Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to begin third reading of Bill S-17, an act to amend the Patent Act. Bill S-17 is the end result of two separate World Trade Organization challenges, one by the European Union and one by the United States, against different aspects of Canada's drug patent regime.

As a result of these challenges the WTO ruled that certain aspects of our drug patent regime, namely stockpiling and our old act patent term, were inconsistent with our international obligations under the WTO agreement on trade related aspects of intellectual property rights, also known as TRIPS.

On a more positive note, Canada won an important aspect of the challenges when the WTO validated our early working exception that accelerates the market entry of generic drugs by a period of three to six and a half years.

Overall these rulings neither undermine nor threaten the underlying balance of Canada's patent regime. They do, however, mean the Patent Act needs to be amended to comply with our obligations under TRIPS.

The bill before us deals exclusively with issues of patent term and stockpiling. Its primary objective is to bring Canada's Patent Act into compliance with the WTO ruling. It is very important therefore that we proceed expeditiously with the amendments before us because the WTO has imposed an August 12 deadline for compliance with the patent term ruling.

The amendments in the bill have deliberately been kept as simple and straightforward as possible to help meet the deadline. If we do not respect the deadline we could face retaliatory trade sanctions. To avoid such a result requires that the bill be passed by parliament and given royal assent before the summer recess.

Some would say that Bill S-17 would alter the balance of Canada's drug patent regime. That is not the case. We have demonstrated that the amendments would not increase the price of drugs. They would affect only a small percentage of drugs on the market, less than 1%, and would not affect the speed at which generic drugs enter the market.

This demonstrates that the amendments would not undermine the balance of Canada's drug patent regime, a balance that rewards innovation and guarantees access to affordable drugs for all Canadians.

Because some have expressed concerns about how a change in the terms of patent protection would affect drug costs, I will go into the issue in more detail. We heard in committee that the number of commercially significant drugs that would benefit from patent term extension is approximately 30. That number is relatively insignificant when compared to the 5,200 patent and non-patent prescription drugs available to Canadians. The average term extension for patents on the 30 drugs I mentioned is less than six months.

The proposed amendments would not increase the overall price of drugs. Rather, they could delay by a few months the potential savings offered by generic alternatives. Even under the most generous of assumptions, the forgone savings would amount to less than one-tenth of 1% of drug sales over the next eight years.

Our current patent regime serves Canadians well. According to the latest report from the Patented Medicine Prices Review Board, prices in Canada are 11% below the median foreign price and Canadians pay 40% less for patent drugs than do Americans. The amendments contained in Bill S-17 would not hinder the PMPRB's role of ensuring that Canadians do not pay excessive prices for drug prescriptions.

Bill S-17 has undergone scrutiny by committees in both houses of parliament. The Senate Standing Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce held hearings in March and April. As a result of the hearings I understand that committee members developed a common understanding that Bill S-17 was necessary to comply with WTO rulings.

On the more divisive issue of NOC linkage regulations, there was a general recognition from the Senate committee that they fell outside the scope of Bill S-17 and that now was not the time to address broader intellectual property rights.

The House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology held hearings in May. I would venture to say that there was a general recognition by most members of the committee that meeting our international obligations was important and that the passage of Bill S-17 was necessary to do so.

On the issue of the NOC linkage regulations, we heard that the early working exception and the NOC regulations, taken together, were an important part of our balanced approach. For the most part, members of the committee agree that it was a matter for another time. The immediate priority is the passage of Bill S-17 before the summer recess.

Bill S-17 contains the amendments necessary to bring the Patent Act into compliance with the WTO rulings. Neither the WTO rulings nor the proposed amendments would undermine the structure of the Canadian patent regime as it currently exists.

It is very important that innovation continue and be rewarded and that Canadians continue to have access to affordable drugs. The government's objective is to build a world class leading economy driven by innovation, ideas and talent. We need a strong and modern intellectual property framework to do so. The amendments contained in Bill S-17 would help maintain Canada's leadership in the global knowledge based economy.

I urge all members on both sides of the House to work together and move expeditiously to support the bill.

Patent ActGovernment Orders

11:40 a.m.

Canadian Alliance

Charlie Penson Canadian Alliance Peace River, AB

Madam Speaker, I rise today to speak to third reading of Bill S-17, an act to amend the Patent Act. I will be brief in my remarks.

