Debates of June 5th, 2001

Patent Act

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, all I can say about that intervention is that the truth hurts. I am quoting into the record the words of the Minister of Industry.

The moral flexibility that has been so common in this place, particularly on the part of that minister, is one that does offend people. It should offend the member opposite as well, because all the frothing and terrible finger pointing that went on in opposition among the current Liberals is really something to behold now. It is a foghorn type of voice that we hear from the Minister of Industry and the real shame is that coastal communities back in Newfoundland are without foghorns while we have a perfectly good one here.

It is important to focus not only on the hypocrisy but on the merits of the bill, given what the member opposite said. There is a certain degree of merit in allowing these pharmaceutical companies to be consistent and to be in a position where they can afford themselves patent protection. That is what this legislation comes down to at the end of the day.

Irrespective of those earlier positions, the government has, as it has done before, recognized the wisdom in following the policies put in place by the previous administration. Even though it was against them at the time and made great hay by pointing out how terrible it would be, it has now embraced them. It is encouraging to see that the truth has come through and that the merits of a lot of those policies which were so vilified are now becoming recognized as the right ones for the country.

With that in mind, the genesis of those types of drugs and that type of research and development, which allows these types of treatments to come to fruition, is what is really important here. We have to ensure that Canada will play a leading and pivotal role in the production of these types of drugs which certainly are meant to address in a very specific way the human ailments that exist. As we speak, there also are yet undiscovered pharmaceutical drugs with which scientists continue to experiment and continue to strive to discover. This is what is important. If we are to foster a very important and very critical industry within this country we have to be consistent. We have to be prepared to open that door to the same protections that exist elsewhere.

That is why in 1991 the Progressive Conservative Party moved in that direction. That is why we will support this bill, as we did in its introduction phase in the Senate of Canada, the other place. It is in fact to allow the benefits to flow, to recognize the importance that can be reached in this country in terms of making those drugs available and affordable and making them welcome on our market that we would be supporting Bill S-17. This research and development practice that currently exists in our country is one that we have to be extremely proud of. This is an industry in which Canadians can and do play a very leading role.

To that end we would embrace this move for consistency, this move toward ensuring Canada will be a leader and an effective player in this market. Bill S-17 does just that. It is a bill that recognizes the need for market competitiveness and the need for encouragement for our own pharmaceutical industry. It is one that is inviting and open to those who choose to come and participate in that market in this country.

We will be supporting this legislation. We look forward to this bill passing this House and becoming law in Canada.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the comments made by the Conservative member. He was quick to point out the hypocrisy or the flip-flop of the Liberals in the House. It is something we all enjoy doing because it is such a transparent and obvious development.

However the key issue in this debate is really this: how do we deal with escalating drug prices in this country? How do we deal with the fact that for many Canadians access to necessary medication is just not a reality? It is all well and good for the Conservatives to chastise the Liberals and not accept responsibility for the current situation we are in without giving some solution and some explanation.

My question for the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough is this one. What are the solutions that his party is prepared to offer in terms of bringing down the prices of drugs and ensuring that every citizen in our country today has access to necessary medications for their own health and well-being?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for that question. I know she has been very much a participant in this issue, in this debate, and her question is relevant.

How do we address this issue of escalating drug costs? One way to do that is to ensure that those drugs are being produced here in Canada, at home, ensuring that there will be thousands of jobs provided through this industry. I believe that the current market will show that drugs are 40% less expensive now in Canada compared to the United States.

The other element is with respect to the World Trade Organization itself. There is indication in the ruling that the impact of the ruling over an eight year period is very much aimed at ensuring that pharmaceutical prices do remain low and that Canada will continue to have access to these affordable drugs.

The background vaunts the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board as having “the mandate to ensure that prices of patent medicines for sale in Canada are not excessive”. There are specific provisions in place to address just the issue the hon. member raises. I would suggest that participating in the market, ensuring that Canadians are producing these drugs at home and that we do not have to always go abroad to access and to reach the available levels, in and of itself is certainly aimed at keeping the prices down.

I would suggest that the efforts being made to try to prevent this legislation from coming into being and to try to expand the market to include the generic manufacturers could be better spent lobbying and ensuring that the pharmaceutical producers in the first instance are aware certainly of their moral obligation. If need be, the government would have to intervene to ensure that those levels are at an affordable rate and available to those most in need.

I agree that this has to be the crux of the debate. I do not have all the answers as to how we can ensure availability and low prices but I would suggest that the WTO has taken some steps in that direction. The government itself has to be continually reminded, and hounded on occasion, to make sure there are affordable drugs, particularly drugs aimed at preventive measures and the treatment of life threatening illnesses.

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough did mention, much to the dissatisfaction of some members across the way, the present Minister of Industry's outrage back in the late eighties when the Conservative government of the day brought in patent legislation. He quoted some of the comments the present Minister of Industry made at the time.

