get to see what was happening on the street and why things were breaking down, but I think that there has been a reluctance on the part of politicians to address the issue and a reluctance in society generally to deal with the problem.

I speak outside the context of the urban riding in Winnipeg that I represented where the reality of the drug problem was much more evident. I look now at the wonderful riding of Provencher that I represent and see a reluctance sometimes to deal head on with the issue because it does not appear to affect the riding. Drug and alcohol problems arise in some rural areas. People move into urban ridings where drugs are more accessible and anonymity protects them.

We simply push the problem off but it grows. The most telling issue is when we speak to parents who previously may not have had any concern about the drug problem and suddenly one day realize that their child is addicted, that their brother is addicted or that another member of their family is addicted. Then the reality and the horror of drug addiction come home.

We have seen this trend in the nation. Whether we brought on the problem ourselves or whether we are victims, we need to deal with it. The legal framework, the enforcement policies and the social policies do not seem to be curtailing the problem. The problem is being fuelled and we need to address it.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Minister of Health]

Madam Speaker, I begin by saying that the member for Langley—Abbotsford who presented the motion this morning takes a position on most political issues with which I thoroughly disagree. In fact the policy differences between me and the member for Langley—Abbotsford are too numerous to mention.

However, in connection with the subject we are discussing today, I believe that member and I have a lot of common ground. He has suggested and I agree that it is time for the House to look broadly at the question of the factors underlying the non-medical use of drugs in Canada. He has suggested and I agree that it is time for the House to look at ways in which the Government of Canada can act either alone or in combination with other governments to address the underlying causes of the use of non-medical drugs.

It is also important that this examination be undertaken in a very non-partisan way. That is certainly the spirit in which the motion is presented and it is in that spirit that I intend to vote in favour of the motion.

In essence the member is proposing that a committee of the House examine what should be our national strategy in relation to the non-medical use of drugs. He is proposing that we look at an integrated and coherent approach to the use of illegal drugs in Canada. May I say the motion is entirely consistent with the policy and with the process the government supports.

I have had an opportunity to look at this issue both as a former minister of justice and attorney general and now as the Minister of Health. I can recall when I was minister of justice that I asked for the opportunity to spend time with the police forces around the country. In each of nine Canadian cities I road with police officers during the night shift as they contended with the issue of crime and safety on urban streets.

I have vivid memories of spending just such an evening with the Vancouver police department. We parked the car and we walked through the downtown east side. I can recall going through the alleys behind the facade of stores and hotels in downtown east side Vancouver and stepping over people who were lying prone in the alleys with needles stuck in their thighs. They were giving themselves injections of illegal drugs. They were lying helpless in the alleys.

I remember discussing with the police officers the role of the criminal justice system in relation to these people, as pathetic as they were, as heart wrenching as they were. The conclusion to which we all came was that this was a problem, at least when presented in that form, that was not best addressed by the criminal justice system because in truth it was a health issue.

Now as Canada's Minister of Health it is terribly important that I use the opportunity the member opposite has provided to marshal support of all members in looking critically at how we deal with the issue, how we can best use the resources available to all levels of government to deal with this difficult issue.

It does little good for those persons to be arrested, brought before a criminal court or imprisoned. Surely the better answer in the long run is to treat them, overcome the addiction and get them back into society. Surely the better answer in the long run is to prevent people from becoming addicted. I should like to speak to each of the elements of that approach in the few moments available to me today.

In the course of last fall's election campaign we as the Liberal Party at that time undertook to implement a national drug strategy to deal with both supply and demand and to crack down on organized crime to the extent to which it was involved in supplying the illegal drug market. We spoke during the campaign of prevention. We spoke of treatment. We spoke of rehabilitation. We spoke of enforcement and control.

We also talked about this as being an international issue and the need for research to better understand the nature of the challenge, and an evaluation to make sure that the steps taken by government are effective.