The Canadian Alliance supports the bill and its intent to bring Canada's patent regime up to international standards. The purpose of Bill S-17 is to bring Canada's Patent Act into compliance with the trade related aspects of intellectual property rights agreement, or TRIPS, which Canada and all other members of the World Trade Organization have signed and must adhere to.

We in the Canadian Alliance recognize that sometimes at these international bodies we will win cases and sometimes we will lose. However it is a large group. Roughly 150 member countries make the decisions. Overall, Canada gains by the process of the rule of law. We are a small member country in terms of population but we have been very influential in bringing forward proposals to do away with subsidies and tariffs internationally since the end of the second world war.

That is what it is all about. Last fall the World Trade Organization found Canada's patent legislation to be deficient because patents introduced before 1989 were given only a 17 year protection, not 20 as required by the agreement we signed, the agreement called TRIPS.

We must therefore make the necessary amendments to the Patent Act. Bill S-17 would change section 45 of the act to provide a 20 year term of patent protection from the date of application.

About 30 patents in the pre-1989 act represent commercially significant patent drugs. The Canadian Drug Manufacturers Association, which represents the generic drug industry, has fully acknowledged that the Government of Canada must make legislative changes to the Patent Act to comply with its international trade obligations. However, the association has objected to what it claims is an imbalance in drug patent regulations, particularly the notice of compliance linkage regulations. It also talks about the two year stay process that is in place.

I agree that this is an important issue but it should not slow down the passage of Bill S-17 which is intended to bring us into compliance with the World Trade Organization. That body gave us until August to change our patent laws, so we must make the amendments as soon as possible.

The Canadian Alliance recognizes that the dispute over drug regulations should not be ignored but should be examined as a separate issue. The Minister of Industry has suggested that he will ask the committee to study the issue in the fall, and we concur completely. We should call witnesses and hear testimony on the important issue of regulations when it comes to drug patents after the 20 year process. We would encourage the committee next fall to take on the issue, listen to witnesses carefully and to make a judgment based on the information that comes before it.

I will talk a bit about how important it is for Canada to recognize and comply with rulings that are made when we sign important agreements such as the GATT under the World Trade Organization. We are a mid-sized trading nation. A large part of Canada's prosperity depends on our ability to sell our products abroad. We need the WTO and other trading agreements such as NAFTA to protect our international trade from unfair subsidies, countervailing duties and trade wars. Some may not like all the decisions coming out of the WTO but there is no question that overall we benefit from the stability and clarity the organization provides to world trade.

I will give an example of how we have gone off track from time to time and why it is necessary for us to work within the framework of these organizations. We need only look at the accelerated trade war between Canada and Brazil over regional jets. Despite winning several rounds at the WTO over the issue, the industry minister announced in January that the government would give an estimated $1.5 billion below market interest rate loan to Air Wisconsin to help Bombardier secure a regional jet contract.

While it sounds okay on the surface, the loan was described as a one time deal to save Canadian jobs threatened by Brazil's subsidies to its regional jet manufacturer, Embraer. Rather than make Brazil see the reason in this, Canada chose not to use the process in place at the World Trade Organization which is to exercise sanctions against a rogue nation that will not comply.

Rather than seeing the reason in this process, as the minister suggested, Brazil has dug in its heels over the issue and feels that it has to continue subsidizing as long as Canada is subsidizing as well. All those years of working within the WTO system on this issue are now in question, and I would suggest in jeopardy, because Canada has stooped to Brazil's level. There is no end in sight to this dispute.

Bombardier is now seeking another subsidized government backed loan for another one of its customers. That customer is Northwest Airlines, the fourth biggest airline in the United States. The industry minister is seeking that loan on behalf of the government so that Northwest can be enticed to purchase Bombardier jets rather than Embraer's.

This is less than five months from the time that the Minister of Industry told the House that this would be a one time deal to bring Brazil to its senses. It has not worked because Bombardier is back asking for another $1.5 billion to keep it going. The trade war goes on and on.

We have been working for 50 years with institutions like the general agreement on tariffs and trade. We went through a seven year process at the Uruguay round of the GATT to bring some sanity to the process of subsidies and tariffs. Canada was a leading nation. We were well respected for our ability to move the process forward. However Canada is now working outside the rules of the WTO.

