Debates of June 5th, 2001

Division No. 124

[The Speaker]

All those in favour of the motion will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Speaker]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Speaker]

In my opinion the yeas have it.

And more than five members having risen:

(The House divided on the motion, which was agreed to on the following division: )

Division No. 125

[The Speaker]

I declare the motion carried. Accordingly, the bill is referred to committee of the whole.

(Bill read the second time and referred to committee of the whole)

[The Speaker]

It being 6.08 p.m. the House will now proceed to the consideration of private members' business as listed on today's order paper.

National Agriculture Industry Relief Coordination Act

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

moved that Bill C-263, an act to establish a national committee to develop policies and procedures to ensure coordination in the delivery of programs by governments in the case of agricultural losses or disasters created by weather, pests, shortages of goods or services or market conditions, and the coordination of the delivery of information, assistance, relief and compensation, and to study the compliance of such programs with World Trade Organization requirements, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak to my private member's business with respect to Bill C-263.

First, I would like to acknowledge the fact that the bill is not a votable bill. It will not receive second reading. It will not go any further than this one hour of debate this evening, which is very unfortunate.

I would also like it recognized that there is an opportunity to change the rules of this parliament and this House by deeming that all private members' business which comes forward will be deemed votable and that each member, whether they be on the government side or on the opposition side, be given the opportunity to put forward their own opinions as to what should be done with respect to legislation for this country.

I will begin the debate today with an excerpt from a letter that was sent to the minister of agriculture on February 15, 1999, from the national safety nets advisory committee during the negotiations surrounding the infamous AIDA program. The excerpt states:

The majority of the National Safety Nets Advisory Committee would like to express its disagreement with Agriculture Canada and provincial governments regarding the changes they intend to make to the Farm Income Disaster Program. The committee does not support the program as it is currently designed—We are seriously concerned about the precedents which these decisions set on for the next round of the Safety Net negotiations. The program as designed now no longer provides sufficient support to farmers facing a crisis.

If only the minister of agriculture actually had listened and acted on the words of the committee perhaps he would not have faced the severe criticism he had with respect to the AIDA program.

The minister dropped the ball on the design and delivery of the AIDA program so badly that the producers and the producer groups have completely lost trust and faith in the minister and this government's commitment to agriculture.

Having said that, an advisory committee can work in the future if it includes representation from all three levels, federal, provincial and stakeholders, and is given more power in the decision making process. Bill C-263 would do exactly that.

Whether it is the ice storm of January 1998, the floods in Manitoba in 1997 and in 1999 in my area the Saguenay, the droughts in Nova Scotia, or the potential droughts in Alberta, any of those should have assistance attached to them in some form of a disaster program.

When natural disasters occur through weather, pests, or agricultural losses through falling commodity prices, the federal government must take a more proactive rather than reactive approach and start developing policies in advance which would benefit our producers in good times and bad, not the ad hoc programs that we have seen come from this government.

The purpose of my private member's bill is to help the government in doing just that. The bill would create a committee that would assist the minister of agriculture in developing policies and procedures to ensure the co-ordination between different government authorities with respect to the delivery of information assistance, relief and compensation. The committee would monitor situations on an ongoing basis and discuss what income protection measures are available to farmers in the event of disaster or unusual conditions caused by weather or pests, taking into account such areas as crop insurance, flood and drought protection programs and NISA.

The committee's mandate is expected to monitor the effects of low commodity prices on the agricultural industry and the primary producers' farm income as well. The committee would also investigate and advise the minister on the compliance of any income assistance programs with the WTO requirements.

The committee, with some teeth, would consist of 21 members. Three members would be nominated by the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food. One member would be nominated by the agriculture minister in each province. Five members would represent farmers and would be nominated by organizations representing farmers. Three members would represent the industry related to agriculture products and would be nominated by organizations representing those industries.

As members are aware, a national safety net advisory review committee exists right now. My bill is an extension of that committee. It would expand the role, power and membership of the committee and give the committee more teeth and more power. It would create a more permanent committee rather than simply ad hoc committees that are created at the whim of the minister.