I came back last night from Geneva where I attended the annual assembly of the World Health Organization. I had occasion during the last few days, in the company of four or five members from other parties, to speak with ministers of health from around the world. On the list of items where we had a common interest, where we said we wanted to enlarge our collaboration, was the whole issue of the trafficking and the use of illegal drugs.

I found that all ministers of health from around the world, whether it was from Egypt or lsrael or from the United States, Wales or Mexico, talked about the need for international co-operation to share best practices and to work together toward finding more effective ways of dealing with addiction and the illegal use of drugs.

As the government forges a national drug strategy to respect our commitment during the election campaign, what better way to make sure we have the right balance among the intrinsic elements of that strategy than to put the matter before a committee of the House and get the best views of members from across the Chamber as to how we ought to proceed.

In the course of the election campaign we agreed also to devote some $420 million to support the national drug strategy. What better way to make sure that money will be well spent than to solicit the views of members of the House of Commons and have them look at the alternatives available.

I welcome the motion. I welcome the opportunity it provides in a non-partisan, constructive way for all members of the House to make sure that we act in a way that is going to be effective.

The urgency of the issue is obvious. I have some numbers to underscore that fact. The Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse tells us that there are 804 deaths per year as a result of illicit drug use in Canada. The city of Vancouver tells us that it is now at the point where, primarily because of the problems in the downtown east side, there are 147 overdose deaths per year in that city.

We know that in 1999 some 80,000 convictions were registered for drug offences under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. We know this is an increasing problems among young people. Studies of young Canadians in grades 7 to 13 show an increasing trend in the use of alcohol, cannabis, amphetamines, ecstasy and cocaine. This is a trend that cannot be ignored. It must spur us to action.

There is the cost. Quite apart from the human cost and the tragedy of wasted lives or wasted opportunities, it is estimated that in 1992 alcohol abuse and illicit drugs cost the Canadian economy over $9 billion.

It is in the face of that stark and troubling reality that we must put together a national strategy for dealing with the non-medical use of drugs which will make a difference. The strategy we have had in place since 1997 has four pillars. It deals with prevention, treatment, enforcement and harm reduction. It is intended to address both supply and demand and tackles the issue of substance abuse fundamentally from the perspective of health. It involves 11 departments of government, from the solicitor general and justice to foreign affairs and revenue, to heritage and transport. Each of those departments in their own way contributes to an overall effort. It involves also the provincial governments and municipal governments. Each level must contribute in some way to the solution.

Let me touch briefly upon each of the four elements to give the House some idea of what we are doing at present and identify the action that I believe we have to build upon if we are to make a difference.

First, in terms of prevention, this involves warning and educating young people, giving them the facts on which they can make sensible decisions about their own behaviour and their own conduct.

It also involves research to try to better understand what lies beneath the use of illicit drugs and indeed the tendency toward addiction. Are there health or social factors that we should know more about so that we can design strategies that are more effective?

I was pleased to see the solicitor general just last year open up a centre for research into addiction in Montague, Prince Edward Island so that we can answer some of these questions. Of course the Canadian Institute of Health Research and the Institute of Neuroscience, Mental Health and Addiction have been asked to look at exactly the same things, so that we can further understand the nature of the problem on an individual basis with which we are trying to deal.

The second element is treatment. I will draw the attention of the House to the fact that often these treatment options are best administered regionally or locally. It is for that reason that every year my department transfers $14.5 million to the provincial governments for alcohol and drug treatment and rehabilitation services. That money is combined with provincial funds to provide a service capacity on the ground that truly makes a difference. Apart from that, Health Canada funds treatment centres for first nations and Inuit people across Canada who have difficulty with substance abuse and addiction.

We are also funding local projects such as the million dollars that Health Canada provided for the downtown east side of Vancouver for the creation of a resource centre, a safe place for people to go to seek refuge from the street, to have access to social and health services and to take a time out from the threatening and very dangerous conditions that are sometimes found on the streets of that area.

