Debates of Sept. 24th, 2001

Customs Act

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure today to speak on Bill S-23, particularly in view of the events of September 11. Those events have changed the whole complexion upon which this debate has taken place and will take place.

All members of the House have had an opportunity to focus on many of the issues, which have been neglected for a long time, and how we can ensure the security of Canadians at home and abroad.

The bill is a balancing act. Basically, it is about ensuring that we have rapid and easy movement of goods, services and people across our border to the United States. At the same, it is about preventing individuals and elements which are of risk to Canadians from crossing the border. That is the challenge. The bill manages to address that to some extent.

Economic exchange between Canada and the United States is $500 billion a year and 108 million people cross the border every year, which is massive. However, the our current situation is less than ideal.

Before I go into that, I would be remiss if I did not make some comments on the events of September 11 and how they relate to our own internal security.

The Osama bin Ladens of this world did not materialize out of thin air. They are the sharp and extreme edge of some very real problems that, to some extent, have been neglected by the world. Foreign policy challenges have been perceived to have been dealt with in a fair and even-handed fashion.

People like Osama bin Laden and the individuals who follow him see the sword as their only recourse, and there is no room for negotiation. They decided to blow up the negotiating table rather than sit at it.

Those individuals who are filled with hatred, as is this man, who are able and willing to twist a beautiful religion like Islam into something it does not represent, have made a very clear decision and have sent a very clear message to other countries that they are not willing to engage in peaceful negotiations. Therefore, a multifactorial response, including military, international financial institutions and other levers will be required to stop these individuals.

Once we take Mr. bin Laden out, no doubt he will be replaced by others of his ilk. I believe a lot of people who follow individuals like Osama bin Laden would be able to change if our foreign policy took a bit of a different tact, along with foreign policies of other countries being changed somewhat.

There are a couple of issues that I would like to address. Western countries have to at least be perceived as fair-minded in their dealings with international problems, be it the Palestinian-Israeli question, or Saudi Arabia, or Iraq or others. It must be perceived that we are dealing with these issues and problems in a fair and even-handed fashion.

People like Osama bin Laden or those individuals who were celebrating the mass murder of innocent civilians in the United States, as we saw on television, use this type of manipulation. Curiously enough, a lot of the information they receive is through a very thick sieve or a thick prism which warped. Therefore, the information they are fed often bears absolutely no resemblance to reality.

I have heard outrageous allegations against the west, the Israelis and other Arab states from individuals who support the likes of Osama bin Laden. They are a complete and utter fabrication. If we were subjected to only those fabricated messages of hate which try to stimulate a group of people to suggest that another group will kill or threaten them, perhaps other people would respond in a similar fashion. I would hope not.

It leads us to believe and leads us to show that communication and how communication is used is essential for those individuals who try to stimulate people with that kind of hatred. Therefore within that is an opportunity for west to try to get the message out to the people in the Middle East that the west has been a friend to Muslims. The west tried to defend Muslims in the former Yugoslavia. The west tried to help the Kurds in northern Iraq who were being massacred by Saddam Hussein. The west tried to be fair minded with respect to the Palestinian-Israeli situation. Canada has supported a policy of an independent Palestinian state and an independent Israeli state living side by side in peace. Canada has not tried to take sides and we have tried to be even-handed.

Unfortunately, this message does not get out to the shantytowns of the West Bank nor does not it get out to the types of individuals who Osama bin Laden and people like him who they try to curry favour. It does not get through to some people in Afghanistan. Therein lies the challenge for us in the west.

We have to improve communication, improve connection and improve discourse. We have to have a greater number of meetings between people of different philosophical backgrounds. That is the only way we will be able to achieve a measure of peace. By doing so, we will be able to remove some of the supporters of terrorists like Osama bin Laden. It will not remove all of them. As I said before, individuals filled with that kind of hate, who are willing to completely warp and misrepresent a faith like Islam and who are willing to lie to their people are individuals beyond the pale and stage of negotiation.

With respect to our border security and our ability to deal with this problem, this will require a multifactorial approach. This will not only include foreign policy initiatives with our allies and the Americans to root out individuals such as Mr. bin Laden, to root out his support and to root out individuals who think it is acceptable to hide and coddle him, but we will also have to go after the money, which is essential in trying to cut the support to these individuals.

We can do that through the international financial institutions. The IFIs and their countries, or the international family which includes all of us, have to develop a comprehensive plan of action to find out the economic resources and sources of money that support these terrorist groups. Once we find them, we have to apprehend those funds. Cutting off the money supply is one of the most effective ways to weaken these terrorist organizations. It is absolutely essential.

My colleagues have repeatedly, in very eloquent statements, brought out what has happened to our defence forces. The Prime Minister has gone to the United States to speak with Mr. Bush, presumably to articulate some of the things that Canada can do in this initiative against terrorists. The Prime Minister knows full well that for over eight years he and his government have gutted our military to appalling degrees.

In the 1994 white paper an obligation was made by the government. It said it could put in the theatre in short order a battalion plus a brigade or 6,000 plus people. According to our defence forces, it would take a minimum of three months to introduce a brigade into the field. Furthermore, we could not sustain that brigade for six months. That is a terrible indictment, not on the men and women of our military who put their lives on the line and who are working under extraordinarily difficult circumstances, but on this government's willingness to gut our military.

With respect to our navy, at this point in time we are able to put one frigate in the theatre, in part because we have had a massive loss and attrition of skilled individuals able to man our frigates.

Furthermore, our ability to promote their strength has been severely hampered by the fact that we do not have functional Sea Kings.

Our Sea Kings are more than 30 years old. Some are dropping out of the sky. We do not have faith in functioning of those helicopters, which severely compromises the ability of our forces.

With respect to our land forces, the hardware such as tanks, et cetera necessary to back them up is severely lacking.