Bill C-263 also speaks to more transparency and disclosure of information on safety net agreements. The bill specifically calls for all reports to be laid before parliament, not simply hid in the minister's office.

It is also important that we emphasize the word consistency when we talk about co-ordinating assistance programs. The committee would work toward alleviating any problems with achieving consistency in the delivery and co-ordination of assistance programs.

The biggest issue we have right now with any type of disaster program is that there is no consistency. When we talk about the ice storm in Quebec, a whole different set of rules and criteria are put forward by the ministry when it deals with those kinds of problems and disasters. When it deals with the Red River flood, programs that nobody knew about came out of the woodwork because it was an election year. Programs simply materialized. When I had the disaster in my area there were no programs but it was not an election year.

What disturbed my constituents the most was not the fact that the government forgot about them but that there was no consistency. If it had been an election year we would have had a different program as opposed to a program for a not very high profile disaster.

Southern Alberta has had absolutely no rain and is suffering from drought but that is not considered to be a high profile disaster. I suspect the programs that will come forward from the federal government in this instance will not have the same consistency as what was delivered to the Red River Valley or, for that matter, when the ice storms hit Quebec.

There must be consistency in determining the level of assistance. It should not simply be based on the amount of publicity a disaster gets. With the environmental and climatic changes that the country and the world are undergoing, it is vital now more than ever to monitor these issues on an ongoing basis and develop consistent policies that would help farmers deal with these changes both financially and socially.

We should be able to take a program off the shelf and develop it in committee. When it is developed and it describes and defines a disaster, we can make sure it also defines the programs that are associated with that disaster. We would make sure the definition matches and the program is in place. There would be no inconsistency, no ad hoc programs and no changes from disaster to disaster or from region to region.

It is important that there is a tripartite working group, as Bill C-263 suggests, to have input and share ideas on income protection for the farming community. What is needed now is federal leadership on this issue to ensure that this equity and fairness is achieved when we shape our future safety net framework.

We had a meeting today in committee that was attended by the agriculture ministers from Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. They reached consensus on 90% of what they had to say. They did not agree on some issues concerning the Canadian Wheat Board and on transportation but we will not go into that. However, what every one of them did agree on was that we need a long term, well thought out safety net program. I heard the same thing four years ago. The Manitoba agriculture minister said that we need a long term, well thought out program.

When I asked the question of those ministers and suggested that maybe it should be based on a GRIP model, they agreed. That is the model, by the way, that the government destroyed in 1995. The government took it away from farmers. Were it in place now, it would certainly be a different situation in the agriculture community.

They also said to a person that they would like to show the model of the ASRA program in Quebec, that they would like to start it as the model and build from that. When I suggested that there is quite a substantial amount of provincial expense associated with that program, they said to start with the model and then try to get the political will from the government to contribute to that model so that we could go forward with a safety net program that would actually work.

The bill would allow that to happen—

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I want to apologize to the hon. member. There is some ambiguity apparently with the Table as to defining whether the time of the vote on the motion tomorrow is 5.15 p.m. or 6.15 p.m. I just want to inform the House that the intention was 5.15 p.m. so as to preserve private members' hour.

I have had consultations with all other House leaders to ensure that this is in fact what the intention was and I thought I would take this opportunity to inform the Chair.

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. House leader for putting that information forward. It is very important that we can vote on that particular motion an hour earlier.

Dealing with my bill now instead of the government's bill on pay raises, I would suggest that the agriculture ministers who were appearing before the committee all agreed that a safety net program should be put together. Dealing with that issue with respect to the committee I am proposing, with the committee being made up not only of farmers, producers, industry people and government people but also of people from the provinces, we would then be able to have a group get together to put in place the right process, the right model, and then take that forward, and not just to the minister because unfortunately the minister loses those recommendations on a fairly regular basis. I do not think anybody, including the minister of agriculture, could have possibly put forward a worse program than the AIDA program and could have possibly put forward a worse implementation than the AIDA implementation.

In my constituency office about 50% of my time and my staff's time is devoted to trying to find out the status of AIDA claims. That was supposed to be finished by now. We had a safety net program called AIDA that was supposed to put dollars in the pocket immediately. As a matter of fact I heard the minister say at one time that the AIDA program was bankable.