Through the Department of Justice, we have also innovated the justice system by creating drug courts. In the city of Toronto special courts have been opened to deal with those who are charged with offences relating to non-medical drugs in circumstances where it is believed that intervention to encourage treatment and rehabilitation is more effective than simply processing individuals in the criminal system, resulting in a conviction and incarceration. I can tell the House that based on what we have learned in Toronto, we are looking at the question of whether that approach can be broadened to other parts of the country.

The third element is enforcement. The solicitor general and the Department of Justice have been developing strategies to focus on the traffickers of illegal drugs, working with foreign affairs to identify the sources of the illegal drugs and to find out whether there are ways working with other nations to choke off those sources.

The last element is harm reduction where we deal with the human circumstances of the addict. How can we cure the addiction as well as punishing the crime? How can we tackle some of the underlying social and health issues that are related to the addiction? Mayor Owen of Vancouver has shown particular leadership on this issue.

Confronted with the tragedy of the downtown east side, Mayor Owen last fall produced a very thoughtful and comprehensive paper identifying steps that could be taken in each of the areas of enforcement, prevention and harm reduction. He identified some innovative ideas which I understand were just put into final form by his municipal council the other evening. I intend to meet soon with Mayor Owen to talk about some of those ideas. I would also like to have the views of the other parties in the House as to whether they think that some of the proposals made in Mayor Owen's report would be helpful.

Let me also mention some of the steps being taken by our solicitor general in prisons where injection drug use has been identified as an issue. The solicitor general has been working with prison administration to try to put into practice some lessons learned from elsewhere about how to come to grips with that problem.

I welcome the motion and the initiative that lies behind it. People speak often about the partisan nature of debate in the House, but what should be brought to the attention of Canadians is that there are issues such as this.

There was the issue two weeks ago in relation to assisted human reproduction, cloning. There are also issues such as the safety of women in fertility clinics, the framework of principles to govern research when it comes to embryos, organ donation, illicit drug use, where all members of the House come to common ground. We are all worried about our children and our communities. We see the damage that can be done through the illicit trafficking in drugs and their use, and we are all focused on solutions that will work.

I listened with interest to the intervention this morning of the hon. member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough as he talked about the American approach. I share his views that the American style war on drugs with an army-like approach is not proving to be as effective as it had hoped and that a somewhat more nuanced and broader approach is needed. I think the elements of the drug strategy we have been talking about may provide that. Again, let us get a committee of the House to look at how those elements could be put together to be as effective as possible.

In fact the recent events in the United States concerning medical marijuana illustrate in many ways the differences between us. Members may have noted that just the other day the supreme court of the United States ruled that medical marijuana would not be permissible. Two years ago we announced we would make it available for medicinal purposes. With the assistance of the courts, we have come to understand better how that can be done lawfully. We now have proposed regulations that would provide for that on a very formal basis.

First, that is the way to go. I think it is supported by the Canadian public and perhaps illustrates some of the differences between our two countries.

I also listened with interest to the speech by the hon. member for Palliser this morning. He spoke about the useful work being done in the other place and regretted the duplication. While the other place has been doing some work on this, I do not see that as a reason for us not to act. We can take advantage of the Senate's work to date. We can perhaps co-ordinate some of the efforts. However the House has the perfect right as well, and the responsibility, to do its own work in this regard.

I will conclude by saying that I will support the motion. I look forward to working constructively with members on all sides of the House to make sure that we put this issue squarely before a committee and that we get back from that committee recommendations that will put us in a position to do the job that must be done for the Canadian people.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Madam Speaker, while I agree with many things the health minister has said, I disagree with one thing he said. He indicated that we were focused. That we are not.

[Elinor Caplan, Liberal, Thornhill, ON]

We are.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Already I am getting an argument, which is silly.

The fact is we have pilot projects going on all over the place. There are drug courts in Toronto. There are other areas looking for drug courts. There are programs of all sorts all over the place. There are safe shoot up sites.

I am not unduly criticizing the government. Hon. members should not take it wrong. I am saying we are not focused. That is why we need a special committee of the House of Commons that would try to focus on those things. If they cannot even simply agree with that over there, then there is a problem with the understanding of what is wrong in Canada.