With respect to air, according to the 1994 white paper, Canada was supposed to put a minimum of 24 to 48 fighters into the theatre, if called upon. Can we do this? No, we cannot. Furthermore, the CF-18s we have are becoming incompatible with their American counterparts because of the high tech hardware that each of those planes requires. That means our CF-18s cannot nor will they be likely to function appropriately, other than in a token fashion, in any kind of required air effort. I wonder if the public is aware of what is going on. Our military men and women know about this because they have been labouring under it for a very long time.

We also need to look at our internal security mechanisms. CSIS is the agency we rely upon for internal security, yet over the last seven years its budget has been cut by at least 30%. Furthermore, it has had a 28% cut in manpower, which has severely compromised our internal security forces to engage in surveillance and apprehend, along with the RCMP, individuals who are a threat to our security and international security.

A gentleman who used to work as a very high level intelligence officer made the comment that Canada had become an aircraft carrier jihad for those groups that were willing to engage in terrorist activities abroad. This did not happen overnight. This happened over years because terrorist organizations knew they could easily gain access into Canada. Our ability to engage in surveillance has been severely compromised.

We understand the economic restrictions that the government is under and we support balanced cuts. However, we do not support activities and actions that compromise the security of Canadians at home and abroad. As a party, we are asking the government to put money back into the security elements that we desperately required yesterday, not two years from now. We will continually ask for and demand this.

We know that hardworking individuals in our immigration services have been frustrated for a long time. Over the last few years, my colleagues have repeatedly put out constructive suggestions to strengthen our immigration so that true refugees can come into Canada under what we feel are our humanitarian obligations. We have also asked that those individuals who are a security risk and those refugees coming here under false pretenses be prevented from entering into Canada.

Time and time again we have demonstrated that the government has failed to initiate in the House an effective immigration bill that would allow us to accomplish those objectives. We have also asked the minister of immigration why there is not proper surveillance of individuals, who claim refugee status, once they come to Canada.

Other models in the world work better than ours. Although Australia has its own difficulties, we can learn from some of its lessons which will enable us to streamline our immigration procedures.

My private member's bill would put the onus of identification, barring any extenuating circumstances, directly on the shoulders of persons claiming refugee status. They would be required to prove their identification as opposed to coming in claiming they did not have identification. Ninety per cent of individuals who are false refugees come through our borders by way of our airports. I do not know why we have not introduced that.

My colleague made a very impressive comment in her statement by members today requesting that Canadians have a photo identification card, a universal card, that would allow us to be identified from other individuals.

If our social insurance and health card numbers were on that card it would go a long way to removing fraud which costs the health care system and HRDC a lot of money. My colleague's suggestion is very intelligent and easily managed, and one that the government could do almost overnight. This would save tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars and add a very important element of security into our system.

Another purpose of the bill is to reduce the amount of illegal drugs coming into Canada. I was in Costa Rico and in Colombia earlier this year meeting with President Pastrana. What we have in front of us right now is a grand opportunity to address the trade in illegal drugs. What we can do is as follows. First, we have to recognize that the war on drugs that we have today is a failure. If we think we can go to Colombia and burn all the coca and poppy crops that are growing there and somehow believe this will solve the problem, it will not. Those crops will spread to Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela and Brazil, which is what is happening now.

If there is one thing the Taliban has done correctly over the last few months it has been to burn its poppy crops. We know the smuggling of heroin is still a serious problem in those countries but how do we deal with it? We must accept the fact that trying to address this problem at the production source will not win the so-called war against drugs.

Senator McCain of the United States made a very interesting comment when I was there. He said that we need to decrease consumption in North America. He could not be more right. If we want to address the war on drugs we must deal with it in our own house in Canada and indeed in North America. We need to decrease consumption.

Europe has some exciting models that would work very well. It has some new treatment modalities which look at addicts, not in a punitive or criminal fashion but from a medical perspective. Some of those models have a 60% one year success rate for the worst of the worst heroin addicts, which is extraordinary. It works very well.

Canada can use another avenue which has widespread support but it requires some leadership. It is the introduction of import-export permits for the precursor chemicals used in the manufacture of cocaine and heroin.

A few months ago Canada's knuckles were wrapped publicly and internationally, along with Norway and some other European countries. The reason was very interesting. We, as countries, were wilfully and knowingly selling the precursor chemicals required to produce cocaine and heroin. We know we are selling these chemicals to individuals who are using them to produce drugs but we say that it is not our problem. It is our problem and we can do something about it. We can do something through the introduction of import-export permits. In other words, a company would need an export permit for the bulk export of these precursor chemicals and the recipient would need an import permit. This would enable us to track and identify the individuals producing these drugs. Then we could stop it. If they do not have the chemicals to produce the cocaine and the heroin they cannot produce those drugs. We would cut it off at our side, which is doable.

Another thing we can do is implement something called the RICO amendments, the racketeering, investigation and criminal organization amendments, that they have in the United States. This would enable us to go after the money. It would enable us to go after those organizations that are engaging in criminal activities. It would choke off the money supply for them.

In conclusion, a number of elements need to be added to the bill in terms of strengthening our borders. We need to strengthen our defence forces, CSIS and our immigration borders. We also need to ensure that our customs officers have the ability to apprehend from a criminal perspective, not just be individuals who are trying to collect money for Revenue Canada.

[Svend Robinson, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I rise to respond with care to the comments of the hon. member for Esquimalt--Juan de Fuca. In the context of this debate on customs legislation, he made some interesting points about the impact of the tragic terrorist attacks on September 11 and how they might affect this legislation and Canada's response to it.

In looking at that response, I suggest there are two fundamental elements that we have to address. One is the issue of accountability and the other is the issue of prevention. In terms of accountability, it needs to be done within the framework of international co-operation; to hold the perpetrators of these terrorist acts to account, as well as their accomplices and those who harbour them.