If Canada is to have any credibility in future negotiations, particularly on the issue of compliance in the drug manufacturing debate, it needs to start to comply with these rulings and work within the framework.

The framework in the Bombardier dispute with Embraer was that on December 6 the World Trade Organization authorized Canada to impose $244 million in sanctions against Brazil to stop that unfair practice but Canada did not take that step. We were wrong in not doing that. That was the only method we had at the World Trade Organization and we chose to work outside the organization on that issue.

This points out that we need a rules based system. We have worked hard to develop it in the past. We know it is effective in cases like the Canadian Drug Manufacturers Association and its dispute in terms of the 20 year patent. Now Canada has moved to come into compliance with it. We need to continue that process and continue to work within the organization to build Canada's credibility in the future.

Other industries are watching, such as shipbuilding, agriculture, steel and softwood lumber. We need some resolve or some process to settle these disputes. Canada has been a leader for 50 years. If Canada will not work within the rules then who will?

Matching subsidies is sometimes called levelling the playing field, but the Canadian Alliance and I believe it is misguided policy. Instead taxpayers of the two countries involved end up subsidizing foreign airlines in this case.

A company in Arizona bought regional jets from Bombardier and is now saying that it did not get that kind of deal. It wants it too and is asking why it was given to everybody else. Instead of subsidizing Northwest Airlines in the United States, we should work within the framework of the WTO.

Coming back to the business of the drug patent law or patent law in general, we heard a lot of testimony in committee indicating that we need a strong intellectual property system in Canada so that those who come up with new ideas are able to realize some profit and protection for their property. I suggest it is no different in the area of drug patents. A reasonable length of time is required to recover the money. Once the patent is up, it is fine. The generic companies can then get involved and manufacture products which might be cheaper than research based pharmaceuticals.

I hope the important debate over notice of compliance and the regulations will take place next fall. I am looking forward to it, to see who is right on this issue. In the meantime it is very important for Canada to comply with the WTO rulings, bring Bill S-17 forward, and pass it as quickly as possible to bring us into compliance so that Canada is not a rogue nation but is working to try to resolve international issues in a reasonable manner.

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11:50 a.m.

Bloc

Madeleine Dalphond-Guiral Bloc Laval Centre, QC

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to intervene briefly this morning on Bill S-17.

This bill does not require a long intervention, because the principles involved are relatively clear and part of the daily life of people living in a democracy. Membership in an international organization implies acceptance of the organization's decisions.

The aim of Bill S-17 is essentially to comply with two decisions taken last year. The bill brings the Patent Act into line with the requirements of the WTO.

Quebec is especially proud to have operating within its economy a number of international pharmacology and biotechnology firms. Laval, for instance, is known for its science and high technology park, a model in the area.

What would happen if Canada decided not to comply with the Patent Act any more? Of course, there would be drawn out court proceedings, with all that involves. It would mean losses somewhere for Quebec's and Canada's economies.

The Bloc Quebecois will support Bill S-17. This support makes very clear the position a sovereign Quebec will take once it has the privilege and the right to sit at the table of nations and sign its own international agreements, which it will support.

This therefore is a dress rehearsal. Quebec will sign WTO agreements and recognize decisions made, because, in all good faith, this is how it would have signed international agreements.

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11:50 a.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Madam Speaker, I will comment on a number of different issues relating to the bill. A good number of them have been mentioned by other speakers but probably from a somewhat different context.

As someone who has been sitting on the committee dealing with the issue for a very short period of time among many other issues that were being rushed about, I will not make a point of rushing through the debate. Everyone else is talking about the need to be brief but I think this is one time when we should not be brief.

We are talking about an issue that relates to the health of Canadians and the health of people of the world, for that matter. It is related to the issue of patent protection and its relationship to drugs throughout the world.

I will comment on the brief period of time the Government of Canada has to deal with the issue and make sure it is passed to meet the WTO trade agreement. In its submission to the tribunal body which was ruling on the matter, the U.S. presented the reasons Canada had to comply by August 12. Normally a 14 month to 17 month period of time is given to countries to comply. In this case Canada got a whole lot less time. We got 10 months.