I would have great difficulty in suggesting that any producer could go to any bank in the country and generate a loan based on the criteria of AIDA. That producer would be laughed out of any financial institution, because there was no understanding at all of what kind of financial compensation producers would get when they applied to AIDA. Producers spent a lot of money at their accountants for the information, applied to AIDA and had a number that was generated from the criteria.

Applications to AIDA went through a bunch of processes. In some cases producers were told what the number would be and when they ended up with the cheque it was totally different and always for less than what the original application was for. In some cases it was up to 50% less. In some cases after they made their application based on information developed by their accountants, the government came back and said they would get nothing out of the AIDA program. Is that bankable?

The point I am trying to make is that if this committee were in existence it could put forward its model and the implementation of its model as well. Everybody would live happily ever after except of course for the government because it might finally have to do something right with respect to agriculture. That would be a terrible divergence from where it is now. If it actually did something right for producers and agriculture, producers would not know what hit them.

Unfortunately the legislation is non-votable. It is an issue that is very dear and close to my heart and to the hearts of the people I represent in my rural area. Unfortunately a good safety net program will not come forward. The new CFIP has been extended for two years and it is very underfunded. I do not believe the government has the political will to put forward the necessary programs to keep agriculture prosperous in the future.

I would appreciate hearing from the parliamentary secretary who probably does not understand the issue very well. However I am sure he has some notes that have been made for him, so I will sit back and listen.

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Mr. Speaker, I have not been insulted. If my colleague was not saying that in jest, I would be insulted.

We have just heard from one of our valuable members of the all party Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-Food. I heard one of my colleagues in the Canadian Alliance say in the last two weeks that we were the committee on the Hill that gets along better, for all the right reasons, than any other committee. I believe we have good people sitting around the table. We do not always agree. I am certain that we will hear the ideas of the hon. member for Brandon—Souris in the near future and when we visit his community in the fall.

This debate is very important. The importance of being prepared for an agricultural disaster cannot be overemphasized. I thank the hon. member for raising the profile of the issue. However the government cannot support the bill for very obvious reasons.

My colleague knows that first and foremost Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada is already responsible for developing policies and procedures in case of agricultural losses or disasters. There is no denying the importance of our agriculture and agri-food sector. It is an integrated and complex $130 billion a year chain. It is the second largest manufacturing sector and the employer of one out of every seven jobs in Canada.

The current system allows the government to develop positions regarding agricultural policy that are consistent with the national interest. It includes accounting for what is the best for the country as a whole, for both rural and urban Canadians. The proposed bill would not allow us to do that.

Legislating the committee's mandate and membership structure would reduce the government's flexibility to consult more broadly on different and evolving issues. To develop programs and policies for the sector, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada consults with a wide range of stakeholders. These consultations are a valuable means of listening to Canadians and sharing ideas.

AAFC has a long history of consulting with national farm organizations, producers, processors, provinces and territories. The department is also reaching out to consumers, citizens, non-government organizations and civil society organizations that look to AAFC to provide safe food, a clean environment and products that improve the quality of life. That is what we provide and Canadians do a great job of it.

The government values opportunities to engage in informed discussion with people representing a broad range of opinions. The insights gained from these consultations are crucial to the department as it continues to serve the priority needs of Canadians. By taking the views of a wide range of Canadians into account, the government is better positioned to ensure the agriculture and agri-food sector is competitive and innovative in the future.

I will take a few moments to review the safety net programs we already have in place. Last July, federal, provincial and territorial agriculture ministers signed a three year framework agreement on farm income safety nets worth $5.5 billion. The federal government is investing up to $3.3 billion over the next three years and the provinces are contributing up to $2.2 billion.

In addition to bringing more money to the table, the new agreement marked the first time ever that all the provinces and the federal government, including Manitoba, signed on to a common approach to delivering federal-provincial farm safety net programs, an approach which includes an ongoing income disaster program the Canadian farmers had requested.

The Canadian farm income program, or CFIP, is a three year national disaster program designed to provide funding for agricultural producers here in Canada to address serious income reductions that are beyond their control. The framework also provides the basis for federal and provincial core safety net programs, which include fall cash advances, NISA, crop insurance and province specific programs.

