Debates of Sept. 20th, 2001

Business of the House

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I wonder whether the government House Leader would indicate whether it is the intention of the Prime Minister to be present in the House tonight during that debate to outline his plans in Washington and to receive directly the advice and views of members of the House of Commons?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, this debate is not at the request of the government. It is at the request of opposition members of the House. As a government--

[An hon. member]

Answer the question.

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Perhaps if it is a question for which the hon. member is awaiting the answer, it will take time.

Given that the debate tonight is at the request of the opposition, the government is doing its best to accommodate the request. I, as a minister, intend to be here for part of the debate. Some of the parliamentary secretaries will be here. Members of course will be making their comments available both to the public and to the Prime Minister.

As to the presence of any individual, the Prime Minister for that matter or any other minister, it is too early to tell at this time which ministers will be available for the purpose of the debate should it take place. All these items are being negotiated virtually within the last minutes.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I may have missed a nuance. Will the Prime Minister be here tonight?

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Mr. Speaker, there is no nuance. I told the right hon. leader of the Conservative Party that I was not able to confirm the presence of any particular minister at this time, let alone the Prime Minister. This request was made only a few hours ago and some of it was being negotiated during the question period, which ended eight minutes ago. That information is not yet available to me, as I have just explained.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. the government House Leader have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

The House resumed consideration of the motion that Bill C-15, an act to amend the criminal code and to amend other acts, be read the second time and referred to a committee, and of the amendment.

Criminal Law Amendment Act, 2001

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I will take time to re-establish the direction in which I was going. I suggested that the omnibus bill had raised a number of questions. Constituents have asked questions and I have asked two questions that were at the heart of what I was asking. First, is the bill for the protection of children and second, is it for the protection of animals?

I will move from that to include some remarks made by some associations around the country to which I have referred. I have a letter from the cattlemen's association. It has expressed some of the same opinions that some of our members have expressed. For instance, one of its main concerns is the following:

It is mistaken ever to imagine that animals could have “interests” or “rights” requiring protection. In a civil society, there can only be “interests” or “rights” where there is reciprocity. Canadians enjoy their legal rights because they go hand-in-hand with corresponding legal duties.

The association went on to say:

That does not mean that humans have no duty to protect animals from cruelty. But such a duty does not and cannot arise from animal “interests” or “rights”. The manner in which we treat animals is a matter of public morals and virtue.

Those are perhaps two foreign words but I agree with them.

Similarly, the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association said:

Our association's support for the bill is based on our interpretation of the amendments and on the hope that they will not compromise and criminalize the accepted practices in regard to the treatment or use of animals, including some recognized activities such as agriculture, hunting, fishing, trapping--

It went on to say that the CVMA recommends that a preamble to the bill indicate some recognized practices for the treatment and use of animals that are to be governed by the bill. In other words, it wants clarification on the practices. The dairy farmers of Canada indicated basically the same thing.

The following is my next question. Why has the government proposed such a diverse objective all in one bill? It seems like a senseless attempt to address such diverse issues as the abuse of children and the abuse of animals in the same act, to amend the criminal code and other acts. It may be correct and allowable from a parliamentary perspective but there is a significant gap in these issues. It leaves one curious as to how the government expects to gain support for legislation drafted in that manner.

Members of the House could have spent the entire summer trying to make sense to their constituents as to why this approach was taken. Is it about people? Is it about animals? Is it about guns? Is it about national defence? What is the bill about?

Is it the most effective way to gain majority consent of the House in support of the legislation? One would have to understand that this is not the way to build consensus. It is not the way to pass legislation. It is only a way to divide and, I suggest, there was an intent to divide rather than to bring together.

It is apparent that this is not the most effective way to gain support. The government has not been open to amendments to the legislation and especially regarding the application of the criminal code respecting agriculture.

Is it simply a procedural tactic to force members of the House to support legislation regardless of the flaws inherent? It seems that this legislative approach is merely a tactical procedure to gain passage of ambiguous and questionable sections of the act regarding animal agriculture and gun registries on the back of sections regarding child protection, which the government fully realizes the House would support.

Why has the government weakened the legislation by including certain sections that it fully realizes has soured support. It is apparent to any reasonable person that the legislation is flawed and weakened.