The U.S. submitted that Canada had a parliamentary system which would allow its government with its parliamentary majority to effectively ensure that whatever legislation it wants will be passed in a short period of time. The United States asserted that as past practice illustrated many bills had been swiftly passed by the government. For instance, in the 36th parliament 40 of the 78 government bills that received royal assent were passed in four months or less. Indeed bills have been enacted in as short a period of time as a week.

I suggest that the past practice of the government of not having full debate, full disclosure and full input from the people of Canada are the reasons Canada was given this brief period of time. It was because of the actions of the Liberal government.

According to the United States, with Canada's ability to promptly pass legislation, the underlying question was whether Canada would make the passage of the bill a priority in its legislative agenda.

The government did not make it a priority and did not start discussions on the bill some time ago. It brought in the bill a short time ago so there would be less discussion. Instead of bringing it through the elected House it brought it through the Senate, once again to delay the process where Canadians elected by Canadians would have the opportunity to speak their minds on the issue. What we have is very limited discussion on the whole issue of patent legislation.

We should not have to wait until the fall of this year to have a discussion which really needs to be had. I listened to my colleague in the Alliance and I was thoroughly disgusted with his comments. He was saying that we would discuss it in the fall and hear the positions then. We should not have to wait until the fall. We should have pursued the issue a whole lot sooner.

When something as important as the health of Canadians and of people of the world is at stake, why would we wait until the fall to discuss this important issue? It is probably one of the single most important issues we have been discussing for a period of time, and it is to be rushed through.

That ends my comments with regard to why we are passing the legislation through the House so quickly. I will now discuss why we have the issue before us at all. At one time Canada would not have been subjected to rulings of the World Trade Organization which said that we had to move as a country on a decision.

We decided to have 17 year patent legislation, which is no short period of time. I challenge any drug company to say that it has not received its return a hundredfold in 17 years. It is not a matter of getting a return on research investment. It is a matter of pure and simple greed by drug companies. Prior to the legislation not a drug company was suffering. If there was a need for more research dollars the government had a responsibility to respond to that need.

The issue between the 17 years and 20 years is a matter of pure and simple greed. It is the same pure and simple greed that led a number of wonderful drug companies to work in collusion to increase the price of an additive to vitamins and other medications a few years back. They all ended up charged. It was pure and simple greed. They were not making enough billions of dollars. They wanted many billion more. We are not dealing with companies that have corporate ethics and the well-being of the world as their primary concerns.

I am not suggesting for a second that we do not need trade regulations. I am not suggesting that we do not need recognition of patent protection. I am saying that we have gone beyond reasonable patent protection to pure and simple greed.

At one time we did not have the World Trade Organization. Therefore we did not have to meet those regulations. At one time we would have had countries fighting for what would benefit the people, not for corporations making a profit. We now have a number of countries agreeing to get together, not to do what is best for the people of the world but purely for the profit of corporations.

Who do we want negotiating on our behalf when we have governments negotiating patent agreements up because they believe it is right for people to have to pay millions of dollars more for their drugs? I suggest that those negotiating are not doing their job. Those government representatives should be saying that it is out of hand and that they are not doing what is best for the people of the world. They should be negotiating those patent agreements down, not up. If our representative is not doing that he is not doing his job for the people of Canada.

That is where the changes have to be made. It is not okay to accept the fact that we have a World Trade Organization that is protecting profits for corporations and not ensuring the well-being of people of the world.

The whole issue was related to drugs. I will fall back on a comment my colleague in the Alliance mentioned, that we cannot have rogue states. Was it a rogue state that went out and said that it wanted AIDS medications cheaper, otherwise people would die off by the thousands? Was that a rogue state or was that a government acting responsibly for its people that said it would continue producing generic drugs and to heck with World Trade Organization rulings because that was good for people, not corporations?

I will comment on the specific regulations that seem to have created the greatest problem at this point, recognizing that the Liberal government's approach to getting legislation through quickly, recognizing that we are part of the World Trade Organization and recognizing that by August 12 we need the bill through. We know it will be passed.

There are some issues that the government could have addressed in the legislation that it has failed to address. First is the notice of compliance regulations. In the period of time available to us it is difficult to explain the whole process of the notice of compliance regulations, which have to come through the Department of Health, and their effect. Ultimately it lengthens the amount of time it takes generic drugs to get on the market.

