Mr. Speaker, I am glad that was resolved in an amicable manner.
I should read the motion again so that anybody who has forgotten exactly what we are discussing here today in terms of the motion will have their minds refreshed. The motion reads:
That, in the opinion of this House, the government should immediately amend the Criminal Code to create a separate category of offences and punishments for computer hackers and persons who wilfully or maliciously export computer viruses, both of whose activities disrupt the normal conduct of electronic business in Canada.
I decided I would join this debate because of an interesting first hour that was concluded a couple of weeks ago. I noticed during that debate that the government side at first did not put up any speakers. It put up a couple of speakers right at the end and more or less said the whole thing was silly because there were already areas of the criminal code that dealt with the issue. Those speakers quoted areas of the criminal code that were introduced in 1985.
The first thing that struck me was that governments have never been known for their forward looking legislation. How could it be that way back in 1985, when a lot of people did not even know what a computer was, the government had such a far seeing attitude to legislation that they incorporated something in the criminal code to take care of computer viruses that would not appear until the year 2000?
I took a closer look at this and am not quite sure what the government's motives are. The way the government is approaching the motion is to say there is no need for it because it can be covered by the area of the criminal code that deals with mischief.
What sort of deterrent is it to hackers and people who propagate viruses on the Internet that they might be prosecuted for mischief? Even if the penalty, a maximum of 10 years, is reasonable it does not carry any feeling of deterrence when it is called mischief. It is mischief to call it mischief.
These are very serious crimes. The fact that the private members' business committee, which determines whether or not a motion will be votable, determined that this motion will be votable indicates to me that the committee considers this a very serious topic. The government members present, who dominate that committee, obviously felt there was nothing in the criminal code that dealt with the issue in enough detail that it should be dismissed.
We then have the evidence that the member who proposed the motion gave in his speech. He said that police are frustrated because they too feel that the present provisions of the criminal code do not deal with the issue. They are faced with charging people with mischief instead of charging people with something that has a much more serious connotation.
I would request that the government take a closer look at the position it is taking on the issue and at its motives. What are its motives for not wanting to include something a little more specific that would act as a deterrent, that could be used by the police if they were talking to somebody suspected of being involved in this sort of crime? Instead of simply calling it mischief, police should be able to tell such people that section such and such of the criminal code deals with what they are doing and that they are putting themselves into a position where they could be subject to prosecution.
All of us who have become used to working on computers over the last few years would have had some sort of experience with hacking or computer viruses. I have had experience with both. I have a computerized database set up between my riding and the Hill. I do not use Microsoft Access which is the most common system here. I use a program called Maximizer which co-ordinates the databases among my riding, my laptop computer and Ottawa.
If I am on a flight from Vancouver to Ottawa I type up my next report for the North Shore News , a local newspaper. When I get to Ottawa I simply go to a telephone line and, using dial-up networking, update my main office in Vancouver with whatever I have done. That office is called the Superpeer. It updates Ottawa.
These activities go on all through the day. It happens automatically every night, but through the day we can force these updates. At any time I have three complete databases which contain all the information about all the contacts we have had with constituents over the years, every letter we have ever written, every fax we have ever sent and every e-mail we have ever sent. It is all in these three different places.
Because part of that is done through dial-up networking, some hacker trying to find phone lines with computers on the end of them found one of my computers in Vancouver and tried to hack into our system.
Luckily we had a pretty good firewall set up so no problem was caused. However the opportunity exists for someone to do it. Our records from the computer indicate that somebody dialled in a number of times and spent up to two hours trying to break into our system.
That is serious. It was not just a passing, spur of the moment thing that someone did. It was a concerted effort to break in perhaps without even knowing what computer it was. Presumably they knew it was a federal government computer because the telephone number in Vancouver started with 666. Incidentally many people say that number is appropriate for the federal government in that 666 is the sign of the devil or the sign of the beast. They must have known it was a federal government computer.
That was one experience. Luckily it did not turn out too badly. However I had another experience. I brought my laptop to the Hill and connected to the network one day last year before the last election. Somehow a virus had got into the Library of Parliament system and it got on to my computer.
At that stage I did not have an updated InocuLAN. We all have InocuLAN virus detection on our systems, but I did not have the updated version. The virus ran amok on my computer. It took about three days to get it rectified. It was very serious. Thank goodness I had the other two databases in Ottawa and North Vancouver so that we were able to erase what was on my computer and start again.
These are serious problems. They are not just mischief. They are not something that can be covered by the section of the criminal code that the government spouts, something that was passed back in 1985, a catch-all phrase to catch little bits and pieces that might be a problem.
We need a deterrent, something that can be publicized in the media saying that parliament has passed a law respecting a certain section of the criminal code so that anyone launching a virus or attempting to hack into a computer is subject to a penalty and a fine. To do something more substantial like that is a much better idea.
On balance we should support the motion. It was made votable for a good reason. It is tough to get motions and private members' bills made votable. The member achieved it in this case. We should support what he is proposing and try to get an extra line or two into the criminal code.
In closing, I say again that I do not understand the government's motives. How hard can it be to pop something into one of the omnibus bills it has coming through here? It could add an extra line to the criminal code. It does it all the time, so what is the problem? I hope government members will rise today and tell us exactly why they have a problem in this regard. If they cannot come up with a good reason they should be voting for Motion No. 80.