It is a contrived attempt by the government to divide those who want to support the good amendments. We have encouraged the government to consider amendments to this legislation in order to gain full support of the responsible members on both sides of the House. It has refused in order to continue to play its petty political games.

Is the government brazenly tempting opposition members to oppose this legislation for its own political gain or does it simply not understand the consequences of its own legislation that it expects the House to support?

I believe the government deliberately set out to tempt members to oppose this legislation. If this was its intent, then it has succeeded. I cannot in good conscience support the legislation on behalf of my constituents.

Again I ask: What is the real purpose of the bill? I have to say that I do not believe it has anything to do with the attempt to give good democratic consideration of legislation.

[John Bryden, Liberal, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON]

Mr. Speaker, a little later on in the debate I hope to do a formal speech myself, but I do want to note for the parliamentary record that the animal rights provisions in this particular piece of legislation appeared in the previous parliament in a much cruder form. It is worthy of note that the Department of Justice did make a number of very significant changes to the animal cruelty provisions that exist before us. However this is not to say that further improvements are not possible. There are some on this side of the House who share some of the concerns expressed on the other side.

However we should all understand that the whole purpose of second reading debate is to discuss these flaws and see whether or not the committee will support the concerns expressed in the debate and make the appropriate recommendations to the minister.

[Larry Spencer, Canadian Alliance, Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I would hope, by the hon. member's comments, that it could be under further consideration. However, when the amendments and suggestions were originally brought out in committee they were passed over as unimportant. We have to rattle a few chains and make a few challenges in order to get attention back to this issue.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I knows this goes in Hansard so I hope not too many people read it. It is not often that I agree with my Alliance colleagues but on the issue of whether the bill is about animals or children I agree with the hon. member. He says the issues should have been talked about in separate bills. He is absolutely correct. We New Democrats say the same.

A former colleague of ours, the hon. Chris Axworthy who is now the Saskatchewan justice minister, introduced a bill in the House many years ago to protect children from Internet pornography. Another former colleague of ours, Mr. Gordon Earle, introduced an even broader bill. Bill C-210 would have expanded that protection to material which advocated, promoted or incited racial hatred and violence against women or other minorities.

I will pick up on what the previous member was saying about whether the current bill is about animals or children. Many Canadians are confused about this. If the House were at all mature or responsible it would never in its wildest dreams have combined the two issues.

When it comes to cruelty to animals there are many debates about that topic alone. It is of concern to farmers, hunters, aboriginal communities and people in urban centres. When it comes to the issue of child pornography the mere act of discussing it on the Internet incites debate throughout the country.

It is folly to think we can debate the two issues in the same bill. It is simple nonsense. Only the Liberals could do something like that. It is incredible that they would even attempt to get away with it. If they had separated the bill as some of my colleagues had asked them to prior to the summer recess, strong child pornography legislation might be in place as we speak.

However we went through the entire summer without further debate. The government twiddled its thumbs and sat on the issue. As a father of two young girls, it is imperative that the House of Commons and all legislatures across the country do everything they can to protect our children.

One of my concerns in taking over Mr. Chris Axworthy's bill and reintroducing it into the House has been that with the rapid rise of Internet use an awful lot of children have been inadvertently getting sucked into a trap by pedophiles. It is one of the greatest sins anyone can commit on a child.

Children have a fascination with television sets and the Internet. No matter how well parents or guardians protect their children, look over their shoulders and examine everything they do on a computer, no one can be there 24 hours a day to watch what children do.

Pedophiles are extremely intelligent at using the right words and terminology to entice our children into these traps. There are far too many examples where children of all ages have been sucked into that trap and dire consequences have been the result.

What do we have? We have a bill in the House of Commons which combines the protection of children with cruelty to animals. We must be the laughingstock of all legislatures in the free world when it comes to this type of debate. There is probably no precedent in the Commonwealth or anywhere else where a government in its right mind has combined the protection of animals with the protection of children.

What are we saying about children? Are we comparing them to cats and dogs? Are we comparing them to cattle? Are we comparing them to game? Is this what we are doing? That is the impression the omnibus bill gives. It is simple nonsense to think we can have a rational debate on these or any other subjects in the bill.

We cannot presume to tell Canadians, after the bill is passed by Liberal majorities in the House and Senate, that we can protect children. It does not make sense.