I would like to know why there has been a big flip-flop. Has it something to do with the reality of governing and the fact that the patent legislation did act in the fashion we thought it would? In fact it did bring thousands of pharmaceutical jobs to Canada and preserved what we had.

As you well know, Mr. Speaker, being a member of parliament very close to Montreal, we did establish a pharmaceutical research industry in that city that is one of the big engines of the Montreal economy, not to mention those in Mississauga and Toronto.

I believe the legislation did what we said it would do. It preserved jobs, created more jobs and is obviously an industry we can count on in terms of its successes, not to mention the medical successes. Would this stark reality be one of the reasons the present minister might have changed his position on the bill?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his intervention. I know that both personally and in his duties here as a member of parliament and a former health critic, he has followed the issue consistently and has spoken out on the issue on numerous occasions.

His question focuses on why people change their minds but more so on the partisan atmosphere we see here, which sometimes leads members in opposition to act irresponsibly, to go outside the bounds of constructive criticism or even sometimes warranted criticism.

The minister himself has established a record of moral outrage and righteous indignation on issues he now embraces and has publicly said he embraces. In fact he was heard recently outside of Canada directly congratulating the former prime minister, Brian Mulroney, on the introduction of the free trade agreement and suggesting he was wrong in opposing it.

It is refreshing to see an hon. member actually admit he was wrong. It happens so rarely that it is almost refreshing to people's ears to hear someone say “I was wrong. Based on the information I had at the time, I made those comments and I regret making those comments. Perhaps if I had had the benefit of hindsight and judgment I might have made a different comment”.

It happens very rarely, but the Minister of Industry has a long track record of clamouring, making a great deal of partisan noise and then completely reversing himself when poised for and given the mantle of power.

It is a reminder for us in opposition that we have to be careful, thoughtful, learned and sometimes measured in our criticisms of government. It is a reminder for us to make sure that we do a little research and not just sound off every time the government introduces something. There is a responsibility in opposition just as there is in government to make thoughtful interventions, to press the government on issues and to ensure that positions are backed with sound judgment and research. If that were to happen I think the atmosphere and attitudes we need here would certainly be more digestible and acceptable to Canadians.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I want to come back to the issue around the Conservative policy and also address the issue that the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough refuses to comment on. That is the very negative impact on health care in Canada today and the prices of drugs as a result of the Mulroney government's decision to dismantle what was then considered to be one of the best drug laws and best patent protection systems around, which ensured that not only were Canadian companies competitive internationally, but were able to provide reasonable access to Canadians.

The facts are very clear with regard to Bill C-22 and Bill C-91, that Mulroney government really jettisoned legislation that ensured competition between foreign and domestic drug companies, served most Canadians well. The only thing that has gone up since the Mulroney legislation is the prices and the profit margins for the big corporations.

Would the member account for that kind of failed policy and indicate whether he is now prepared to get with it and support us in opposing this bill?

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I guess the short answer is no. I put my comments on the record. I would be mirroring the political tact of the Minister of Industry if I was to stand up 30 seconds later and completely reverse myself. I am not prepared to do that.

I commend the hon. member for the passion and the position she has staked out for her party and her constituents. I guess it is a matter of debate. I would suggest the record will show that in the long run this is the position Canada should pursue and is one that the Progressive Conservative Party supports.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was heartened to hear the last member address the debate by mentioning that perhaps we in opposition would want to do some research. I am not in opposition, thank God. I am tempted to be flippant and ask when that will start, but I am a little more disciplined now, so I will not ask. I will exercise that discipline. I am simply thinking out loud.

Bill S-17 is a bill designed to bring Canada into compliance with World Trade Organization dictates. We have heard that from members on this side and in a rare moment from members on the opposition side. I am not one of those people who agrees with that, by the way, but I am on the government side and I have fought the good fight. I did not win that good fight, but neither has Canada nor many other countries, because they have weighed into balance that the advantages of participation in the WTO far exceed the disadvantages.

That having been said, our government is attempting to bring legislation in line with the dictates of the WTO. What that does is open up our legislation for scrutiny and remediation. In my view, this is one of the cases where the opening up of the issues relative to patent protection affords us an opportunity to take a look at the issues which need to be examined and take appropriate action.

Contrary to my previous colleague who has taken great opportunities to slag the character of one of our ministers, I am will not engage in any personality reflections. What I will do is suggest that the minister, who just underwent a huge attack by the opposition members on a personal character basis, has already given his commitment, as recognized by the member for Peace River, that there will be an opening up of the regulations in order to address those issues, which may appear to be lacking at this moment.

Let me address the issue of patent protection. I was on both sides of the House and on both sides of the debate when we debated Bill C-91 and when we reviewed the regulations.

I do not suggest for a moment that I share the same sort of self-confidence as the member who have spoken on this with such expert demeanour. However, I have learned a bit about the regulations and how the industry works.

The debate should address the workings of the industry, the consequences to the consumer, policies relative to health care, and policies related to research and development. That means a whole array of educational policies, even though that sounds like a provincial area, as they relate to institutions that provide the research and development necessary for industries, like the pharmaceutical and biotechnological industries, of which to avail themselves and provide growth.