It has been suggested that the period of time will not mean a great increase, but I suggest it could be $50 million for the few drugs that may be affected. We in the New Democratic Party are often criticized because we say it is not that much money. I can tell the House that $50 million is a lot of money. Nobody in the New Democratic Party thinks any differently. We just do not like the government's priorities on a number of issues, but $50 million is a lot of money.

As a result of the change from 17 years to 20 years in the patent regulations it could mean $300 million over a period of time. That is a lot of money. It is a huge amount of money. The notice of compliance regulations could have been addressed.

Rulings were made in the Senate committee. It made recommendations with regard to notice of compliance. Patent or brand name drug manufacturers came up with automatic injunctions against the generic companies to delay the process. A comment was made by the supreme court. As a result the Senate committee recognized that the observations were outside the purview of Bill S-17. It also indicated that the minister said that things would be looked at. I am just giving a general view of it.

The Supreme Court of Canada criticized the notice of compliance regulations, describing them as draconian. The high court ruling indicated that to subject generic drug producers to such a draconian regime would be manifestly unjust. Generic drugs are kept out of the market immediately, without any consideration of the merits of either position. According to Judge Iacobucci, manufacturers of generic drugs were entitled to market their products years earlier.

We are not talking about an issue that could not be dealt with in the legislation or that would affect the trade ruling. It would not.

Another area of the bill that would not affect the trade ruling is the right of the government to make regulations related to stockpiling. We have already met the criteria of no longer allowing stockpiling right now. That is not happening. Why is it necessary to remove the right of the government to put that stockpiling back in should there be a change in the World Trade Organization ruling? Why not leave the right of the government to make that regulation?

Governments are supposed to be doing what is best for the people of their countries, not meeting World Trade Organization rulings. Therefore that regulation could have been left in. We would have adhered to the World Trade Organization ruling but still left in the right of the government to make the regulations.

Another issue the bill dealt with was ensuring that we went from 17 years to 20 years to make sure that the World Trade Organization ruling was met. However a number of patents go beyond 20 years. Instead of the bill making everybody fall within the 20 years, some patents out there will be allowed to go beyond 20 years. Why they were not all brought into the same 20 years is beyond me.

At one of the final meetings of the committee it was suggested that once we give someone the right to be over 20 years we cannot really take it back. There seemed to be a question of that not being the case, that as a government we pass legislation and that is the way it has to be. It leads us to question why all patents would not have been brought down to 20 years. If we could move them from 17 years to 20 years, certainly those that had 23 years protection could have been brought down to 20 years as well.

The bill is not coming before the House to benefit the people of Canada. It will not benefit the shortage of dollars in our health care system. Quite frankly it will tax our health care system that much more. Again, what kind of negotiator agrees to something like that?

I would like to refer to another area that has not yet been discussed. I represent a number of first nations communities. At a time when we are looking toward allowing first nations people the right to self-government and the right to look after their own affairs, I am extremely concerned with the shortage of adequate funds to provide the overall services first nations communities need.

From what I have seen in the area of health transfers I have real concern that dollars were cut in the last year or so before health transfers were to take place. I am happy to say that a number of first nations communities are treading very slowly into health transfer now because of that. They have recognized that they were being shorted on funds to look after their health services. They knew that taking over those health services would be tough.

At a time when first nations communities should be given adequate funds to take over their health services and want to do it, I am extremely concerned that we are accepting legislation that will increase the cost of health services to a large degree to first nations people.

Because of the conditions they have been living in, a higher majority of first nations people end up in our health care system for a variety of reasons. Each and every one of those first nations communities will have increased costs related to health care. From what I have seen they do not get the needed support dollar-wise or the increased support they need on a year to year basis. I am truly concerned that they will bear a greater portion of the bad effects of the legislation.

We have heard the U.S. position on how things get done by the Government of Canada, so I know the bill will pass. When first nation communities tell us that the dollars they are being given for health care just do not cut it, we will need increased resources because of the increased cost of medications. When the provinces tell us that they do not have enough money to provide our health care because of the increased cost, we will need to make sure that they are getting increased dollars to provide those services.

That is what this debate is about. It is about being forced into the position of having to ration what we have because we do not have the dollars to provide the services. That is largely due to a lack of priorities within the federal government.