Another reason why the government cannot support the bill is that agriculture disasters and farm income are not issues in isolation from all the others facing farmers. That is why the government is going even further in domestic policy development, with the goal of greater security for this sector.

That is why we are working on a strategy that includes income stabilization, adjustment and transition, food safety and environmental protection. This strategy will provide producers with the appropriate tools to manage their individual situations with a market oriented, globally competitive industry. To achieve that goal, we are broadening our understanding of risk to include the entire food chain, from field to fork, and to include not only price and yield risks but also environmental and food safety concerns.

We are helping the agriculture and agrifood sectors manage all of the risks that they face and respond to the growing expectations of citizens and consumers. We are enhancing our already great reputation for being known throughout the world as a supplier of high quality and safe products. We want customers to choose Canada because it sets the standard for food safety and for environmental responsibility in the production of our food. This strategy, not the bill put forward by the member opposite, will make Canada the world leader in using environmentally sustainable practices and in producing safe, high quality food.

This approach builds on the advancements in science, particularly life science, the growing knowledge of living things and to facilitate sector growth. Canadians are world leaders in agricultural research and development, with recognized expertise in areas such as sustainable farming practices, biotechnology and life science.

Life sciences, for example, are creating a whole new range of products and services based on renewable resources such as plants. We are actively pursuing new and expanded uses for traditional agricultural commodities, including, for example, biodiesel additives that are made from canola, nutriceuticals from tomatoes and from flax, and the production of high value pharmaceutical proteins in plants.

We have many great possibilities staring at us in the immediate future. We are also developing completely new crops in which to deliver viable chemicals to all kinds of applications. Our farmers will have the tools that they need to produce products that are the number one choice of Canadian citizens and consumers around the globe.

Consumers will choose Canada because it sets the standard for food safety, for environmental responsibility and for innovation and because a Canadian product from the Canadian market is one that people can trust and believe in. A Canadian product can always be believed in and we are very proud of it.

In turn, our producers in rural communities will reap the benefits of the new markets, economic growth and investment that are rightfully theirs. We will provide them with a legacy and a future that is a source of national pride, an unbeatable national advantage that will support generations to come.

We are producing products in a sustainable and environmentally responsible manner so that our natural resources are productive for generations to come.

We are continuing our efforts to maintain and enhance our reputation for safe and high quality food production. We are looking to science and research to develop new products and new ways to better serve humankind.

We are moving forward. The proposed bill is taking a step backward, but I am sure my colleague will be back at another time to do a better job, with more research, and we will look at this issue again.

I look forward to debate in committee tomorrow when in fact our guest speaker will be the Secretary of State for Rural Development. It is worth noting that this is the first time in the history of the House of Commons there has been a minister responsible for rural development in Canada. I am glad to say that the minister will be in front of our committee tomorrow.

[Garry Breitkreuz, Canadian Alliance, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting to listen to the debate that is going on today. The last comment made by my colleague is also very interesting because the budget for that department is even less than that for the gun registry. That is an indication that the gun registry is spending much more money than was first planned.

It is my pleasure to speak to the bill today, which calls for the creation of a national committee to oversee programs in the case of agricultural losses, disasters or market conditions. It is quite evident, however, that the current government is either not listening to farmers or is indifferent to their plight. With net farm income in both Saskatchewan and Manitoba hitting record lows and input costs rising day by day, it is appalling to see how the government has brushed aside the Canadian farmer.

In committee today we listened to three agriculture ministers from the prairie provinces. Input costs have risen dramatically. The farm crisis in those provinces is deepening. Farm income has gone up in other provinces, but the grain producing provinces are still in crisis. A 15% rise in interest costs alone last year indicates that farmers are borrowing more money just to try to stay afloat. There has been a 35% increase in fuel costs. Farmers find this devastating.

The bottom line in all of this is that in my home province of Saskatchewan the average farm income is less than $7,000. We were talking about salaries in the House today, but let us take a look at what many thousands of people who produce food for the country have to exist on. That is something we need to address and need to address urgently.