If we are to have a reasoned and reasonable debate on the issues relative to Bill S-17, then we need to examine the successes both of the legislation and the regulation, as well as what the consequences, intended or otherwise, might be as a result of legislation that has been brought before the House.

Much has been made of the importance of providing patent protection for companies that engage in the development of intellectual properties. I do not think there is anyone who questions that a creator of something deserves the right to profit from the commercialization of that invention. We are really talking about the commercialization of inventions that may not necessarily be in the possession of the institution that files the patent. The governments of any country share in some of that contribution to the development of those intellectual properties. They do it willingly because it is an important element of growth.

I sat on both the industry and health committees when the patent prices review board came before them and outlined what the outcome was of this investment in an industry for the creation of new product. I am not making a distinction between generic and patent. It was shocking. As of 1999, Canada ranked dead last in providing brand new, innovative pharmaceutical products. We were well behind countries like Belgium, the Benelux countries, Italy, Ireland and England.

The reason I can enunciate those countries is because under these very generous patent protection conditions, which are available in other countries as well, Canada has been able to claim one product that can be classified as new and innovative. This is thanks to all the research and development done by those industries.

When I hear the discussions on needing to have this money to develop a research and development industry, does that mean wet lab? Does that mean pure innovation? Does that mean that we have to go through the second and third phase clinical trials process, plus the advertising associated, plus the other expenses, administrative mostly, associated with getting a product on the market?

We have a fairly rigorous system for getting a product on the market because the Government of Canada, irrespective of its political stripe, is governed by one issue and one issue only. For a pharmaceutical product to go on the market, it must first, be safe and second, be effective. Until those two are proven, nothing goes on the market. The process for getting a notice of compliance is rather rigorous. That is where some of the expense is.

As for research and development on the wet lab side, these companies are looking for places where the ideas are percolating, where concepts can be bought and the initial steps of research and development can be had for a song, otherwise they would not be good business people. It does not matter who the people are or where they are from.

The government over the last eight years has provided an enormous amount of money for research and development to universities and the medical science institutes and hospitals associated with them, to develop that kind of an environment. As Canadian citizens we expect an industry that is responsible enough to ensure that product comes on the market in a timely fashion and in a price range that is affordable both by the marketplace and by the patients who will hopefully profit by its consumption.

I am not sure that has happened. I looked at what had happened over the course of the last seven years in terms of prices. More important, I looked at the market share by the patent holders, as opposed to the non-patent product producers and the generic producers. Sometimes they are all one and the same.

We went through a huge debate in the House in the early nineties, as the members opposite well know. The government of the day decided it would institute Bill C-91. As a result, the patent protection was supposed to go up to 20 years. Without going into all the details around the issue of the government, the one that preceded it said it wanted to create a competitive patent industry to ensure that prices would come down. It said it would develop a research centre industry in Canada and that it would make these pharmaceuticals available to a broader spectrum of the public.

Those governments adopted a series of legislation, in particular one that allowed Canadian companies to develop and produce product, notwithstanding the patent and the patent protection after a particular period of time, and only after the generic provided a royalty to the patent holder.

Bill C-91 did away with that. What it did not do away with were the regulations that allowed a patent holder, by merely alleging that there had been a patent infringement, to go to the courts and get an injunction against the competitor for producing a product, even though we were at the end of a patent period.

What does that mean? Essentially patent holders who rightfully enjoy the protection of the patent period can merely make an allegation of infringement. They do not have to prove it nor do they have to go through the exercise of the rule of law, as my colleague from Prince George—Peace River suggested. They do not have go through courts for an injunction, where they might have to prove there was a patent infringement or they suffered as a result of that. They simply have to make an allegation—

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am listening very closely to the speaker. The point I want to make is whose side of this debate is he on? He should be on this side of the House after listening to the logic.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

The member knows, as well as I do, that is not a point of order.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, is it not wonderful to be in demand? Even opposition members recognize the value of reasoned debate. I compliment them on their perspectives. I thank them very much and I accept the compliment.

Instead of going through the rule of law it takes advantage of a very special privilege. We are not talking about duty. We are not talking about obligations. We are not talking about protections. We are not talking about due right under law, whether national or international. We are talking about taking advantage of a very special privilege that is hidden away in the regulations initially designed to ensure they would get their full 20 years.

Now that we have legislation which says they cannot have less than 20 years, there is this little regulation which says that if an allegation of infringement on a patent is made, it can be extended for another two years. So what? It is a big boy's game, no sexism intended. If they do not like it, tough luck. This is the marketplace, which is a good place because it says competition will allow the percolation not only of ideas but of a good quality product at an attractive price.

Everyone profits. That is what it does and what it says. I say no, not in this instance. We do not want that competition, not even after our legitimate 20 years are up. We can also engage in something called evergreening or modifying it a little to get a greater extension.