There is no question that preventive health care is the best route, preventive measures for sure, but in the interim we must make sure we have the dollars to provide much needed medications and other services.

I urge all members to recognize that in the upcoming years after we pass the legislation. Even though it may only affect 30-odd medications, some of them are high cost medications that people just cannot do without right now.

I am getting to the end of my comments on the legislation. I know that my colleague from Winnipeg, our health critic, has her thoughts to add to it. She has seen firsthand and dealt with the issue for a number of years. She has been greatly involved for a number of years and has listened to people throughout Canada who have felt the impact of the previous increase in the patent legislation.

Certainly seniors groups around the country have indicated their objection. There is no question that seniors were a vibrant force the last time the legislation came before the House. Because of that the government of the day was made to feel some shame over what it was doing. When the present industry minister was in opposition he felt the same way as those seniors did, that it was unacceptable the government would allow it to happen.

That is part of the reason the government took a roundabout route to getting the legislation before the House this time. I commend seniors for their fight in the past. I know we will join them in the future as we continue to make sure the government acknowledges that it should be doing what is best for Canadians and not just for corporate profit.

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12:10 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I begin by commending and commenting on the work of the NDP industry critic, the member for Churchill. She has done an incredible job of following the bill, pursuing amendments and making suggestions all the way through the process.

The member indicated my background in health care. I was the culture minister in 1986 and I was health critic for the NDP in the Manitoba legislature from 1990 onward. I had to deal with the ramifications of the Conservative government in Ottawa making drastic changes to the Patent Act which put us on the course we are on today.

At that time we tried very hard to get the Conservative government of Manitoba to speak out against Bill C-91 that had been brought in by the Mulroney Conservatives. We failed in terms of trying to ensure that provincial voices registered clear opposition to those very regressive moves. The battle continues today.

My questions for the member for Churchill are threefold. Since she has followed the process and been on the committee, I should like to know from her whether or not the government gave any indication of caving in further to the World Trade Organization and extending patent protection even further since we know from some of the documentary around this issue that the United States government has said it would see 20 years as a minimum.

I would also like to know whether she heard any explanations for the flip-flop by the Liberals on this issue between pre-1993 and the actions taken since they became government.

Finally I would like to know if she heard anything from the government throughout the committee process about alternatives to dramatically increasing prices in the field of drugs and solutions for a very serious problem in Canada today.

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12:10 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I do not know if I can answer all the member's questions in the period of time I have available. I was extremely annoyed toward the end of our committee hearings to hear some comments that maybe 20 years was not enough.

I have already been quite sickened by the process of bringing the bill through the Senate and by the speed with which we are pushing it through the House without adequate consultation. My colleague from the Alliance hopes that we get a chance in the fall to really discuss the bill and hear different points of view. However, the bottom line is that we should not be approving the bill without having heard all the facts and recognizing that it is not legislation that will benefit people.

I was also sickened to hear comments saying that it was not enough. I would refer to my point that this is pure and simple greed. It is not a matter of not getting money back on our investment. I would not suggest that for a second, but we have gone beyond that. It is pure and simple greed.

Why is there this flip-flop by the government? We in opposition often hear comments that the government does it all wrong the moment it gets in. I would suggest that the present industry minister was very vocal and critical of the Tory government when it was going about this process but who had an absolute flip-flop once he showed up in the House in the last couple of years.

I would suggest that the flip-flop is due to the major lobbying effort by the brand name drug manufacturers of the government side. Major investment dollars from the brand name drug manufacturing companies go to the Liberals. I would suggest that has carried far more weight than it should have. It is disappointing. I want Canadians to be on guard and to know that there was a suggestion of increasing the patent protection even further.

I want us all to hold each and every member of the government accountable for every increased health dollar that has to be spent as a result of the legislation or any increases that they might be thinking about. I want the government to continually be taken to task this summer. I want the people in Canada to be a force out there and let the government know that it is not acceptable.

I heard my colleague from the Bloc indicate that the Bloc is in agreement because there are a lot of drug manufacturers in its province. I want the people of Quebec to also hold the Bloc and its members accountable.

Anybody who supports the legislation is, in my view, wasting valuable health care dollars as a result of pure and simple greed.