We ask the government to quickly split the issues into separate bills. It could put the cruelty to animals issue in one bill, the child pornography issue in another, the gun issue in another and so on. This way there could be fair and equitable debate in the House of Commons.

As a father of two young girls who is extremely nervous about the big, bad world in terms of Internet pornography I urge the government to look at the previous bills, Bill C-212 and Bill C-210. They are already done up. The government can take them, steal them or do whatever it wants but it should incorporate them into its legislation and do so quickly. I am sure that after reviewing the bills all members of the House would support their measures and pass them quickly.

If we can pass a retroactive pay raise within a couple of days, surely to God we can pass legislation to protect our children from the infamous pedophiles and dangerous criminals who are out there.

Mr. Speaker, I thank you for the time on behalf of my children and all the children of Canada. The government and all legislators should do what we can to protect children from danger on the Internet and elsewhere.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to what the hon. member said, and indeed, he is right on a number of points.

I would simply like the hon. member to enlighten the House. I want to make sure that I understood the thrust of his speech. Everyone knows that there are a number of subjects covered in the omnibus bill, Bill C-15, before the House. There are a number of subjects amended in the criminal code.

Am I correct in understanding that he would like the government to follow up on the opposition's request to split Bill C-15 into several bills, including one that could deal with, as the hon. member stated so well, sexual exploitation and the whole issue of the use of the Internet in order to gain access to children. Another bill could deal with criminal harassment, and another with home invasion.

Am I correct in understanding that a number of these bills would not be contested by his party, in other words, that they would give their consent fairly quickly? Or perhaps he could even give it immediately and tell the government “Here are the subjects on which we agree and on which we would like to proceed quickly. Here are the other subjects that we consider problematic, and in which the House should invest more time, in order to examine some particular aspect of the bill, because it deserves a more in-depth study”.

My question is quite simple. I would like to hear from the hon. member from the New Democratic Party what exactly is not contested by his party and that he would like to have passed quickly, and what is problematic. Could he distinguish between the two so that it can be determined as specifically as possible which elements of the bill are problematic and which are not?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from the Bloc Quebecois for his questions. I must speak without the privilege of consulting my justice critic, the member for Winnipeg--Transcona, on what our party would quickly pass and what it would send to committee. However speaking for myself I would probably fight for anything to do with children, Internet pornography and so on. I would do everything I could to convince my party to pass such legislation quickly.

When it comes to cruelty to animals the bill should go to committee to allow the general public further discussion. The same is true for the gun concerns of police officers.

Although I cannot speak for my party without consulting other members I can rest assured that when it comes to protecting children from Internet child pornography our party would quickly support such legislation.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Madam Speaker, it is my privilege to say a few words regarding a bill we should perhaps not be speaking about in its entirety.

It is strange that there is unanimity on one side of the House on how to approach the bill and yet people on the other side have their heads in the sand and refuse to address it in its different aspects, something which would make a tremendous amount of common sense.

If I suggested we go for a walk on a newly constructed hiking trail on which there was a lot of mud and bog and where it would be rough going, and that on the way back we stop to participate in a formal dance, I would probably be told that I was off my head because I could not dress for both occasions.

This is exactly the position we find ourselves in. We have two complete unlikes to which we are expected to say yes or no even though many members of the House, and surely many members on the other side, cannot justifiably support the bill as it is structured.

There are parts of the bill our party can support wholeheartedly although we would like to see further discussion and perhaps more amendments. We would like the bill strengthened, especially in relation to child pornography, although we strongly support that part of it.

Many people who stand in this honourable House have families of their own. Many of us have younger children who spend a lot of time on the Internet and we realize the dangers which confront them daily. We in our party agree with strengthening the law as it pertains to child pornography on the Internet.

However concerns must be clarified in relation to the liability of service providers that could be inadvertently drawn into problems which might arise when people use their services for illegal means.

The bill as it is structured would give us much more strength than was previously there to combat this growing problem. As members know, it has been made quite clear by our intelligence people that child pornography on the Internet is increasing with the use of the Internet. Undoubtedly that makes sense.

Now is the time to start addressing this serious concern. This should be done by people who are prepared and trained to do so. We must be able to identify the problems and identify those using the Internet for illicit means.

The section on child pornography is quite good but it is lumped in with a section on cruelty to animals. There are parts of that section which everyone supports. No one would support cruelty to animals as the term is ordinarily used.