There are safe shoot up sites. There are needle exchanges in some places. There are communities in the country that are looking for needle exchanges but do not know what to do. They do not know whether needle exchanges are good or bad. Our prisons are a good example. There is a project in one prison but not in another prison. Drug cartels are in some prisons but not in others.

In my opinion the country needs a RITE commission, rehabilitation, intervention, treatment and enforcement, which the minister talked about. There are some RITE commissions in some provinces. The federal government does not have one. Other provinces do not have them. Some say they work. Some say they do not.

The exercise here is not to debate whether it works or whether it does not, it is just to do what the minister said, and that is to focus what is going on in this country so that we can look at all the ramifications and all the projects to see if we can get something conclusive and provide leadership.

In fact, Mayor Owen's proposal said exactly that. I have been familiar with this proposal for well over six to eight months. I have been dealing with downtown east side businessmen in assessing various projects within that project.

I would like a comment from the minister to see if he agrees with me that it is a problem of focus, not so much a problem of certain things going astray or certain things not being done. It is a problem of various communities all over the country really trying whatever they can to dislodge the problem and not being sure where they are going.

I would love to have time to debate this one, but I would ask the minister to comment.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, I do not disagree with what the member has said, but what we have to overcome is the tendency in Canada, because of the division of responsibility between the federal and provincial governments, to have piecemeal action.

What can easily happen in Canada is that the Government of Canada can have some ideas in the area of health, the delivery being a provincial responsibility, but provincial governments take a different approach and we end up with a patchwork. That is why we have pilot projects: the Government of Canada cannot deliver health services. Nor would we want to. That is provincial. We in the government sometimes fund pilot projects hoping that we can demonstrate whether something works. If it does, we make that information available to provinces, which might adopt the practice.

However, the member is right in that there is a patchwork at the moment. What we need is a co-ordinated national approach whereby we bring the provinces on board and come to some common ground as to how best to prevent, to treat, to deal with enforcement and to deal with harm reduction.

I would hope that the special committee the member has proposed today would develop a strategy for an effective, uniform and pan-Canadian approach so that we do not leave out some people.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, I want to compliment the Minister of Health for his non-partisan tone in terms of setting the base for what is to be surely a very important debate.

I was a little surprised, though, when listening to the member for Langley—Abbotsford. I recall that in December 1999 when we tried and in fact went ahead with putting a research addiction facility in Charlottetown under correctional services, he opposed it. He said it was an outrageous thing. Yet in the party platform of the reformed Alliance people in 2000, they said “...we will also increase funding for rehabilitation and education, and treat addicts through immediate access to rehabilitation facilities”. So again we see the kind of contradiction that those reformed Alliance people have on this very important issue.

My question to the Minister of Health is this. He spoke about the Toronto experiment in terms of treatment and rehabilitation and how this might be a template, perhaps even a blueprint, for other centres. I wonder if he could elaborate on that, because it seems to me that at some of these grassroots kinds of facilities where community people are involved at the very basis in a very meaningful way, we end up developing and building things that could be of national importance.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, I think the experiment in Toronto can help. I have had correspondence from members of the criminal bar in Toronto who are very enthusiastic about what we are learning there. They are asking us, first of all, to continue in Toronto and then to broaden the experiment beyond that.

As I mentioned earlier, what it is intended to do is bring together a number of responses to this problem. I practised law for some 20 years, and while I did not do a lot of criminal work, in the early years of my practice I did. I can recall appearing on behalf of people accused of drug offences who were themselves addicts. I cannot imagine a less appropriate response to someone who is in the grip of an addiction than the criminal justice system. It just does not work. What that person needs is treatment. What that person needs is support to overcome a health problem.

That is what we are trying to illustrate in the Toronto drug courts. I believe that we will learn lessons we can apply in other parts of the country. I know that the Minister of Justice is extremely interested in looking at what we are learning there and if possible broadening it to other parts of the country.