There are no saints in this discussion. Nor are there any sinners. There are only those who are advancing their interests. We are trying to advance the interests of all our companies and industries. We do not want to beggar any of them.

I want to bring a bit of balance to a discussion that has turned rather personal. The minister has recognized that there is this problem. As I indicated earlier, my colleague from the Canadian Alliance complimented the minister on his commitment to address the issue in the fall. He is an honourable man. Why would anyone disagree?

It appears members opposite are all anxious to get the legislation through.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I am sorry, not all members. I did not mean to include everyone. If we are to meet the deadline of August 12 they would want the bill passed. Members would want to take a look at some of the issues associated with what must be done.

We must redress that very special privilege. There should be none in a democratic environment, in a marketplace environment. There should be no special privilege industries. Let us remove those privileges.

I spoke a few moments ago about the injunctions that ended up in court. Of 55 cases involving patent infringement that recently appeared before the courts, I think 45 have been dismissed as being frivolous. Under normal circumstances this would suggest that some companies have been taking undue advantage of an intention that was noble at its genesis and continues to be so. However, when the legislation is changed, surely regulations must follow the same due and proper course.

My colleagues have probably looked at some of the issues I have raised in terms of what these companies have provided. It is a valuable industry because it provides thousands of jobs. Let us call the generic industry its competitor. It too provides a valuable function. It provides research jobs here in Canada.

There is no theft of product. There is a borrowing of ideas. It is done only after a particular period of time has elapsed. I want to reassure all members here without sounding as if I am on one side or another. I want to refer to what I said a moment ago and that is that most of the money the pharmaceutical industry has spent in this country on the research and development side, aside from the administrative and advertising side, goes toward clinical trials. There is no wet lab innovation there. It is just proving that a product either has efficacy or it does not and that it is safe or it is not.

At the very least we are at a stage where, in a competitive environment, companies, whether they are generic or patent, are now being forced to look at making use of the research and development institutions that we have funded. They are making use of that human and personal capital that emanates from those places. They are able to do it and they should be doing it right here in Canada.

When members in the House deliberate on this matter, I would like them to think in terms of final outcomes because that should be what guides a reasoned and reasonable debate. Those outcomes have to keep in mind our health care system and what its costs not only on the public purse but on the private purse, on private energies and on private resources. If government has a role then it must have a role in ensuring that the health of its people can be maintained at an affordable level.

We must ensure that those research and development institutions continue to thrive and that the manufacturing and marketing arms associated with their innovations continue to thrive.

Finally, we have to take a look at the consistency and coherence of a comprehensive plan that allows for industries to emerge, thrive and benefit the marketplace which demands its product. The marketplace includes our constituents, colleagues, friends, families and everybody who may require a pharmaceutical product down the road.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the speech made by the member for Eglinton—Lawrence. He spoke with a great deal of passion.

However, we have to get to the bottom of this. On the one hand the member stands up and acts as if he is addressing a new area for which he is prepared to push his government on and, on the other hand, he fails to acknowledge just how much his own government has been negligent in this regard.

We are talking about notice of compliance regulations. We are talking about the fact that the Brian Mulroney government failed to eliminate the injunction that gave brand name drug companies another two year protection beyond the 20 years. We are talking about a Liberal government that in 1998, rather than address the situation, actually made it worse.

I want the member to account for the decision by his own Minister of Industry in March 1998 to push through changes to the notice of compliance regulations, which actually evoked the ire of Canadians, health organizations and the generic drug industry. Those individuals and organizations were very concerned and went so far as to suggest that the Minister of Industry was doing nothing more than being a servant of foreign owned multinational drug companies. They called for his resignation because, as they noted, the government did exactly what Brian Mulroney did in 1993. It moved with haste to respond in the best interests of the brand name drug companies.

How in heaven's name can the member stand up today and show such indignation over something that his government should have and should have acted but refused to act on? We are now left with a situation where we are not dealing with a 20 year patent protection but at least a 22 year patent protection. Could he account for that kind of two faced position and that kind of flip-flopping?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I thought we had emerged from the position of character assassination, but I guess that is a standard that is a little too high for most people to meet. However, in my own humble fashion, I shall make the effort.

I took some pains to describe that there have been battles fought, some won, some lost, some mitigated and some not. I have made efforts as a member of parliament, as I know you have, Mr. Speaker, and as have other colleagues on this side of the House. I do not know what happens in other caucuses but in our own caucus we really encourage diversity of debate. The reason we do that is because we cannot prevent it. We all come from different parts of the country. We were all elected by different constituencies representing different interests and we are here to ensure that those points of view formulate what will emerge as a Canadian view of life. We cannot do it if we are all silenced, so we speak up. Unfortunately that does not jibe with the perception of opposition members of what happens, but that is what life is.

We fight our fights and we move on. We would like to win them all. We would like to have our own philosophy and be the singular imprint on the decisions of any government. I would like to do that. People did not elect me to be the absolute ruler of the country, much as I would like to be. I would probably end up getting hung but I would still like to have the opportunity to glory in my own errors.