However animals are used for many purposes. One that comes to mind is research. This issue is of major concern to our universities. There are people who would like to see such research discontinued.

How many people in the world, young and old, are alive today because of advancements in medicine that have occurred only because of scientific experimentation on animals? Many of the cures we avail ourselves of today were discovered by experiments on animals.

Many of the cures that we hope to see in the future are presently being worked on because of the experimentation in various labs in our scientific institutions, especially in universities across the country and around the world. Many of the people involved have severe concerns about whether or not they would be implicated under the new legislation. That is a section of the bill that has to be debated and refined much further than at present.

We have people who make their livelihoods in the agriculture industry by raising animals for food and other uses. Undoubtedly all of them have concerns about whether or not the legislation could jeopardize their livelihood. This legislation has not been refined to the point where the people involved are satisfied. Indeed the legislators on this side of the House are not satisfied.

When it comes to gun control most of us on this side advocate the elimination of long guns from the regulations. We are acting as if everyone who owns a gun in Canada is a criminal. Many people in rural regions make a living for their families and subsidize their incomes through hunting. This could be jeopardized if the legislation is not clarified.

The government is asking us to nod our heads to a piece of legislation with which we cannot agree. The section on child pornography should be taken out of the present bill and dealt with separately. Many of the other parts of the bill can be passed immediately. There are sections which have to be further debated, refined and dealt with separately. Child pornography cannot be dealt with in the same pot as other sections of the bill.

Hopefully the people on the other side will feel the same way we do. We all come from the same parts of the country. It is not like the people on the government side come from a part of the country that is not affected by gun control or by using animals one way or another for research or for livelihood purposes. We all come from the same regions. Surely the people who come to us with concerns are going to them as well.

All of us in the House have to be concerned with child pornography. Undoubtedly we should deal with that as quickly as possible. Every day is another day when some child is being victimized. However other sections of the bill have to be changed or eliminated.

If the House leader will not do it on his own, I am hopeful the people affected in the same way as we are will put enough pressure on the government to split the bill. We could then deal with the aspects that need to be dealt with and they can be dispensed with very quickly. We could deal with the rest of them as we go through committee and debate. It is my hope it can be brought back in a form that we can all support.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, it is a pleasure to be back in the House to speak to Bill C-15. Before I begin my speech I want to say hi to Mike Harris. I am not referring to Mike Harris, the premier of Ontario, although I admire him very much, but to Mike Harris, the son of our whip who is in the lobby today. He is a great guy and is the biggest fan of the Prince George Cougars.

The other day my wife and I were walking by the U.S. embassy. I was just amazed at the outpouring of sympathy for what has happened in the United States. Canadians from across the country have showered the U.S. embassy with flowers, cards and their thoughts about how much they feel for the people of the United States and for the people around the world who were affected by the World Trade Center bombing. I do not think there is anyone who would not be moved by this outpouring of sympathy for our friends in the United States.

On behalf of the residents of the Medicine Hat constituency, I offer our sympathies to Ambassador Cellucci, President Bush and the people of the United States. The Americans are our best friends and have been throughout our time as a country. We have to stand with them in these difficult times.

As we debate Bill C-15 there are many people that feel there are more important things to be debating than Bill C-15. In light of the attack on the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the plane crash in Pennsylvania, many people have questioned whether or not Canada is prepared to deal with the sorts of events that occurred south of the border.

They feel, and rightly so, that this is the place where we should be debating those things, not just for one or two days but until there is some sense that Canada has a handle on some of the implications of those attacks and some of the planning that needs to occur for us to go forward. There are many aspects to it.

I do not want this to be a partisan debate but I do feel there is real concern about parliament being relevant at a critical time like this one. Although there are very important elements to Bill C-15, the issues of safety and security should be brought forward for serious debate in which we lay out some of the public's concerns.

For example, there are issues about the safety of our international border: whether or not proper screening is done of people who come into this country, whether or not proper resources are devoted to gathering intelligence, and whether or not the people crossing our borders are coming here for the right reasons.

I hasten to add that the huge majority of people who come to this country are here for the right reasons. They are good and responsible people who want to come and contribute to this country. However there are people who come here for all of the wrong reasons.