It was clearly demonstrated on March 20 when we in the Canadian Alliance put forward a motion calling upon the government to give an additional $400 million in emergency assistance to Canadian farmers. The motion was voted down by the government side, by the way. If the government had been listening to farmers and farm groups, it would have known that the $500 million it put on the table was not enough.

Instead the government has said that programs like AIDA would help farmers get through their financial crunch, but with red tape entangling every farmer who applies it has become more of a hindrance than a help. There are horror stories of farmers who applied and were assured that they would get money, so they borrowed money from their banks because they were told it was bankable. Then months later they were asked to repay the amount. Farmers do not have money to do that.

The horror stories are terrible. I wish government members would go to my constituency, answer the phone sometime and listen to what farmers have to contend with as they apply for some of this government assistance.

It is extremely important for the government to receive information on how effective current safety net programs are and to take advice on how to improve the delivery of necessary financing for our farm families. We have a committee in place that is called the national safety net advisory committee. The problem is not a lack in the committee or lack of advice. The problem is the minister of agriculture and the governing Liberals in general who ignore the advice they have received.

In committee this morning we heard again that all kinds of studies have been done on the farm situation. We heard about the Estey report and the Kroeger report. The results are virtually ignored. There is no point in having all these studies and there is no point in setting up committees if the government does not follow up and do something about this issue.

Let me give more examples. Farm groups have shown consistently that the current AIDA program has failed to address the needs of grain and oilseeds producers. The government has ignored this fact. I have received letters and phone calls from disgruntled farmers who are trying to get through the red tape that is called AIDA. Some farmers are still waiting for their 1999 claim. That is two years after the fact. Those who have qualified are at times waiting for their cheques after receiving notification that they will be receiving the money.

Farm groups thought if they could give advice on how to improve AIDA, the government might listen, but the government has not. Agricultural producers said again and again that a minimum of $900 million was needed just to cover the losses they incurred in 2000, but our Prime Minister allowed only $500 million to be given out. Farm rallies and producer delegations have come to Ottawa and have all said time and time again that the $500 million was not close to enough.

The problem is quite evident. The government refuses to listen even to a committee of its own creation. Our party has done what the government has refused to do.

I appreciate what my colleague on the government side said about the agriculture committee. Yes, we try to work together with government, we try to point out what is necessary for it to do, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

Last year the Canadian Alliance went out to farmers and asked them what they would like to see the government implement. Farmers told us that assistance should be given out on time and should be targeted to those who need help the most and that any type of farm assistance program must be improved to provide long term stability to farmers instead of constantly created ad hoc programs.

Those farmers came before the committee. They gave reasonable solutions to the crisis we are facing in agriculture, but nothing happened. That is what Canadian producers have told us. That is what they have been telling the national safety net advisory committee, but the minister of agriculture and his colleagues on the government side refused to listen. Would the creation of a new committee cause the government to listen when already it does not listen to a committee of the same nature? That is highly doubtful.

I support the motion. I would do anything to try to help out our agriculture producers, but I do not know that another committee is going to really do it.

It seems that the government side must be hard of hearing. It seems to turn a blind eye to an industry that employs 1.7 million Canadians, has exports that total $27.6 billion and contributes $13.6 billion to our gross domestic product. It is just unfathomable that the government would ignore this kind of industry. It seems that the voice of the farmer no longer matters to the government. I would ask the government to start listening and to spend more time with farmers.

In the coming months we may have a drought like we have not seen for over 130 years. If the no rain situation continues in Alberta and western Saskatchewan, we will have a crisis that will be even more severe and will have more dimensions to it.

What will the government do when the cattle are being shipped in order to find better pasture land? What will the government do when the water levels drop to dangerously low levels? Will the government begin to listen when it is too late? Will it perk up its ears and start to lend an ear to agriculture producers?

All I ask is that the government listen, not just to me but to producers. I ask the government to listen to their problems. I ask the government to listen to their advice and use it to help them in troubled times.