It is an example of what we can learn. It is an example of where the Government of Canada has a role to play, because we do bring the prosecutions under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Whereas ordinarily prosecutions are a provincial matter, in drug matters they are federal. It is a place where we can make a difference and we hope we will do so.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, in keeping with the minister's comments on this issue of how we create greater synergy between our justice system and our health system, I would be very interested in hearing his comments in that regard with respect to current sentencing availability in our judiciary.

A rational extension of what the minister seems to be alluding to would be to have available to judges in this country the equivalent of mandatory treatment. This would also include of course a significant investment in facilities, treatment facilities in particular, where attendance would be mandatory. Rather than having people languishing in the traditional penal system where in most instances no treatment is available and they are simply biding their time, mandatory treatment would be part of that sentence to be served. In such instances an individual, I would submit, would be far better served, as would society, if that were to be encompassed as part of the actual sentence itself.

Not to follow the example of the member opposite with respect to the partisanship in this debate, because I think it does detract from this, why are we waiting? What has been the holdup on the part of governments generally to address this issue?

We do know that there has been good work commenced in the other place, but this seems to be something of such pressing concern, something that is so broad, so absolutely systemic now in all regions of the country, is this not the area where we should be focusing our attention immediately? This committee would be a good start, but what has been the delay, other than the thorny issues, I suppose, that tend to stem from this in Canadians' minds? We have to start acting with real diligence and real haste on this issue.

[Allan Rock, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Madam Speaker, very briefly, I have been working with justice, solicitor general and other departments trying to put some meat on the bones of the election campaign commitment for a drug strategy. We expect to be coming forward with a strategy, at least a proposed strategy. I think the committee that is being proposed today can help us in that regard.

Second, the member talks about compulsory treatment. I believe that in the drug court in Toronto that is the kind of approach they are taking. Obviously having that available in every court in the appropriate cases would be ideal. Often those social services are not in place. Sometimes it is a question of money. Sometimes it is a question of organization.

Let me say very briefly that he is right and that is the ideal we should work toward. If we get all governments on the same page and we have the money necessary and the professional treatment available, I think that would be ideal. I think it is the best way of responding to someone with an addiction.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to this very important issue. I want to thank my hon. colleague from Langley—Abbotsford for having the foresight to bring this motion forward to the Canadian Alliance caucus and I thank my colleagues there for understanding its importance and choosing it for today's supply day motion.

I speak to this with sincerity and with the earnest concern that we move forward on this. I am very pleased to hear the comments in support of the motion from the government side of the House. It makes me very happy to feel that we can work together on some things and move forward.

I entered the political arena last fall in the election campaign. One thing I addressed in my campaign was the idea of public safety in regard to crime, young offenders and those kinds of things, so I speak to this in an effort to respond to my constituents in Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre.

I would like to share a couple of stories because when we talk about drugs and the use of illicit drugs we are talking about the impacts on lives. I am thinking of a friend of my youngest son who played on the same sports teams. They were both quite talented in their pursuit of sports. That young lad became entangled in drug usage before completing high school. It went on for a number of years. Now in his early twenties, he is hopefully just beginning to come out of the problem he has had with illicit drugs. I spent time talking with his parents. Their hearts ached when they saw their young son going through that.

I think of other families in my town with whom I have spent time, families with children of high school age who would lie in bed for hours and hours on end refusing to get up because of the drugs they had been on. I think of another friend who was a very special friend to me. I had the pleasure of uniting him and his wife in marriage, working with his family and seeing it grow. However, as time went on I saw the drug habit he could not shake finally destroy the family. He is one of those who ended up in prison because of his efforts to support his drug habit.

It has been almost 28 years since the Commission of Inquiry into Non-Medical Use of Drugs tabled the Le Dain report. It addressed many good issues and contained many good recommendations, but we all know that times have changed drastically since 1973. The proliferation of drugs in our society and the ease with which they can be obtained is not news to any of us. We see it wherever we go.