In the context of prevention, there are two aspects. One is more effective surveillance combined with other security measures to enhance public safety. Certainly we have to look very seriously at that. The second is attention to the social, political and economic conditions that promote or are conducive to terrorism.

I want to be very clear. I am not speaking in any manner to suggest that this in any way defends acts of terrorism. It is precisely the opposite. If we want to understand and prevent terrorist attacks, as I heard the hon. member say, it is essential to look at what breeds the desperation, hopelessness and despair that ultimately drives people to suicide bombings or to this terrible terrorist act of September 11.

I want to take issue with the hon. member's reading of history. He referred to the question of why it is that the Muslim community, for example, in many cases, hates the United States, its foreign policy and western foreign policy. He said that they should not do that because the west has been supportive of them in a number of respects. I think we must be cautious and accurate in our review of history.

When the member talks about the west's support for the Kurds in northern Iraq, what about the Kurds in Turkey? When he talks about the tragic situation in the Middle East and the Palestinians, surely he has to recognize that the United States has been supporting the Israeli policy of illegal settlements and occupation for far too long.

Does the member not recognize that is the tragic history and not what he has recounted, as well as the impact of sanctions on the people of Iraq?

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my friend from the NDP made a number of points. However I do take issue with him that poverty is the root cause of why Mr. bin Laden and his group engage in what they do. Mr. bin Laden is worth $300 million. If Mr. bin Laden is worth $300 million, it refutes the idea of poverty being the root cause.

If he is talking about poverty as a root cause of this, then presumably they would have numerous terrorists coming out of the Congo, Liberia or Sierra Leone but that is not the case.

I agree to some extent with the hon. member when he says that there has been a perception on the part of individuals in certain parts of the Middle East of an unfair application of foreign policy. To some extent that is a failure of communication and we have not been able to get our message out to the individuals concerned.

Yes, he is right when he says that we have turned a blind eye to the illegal introduction of settlements in Palestine, which we do not support in any way, shape or form and believe we should take a much stronger stance on. However, the issue is much more complicated than that.

The Osama bin Ladens of this world are the sharp edge of some very rare problems and we cannot negotiate with those individuals. Even if the issue of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict were to be resolved, it would not be enough because Osama bin Laden hates western culture. He perceives the west as being a threat to the tenets of Islam. That is a central issue for people of his ilk.

On the issue of economics, the member should know that the leaders of the Taliban are quite affluent. While the Afghani people have been suffering beyond comprehension for years and live in grinding poverty, members of the Taliban have been lining their pockets with money from illegal trucking in the southern part of Afghanistan and through the sale of illegal drugs. That is how they are actually living. They drive around in Mercedes Benzes while their people are starving to death. I would ask the member to consider those points.

[Robert Lanctôt, Bloc, Châteauguay, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am stunned to hear nothing in the remarks of the official opposition, following the discussions and questions that we have asked of the government today, about whether or not they have a budget and about how much it was going to invest in terms of dollar figures to implement better security without hindering the steady flow of goods and services. We need to allocate more money and more staff, not simply change the technology. Yes, there is missing infrastructure, but there is also a lack of staff at customs and at the border. We would like to congratulate the customs agents, given what has happened since September 11.

However, I would like to ask the member what kind of money would be necessary to improve border security.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, my colleagues have repeatedly made representations to the government on how we can increase the funding and where it should go to make a more effective customs and revenue agency. I echo the member's comments to say that the men and women who work for customs and revenue have been trying to do a very good job under very difficult circumstances.

For years my colleagues have repeatedly put forth suggestions to the government on how to improve the system but they fell on deaf ears until this catastrophe took place. We will continue to put forth suggestions on how to improve both domestic and international security.

On the issue of defence, we have advocated a $2 billion infusion into our defence budget urgently.

The House may be interested to know that in terms of ourselves and NATO, Canada spends the second lowest amount of all NATO countries in terms of a percentage of our GDP on military. That is sad. We have known this for a long time. A year ago NATO rapped our knuckles because we were unable to meet our commitments internationally.

We have asked for a $2 billion infusion into defence. We would like to increase our percentage of GDP from about 1% today to at least 1.5% in the future. We feel that is a reasonable amount to bring our armed forces up to snuff.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Mr. Speaker, as the member knows, I am the critic for customs at the border crossings, and I have visited a number of these crossings in the last little while. Every time we get ideas or solutions from the grassroots level at the crossings for what they feel needs immediate attention, such as the situation they are now facing, they are looked upon by the government as simplistic. It is not a long term solution but there are definitely some immediate needs.

I would suggest the problem exists because it is an operation that is run by Revenue Canada, which has very little knowledge of law enforcement and the apprehension of these type of criminals. I believe these should be shifted to law enforcement bureaucracies, such as the solicitor general and justice. I wonder if the hon. member would comment on that.

[Keith Martin, Canadian Alliance, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Mr. Speaker, we have for some time lamented and made some strong comments on the fact that the judicial aspect of customs officers has been removed to make them revenue collecting officers rather than individuals who are able to uphold the law.

I know my colleague from Wild Rose has been travelling from coast to coast and meeting with the grassroots. I would encourage the government to listen to his suggestions as well as those of the grassroots, the men and women who work at customs and revenue. They have a lot of good suggestions to put forward that would improve the system. We are also not listening to the men and women in our defence forces. They also have some excellent suggestions on how we can improve our department of defence.

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Bélair)]

It is my duty, pursuant to Standing Order 38, to inform the House that the questions to be raised tonight at the time of adjournment are as follows: the hon. member for Cumberland—Colchester, Trade; the hon. member for Lanark—Carleton, Infrastructure.

[Darrel Stinson, Canadian Alliance, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I wish to state that the prayers and concerns from the people of Okanagan--Shuswap with regard to the September 11 terrorist activities in the United States have been overwhelming. Support in my office has also been overwhelming. In regard to Bill S-23 and more important the amendment, it states:

this House declines to give second reading to Bill S-23, an act to amend the Customs Act and to make related amendments to other acts, since the principle of the bill fails to specifically and adequately address national security at Canada's borders with respect to terrorist activities.