There have been reports of people connected to terrorist organizations who have come to Canada. They may even be connected to the World Trade Center bombing. People are rightly concerned about this issue. They want to know that our government has taken steps to deal with such things and that it has not been negligent at some point in the past. These things should be debated in this place.

Some of the other implications that flow from it are equally important. People are now concerned about what provisions are in place when it comes to air travel. If there is to be less air travel, that will have an impact on the economy and on the viability of air carriers. Air Canada is asking for $3 billion to bail it out of trouble.

Those are the sorts of things we should be debating today as opposed to Bill C-15. We should be debating the state of the Canadian military. We talked a bit about it in question period, but that debate should not be limited to question period. These are the things that grip the country. I do not understand and I am sure the public does not understand why we cannot have free ranging debates in this place when these are the things that concern the public.

One of the things that must concern the public in the wake of the World Trade Center attack is the impact it will have on the Canadian economy. People were simply so gripped by what was going on in the United States that they sat in front of their televisions for two and a half or three days. This had an economic impact as will a border between Canada and the U.S. that may be more restricted in the future than it has been up until now.

We need to figure out what we can do to ensure that we have the free flow of goods and services back and forth across that border because it is a huge part of Canada's GDP. Our exports to the U.S. alone are something like 34% of GDP and total trade with the U.S. is something like 43% of GDP. Those are huge figures.

If there are restrictions at the border as a result, they will have profound impact on the Canadian economy. They could have a very large impact on our ability to maintain a balanced budget. They may also have an impact on our ability to fund some programs when we know there is a demand to put funding into defence, foreign affairs, intelligence gathering and better screening of our borders. Those are the things we should be debating today.

The World Trade Center attack has also pointed to the disconnect between what is important to the country today and what the business of parliament is today. We should not forget that as we go forward.

I hope the House leaders will see the contradiction between what is important to the public and what is going on in the House and take steps to rectify it because we are not truly doing the business the public wants us to do.

Having said all of that, I will now proceed with my speech on Bill C-15. There are some important provisions in the bill that are meritorious, deserve the attention of the House and speedy passage. A couple of them are the aspects that relate to child pornography and the luring of children.

As has been made clear by my colleagues in the Canadian Alliance and by other members in this place, we are in a position where members on the opposition benches would be quite prepared to pass those aspects of the bill immediately if we could divide the bill and deal in a more thoughtful way with the other things that are not as critical and to which everyone agrees. We want to deal with those things, but when it comes to some of the other provisions we are deeply concerned.

One of the things in Bill C-15 that troubles people in rural areas is the provisions that deal with animal cruelty.

Members of the House and the public should consider what Bill C-15 is like from the perspective of farmers or ranchers in southern Alberta. They see provisions in Bill C-15 that impede their ability to make a living at a time when they are under tremendous strain.

We have had two years of drought in my riding and no measurable precipitation this past August. It was the worst period of drought since 1888. Farmers were plowing under fields in July. There was no runoff from snowfall in the spring because there simply was no snow.

There was no water for the livestock. Herds had to be dispersed in the very first part of the spring. Usually ranchers are able to graze their cattle all summer on the pastures but that was not an option this year because they did not even have water at the beginning of the year. There was no water at all and they had to disperse their herds. If there was enough water to keep the herds going, there was not enough grass in the pasture so they had to feed their cattle with hay which becomes very expensive. There was a huge impact on the livestock industry. With respect to grains and oilseeds, again there was no moisture. Fields were plowed under. Crops were plowed under. It has been an absolute wreck when it comes to those issues.

There are several irrigation districts in my riding. Because there was so little snowpack in the mountains this year, only the irrigation districts which had a very large capacity for storing water were able to irrigate through the entire growing season. In some of the irrigation districts, land that is typically irrigated land, there was not enough water to get to some of the crops. The less valuable crops such as grains did not get irrigation water. They were coming in at 10 bushels on the acre when they would typically come in at 40, 50 or 60 bushels on the acre.

It has been a terrible year when it comes to weather conditions in southern Alberta and it has had an impact on the agricultural industry. That comes on top of bad conditions the year before.

Bill C-15 on top of all that is basically a way to kick those producers when they are down. In Bill C-15 they see all kinds of impediments to their being able to do their jobs and make a livelihood. What are the impediments?