Recently the United Nations' International Narcotics Control Board tabled its annual report. The report found a disturbing increase in the production and abuse of synthetic drugs in Canada. The report found that the illicit manufacturing of methamphetamine has increased in the past year. Law enforcement agencies have uncovered a record number of production laboratories throughout our own country.

It is clear that Canada does need an updated, comprehensive strategy to deal with the significant problem we have in our country today. Our supply day motion asks the government to deal comprehensively with this complex issue by establishing the committee. I say again that I am thrilled to hear that the government agrees with this.

There are few things that make me angry and there are times when it is okay to be angry. Members may have heard the story that it is okay to be angry if we are angry in the right way at the right or the wrong things. I am angry because of the tragedies I have referred to that are being brought about in our families in Canada.

It makes me angry that there are people out there who make their living by selling drugs and destroying lives. It also makes me angry to see people willingly or for some unknown reason become so involved in drug use that they are a burden to society.

It makes me angry to have to spend the money we do on prevention. It makes me angry that society must do so for a relatively few people. It makes me angry to spend money to enforce regulations that are for these people's own good.

The costs, manpower, time and facilities required for rehab and treatment attempts make me angry. However getting angry about a situation means it is time to do all one can to remedy it.

In the year 1997-98, in Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, just under 4,000 people were treated in the drug and alcohol treatment centres of Regina. A recent report looked at alcohol and drug abuse in the Regina health district. It found that the most commonly abused drugs in North American cities are readily obtained on the streets of little old Regina, in the middle of the prairies where it is supposed to be safe to live. The drugs most often used are a combination of both Talwin and Ritalin, sometimes referred to as the poor man's heroin.

The report stated that injection drug usage is quite common, methadone is available on the streets and illicit drug use is a considerable factor in many violent and property crimes in Regina. The figures would go higher but we cannot include those that relate to young offenders.

I will read from an article that appeared in the Regina Leader Post in February. It stated:

Recently, a United Nations agency has criticized Canada for its lax attitude toward illegal growers of cannabis and failure to control illicit production of drugs such as “ice” and “ecstasy”.

The report finds a disturbing increase in the production and abuse of synthetic drugs in Canada.

The illicit manufacture of methamphetamine—or ice—has increased, it says. In the past year, law enforcement agencies have uncovered a record number of clandestine laboratories.

Some labs producing MDMA—or ecstasy—were found in middle-class suburban neighbourhoods, especially in central Canada. The laboratories were run by people with no criminal records or connections.

In its annual report Herbert Schaepe, the board's secretary, said: “The board is not happy with the controls established in Canada; the Canadian government is not yet controlling, for example, one of the main precursors of methamphetamine—ice”.

Precursors are substances used in the processing or manufacture of narcotic drugs.

The board is calling on Canada to make greater efforts to comply with its obligations, under the 1988 UN convention against illicit drugs, to prevent “Canadian territory from being used to divert chemicals for the illicit manufacture of drugs in other countries”.

The UN report says there has been an increase in the amount of cocaine and heroin smuggled into Canada from countries such as Mexico. Last year, Canadian law enforcement agencies intercepted 156 kilograms of heroin.

I am happy to stand and speak to the supply day motion brought forth by my Alliance colleagues. The hon. parliamentary secretary some moments ago mentioned the Canadian Alliance policy on drugs and crime.

I will point out a couple of things from our policy paper. It mentions that one of every two federal inmates in Canada were under the influence of alcohol or drugs when they committed the crime for which they were incarcerated. Fifty per cent were on drugs or alcohol.

We need a national strategy to reduce drug usage, one that works in partnership with provincial and municipal governments and incorporates strategies at the community level. This proposal comes directly out of the Canadian Alliance policy paper. The Alliance favours working with the provinces to develop and implement a national drug strategy that will work effectively at the street level. The street level is where a lot of work needs to be done.