I want everyone to be assured that I do not think there is anyone in the House who is against streamlining the border if we could.

The bill was drafted before the September 11 tragedy, and I believe that it is outdated. The government's first and foremost priority in any country has to be to the safety and well-being of its law-abiding citizens. We have not achieved that goal since my coming to the House in 1993.

Countermeasures against terrorist and gang related activities were mentioned in the form of bills over the course of the past two years. However time and again the government refused to act.

It is not nice to talk about this in hindsight. If we had enacted legislation that was put before the House when the concerns were first raised, maybe we would not be trying to get the government to act on legislation that all of North America is in very dire straits to have. The 2000 CSIS report states:

Individuals with links to international terrorist groups use foreign countries, including Canada, as a base to plan terrorist acts and provide logistical support for terrorist activities in their country of origin or against other target nations. In Canada, supporters of terrorism engage in fundraising, planning operations, and transferring money and materiel overseas...Canada belongs to international institutions and bodies, participates in peacekeeping missions and hosts major international events, all of which are potential targets for terrorists. Canada remains a world leader in accepting refugees and immigrants, and will continue to receive a steady flow of people from regions of strife. Some will bring the politics of conflict with them. For Canada, politically motivated violence remains largely an extension of overseas discord. Individuals with links to international terrorist groups use Canada primarily as a base from which to orchestrate terrorist activities abroad. The intelligence services of certain foreign governments continue to be active in Canada--

Martin Collacott, a former Canadian ambassador to Asia and the Middle East, said that Americans had genuine concerns about the ease with which international terrorists entered and remained in Canada with the intent of mounting attacks on the U.S. He also said that Canada gave a low priority to identifying, tracking and removing suspected terrorists.

Travel and commerce across the U.S.-Canada border is important to both countries. There is no doubt about that. No one wants to disrupt these flows, yet a crackdown on terrorists will be meaningless without a serious push in Canada toward greater security regarding immigrants and refugees.

Canada shares vulnerability to terrorist infiltration. All open societies pay a price for tolerance and civil liberties. According to John Thompson, director of the Toronto Mackenzie Institute specializing in organized crime and political instability, the thing that makes Canada different from the British, French and Americans is that we tend to be more politically immature. We have a political culture that does not go to war. We have had a view since the 1930s that we are in a fireproof house. We are supposed to be the international boy scouts who are trusted by all other countries.

He went on to say that it has coloured Canadian attitudes toward security. He noted that until this week the largest terrorist strike was the downing of the Air India jet in 1985 where more than 330 people were killed. He goes on to say that the fundamentalists who drove a truckful of explosives over the Washington border in 1990 was one such arrival.

Mr. Ressam arrived in Canada and was caught with a fake French passport. He claimed refugee status and then renounced his claim. He had a history of associations with terrorists and yet the government did nothing about deporting him.

Mr. Collacott said the Ressam case brought out the fact that terrorist suspects could enter the country easily and that there were problems that were still not removed.

Do our brothers in the states have concerns about what is going on in Canada? After reading these CSIS reports they certainly do. Not only the Americans have concerns but people in Canada have the same concerns. They want to know what the government will do to address the problems. It has done nothing. Instead it has decided to study the issue.

Terrorists do not study the issue; they act. While we are in the House I guarantee that they are already making plans. The British foreign secretary said:

We come together and we work out how they face that choice, but one thing is very, very clear. As soon as we know, or have a very good idea as to who is responsible for this action, those states which harbour terrorist activity, in the words of the United Nations Security Council Resolution, have to be held to account and cannot any longer have the kind of easy ride they have had in the past.

I could not agree more. If any country allows terrorist organizations to raise funds to be taken out or used within that country and use funds to make bombs and killing devices, that country has to be held accountable.

We have overwhelming evidence, not only from CSIS but from other reports that the government knows, that there are over 50 terrorist organizations actively working in Canada and yet nothing is being done.

I question the wisdom of the government when last Tuesday it voted against a motion brought before the House by the official opposition. It stated:

That this House call upon the government to introduce anti-terrorism legislation similar in principle to the United Kingdom's Terrorism Act, 2000, and that such legislation provide for:

the naming of all known international terrorist organizations operating in Canada;

a complete ban on fundraising activities in support of terrorism, and provisions for the seizure of assets belonging to terrorists or terrorist organizations;

the immediate ratification of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism;

the creation of specific crimes for engaging in terrorist training activities in Canada or inciting terrorist acts from Canada;

the prompt extradition of foreign nationals charged with acts of terrorism, even if the charges are capital offences; and

the detention and deportation to their country of origin of any people illegally in Canada or failed refugee claimants who have been linked to terrorist organizations.

I have to question, if the government's first and foremost priority is to the safety and well-being of its law-abiding citizens, why it voted against the motion. I do not understand it.

I see I am out of time, although I have a lot more information I would like to share with the House.

[Art Hanger, Canadian Alliance, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the debate on Bill S-23 has certainly been very revealing in one sense. I know a lot of it has focused on the amendment before us which would include the issue of terrorism in the bill that would streamline the movement of people and goods across the border.

As I sat and listened to the comments of various members in the House it became very noticeable that they are all free traders. They want to see the movement of goods and services north and south in this country.

The NAFTA , struck by governments previous to one that sits in the House today, has become so essential to our economy, to our well-being, to who we are not only as Canadians but as people who share the North American continent, that we do not want to see any hindrance to the flow of goods and services within the North American continent.

That is very important to note because with that there will be a will to make sure that does not happen, that goods, services and people will not be hindered in their movement north and south.

In retrospect I recall campaign promises in the past to bury such things as NAFTA and any free trade rules or agreements. The reality is that now we have such agreements which are so essential to our well-being and we want to protect them.