There are provisions in Bill C-15 that would make it an offence to harm animals in any way. The problem is that the legislation itself is very unclear about what constitutes harm. For instance in animal husbandry when bull calves have to be castrated, branded or provided with an ear tag, the ranchers are concerned that would be against the law. The Canadian Cattlemen's Association and others have raised this concern.

Some people on the other side have assured us that it would not be a problem, but, in the end because the bill is not clear, it could be left to the discretion of a judge. It could be left to someone to interpret. We are asking either to make this provision much more clear by making amendments to the bill or simply to scrap this provision for now until it is sorted out.

The concern is that if it is not made clear, at some point an animal rights group or whatever will challenge it in the courts. There is the possibility that a judge could read it in such a way as to make it very difficult, if not impossible, for farmers and ranchers to treat livestock in a way that is necessary for them to raise livestock for food and that sort of thing.

Those are the sorts of concerns we have with Bill C-15. I do not understand why there could not be a clarification in the bill that would make it very clear what kinds of practices are allowed when dealing with livestock, for instance. Then we could put the minds of farmers and ranchers at ease.

I want to underline how important that is to people in my riding especially at a time when things have been so difficult for farmers and ranchers.

I want to talk about other provisions in the bill. I have already touched on them briefly, but I think it bears repeating that the official opposition and people on the opposition benches in general, object to the idea that so many different aspects of the criminal code and other acts are being dealt with in what is an omnibus bill. The problem with an omnibus bill is that very often there are some things that people in the opposition support and other things that they do not support. I cannot help but think there is a little mischief going on when it comes to the government putting so many different things in one bill. It puts us in a position where if we oppose the bill for very good reasons, the government can claim that we do not support provisions to track down people who are engaged in child pornography which of course is fiction.

We do support those provisions. That is why we have been arguing for the last number of speeches that the bill should be split. We do support provisions to go after child pornographers. We do support laws that ensure that people who try to lure children through the Internet are dealt with in a very tough manner under the criminal code. We believe in those things. However, we do not support the idea of an omnibus bill like this one which makes it difficult to separate out all the different aspects of it and to vote in a way that expresses how we feel about the bill in general. I simply had to make that point.

I will conclude where I began, which is to say that in the wake of the World Trade Center bombings, many parliamentarians are deeply concerned that this is not the appropriate time to conduct business as usual in the House of Commons. These are extraordinary times. We should be dealing with the issues that the country is concerned about, the issues that have gripped people for the last eight or nine days. If the government ever wanted to demonstrate goodwill toward reforming parliament and ensuring that the public is not cynical about how this place operates, this would be a perfect opportunity to suspend the usual business to engage in some of the discussions I mentioned at the outset that really do have a deep and profound impact on the day to day goings on of the Canadian public.

Madam Speaker, I move:

That the amendment be amended by inserting after the word “principles” the following:

Such as: child luring and child pornography over the Internet; animal cruelty; amendments to the Firearms Act; criminal harassment; home invasions; disarming, or attempting to disarm, a peace officer; reforming criminal procedure; and allegations of miscarriage of justice.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The Chair will take the amendment under advisement and get back to the House as to whether it is admissible.

[Michel Bellehumeur, Bloc, Berthier—Montcalm, QC]

Madam Speaker, I listened carefully to the remarks of the previous speaker. Indeed, the first part of it concerned the conduct of the Liberal government. We have to acknowledge that the Canadian Alliance member was right.

We do have a strange government. It says one thing and does another. It tells the people one thing but, in practice, does something else. We could give many examples of this.

I will give an example similar to the one the member gave, and it concerns organized crime. This is a very important matter. Everyone has debated it here in the House. We quickly passed the bill in June in order to implement it as quickly as possible. Bill C-24 is before the other House as is another very important bill, Bill C-7, the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

The Liberal government says that public safety is important and that it wants to do its utmost to, in addition to having anti-gang legislation, amend the anti-gang legislation, which has not yet been passed in the Senate, and add amendments in order to fight terrorism. Well, we might have thought the government would instruct the other House to have Bill C-24 examined as quickly as possible in order to be put into effect. Well no, it did not.

The Liberal government instructed the Senate not to pass as quickly as possible the anti-gang legislation, the legislation to fight organized crime, not to make amendments to cover terrorism, as the Prime Minister has been saying since the start of the conflict; no, the government instructed the other House to pass Bill C-7. Declaring war against young offenders will certainly settle the affairs of the world. This is an example of the sort of speech the government makes here for public ears. But, the reality of the matter is something else again.