Recently I was privileged to hear a police chief from the United States of America outline what happens in the downward spiral of a community. He pointed out that when a criminal or drug element goes into a community the community at first tolerates and lives with it, although not with pleasure or willingness, but after a period of tolerance it tends to become apathetic.

Tolerance is one thing but apathy is another. It is a downward step where the community stops caring about what is going on. It begins to trust the criminal element as much as it does the law enforcement element. It becomes apathetic to what is going on.

In the next downward step the community begins to defend the criminal activity. We see that over and over again. Communities begin to defend not only the criminal element but the use of drugs. This needs to be addressed by the committee so that it can deal with community attitudes and help create a more unfriendly environment for those who do hard core drugs and traffic drugs to our youth.

The Alliance policy paper points out our desire to work in partnership with the provinces to promote the use of drug courts. A number of members opposite have mentioned the Toronto drug court and I will say a little about that in a moment. However, parliament needs to address these concerns.

The Toronto drug court is the first of its kind in Canada. I understand it is patterned after similar things in the United States. It is a joint venture involving the Ontario court of justice, the Department of Justice, the Government of Canada's national strategy on community safety and crime prevention, the Centre For Addiction and Mental Health, Toronto based representatives of the criminal justice system, the Toronto police service, Toronto public health, and various city and community based services and agencies. It is funded by the national strategy on community safety and crime prevention as a pilot project.

This does not relate to the committee we are talking about establishing. However, I have visited the drug court and it seems to have been very successful. I hope the hon. Minister of Health is aware that funding for the project is nearing the end. If funding is not extended before the end of the trial period it will have to stop admitting patients.

I would encourage the extension of the drug court because it seems a helpful and pleasant program. The drug court brings together elements within the community. I was amazed when the Toronto drug court told us the number of agencies and people that have worked together to assist it.

Let us get back to our job here as members of parliament. We need to view the work of the committee as something very important. I hope the committee will be given the freedom to look at all aspects of the issue and at legislation. We are sometimes hesitant to move and do things differently but the committee needs that freedom. It needs to look at strategy and determine if there are better approaches.

It was mentioned a moment ago that the war on drugs in the United States has not worked very well. However the answer is not to simply throw it away and legalize everything. The answer is somewhere in between. It is my hope that the proposed committee will examine all possibilities and develop better approaches for enforcing or adjusting drug laws as needed.

Penalties, treatments and all these things need to be worked through but they need to be worked through with a sense of responsibility, urgency and co-operation.

In closing I will say a bit more about the Toronto drug treatment court. It is my hope, as I mentioned earlier, that this model will be extended to a broader range of things than simply drug treatment courts. We could apply it to young offenders and some elements of the criminal code.

It was my privilege to sit in on a healing circle in Wilcox, Saskatchewan a few weeks ago which has taken this approach with young offenders. Young offenders are brought into the presence of their peers, teachers and those in authority, and each person is given the opportunity to state how the crime affected them. It was very positive to see that.

I will skip a full description of the drug court but let me say that after being in the drug court a couple of weeks ago it was not like being in court. It is like the difference between a funeral and a wedding. This was more like a wedding. There was celebration. One young lady came in very excited because she had gotten through another week without succumbing to the temptation of drugs. The judge commended her. The other offenders who were sitting awaiting their turn all cheered and clapped. It was a real joy to see them celebrate that victory with her.

I then saw one who had failed. He came before the judge and had to admit his failures. The judge had to address his failures. There was no defiance or anger when the offender received his warning. He went out of there determined to try again to do what he needed to do.

I commend the government for these kinds of projects. This type of committee needs to look at these solutions and extend them as much as it can. We put too many people in jail who simply come out madder. I would love to pursue these kinds of things through this type of committee.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Solicitor General of Canada]

Madam Speaker, it is refreshing and enlightening to hear the member opposite talk about the good work being done in Toronto by the drug court. He made some very wise comments. Obviously he has studied the matter and understands it. He is to be congratulated for bringing that enlightened view. It is rare among the Alliance people.