I have certainly brought forward the one question that has been asked not just by myself but by other members of the House. How can we have streamlined, legitimate, cross-border trade and travel almost unhindered and still deal with the issue that has been brought before us by the amendment from this side of the House concerning the security of our combined countries?

I will repeat again the words of Director Ward Elcock who in 1998 called Canada one of the world's pre-eminent terrorist targets. He elaborated by saying that with perhaps the singular exception of the United States there are more international terrorist groups active here than in any other country in the world.

That is quite a statement to make. Apart from the United States, we have more terrorist groups and cells working here than in any other country in the world.

If he were the only one who said that, maybe we could say the statement was taken out of context or that it was slightly exaggerated. However he was not the only one who said it.

In 1999 after a special Senate committee on security and intelligence reviewed the issue of terrorist groups, the CSIS chief of strategic planning, David Harris, referred to Canada as a big jihad aircraft carrier for launching strikes against the United States. We had two individuals saying that very same thing in slightly different words.

I can remember coming into the House for the first time in 1994 and listening to the then solicitor general who now sits in the House as Deputy Prime Minister.

He said at that time that serious concerns had been passed on to him by CSIS about the instability which could result from groups that were actively involved in this country, that if they were to rise up they could destabilize the country. That is quite a broad statement to make, that they could actually destabilize the country.

Here is the issue which is before the government and every member of the House. We want the movement of goods and services to flow along so that our economies and our businesses do well. At the same time we want to provide security that will please not only our neighbours, because they are the ones that can take action against the movement of goods and services, but we also have to consider and please the citizens of our country. That is the issue at hand here on everything we say and do from this point forward. On every piece of legislation, whether it is through Revenue Canada and customs, whether it is through transport or even our security agencies, that is the question that will have to be answered.

How can we do it? Some time ago, prior to the Reform Party coming into parliament, a previous government tried to address that issue. Just before that party was voted out of power, it did come forward with a similar kind of concern and tried to address it as a government. Unfortunately those efforts were all cast aside when the Liberal government took over in 1993.

In my opinion there is only one way to address the issue of having a security network set up that would please the citizens of Canada and our American counterparts and also achieve the goal of almost unhindered cross-border trade. Until that issue is addressed, I do not think we will see unhindered movement of people and trade.

We must harmonize our policies with the United States and consider it in the same way that the NATO alliance works, that a strike against any one member of the alliance is a strike against all members; a strike against any one is a strike against all. In other words we should have a policy that is in harmony with our neighbours to the south. If they are concerned about security in a certain way, we should be just as concerned about it. We must harmonize our policies so that we have a security network. Two years ago at a united alternative meeting I suggested that we have a security network that falls under one ministry. A new ministry should be created that will look after the security network. I can give ample reasons for us to do that.

One thing I have discovered through the nine years I have been in parliament and being part of the different committees that examined the groups, agencies and enforcement areas is that they are all working independently of one another. Often information is not being shared. Their enforcement areas are all treated independently by the government.

Some groups should be bolstered up and lifted and resourced properly. Unfortunately the government takes the opposite point of view and they fall flat and later are disbanded or quietly removed from the scene. That is one area we should work on as a government, not only the government side, but the opposition side as well.

We should start planning now and work toward having one ministry that is in charge of our national security and even further, our North American security network.

[David Anderson, Canadian Alliance, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Madam Speaker, we are here today to address Bill S-23. This is a bill to facilitate trade between the United States and Canada. I will spend a few minutes talking about trade in agriculture since that is one of the areas I have an interest in.

Trade in agriculture, exports and imports between the United States and Canada, runs into the billions of dollars. For example, we export billions of dollars per year in grain and oilseed foodstuffs alone. We import almost $300 million in bulk grain alone from the United States. We export $1.3 billion worth of livestock and import more than $150 million in just live animals from the United States. We export more than $600 million worth of pork products and import $100 million.

In the past we have had conflicts on our border regarding agricultural issues and products. The cattle industry has been affected a couple of times by R-CALF, an organization in the United States that has come forward to try to challenge the import and export of animals to the United States. Durum wheat has been challenged often by senators along the border states, particularly along the border of North Dakota and Manitoba. We see recurring problems with softwood lumber across Canada.

For those of us who live on this side of the border, it is necessary for the border to be open. Not only is it necessary for us but for the people of the United States as well, because we are their biggest trading partner taking a full 25% of their exports.

The border serves several functions. My riding is located right along the Montana border and it has always been an area of interest to the locals. Many of the people who have settled in our area came from Minnesota. They came from Scandinavian countries, moved through Minnesota, came up through Montana and settled right along the border. The early pioneers were used to going back and forth across that border.

My grandfather talked about unloading a three wheel tractor in Chinook, Montana and trying to bring it across the prairie. As they drove it north they tipped it twice and had to go to one of their U.S. neighbours to get a horse to pull the tractor back onto its wheels. Building supplies were often shipped into small Montana towns such as Turner, Harlem, Chinook and then the products were brought up to Canada. The border was also an interesting place to be during the prohibition era. There were a lot of products brought back and forth that often were not approved by customs.

We have friends on both sides of the border. When I was growing up I would travel to the United States regularly. The border was open. Often it seemed that we had more connections north and south than we did east and west. Lately traffic to the U.S. from our area has been curtailed since our dollar has fallen to the level it has. Many of the people in our area have quit spending as much money as they used to in the United States.

We also have programs in our area such as Canpass. We have been talking about setting up electronic crossings. Those programs I understand are now under review.

We need to have trade with our biggest trading partner. Because of terrorism and the brutal treatment of innocent people which has taken place, the border has changed. It has changed the ability of people and goods to move back and forth across the border.