This morning we had three ministers of different political stripes before the committee, three ministers who agree that something has to be done. When we have a problem of this dimension on the prairies, we must take it seriously. When the cutbacks were made in 1993 the prairie provinces were expected to take a much greater hit. That is one thing that all the ministers before the committee this morning agreed on. They agreed that they were treated differently, that they had taken a much greater hit than the rest of the agricultural sector. Would we then conclude that the government, by cutting back in these areas and not allowing enough time for the change has actually, created the crisis in western Canada?

I will give an example. The Crow rate was a transportation subsidy that western Canadian farmers had for almost a century. It was suddenly removed. We said at that time that 90% of that money should be taken and rolled into a program that would compensate them for the adverse effects that they received from other parts. That did not happen. If that would have happened at that point, we would have had enough money accumulated now to deal with this crisis because, as was explained in committee today, this crisis has come about because of the farm support programs in other countries.

I could go on and on, however if we need another committee and if that committee is going to help, I will support it. However, the bottom line is we have to make sure that whatever happens, farmers are listened to and their needs are addressed.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to discuss a concern that should affect and seriously grab the attention of all Canadians, and that is our agricultural crisis.

There probably was not a sadder day for our primary producers than the day the Prime Minister country said, and I believe I am quoting verbatim, “I don't understand the problem in agriculture, it is not showing up in the polls”. Imagine a farmer struggling in the fields of Saskatchewan, or the Annapolis Valley, or Manitoba or wherever hearing the Prime Minister issue a statement of that nature? It was because of that type of response by the Prime Minister that I entered politics.

In November 1996, on national television, a woman from Quebec asked this same Prime Minister a question. By the way, that was his last televised town hall meeting. Imagine how nervousness she was, bearing in mind that he had been a member of parliament for 33 years and was the Prime Minister of the country. She asked him what he or his government could do to assist her to search for gainful employment? He could have and should have said that she had brought up a specific case and if she cared to meet his officials after the show, they would be happy to talk to her. However, he did not.

What he said changed my life and got me into politics. He said “Well Madam, in life some people are lucky, some are not. You may have to move”. I was so upset by our Prime Minister when he said that that I decided to enter the political world, and here I am today. Years later, he said that agriculture was not showing up in the polls.

My colleague, the member for Palliser who through his efforts has not only kept the caucus abreast of the agricultural issues, but has raised these issues in the standing committee and in the House of Commons. He deserves a wonderful warm round of applause for his continued effort to bring the issues of agriculture to the forefront of political debate.

My colleague from Brandon—Souris is asking that a committee be struck to look into the issues that severely affect our farmers and their families of today, be it weather, pests, shortages of goods or services, market conditions, delivery concerns, et cetera. He is asking the government and opposition members to show a little forward thinking in terms of the needs of our agricultural producers.

Not long ago a group farmers and their families spoke to our caucus about their concerns and the agricultural crisis they were facing at home in the prairies. We should bear in mind that 22,000 families left the farm in 1998-99. If that is not a crisis, what is it?

I asked a young man from Saskatchewan who was about 12 or 13 years old if he would go into the agriculture industry when he became older. He said that his father and his grandfather did but he would not. Then I asked him if his classmates in school would go into the agriculture industry and become farmers, and he said no.

The question that begs to be asked is: Who will be the agricultural producers of tomorrow? Will it be the family farm or will it be the multinational corporate farm? Is the family farm dead and finished? If it is, the government should have the courage to say so, but that is not its initiative.

I come from an area of the world where a lot of fishing takes place. The loss of independent fishermen in the nineties and what happened to their families is exactly what is happening to farmers of today. It is inexcusable that the government just sits back and twiddles its thumbs and allows this crisis to happen. It is almost like the government does it deliberately. It is almost like it wants multinational corporations to take over.

Mark my words, Mr. Speaker. We may eventually lose our agricultural sovereignty in Canada, which means that we will have to rely on other nations or other corporations governed by other nations to feed us. That will be a sad day. We should be world leaders and we are falling further behind. We are telling our farmers that we do not care and that parliament is too busy to deal with their issues. All my colleague from Brandon—Souris asked was that a committee be struck to look at the issues.