I also congratulate him in terms of the recognition of alcohol and drugs and the role they play with respect to criminal activity. It underscores the good work that Correctional Service Canada is doing in this all important area dealing with rehabilitation and working with inmates in a very meaningful way. It underscores the need to ensure that the right things are done with the programs that are in place so that the chances are there for people to reform, improve and do the kinds of things that are required. I want to indicate to the member that those points were very well taken.

I have two questions for the hon. member. First, does the hon. member personally support the medical use of marijuana in Canada as it has been proposed? Second, does he support the city of Vancouver's proposal for safe injection sites? Those are two fairly straightforward questions and I would be interested in the hon. member's views.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, those are two more things that make me angry because they put me in a position of having to choose between the lesser evil. I have been slow to adjust my thinking. I have come to the conclusion that a number of medically prescribed drugs are also addictive and if misused can be totally out of place in a person's life. I am not an enthusiastic supporter of cannabis for medical purposes but I understand the wisdom of it and can live with it.

I am sorry but I forgot the other question.

[Lynn Myers, Liberal, Waterloo—Wellington, ON]

Madam Speaker, it was with respect to the city of Vancouver's safe injection sites.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, that too is hard for me to live with. Again it is one of the lesser evils for which I am trying to learn the advantages. I ask the member to bear with me.

[Werner Schmidt, Canadian Alliance, Kelowna, BC]

Madam Speaker, I also commend the hon. member for his comments and his presentation this afternoon.

We need to recognize another point. We heard the Minister of Health and other members this morning say that we have to study this problem. We have had people explain in detail how serious the problem really is. The hon. member who just spoke has a tremendous background in the business of dealing with people, particularly in a pastoral sense. I believe that in another life he knew all about those kinds of things.

Are we dealing here with a situation where people are unwilling to face the reality of the situation? We had a drug policy in 1987 and 1996. We have had laws changed and programs introduced. We have had all kinds of things happening, yet the use of illicit drugs in our society has increased.

Obviously the programs and policies are not working and the law is not working. Could one of the reasons be that people do not want it to work? We talk about and we lament the fact that families are being broken up and that people's lives are being destroyed. However, are we really serious about dealing with the problem?

Is this kind of committee a way in which we can sensitize society to finally admit that we have a problem and that it is society's problem. We have come to the point where we are saying that it is a problem but that it is not our problem. I wonder if what we need as parents, as leaders in the community, as pastors and as teachers is a shift in attitude. Would the hon. member respond to that?

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, that was exactly what I was referring to when I spoke about the decline of a community. It goes from tolerance to apathy to defence. I believe we could demonstrate that it has happened in terms of drug usage, not in an overall total way but in a very spotted way. We have those who would now defend, who do not care and who tolerate, but I believe the committee would really need to take a strong look in order to give us the actual truth as to the dangers of these drugs.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Madam Speaker, a little while ago the Parliamentary Secretary to the Solicitor General of Canada, who tends to be far to the partisan side in the House, which is bad for the debate, indicated that I was against the development of a drug research centre in Prince Edward Island.

The reason for my opposition was that millions of dollars would be put into the wrong thing. A building, which would last 40 years, would be built in order to study something that could be studied in our universities, in the House of Commons or somewhere else. We should be looking at education, rehabilitation, detoxification and so on.

Once a report is tabled in the House of Commons by the committee, what would the member expect would happen to the report? I sincerely hope the report would not come here to collect dust. It is far too important for that. I would like to get an indication from him as to the value of the report.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Madam Speaker, one of the values I hope would come from such a report would be the opportunity for us to address some of the gaps in legislation. During my speech I did not have enough time to give the list that I received from the Toronto drug court crown prosecutor. He indicated a number of gaps in the legislation that needed to be amended in order to properly operate such an alternative court system.

There needs to be a willingness to make some adjustments in the legislation. I hope that as the report comes out it would make adjustments at every level to what we are doing. The report cannot sit on somebody's shelf to get stale after two or three years. I hope it would be a report that would stir parliament to action.