I want to spend a couple of minutes talking about the type of border crossings. I ask members present, what would it be like to be a customs agent at an isolated border crossing in the conditions that we have now? What would it be like for a customs agent to be overseen by an agency that has a lack of direction toward its employees?

I am not sure if members are aware, but it took two days for the agency to let the local customs agents know that they were supposed to fly the flags at half-mast, but they had already done it. They were given directions to search all vehicles but were given no directions about what they were searching for.

As we heard earlier today, employees have also been told that they should not be speaking to MPs, particularly opposition MPs. What would it be like to be an employee in an isolated area and feel there is no recourse to bring out concerns?

What would it be like to work in an isolated area and know there is a lack of protection? The RCMP in many of these areas are miles and miles away. They can be from 15 to 70 miles away from a border crossing.

In our area alone, the RCMP officers themselves have to cover huge areas. There is one officer on duty and that is it for an area that covers approximately 2,000 to 2,500 square miles. The officer's job is to cover that area as well as the border crossings. I do not think it is realistic to expect that person to do that job.

We also have to ask what it would be like to be at an isolated crossing with improper training and equipment. I understand at the larger crossings agents are being trained in the use of batons and pepper spray but that training will not be given to the agents at the smaller crossings. Where else would it be needed? At the large crossings there are a dozen agents on duty and there are people to back them up. At the small crossings this protection is required.

A question that also arises is whether or not agents should have sidearms. We have heard today that we need to take this agency out of the revenue collection business. It is not just a revenue collecting group. This group is expected to provide law enforcement. These people need to have protection. On the American side of the border there are agents with sidearms, agents with fully automatic weapons, agents with bulletproof vests on the backs of which the word “police” is spelled out in six-inch letters. On our side, the agents finally do have bulletproof vests but there is nothing to indicate that people should stop or respect them.

We have actually been accused of trying to make political points on this, but it is important. For almost 10 years, first the Reform Party and then the Alliance party tried to talk to the government about the need for reform of Canada's criminal justice system, the immigration system and the border crossing system. The government has chosen not to listen and in some ways those chickens are now coming home to roost.

Another problem is the lack of proper allocation of funding. The government is only too willing to overtax people and to take 50% of their income. It tries to restrict businesses through its taxation policies. It is committed to regional economic development programs that often do nothing but waste money. There are entrenched attitudes in the bureaucracy. There is an improper allocation of resources and because of that people who are on the ground cannot do an adequate job.

Looking at the structure of a pyramid, it works far better if the base of the pyramid is sitting on the ground. Looking at a business model, businesses want to have most of their people on the ground doing the work and fewer people involved in the decision making and those kinds of things. The bureaucracy at Canada customs seems to be almost the opposite. The people at the bottom are trying to do their jobs, to provide law enforcement and collect revenue. They are being run by bureaucrats and are given their instructions from above and the instructions often have very little to do with their jobs.

Canada has a porous border and we need to do something about it. Government needs to show leadership in this area. Canada has a poor immigration set-up. We need to do something to get those people who consistently break our laws and who think they can stay in Canada out of our country so they are not a danger to our citizens.

In conclusion, we need trade. It is obvious to all of us that we need to have trade. We also need a reasonably secure border. The time for playing around, studying and consulting is over. The government has been in power long enough that it should be able to bring in policy that is effective. We need to deal with the lack of direction, protection and proper allocation. We have the time and the opportunity now. Let us not throw that away.

[Kevin Sorenson, Canadian Alliance, Crowfoot, AB]

Madam Speaker, I rise today to partake in this debate on Bill S-23, an act to amend the Customs Act and to make related amendments to other acts.

The bill proposes to streamline legitimate cross border trade and travel through electronic monitoring, self-assessment, advance information and pre-approval.

As already pointed out today, the official opposition hesitantly supports Bill S-23 but does so reluctantly given the government's poor record in maintaining the integrity of our borders, particularly the long, mostly unprotected border we share with our neighbours to the south.

Canada is a trade dependent country and as such the economic viability and stability of manufacturing companies operating within Canada rely on the ease with which goods flow between Canada and the United States. A threat to the openness we enjoy along the Canada-U.S. border is a threat to the billions of dollars of trade and the tens of thousands of jobs we appreciate and have here in Canada. Over 87% of our trade is done with our neighbours to the south, the United States.

This weekend the governor of the Bank of Canada warned that the fallout from terrorist attacks on the United States may push our weakened economy into a recession. David Dodge warned the government against trying to bail out the economy with additional spending or being foolhardy and going back to deficit financing, which Minister of Finance Paul Martin has indicated he may have to do.

Mr. Dodge stated:

--economic growth in the third quarter will likely be close to zero or slightly negative, and we will continue to feel the adverse effects into the fourth quarter.

Furthermore, the governor of the Bank of Canada said that it is certainly possible that the economy will slip into a recession, which as we all know and has been discussed here lately is commonly defined as two quarters of negative growth.

Last week the Minister of Finance said that he will not rule out a deficit if it protects Canada from terrorism. Claiming that the number one priority for the government is to protect Canadians, the finance minister says there will have to be additional spending in terms of our national security.

The official opposition fully supports increased spending for our security and for our intelligence agencies. We have pointed out numerous times in the House, and not just in the wake of the horrific events of September 11, that CSIS and the RCMP are underfunded and underresourced.

Having said that, we would counter that we do not need to be plunged back into a deficit situation if the finance minister and his government would simply prioritize spending, something that should have been done years ago. It is time to put to an end the frivolous spending on such things as fountains and golf courses and reallocate our scarce dollars to support the front lines of defence, CSIS, the RCMP and national defence. These three have been financially starved for far too long.

As stated earlier today, we cannot consider liberalized border procedures without first considering how to best restore the integrity of our borders. A company based right here in Ottawa is developing a passenger screening system that it says could have foiled last week's terrorist attacks. The system developed for the transport department by the Ottawa branch of a United States based corporation, Intrinsix Corporation, combines video cameras, reservation computers, metal detectors and x-ray machines to help identify potential terrorists. The company says that its system, which works by networking all of those elements together, would have triggered security alerts when hijackers boarded four flights in the United States last week.