The Canadian Alliance member is right: we should be discussing something other than a bill as complicated and controversial as Bill C-15. If hon. members took a good look at this legislation, they would agree that it is inconsistent. We cannot deal with and put on the same footing—after all, we are amending the criminal code—the protection of children, the vulnerability of childhood, and the protection of animals. This does not make any sense.

We could pass very quickly all the provisions that have to do with the protection of children, such as Internet games and issues. We could also adopt very quickly provisions dealing with penalties as they relate to harassment. We could adopt them today if the government was willing to co-operate by simply splitting the bill.

There are controversial clauses, such as those on animal cruelty. I can understand the hon. member from western Canada whose constituents are very concerned with this bill, because back home in Quebec, we also have farmers, people who work with animals, hunters, fishers, research laboratories and universities that are concerned. Instead of discussing a bill that no one wants or that is largely controversial, we could have talked about the preparation of the strikes that the United States are about to make. We could have talked about how to help small and medium size businesses, companies, and how to improve our border services. We could have talked about the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, about public safety. But no, we are not talking about these issues.

Could the Canadian Alliance member tell us which parts of the bill we could quickly adopt because they are not being challenged by his party, and could he point out those that are more controversial and require a more indepth review? Could we split this bill in two?

We could adopt one part quickly and take more time to properly review the other part.

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, I thank my colleague for his fine speech and the question at the end of it. The hon. member has asked me a very specific question. I can tell him that there are a number of aspects of the bill that the Canadian Alliance agrees with.

We agree with stiff penalties for luring children through the Internet. We would pass that quickly. We agree with provisions against child pornography. We would pass that quickly. We agree with provisions that provide a penalty for trying to disarm a peace officer. We would pass that quickly. Those are things we agree with. We have no problem with them.

More to some of the things that my friend said in his discourse, the thing that concerns me most of all about what is happening in this place today is its lack of relevance to where the public is at today. The public is gripped by what the future holds for it as a result of the World Trade Center bombings and the attack on the Pentagon. The Canadian public wants to know what the implications are for it.

Why are we not debating those things in the House of Commons? We are here to do the people's business. I can state that today Bill C-15 is not the people's business. They want these other issues addressed.

I would urge the Prime Minister and the House leader from the government side to remember that they are here and have an obligation to serve the public. They are not doing that when we are debating bills that to a large degree are simply not relevant in the context of what has happened in the United States in the last nine days.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Madam Speaker, I would be tempted to congratulate my colleague for his brilliant and very eloquent speech. In some ways we share his position, of course.

Does he agree with the other members of this House and I believe the hon. member for Berthier, Montcalm has been very eloquent in this connection--that, in a democracy, when we have been elected as MPs to represent a community, when people have spoken through the ballot box, and we are delegated to represent our fellow citizens here in this House and to speak for them, there ought to be an inalienable principle governing each vote and each debate in this House, namely to be very clear what we are voting on?

Is it not absolutely detestable that the government is making use of an insidious practice, one that is just within the limits of honesty, to have a catch-all bill, an omnibus bill that goes all the way from soup to nuts? Is it not deplorable that the Minister of Justice is acting in such a reprehensible manner and with such unclear ideas?

[Monte Solberg, Canadian Alliance, Medicine Hat, AB]

Madam Speaker, my friend is absolutely correct.

One of the things that I think most turns off Canadians is the government using its ability to set the legislative agenda to play political games. There is no question that this is what it has done for Bill C-15, knowing that it can count on the public's lack of understanding of how complicated the bill is to try to trap opposition members. It is completely disingenuous.

What a responsible government would do when it comes to bills like Bill C-15 is divide them. That is clearly what opposition members have been asking for.

The government has claimed in the last several months that it is committed to reforming the House of Commons. It could start by ensuring that we would not have omnibus bills any more by ensuring that there is a provision to divide up these bills. We could change the standing orders to empower the Speaker to divide bills that are omnibus bills. There would be nothing wrong with doing that.

I completely agree with my friend that if the government is committed to democratic reform that is a good place to start.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The subamendment proposed by the hon. member for Medicine Hat is in order.