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12:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, I always enjoy listening to the hon. member. She has some interesting ideas and of course some of them I have heard many times before having been raised in Saskatchewan which is true CCF and now NDP country.

I would like to pose a problem to her. If I build a house, whether I build it with my own hands or hire some workers to help me, it is mine. I and my family can live in it for as long as we wish. There is no time limitation on the ownership of that house. Similarly, if I build an apartment, I can rent out the suites in it and I can collect the rent. There is not a 17 or a 20 year time period after which she can come in with her socialist friends and start collecting the rent on half of the suites.

I happened to be a computer programmer in a previous life. I am now incompetent in that area so no one should call me. Over the last eight years I have fallen way behind. However I used to write computer programs which are now intellectual property. I would like to know from the hon. member how many years I should have the ownership of a program and be able to sell it before she can sell it and keep the money from the program that I have produced.

The simple point I am making is that R and D for these drugs companies costs millions of dollars. The legislation says that after a certain time, even though a company spent the money and did it, it is no longer theirs and somebody else can take that result and use it to produce money for themselves. How does she reconcile that?

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12:20 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that it is fair. I have said that there needs to be a reasonable period of time where there is patent protection.

On the issue of rental properties, we saw the need to implement landlord and tenant agreements because there were landlords out there who were gouging tenants and tenants out there who were not treating the rental properties properly. They were implemented under provincial legislation so it is not unheard of.

Even though there might be millions of other people out in the world who have the same knowledge, they may not get a patent in the nick of time. How often have we heard about a particular company rushing to patent something before another company does? It is not as if it is only this one individual who has the intelligence.

We have recognized that while we are going to give companies the right of first to the post and to allow a patent, we also have to recognize they are not the only ones with any degree of intelligence and that there has to be time limits on that patent. I am suggesting that the limits we are going by now are as a result of greed and not the right to get one's investment back. I am not saying that a person cannot make a profit, but the bottom line is that it has gone way beyond.

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12:20 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Ken Epp Canadian Alliance Elk Island, AB

Mr. Speaker, this is the best news I have heard for a long time. One of the things I did in my previous life was write computer programs. I wrote a word processing program before Bill Gates had even thought of it. However, even though I had the intelligence, he managed to patent it first, which means that now after the 20 years is up I get one half of his money. I am very appreciative.

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12:20 p.m.

NDP

Bev Desjarlais NDP Churchill, MB

Mr. Speaker, if the member were more open to a different political view he would have a right to some of Mr. Gates' money, but not half because he did not make it first to the post.

No one is suggesting for a second that there should not be rules but we really need to balance the rights of the patent and the rights of the rest of the world. That is the most important thing. Above all, people need to come first no matter what we are dealing with.

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June 5th, 2001 / 12:20 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

Mr. Speaker, I have listened with interest to much of the debate by previous members who have made a very compelling case and bring a great deal of passion to this particular debate. This is understandable when we are talking about drugs, whether they be generic or manufactured, in the first instance, from a pharmaceutical company. We know those drugs are often the lifesaving instrument for many individuals.

However, when we talk about consistency and the business elements of this issue, one has to agree that the WTO, although it has not set an arbitrary length of time, it has set 20 years for the life of a patent. Canada is presently not fitting within that guideline.

A ruling has given rise to Bill S-17, the legislation that is before us, and there is an effort on the part of the Canadian government and this parliament, through the legislation, to be consistent and in line with what the WTO has said.

When applied to drug development and production, the whole notion of intellectual property and property protection becomes a very divisive issue. It is an issue that in many ways pits certain sectors of this industry against one another. Patent protection and commercial opportunities for Canadians and Canadian pharmaceutical companies are on one side of the coin, while on the other side we hear and are certainly cognizant of the need for cost effective access to these new drugs and these technologies. Therefore there is no question that there is an element of competing interest here.

It is important to recognize that without a high degree of investment in research and development there would never be this particular dilemma that we have before us. Pharmaceutical companies do require an incentive just like any other business. It therefore stands to reason that they would want to be the beneficiaries of their efforts. They want the ability to profit from their toil and their labour in the same manner afforded other industries. This type of protection is such that it allows companies to receive that reward. In a global economy, it also encourages companies to come to Canada to avail themselves of that particular protection.