In last week's Ottawa Citizen , Claude Clouthier, manager of the Intrinsix Ottawa office, said that the strength of the airport security data fusion system is that it displays all the information on one computer screen. Mr. Clouthier reported to the Ottawa Citizen that Transport Canada was funding development of the system through an agreement with the United States to create new anti-terrorism technology but that the project had apparently been stalled over cost concerns. “Cost is always the issue, because it is a very complex problem”, said Mr. Clouthier.

We would agree with Mr. Clouthier. When we deal with national security or when we deal with CSIS and RCMP, funding and resourcing is a problem with the government.

Furthermore, the Intrinsix manager said that he believes Transport Canada has a renewed interest in the project since the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and at the Pentagon on September 11. Intrinsix received a $140,000 contract in February 1999 to develop a working prototype of the system. The Intrinsix preliminary report on the system recommends that Transport Canada install video surveillance cameras at check-in counters and boarding gates. The report noted that the lack of integration of security machines makes it difficult to track a passenger's bags through an airport without sending a security guard to make a physical check.

It is absolutely appalling that a system such as this one developed by this Ottawa based company has not been used in Canadian airports and that only now, after the attack on America, has our government decided that perhaps it should bring forward some precautionary measures.

The Liberal government's failure to continue funding for such systems is indicative of its relaxed attitude toward security in Canada. Unfortunately we have a government that is reactive, not proactive, regarding the security and the safety of our citizens. It is for this reason that we are reluctant to support a liberalization of our border controls. We are also reluctant to entertain loosening border controls due to the large volume of illegal migrants currently crossing our border so freely, illegals who may ultimately provide a stream of terrorists gaining entry into the United States by circumventing Canadian and United States border controls since we have no exit controls.

No exit controls, as I pointed out in April of this year, mean that it is impossible to calculate how many people remain in Canada illegally, how many have slipped into the United States or how many have returned to their countries of origin or have gone elsewhere.

As of October 23, 1998, there were 6,110 warrants for removal issued against persons deemed to have abandoned or withdrawn their refugee claims. Of these, 640 warrants were executed and the persons were removed from Canada; 240 warrants were cancelled, that is, they were no longer deemed refugees so they were cancelled; and there was no action taken on the remaining 5,272.

Six thousand, one hundred and ten applications and five thousand, two hundred and seventy-two warrants still sit in a dusty, dingy corner somewhere because we do not have the resourcing to deal with those warrants, or the backbone. Quite obviously this is a very serious problem that must immediately be rectified to restore our border integrity.

More than nine million commercial shipments enter Canada each year, 75% at land border ports and the rest at international airports, marine ports, postal facilities and bonded warehouses. Approximately one million marine containers enter Canadian ports annually and another 200,000 enter by truck or rail after being off-loaded in United States marine ports.

I would like to point out that most illicit drugs arrive in Canada by aircraft, marine container and truck. At least 100 tonnes of hashish, 15 to 24 tonnes of cocaine and 4 tonnes of liquid hashish are smuggled into Canada each year.

I do not think I need to point out that drugs are synonymous with organized crime. Drugs and organized crime are very relevant when we refer to the fundraising of terrorist organizations.

An Ottawa Citizen article dated March 3, 1999, under the title “RCMP battles to halt flow of Colombian drugs”, states that Canada is particularly vulnerable to drug trafficking, the principal source of revenue for most crime groups. According to the drug analysis section of the RCMP, smugglers are attracted to Canada because of the low risk of arrest due to limited police resources that “have stymied investigations”:

Smugglers are attracted by the sprawling, largely unmonitored Canadian coastline, the low risk of arrest and the relatively light penalties--

I therefore reiterate that we support measures aimed at liberalizing trade but we do so only as we ensure that all necessary measures are in place to effectively control organizations and terrorists and those who support them.

[Gurmant Grewal, Canadian Alliance, Surrey Central, BC]

Madam Speaker, on behalf of the citizens of Surrey Central I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill S-23, an act to amend the Customs Act and to make related amendments to other acts.

The people of Surrey Central live in very close proximity to the U.S. border and they travel to the U.S. Many transport merchandise in trucks while others go for pleasure. Bill S-23 has a direct impact on their businesses as well as on their lifestyle.

Over 85% of our GDP comes from exports to the U.S. and our bilateral trade is over one and a quarter billion dollars per day. More than 108 million people cross the border between our two countries. Security is of paramount importance due to the situation that unfolded on September 11.

As a past member of the subcommittee on organized crime I know the kind of stuff which is not only scary but also very challenging. At one time only four RCMP officers patrolled the entire B.C. border with the U.S. Bill S-23 becomes particularly important but nothing has changed in Bill S-23 since September 11.

From time to time members of the Canadian Alliance pointed out the deficiencies in government policies. One would think that with this momentous event the government would wake up. It only shows that the weak Liberal government does not have the political will to be proactive and improve the border security in the best interest of the people of Canada as well as of America.

I am not suggesting a knee-jerk reaction. However the overall approach of the government has been a culture of neglect. There has been neglect on the budget, health care, defence, agriculture, foreign policy, safety and security, anti-terrorism legislation, et cetera.

Bill S-23 does not take into account the events of September 11 which have fundamentally changed the landscape of our customs policy and border security. We need legislation that recognizes that fact. Instead of recognizing that and amending the bill, the government pushes ahead as if nothing happened. This approach will not do.

The hon. member for Edmonton--Strathcona proposed an amendment to the bill that would block second reading. Bill S-23 amends the Customs Act and other acts to allow for preapproval of people and goods for low risk Canada-U.S. travellers. The bill speeds up the flow of low risk traffic across the border. It focuses the limited resources of the CCRA on traffic of higher or unknown risk. How would the government make that distinction?