However the marketplace has decided that my point of view is not the only one. I acknowledge that and I accept it. What I am doing today, even if it bothers some members of the opposition, is reminding them that we already have a commitment to get a change that nobody on that side has pointed out yet, save the member opposite who just asked me the question and her colleague who indicated that there is a special privilege that must be removed.

Where do I stand? I have already said that, yes, we must comply. We need to comply with world trade organizations because we believe in a world that is rules based and we want the same rules based here in this country to operate internally. If that is a principle worth fighting for, will the members of the opposition begrudge me the opportunity to stand in the House, to which I was elected, and say that this is what we need to do and to compliment my Minister of Industry for having had the courage to say that is what we are going to do?

[Greg Thompson, Progressive Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Mr. Speaker, the more I listen to the member the more confused I get regarding his position. Clearly, he does not, in his own mind, in an intellectual way support the legislation.

What kind of intellectual aerobatics is the member performing? If he does not believe in it, which he obviously does not, how can he come into the House and support it? It makes absolutely no sense on an intellectual basis.

I know he is entitled to his point of view and he has articulated that point of view, but what kind of aerobatics, what kind of trickery is he practising here? He says one thing and will vote in another fashion when Bill S-17 comes before the House for its final vote. How can he do it?

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I am sorry the member is confused. I indicated earlier on, to my great my surprise, that this was one of those few bills that seems to have the support of opposition members. Members of the Canadian Alliance and the Bloc Quebecois have said that they have absolutely no qualms at all about the bill.

Members of that party come into the House with no analysis and no deductions but all kinds of presumptions. I do not know what analysis they have because I have not heard them. I have only heard character assassinations and that they will support the bill.

A member of the House, no matter what side of the House he or she is on, may have a view that, without false modesty, is based on a modicum of research. Members may assail such a view and say that it is not based on thorough research, but it is based on research nonetheless. The view may not be consistent with what the members think the government wants, but it might be well reasoned and draw support for the government.

I have been sitting here all morning and members from the opposition have been slagging the government for virtually everything it has done. I am surprised we are still breathing. If one has a view and reasons it out in debate, which may be a novel word for members of the opposition, then one exercises the opportunity. Debate allows people to vent and voice their views and it lets members know their views are not ignored.

The opposition is incapable of performing its minimum duty. There are absolutely no negative consequences to expressing a reasoned and reasonable view in the House of Commons. We in the government do so without false modesty and with the backing of all who have supported us. That is an alien concept to the members opposite. In my own defence I can only refer to the introduction of the member. He is confused.

[Bev Desjarlais, NDP, Churchill, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my colleague on the opposite side talked about the minister being an honourable man. That honourable man spoke in a totally different way when he was in opposition. I want to make that point clear. I will not bring out the reams of comments he made in the House criticizing this type of legislation when he was in opposition.

My colleague talked about a rules based economy and our need for rules. I will give an example from Haiti where rice is the main staple food. Until free trade was instituted, Haitian farmers grew the bulk of the rice they needed to feed their country. Very little was imported.

In the mid-eighties, Haiti was forced to comply with IMF rules to lift tariffs on imported rice. As a result, Haiti was flooded with highly subsidized rice grown in the United States. Haitian farmers were unable to compete with U.S. subsidized prices and were put out of business. That is a wonderful example of a rules based economy from the IMF.

I will give another example in pharmaceutical—

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member. The hon. member for Eglinton—Lawrence has time for a very brief response.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is not much to say. I can only applaud the member for having a philosophical position and basis for her discussions. Philosophy is a good point of departure for any debate. However, as I said earlier, I thought we were going on the facts and issues relative to the bill. That is what I focused my comments on. I am willing to acknowledge that other people have different philosophies.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to have the opportunity to address an issue of fundamental importance to many Canadians. It is interesting for anyone following the debate to notice what is happening in this place.

If it were not for the NDP there would be no voices of opposition to one of the most regressive social policies in the history of the country. Any observer watching what is happening in this place will know that the tables have been turned. New Democrats in the House are calling for competition in the marketplace while Liberal members, supported by the Alliance and Conservative Parties, are suggesting that we need more welfare for corporations, more subsidization of the brand name drug industry and more socialism when it comes to big corporations and drug manufacturers.

Let us bring some reason to the debate. We are talking about ensuring that our legislation provides for reasonable prices in terms of drugs and necessary medications in the marketplace today. We are talking about formulating public policy that addresses fundamental values, priorities and philosophies around our health care system.

I listened to the comments made by members of the Alliance earlier today and their suggestion that one should never tamper with the marketplace. They say we are talking about investment by individuals and private interests which have the right to accrue benefits in perpetuity because of a one time investment or personal commitment over a period of time.

What we are talking about today is something I thought was a rock bottom value: a non-profit, universally accessible health care system. That is the framework we are operating from in trying to address drug policy. We are trying to address rapidly rising pharmaceutical prices and at the same time have a universally accessible public health care system. We are trying to balance the two.

We are trying to preserve, support and stabilize medicare but we cannot do that in the context of unfettered access to the marketplace. We cannot do that in the context of a complete cave in and a weak position by the Liberal government. We cannot do that by simply backing off and, as the Alliance members would say, letting the survival of the fittest philosophy take precedence in society today.

The context is a universal, non-profit, publicly administered, accessible health care system. In that context let us be clear. We must find a way to bring down drug prices. There is no question about it. We simply cannot go on with the way things are now. We cannot sustain medicare and ensure access by all Canadians to necessary medications at this rate. We must take action.

What the government is proposing with Bill S-17 totally flies in the face of its rhetoric and its statements suggesting that medicare is a program it believes in and wants to sustain.

I am somewhat agitated as I begin my speech, having listened to the hon. member for Eglinton—Lawrence. We have dealt with this time and time again. The government takes a strong position that is regressive and problematic for Canadian society, and then there is always a backbencher from the Liberals who stands and tries to pretend the Liberals are coming from a different position.

The hon. member for Eglinton—Lawrence will have to decide if he is supporting government policy or not. His government had a chance to deal with a very difficult situation around the two year injunction provisions and did not. The government made them worse.

I am glad the parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Industry is here. He will know that two or three years ago the then minister of industry made the situation with respect to patent protection for brand name drug companies even worse. The hon. member for Eglinton—Lawrence has the gall to stand in the House today and suggest the issue is not so bad. He suggests the extension of patent protection to bring us into compliance with the WTO is not so bad.

The real issue is that this place has never really addressed the 1993 decision of the Mulroney Conservative government not to eliminate the provision allowing drug companies to have another two years because of legal cases pertaining to the generic industry.

It is very difficult for us in the House to accept that kind of two faced positioning on the part of the Liberals. The Liberals must decide where they stand. Liberal members who disagree with the government must stand and say so and vote accordingly.

Let us be clear that in 1998 the Minister of Industry had an opportunity to deal with the situation the hon. member for Eglinton—Lawrence has commented on. He did not. He made the situation worse. Everything the government has done smacks of the Brian Mulroney approach to policy making when it comes to drug pricing and patent protection.

The debate is very important to us. We are doing whatever we can to oppose Bill S-17 and for good reason. Notwithstanding the substance of the issue, we have grave concerns about the fact that the bill was sponsored through the Senate. In our view that is a symbol of how embarrassed the government must be to bring in changes that fly in the face of everything it has said and done in the past.

It is hard for us to accept a bill coming from the Senate because the government has used the Senate when convenient and refused to allow bills from the Senate when not convenient. There is a two faced, double edged approach to the whole process around legislation that must be addressed.

Perhaps there is some rationale, some way to understand a bill of this nature coming from the Senate. A bill has been sponsored by an unelected, unaccountable body, the Senate, in direct response to the government caving in to a decision by another unelected, unaccountable body, the World Trade Organization. Perhaps there is a message in that in terms of what the government is all about.

Needless to say, it is repugnant to us that the government is bringing in the bill in the first place. It is made even more repugnant by the fact that it chose the Senate to do its dirty business.

We know very clearly what the bill intends to do. I will say it once more. It would amend the Patent Act to implement two recent decisions of the World Trade Organization. One relates to patents filed before October 1, 1989, and the other pertains to the stockpiling provisions under the Patent Act. The essence of these two aspects of Bill S-17 is more protection for brand name pharmaceutical corporations that want to hang on to their patents and prevent competition.

As we have said over and over again, and why I was so interested in the comments of the member for Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, is that the bill would round out and add to the policies put in place by the Mulroney Conservatives. We are dealing with a chain reaction, a continuation and enhancement by the Liberal government of the policies begun under Brian Mulroney and the Conservatives.

Perhaps the symbolism of the bill is more important in terms of understanding what kind of government we are dealing with. The bill symbolizes how much the Liberal Party has moved away from its tradition of providing balanced government and trying to ensure the needs of Canadians are protected in the face of globalization and corporate needs. That whole agenda has been transformed. Today we are at a point where the government decides it is appropriate to cave in the minute the WTO makes its rulings.

There was time. The government did not have to cave in immediately. There was ample opportunity to carve out a different position and stand up to the World Trade Organization. It chose not to. Why?

One could say it is a result of the government's general agenda to pursue globalization at all costs. It could be due to its desire to succumb not to a rules based trade agenda, as the member for Eglinton—Lawrence suggested, but to an unfair free trade approach that puts the needs of corporations like brand name drug companies ahead of individual rights and the needs of our health care system as a whole.

It is probably worth noting that in fact Bill S-17 was directly in response to the United States demanding interest patent protection. As my colleague from Churchill has said, it was in response to the government of a powerful country in the world today that believes a 20 year patent protection is but a minimum. That does not bode well for the future in terms of where the government might take this country given its tendency to cave in at every chance.

The bottom line is that these decisions and this law will have a very negative impact on when generic versions of brand name drugs become available on the Canadian market. The bottom line is that the bill means a delay in getting generic drugs on the market after a patent has expired. The bottom line is that patent termination of some 30 or more commercially significant drugs, previously protected under the old provisions prior to October 1, 1989 will be extended. The bottom line is that we will be faced with tremendous delays in terms of the potential entry into the marketplace of generic substitutes, as the terms of decree of October 1, 1989 patents expire between now and 2009.

The bottom line is that we will be dealing with much greater costs for our health care system as a whole, with the significant burden of that being placed on individuals across Canada. In fact some would estimate that this simple move on the part of the government to cave in to U.S. pressures and the WTO ruling will cost us over $100 million, just on its own, never mind the ongoing and ever rising costs in terms of patent protection or the other ways in which brand name drug companies can use the system to further their bottom lines, improve their profits and cost Canadians consumers even more. Just in terms of this bill alone there is a tremendous cost for a system that is under enormous pressure and cannot really handle or withstand any more increases than it is already facing today.

Earlier I asked a question. Is this an indication of a government completely abdicating responsibility in the face of a world trade agenda or is it a government that truly believes it has found a way to bring down drug prices and preserve our health care system?

I think the answer is obvious. We have a government that is committed to jumping to it whenever the World Trade Organization makes a ruling. We have a government that feels it must always cater to the big corporate interests of society today. It is interesting to note that the minute the WTO made its ruling on the U.S. complaint back in December 1999, the Canadian Chamber of Commerce told the government to get on with it. The government chose to get on with it.

There was time to develop a position to deal with the impact of such a decision, time to delay and certainly time to put in place provisions to counter the impact of the World Trade Organization ruling. Instead this government chose to jump to it. It did exactly what the chamber said and got on with it, bringing in Bill S-17 through the back door and forcing it through the House as quickly as possible so that it would be implemented well in advance of the deadline actually provided by the WTO, which is December.

It is interesting to note that before this past election the federal government and the Minister of Industry actually said that non-compliance was not out of the question, that they were looking at all options and that different possibilities were on the table. Yet the minute the election was over the government slipped in Bill S-17 through the back door and into this place. Unless we can stop it today it will become law and it will set us back enormously in terms of our health care agenda in the country today.

My colleague, the member for Winnipeg—Transcona, who is also our trade critic, says it all when he points out that Canada has hoisted itself on its own petard. It has brought on these problems itself by playing a game on the free trade front and going after certain countries when it is in disagreement with the actions they take to protect the interests of their citizens and then having to face the consequences of other nations going after Canada when we are trying to protect our own interests. The fact of the matter is that we are facing the results of a game being played out on the world front that is contrary to any notion of democracy and certainly contrary to the idea of a nation state controlling its own agenda and setting policies that benefit its own citizens.

We are facing the consequences of the Liberal approach to trade, which really is at the root of the problem. I know it is not the time and place to get at the whole trade question, but it would be far more productive for the government to address the root of the problem than to simply say that these are WTO rules and we have to cave in, there is nothing we can do about it, and then try to cover its tracks by suggesting that the Liberals were really wrong all along prior to 1993 by suggesting that there was anything wrong to begin with in regard to the Mulroney government's decision to change our Patent Act and to add many years of patent protection for brand name drug companies.

It would be far better if the government said it is in a difficult position, some of it brought on by itself, and it now has to address it so let us be honest about what is happening and try to correct the situation. Instead we had a cave in and then a confession of previous statements made around patent protection.

However this has unfolded, and I come back to this again and again, the bottom line is that it has an enormous impact on the ability of our health care system to be sustained in the future. Let us look at what we are talking about. We are talking about an increase in drug prices. The recent study from CIHI, the Canadian Institute for Health Information, shows an almost 100% increase in drug prices in the last few years of this decade.

We are talking about 10% of Canadian people who have no drug insurance and another 10% who are under insured. We are talking about a patchwork of entitlements, about people making difficult decisions between buying the drugs and medications they need to deal with their particular health conditions and putting food on the table and about seniors with chronic illnesses who have horrible decisions to make. We are talking about enormous pressures on provincial health care systems that are making our system more and more unsustainable. Really we are talking about a self-fulfilling prophecy when we put it all together.

Our objective today is to put in place reasonable public policies to sustain our health care system. We believe that the patent protection measures taken by the government previously and under Bill S-17 only aid and abet the agenda of brand name drug companies and do nothing to keep our prices in line, and they certainly contribute to the steady erosion of medicare. That has to be stopped. That is why we stand today and urge the government to reconsider.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Ajax—Uxbridge, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I was very pleased to hear the intervention of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre. I know it is an issue that she has spoken passionately about in the past.

I too have taken a great interest in the issue of drug patents, going back all the way to my candidacy in 1992 when I was first elected as a Liberal candidate. It was a big issue in my riding. The hon. member will know that I have no generics in my riding. However, I do have two brand name manufacturers.

The issue, however, has not garnered a lot of attention outside of the few members of parliament who have talked about it, including the member for Eglinton—Lawrence, who has also stood shoulder to shoulder with me on this issue over the past several years. It came as a bit of a surprise to see in the Hill Times a headline that suggests something very different from what I suggested in terms of the interview. I want to apologize to members for that. It is simply important for me to illustrate that the headline, which I had no control over, had nothing to do with the comments I made.

More important, though, is the question I have for the hon. member. The motion I brought into committee dealt with the question of the automatic injunction, which gives the effect of extending drug patents well beyond the 20 year patent regime. The hon. member also knows that when new drug prices are brought forward Canada is related to the other seven nations, the top nations that have the privilege of having a warehouse or head office in their own countries. We also know that when we talk about R and D, the $900 million, much of it is for advertising.

I would like to ask the hon. member if she would comment on some of the methodologies of the PMPRB, which tend to give a very distorted view of what Canadians are actually paying when it comes to high drug costs, and on the overall implications for Canada's number one concern, the health care system.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question. I am glad for the member's support of our position to the extent that he has stated. It was also curious to hear that he, like the member for Eglinton—Lawrence, has suggested that there is an avenue of action not yet taken. That is the elimination of the injunction in the notice of compliance regulations, which actually tack on more years to the present 20 year protection.

I come back to the fact that the government had an opportunity to address that situation, chose not to and in fact in 1998 made it worse. How does any Liberal member stand in the House and raise this issue knowing full well that his own government and the Minister of Industry have taken action that flies directly in the face of that very reasonable suggestion?

Of course I support the elimination of the provision that gives brand name drug companies another two years to fight for their rights, adding another couple of years onto an already lengthy and overly generous patent protection provision. I also believe that there are many other courses of action we can pursue.

The member talked about some of the provisions and a review of the policies of the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board. We absolutely support the kinds of suggestions he is making. I wish we could have received support for the suggestions we have made over the last number of years.

I think the member is fully aware of an Industry Canada draft report that came out prior to 1997 and made very strong recommendations, one being that the government should ask the World Trade Organization to re-evaluate 20 year patents on drugs and should take all steps to foster international co-operation on the problems of drug costs and utilization.

I think that makes the point very well that the government could have done something other than cave in to the WTO. There is another viewpoint and there were other avenues available to the minister. It obviously chose not to take them.

The fact of the matter is that the draft report by Industry Canada suddenly was revised, amended and changed. Different recommendations came forward in the post-1997 election period because some considerable political work was done behind the scenes to make sure that the amendments were compatible with the dictates of the minister at the time and the overall agenda of the government, which was not to operate in the best interests of fair prices and policies that protect consumers but to cater to brand name drug companies, to deny opportunities for generic companies to compete in the marketplace and to condone ever increasing prices that harm our health care system and deny necessary drugs to consumers.

My question for the Liberal member who just spoke, and to others, is this: when will they convince their own government to actually take action on the recommendations that were made in the past in the consultations leading up to 1997? When will the member and others join with us in trying to force policy changes that will bring into play a more competitive marketplace and fairer prices for all?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—St. Clair, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I commend both the member for Winnipeg North Centre and the member for Churchill for their comments today. They spoke with passion, sincerity and some degree of eloquence on this point. I will make a comment and then ask a question.

It is my understanding that the major argument from the major pharmaceutical companies is that they need more money in order to do their research and development. Is the member for Winnipeg North Centre aware that as much as 50 cents of every dollar that the pharmaceutical companies spend is spent, not on research and development, not on basic administration of their companies but on promotion, marketing and advertising?

As a supplementary question, what effect would this have on any potential for a pharmacare program in the country?

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North Centre, MB]

Mr. Speaker, the question about the profitability of brand name drug companies is a very important one because members of the four parties who support Bill S-17 feel that the excessive profits of these drug companies should be allowed to become even more exorbitant. Profits for brand name drug companies are already triple the industrial average and this industry is probably the second, if not the first, fastest growing industry in Canada.

We are not talking about companies that are making modest profits and getting a return on their investment. We are not talking about a corporate sector that is necessarily investing in new innovative changes and approaches to our health care system.

We have heard time and again from many witnesses and from people in the House over the course of the debate that drug companies often invest in me too drugs. They often invest in developing and finding new terminologies for disorders so they can take a drug on which the patent is about and give it a new name in response to a new disorder that they have defined themselves and get another patent extension.

Brand name companies use all kinds of games and manipulative practices to extend patent protection. Whatever the rules or laws of the land are, they will find a way around them. I do not believe we are getting a fair return on our investment. It ends up that taxpayer money and public revenues are subsidizing the extremely wealthy, profitable corporate entities that are monopolizing the field.

As I said earlier, we are subsidizing and giving welfare to these monolithic entities that are denying competition from the generic industry. That does not bode well for pharmacare and medicare. It does not bode well for Canadians who want access to drugs when they need them or to have hope of new research and the development of new products that will deal with changing circumstances and different issues.