I speak with some personal knowledge. I have a colleague in the House from New Brunswick who has been the recipient of drugs aimed at the treatment of cancer. There are other very serious illnesses, such as AIDS, which these types of drugs are aimed specifically at. Some of these drugs can alleviate the symptoms or even put the disease in remission. The member from New Brunswick tells me that the environment created through this type of legislation allows companies to come to Canada. The rationale behind the original legislation in the 1990s was to allow pharmaceutical companies that come to Canada to be open to the same type of protection found in other countries.

Like many other pieces of legislation, this legislation has been put forward to ensure that Canadian companies can be competitive in the world market, not just in North America and not just with companies here but to see that there is a level of consistency and an invitation to companies to come here and allow them to have the patent protection that they would find in the United States, the United Kingdom or other countries.

The ruling handed down has significant implications. If Canada does not choose to follow the ruling or if it somehow lags behind, there are grave implications. This is the rationale behind encouraging companies to come here and do their research and development. To be the beneficiary of this, we need to have a parity with other countries.

Pharmaceutical companies that are doing research and development, the scientific background and the leg work that leads to the invention of drugs, which later become the subject of generic drugs, must to be encouraged to come to Canada. That is not to suggest that there are not occasions when generic drugs cannot play a significant role. However there is a level of patent benefit that should flow, whether it be for 10, 15 or 20 years.

The continuing argument of the Progressive Conservative Party has been that we need to be consistent. Canada has to be in line with what the WTO has said about the issue. We have to ensure that availability and access is achieved. Our efforts must be placed on lobbying in terms of making a case for access and availability of these very important drugs.

With respect to this issue and with respecting the credibility of where the government is coming from on this particular issue, there is some inconsistency that bears some mentioning.

The government took a very different stand during the initial debate in the 1990s and in particular in 1999 when the matter first came before parliament. It is fair to say that the Minister of Industry himself perhaps set a whole new standard for hypocrisy and probably raised the bar to a whole new level, such that it would make the most blatant hypocrite blush when looking at the record.

The inclusion of the current provisions in the bill were very similar and very consistent with the original position taken by the Progressive Conservatives in the 1980s. We have already heard other members mention this, but let me state what the Minister of Industry had to say initially about this particular issue. In Hansard on April 7, 1987, the current Minister of Industry said:

It is inconceivable to me that Parliament finds it necessary yet again to deal with yet another measure proposed by the Government because it is bound and chained by some ideological dictate which says this kind of Patent Act is necessary.

He went on to expound upon the evils of the direction that the government of day was headed in. He said:

The citizens will need more than generic drugs to recover from the festering wounds which are about to be inflicted on the exposed ankles of Canada's poorest citizens when the Minister sinks his teeth in, past the bone, into the marrow and sucks the life's blood out of Canada's poorest citizens with Bill C-22.

Bill C-22 was of course the forerunner to this.

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Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Yes, that's what he was reading from. He wasn't reading from his speech.

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Progressive Conservative

Peter MacKay Progressive Conservative Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS

I hear some chirping across the way. Heaven forbid that we put into the record the actual words spoken by the Minister of Industry, the minister of reversals, the minister of rat packers, who has now in his new reincarnation completely reversed himself. He has somersaulted 180° from where he was. He has swallowed himself whole. He has done so time and again. He did so along with other members of the government on the GST, free trade, Pearson airport, helicopters and privatization. The list goes on.

Perhaps most recent and most pronounced was his reversal in terms of his commitment to the people of Newfoundland to stay in provincial politics. When the bell rang and there was an opportunity to better himself, lo and behold, he answered that bell and came to Ottawa.

While all that huffing, puffing and blowing and all the harping against the government was going on when he was among the unwashed in the opposition, he certainly made a wonderful case.

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Liberal

Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I have been here since the beginning of the debate and I have listened very intently to the merits of the debate, the points at issue in the discussion. The member opposite, who is usually fairly eloquent in expressing his views and the people's views on what should be discussed, has now ranted on for the better part of three minutes in what can best be characterized as character assassination.

Far be it for me to come to the defence of other members in the House who are capable of defending themselves but let us get—

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An hon. member

He's quoting his words.

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The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)

I understand the member. I do not know if he is right or not but let us be careful and judicious in our choice of words.