It is incredible that government members will not accept that argument but it is understandable. A good idea from the opposition is rarely accepted by the Liberal Party. It is unfortunate the Liberals cannot get their heads out of the clouds for one moment and accept good and reasonable debate. There was a time when the Liberal Party of Canada would have done so, but it does not do it now. If an idea does not come from that bench, it certainly does not go anywhere. That is a disgrace.

On behalf of farmers and on behalf of the New Democratic Party from coast to coast to coast, we thank the member for Brandon—Souris for his initiative. We would have liked to see it votable, but unfortunately it is quite obvious that the Liberal government would not see that happen.

[Larry McCormick, Liberal, Hastings—Frontenac—Lennox And Addington, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I heard my hon. colleagues on the other side say that we have no committee and that we are stopping a committee. We have a committee—

[Rick Borotsik, Progressive Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

That is not a point of order.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I am not here to quote the member for Brandon—Souris. While the Chair is not here to agree or disagree, the member certainly has a point that this matter is not a point of order. I will allow the member for Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore time to conclude his remarks.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

My remarks will be very clear. I personally thank all farmers and their families across the country who toil in the fields and in the factories in order to provide us with the best food in the world. On behalf of the federal New Democratic Party from coast to coast to coast, I wish them Godspeed in their future deliberations.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, once again I rise unexpectedly in the House because the topic seizes my attention as I hope it seizes the attention of all Liberals over there who are closing their eyes to a problem in the country. I look over there and pretty well all of them are disinterested in what we are doing today. That is very unfortunate because it is a matter of great importance.

I want to make a few comments about the importance of agriculture. It goes far beyond the fact that I grew up on a farm. It goes far beyond the fact that I still have relatives in Saskatchewan and Alberta. I do not have any farming relatives in Alberta, but I have farming relatives in Saskatchewan. I have many farmers in my riding for whom I feel an obligation to speak up on an occasion like this one when a motion was presented by a member of the Progressive Conservative Party which talked about the crisis in the agricultural industry.

The Government of Canada, in conjunction with the provincial governments, has a large duty in the agricultural community which has gone unfulfilled. It is more than just a crisis of lack of rain, pests or the usual things farmers have contended with all their lives. It is a crisis in marketing their commodities.

I want all Liberal members to hear that there are problems which have been produced by the government. It is curious to me that members of the Liberal Party are basically saying there are so few voters on the prairies it does not matter whether or not they look after them because they will not lose many votes and will still keep power. It seems that the Liberal government is all words, all committee and no action.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member for Elk Island, but it seems to me that a few voices of members opposite in particular seem to come to my attention. I know they would love to speak to this motion once more but they already have done so.

I ask and beg their indulgence to allow other members the same privilege. I would love to hear the hon. member for Elk Island.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I appreciate your comments. Certainly the House should be a place of dialogue and not just verbal jousting.

Farmers in my riding are having trouble these days. It includes drought, and with drought comes another problem. One farmer in my area this week lost his home. It was so dry around his place that unfortunately a fire started, the grass burned up to his house and took his house down. That is a calamity in that family. Everything was lost due climate over which farmers have no control.

What is maddening is when farmers have problems over which they have no control but which the government could change. That is the source of the agricultural crisis. For example, I know a farmer who sells seed grain. Seed grain is not covered by the wheat board. The wheat board will not market it. All it markets is the usual grain.

The farmer is wanting to market his seed grain. The wheat board demands that it be sold through him. It will not take it. That does not make any sense. What a frustration to a farmer who wants to make enough money to look after himself and his family, to pay his bills, his increasing energy bills, and all other bills.

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Blame the Alberta government.

[Ken Epp, Canadian Alliance, Elk Island, AB]

I would blame both governments. I blame members of the federal government because when there was a vote on rules for the wheat board they all stood even though none of them, or I should say very few of them, represented ridings in the prairies. They had the gall to set up a wheat board that applies only to the prairie provinces and does not apply—

[John Cannis, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I beg your indulgence. I stayed here because I had an interest to hear, but I am not really hearing what this debate is all about. If we could get back to the subject matter I would like to hear it.

[The Deputy Speaker]

If the hon. parliamentary secretary would give the hon. member for Elk Island a little more time, I am sure he would find the pertinence and relevance he is seeking right before his eyes.