Another problem with the bill is that it focuses on risk management. In the case of CSIS, risk management was just a code word for making do with less, of policing on a shoestring budget, and thus risking the lives of Canadians in the process. Let us call it what it is.

There are more problems however. I express serious doubts about the intent of the bill. It highlights the don't worry, be happy approach of the government. Furthermore, if the government refuses to support the amendment, it would be a blatant reminder of the arrogance of the government.

We face a unique problem in Canada. If we fail our brother and pass a bill flawed in its intent, we risk the economic benefits the bill is supposed to protect. Bill S-23 as it stands now would result in a backlash against Canada. Our exports could be affected with negative repercussions that could jeopardize the goodwill between our two nations.

Ambassador Cellucci of the United States has said that Canada and the U.S. need to harmonize their immigration policies. Legislation coming out of the House needs to reflect that intent. The U.S., in answer to our reluctance to deal with the security issue, may apply the dreaded section 110 of its immigration laws, resulting in long lineups at the border and further problems for Canadians, low risk or otherwise, trying to enter the U.S. Section 110 would create chaos at the border if implemented.

The security issue will be dealt with, if not on our terms then on American terms. Either we deal with it here or the U.S. congress will do it for us, and we should not blame it for that.

Free trade was supposed to bring the best of both worlds by being free and fair. It was supposed to bring access to more goods and services as well as increased economic integration with our friends to the south, but it will be threatened if we fail to balance it against the safety of Canadians and Americans.

Economic benefits are vital but we must not lose sight of our long term relations and security interests. We have an opportunity before us today to turn the clock back in some small way to ensure that the laws we implement deal with today's realities which have changed our world dramatically. Any failure to do so would bring us blame for generations to come.

The chief target for terrorist acts lives next door to us. Canada could be a target one day. The Americans are our major trading partners and the source of most foreign direct investment in Canada as well as the biggest destination of investment by Canadians.

The weak and arrogant Liberal government that lacks vision is clueless. This means that Canadians would pay a terrible price of job losses, border delays, plant closures and forgone economic activity until Ottawa cleans up its act. Now is the time to do that job.

[Gary Lunn, Canadian Alliance, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to speak to Bill S-23 on behalf of my constituents of Saanich--Gulf Islands. The bill is a very important one considering the events of September 11. When the bill was first introduced it was brought in so we could streamline legitimate people travelling across our border between Canada and the United States and allow pre-approval mechanisms for the transfer of goods between Canada and the United States.

Today $500 billion of trade travels across our border each year. It is important for the economies of both countries that this continues to happen in a very timely manner. There is merit to the bill. However, as we have witnessed in the last few weeks, it is also important to ensure that the perimeter of our two countries is absolutely secure.

The bill is designed to help streamline this process so that energies can be funnelled on the people of concern. We have an opportunity to strengthen the bill. It should go back for more amendments so that the technologies available to us today can have a much greater control of what is actually moving across our border, both in people and commodities. This would allow for the movement of legitimate travellers but with a much higher security level.

We should be looking at strengthening our security approaches. Immigration policies in this country must be generous but they must be very stringent as well. When we screen people who are coming into our country we should ensure the safety of all Canadians and all landed immigrants who come before them.

There is a serious problem not just in our country but in many of our allied countries such as Great Britain, France and the United States. They are not immune and neither are we. We have faced horrific events in the last few weeks. I am sure every member in the House recognizes that there are terrorists in Canada as well as our allied countries who want to commit these horrific acts.

It is time to look at a bill like this one that wants to streamline the process and make it very rigorous so that the screening process applies to all people going across the border.

That does not mean we have to slow it down. With technologies and preapproved processors there are all kinds of opportunities. However we want to make sure that we know who is going across our border in both directions, that we can instantly track suspected people, people with criminal records and a history of concern, people who have tried to come into our country with any type of false passport or any type of irregularity. All that information would flash up immediately.

The same thing would apply to people who move commodities across our borders. If there were any irregularities or dealings that were of concern they would be flashed immediately. The men and women of the CCRA who are manning our borders should be given the proper tools to do their job.

I would argue that the standards are not there and it is time to change that now. I am not criticizing our own country but our allied countries as well who are facing this very serious problem. On September 11 these people took control of four planes and there were others that tried to do so as well. It is very clear that we should be investing in a North American perimeter and that we make provisions against something this well organized that can slip through the system so easily.

We have a bill which was brought before the Senate long before September 11. Its intent was to streamline and make things go smoother, to arguably pre-approve people and use the technologies available. However, we have an opportunity now to send it back and say that we have a serious problem in this country. We should be sitting down with our American friends discussing how we combat this problem on a North American-wide system and how we bring in systems where all the data is exchanged.

I would argue that needs to be a priority. It is my understanding that the government has not done this. I have some concerns with that. We should be looking at that right now and bringing these screening measures into place.

From a purely economic standpoint, there is the whole question of security, which is paramount to the safety of our families, our homes, our ridings and the safety of Canadians. That is absolutely reason enough.

It is also important, when we have trade of $500 billion a year between Canada and the United States or half a trillion dollars, that we have systems in place to allow trade to move through. Obviously the economies depend on some of these shipments. We cannot have a bottleneck system at our borders. There have to be systems in place to move these goods freely but in a very safe manner ensuring that the information is there and there is pre-approval.

We have an opportunity to revisit this and bring in systems that will absolutely ensure our families at home in our ridings can feel very safe. We need to become very aggressive about this, so do our allies. It is hoped that we can work together.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The question is on the amendment. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

All those in favour of the amendment will please say yea.

[Some hon. members]

Yea.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

All those opposed will please say nay.

[Some hon. members]

Nay.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

In my opinion, the nays have it.

And more than five members having risen:

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Call in the members.

And the bells having rung: