House of Commons Hansard #87 of the 37th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament's site.) The word of the day was farmers.

Topics

International Boundary Waters Treaty ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

The House resumed from May 18 consideration of the motion that Bill C-27, an act respecting the long-term management of nuclear fuel waste, be read the second time and referred to a committee.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, the NDP is quite pleased to see legislation come forward on this issue, not this legislation in particular but at least some legislation.

If there is any area of the environment that speaks to the necessity of having the precautionary principle applied before an industry such as the nuclear industry is allowed to develop, this is it. It is necessary when one is considering the legislation to look at a bit of the history. As we all know the nuclear industry was an offshoot of the development of nuclear weapons flowing from research and work done during the second world war. It began to be used for non-war purposes subsequent to the second world war. We got our first small nuclear reactors in the 1950s and 1960s and in the process of doing that began to identify even back then the very serious problem of the byproduct, nuclear waste.

However identifying the level of seriousness seems to have come to the attention of governments only after the huge expansion that occurred in the 1970s, particularly in Canada with the Candu reactors. At that point there was a recognition that we would have to do something about nuclear waste.

Because we allowed the continuous development of this industry, what did not happen at that point was an economic assessment of the real cost of nuclear power. In fact, we have not even done that up to this point. That is one of the problems with the bill. However, we did allow the expansion and there was very substantial expansion through the 1970s.

At the end of the 1970s the atomic energy commission of Canada was prompted to begin to seriously look at what it would do with all the nuclear waste from the nuclear plants. Over a period of extensive research and time, it came up with a proposal which was, in simple, man on the street terms, to dump it. It put some fancy words around it and talked about deep rock burial. That is the phraseology. In essence, they wanted to dump it in the Canadian Shield.

As this proposal came forward, as I think any sensible person could imagine it got a less than overwhelming response from local communities that might have been the site of this dump. Because the reaction was so strong from the Canadian citizenry, a commission was appointed, chaired by Blair Seaborn, and it became generally known as the Seaborn commission. The commission studied this over an extensive period of time, almost 10 years, and reported in 1997 with a very damning summary of the AECL proposal.

The government, in response to that, to a great extent rejected the commission but pretends now in the legislation to allow for the implementation, or at least the potential implementation, of the recommendations from that commission.

To some significant degree the bill is a fraud if its intent is in fact to implement the Seaborn commission recommendations because it does not do that. What it does do is allow the industry to make all of the decisions, to do that in a relatively short period of time given the level of intense research required and probably using a methodology that will be relatively inexpensive for the industry but totally unsatisfying for the Canadian public.

As I said when I began my remarks we welcome the legislation coming forward because this issue has to be addressed by the House. We will be supporting the bill on second reading to have it passed on for committee review. The work in that committee hopefully will get us to a result by way of significant amendments that in fact would make the treatment of nuclear waste something in which Canada can be a leader in the world, as opposed to what we see in the bill now.

I want to deal with a few of the specifics in the bill that we will be looking at and attempting to alter at committee stage. The first, which I have already made reference to, is the composition of the decision making body. The bill provides for the establishment of a waste management organization. We welcome that. It was part of the Seaborn recommendations that a body of that nature be established. What we are opposed to and will attempt to get changed is the composition of the panel that will form that commission, because as it stands now the only people who would be on it are from the industry. Those people who need regulation would be doing the regulating.

The Seaborn commission recommended that there be experts on that panel, that it involve extensive public consultation, that it be at arm's length and independent from the utilities that provide the services and the product, from the other vested interests or offshoots of those utilities, and from government itself, in other words, that it be completely independent. We will be looking for those recommendations to be incorporated in the bill.

There is a second group that is established under the bill, advisory panels and committees. Again, that was recommended by the Seaborn commission. These would be more broadly based and somewhat localized to the areas where there are current nuclear facilities. The bill would restrict participants to being from just that area. In effect the local community would be given a chance to sit on these committees but would not be given any resources either in the form of personnel to act as secretaries or money for things like travel or hiring experts. The bill does not provide for any of this. Again, the Seaborn commission recommended all of that. In addition, any people from the outside who may be able on a volunteer basis to provide expertise would not be allowed to sit on the committees. We will be looking for some significant changes in that structure.

It is important to note that after all its research, study and consultation, one of the Seaborn commission's major conclusions was that even though deep rock burial may be technically feasible, not one community in Canada would risk accepting the nuclear waste.

The credibility of both the waste management organization and the advisory councils is extremely important. Ultimately, the only way nuclear waste will be adequately dealt with and dealt with to the satisfaction of the Canadian public, both generally and specifically in some of these communities, is for it to have absolute credibility. Bill C-27 goes in the opposite direction.

I want to spend a few moments on the funding for nuclear waste disposal. I had the opportunity to spend some time at the nuclear site in Darlington, Ontario, which has currently four reactors operating and four more that are idle. I spent the better part of a day looking at the system. The current system is simply that it is stored, first in water and then it is moved into containers, very high tech in both cases, but obviously short term in that it does not deal with the waste itself. It is strictly storage. That is the only methodology we have at this point.

The financing that is being recommended in the bill, I believe, and it is where there is some shortfall, is based on the original AECL proposal of deep rock burial. I am not entirely convinced that the proposed funding will even be sufficient to do that because of what I expect will be very strong opposition from whatever community in which the site may end up, if that ever proceeds.

However, I am convinced that it is clearly not enough money if we continue short term storage. The reason for that is that this waste has no end in terms of its lifespan. The best scientific minds in this field cannot tell us what the life expectancy is of this material.

We may be storing nuclear waste above ground or in limited, below ground facilities for centuries and millenniums, and that has not been costed into the bill at all. This is very clear from the dollars. We are not talking about peanuts. We are talking about billions and billions of dollars that are being proposed but the amount will be nowhere near adequate for long term storage. That is a matter that has to be looked at very closely.

If the government were serious about paying attention to the work done by the Seaborn commission, it would do a number of things in this legislation as opposed to the smokescreen it is creating here. If it set out the legislation along the lines of what the commission recommended, we could have a real independent agency, one that would be arm's length from the nuclear industry and from the government.

That independent agency would be entitled and authorized to look at the various options. This is another real flaw in the legislation. It really only provides for two options: the storage that is going on now, short term, or the deep rock burial.

There are other potential options. Extensive research has been going on over what is called a transmutation of the waste. It is believed there are ways of reprocessing it. This has not been done yet, I would hasten to add, but it is believed that we may be able to run the waste back through the system. At this point it would be very dangerous to do that but if it can be developed, it may reduce the volume of waste quite significantly and, subsequently, storage capacity requirements would be dramatically reduced.

The other research that has been going on has to do with using the waste as fuel repeatedly and eventually completely eliminating the issues of storage and disposal. The forecast of us ever being able to do that, either in this country or any place in the world, is long term. The point is that there are some other potential options to look at rather than just the two that the waste management organization, which will be authorized by this bill, are supposed to look at.

The other problem with the bill is that it only allows the waste management organization three years to come up with its proposal. Again, what we will be faced with is an organization that is completely dominated by the industry, which has already taken the industry's position of what it wants to do with it, and it will be given three years to come up with a recommendation. We already know what the result will. We will be going back to the original AECL proposal of deep rock burial.

As I have said, if the bill remains the way it is and is passed into law, this will be, to a great extent, a charade that the government has put us through.

I would like to talk a bit more about the options. We have heard some hair-brained ones. I thought that one of the most interesting ones, which was quite star trekkie, was to load the nuclear waste onto a spaceship and shoot it into the sun. With this option we would not only have Star Wars , we would also have all this nuclear waste that potentially could end up in our outer atmosphere. This is not an option that I think any reasonable commission would follow, but there are others.

A fair amount of research is going on in this area and it should be pursued. We are not the only ones doing it. A number of other countries are very active in this regard.

With regard to the timeframe, whatever the waste management organization eventually ends up looking like, there is no way it should be mandated to come back with a report within that timeframe. We have been working on this issue since the late seventies, although it probably should have been longer, and to mandate the organization now when we have this type of controversy, is grossly unfair however it is composed.

In conclusion, I just want to make one additional point concerning the whole issue of the phase out of the nuclear industry.

Although I think most of us are already aware of this, I want to bring to the House's attention that Germany has now moved on this issue. The German government has formerly reached an agreement with the industry that it will phase it out. A number of other countries in Europe are following suit. This waste issue with which we are dealing cries out for Canada to do the same. We have a major problem on our hands that may go on for centuries or even millenniums. We do not need to compound that by increasing the volume of this waste.

As I said earlier, we will support the bill at second reading to get it to committee and for us to make those significant changes. It is obvious from my comments that if those significant changes do not come forward we will be vigorously opposing the legislation at third reading.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I listened attentively to the comments made by my colleague for Windsor--St. Clair and, as always, his comments were mostly reasoned and fairly judicious. I do have one question on his statement regarding Germany.

I think what we have seen on a world scale is that this problem will not go away. A significant point should be made about Germany. The fact remains that although Germany has decided not to support nuclear power plants on German land, it has absolutely no qualms about buying electricity made by nuclear power plants in France. As a matter of fact, it buys a considerable amount of it. I believe this shows that there is a very significant issue at stake here. This problem is not going to go away and we cannot ignore it.

I do agree with having a timeline of three years--and perhaps it should be five but it certainly should not be ten--to actually take action and deal with nuclear waste in some way because the problem is not going to go away.

I would like the hon. member's comments on that.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:35 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, my colleague from the Progressive Conservative Party caught me on this once before during a take note debate. I went back to take a look at this because I did not have an answer for him then, but I have one now.

The answer is that in fact Germany does buy from some of the other countries, France in particular. In France, by the way, active consideration is being given to phasing out its nuclear industry. Germany has seen the purchase of that, and the continued use that it is making of its own plants, as temporary. Germany has set a quota for alternative energy sources, which I have asked our Minister of Natural Resources to do, and I am still waiting to hear back from him on, and in fact has a specific quota for wind power.

If Germany achieves that, which it fully expects to do over the next 10 to 15 years, it will be able to phase out its own industry and cease purchasing electricity in the form of nuclear energy from France and other countries.

With regard to the time limit, my friend is wrong. It is grossly unfair to impose that type of time limit on anybody when we know there are other options that may be coming.

I want to talk about the storage bins that I saw at Pickering. They are designed to last for up to 50 years and are monitored on a 24 hour basis. If there are any problems with them, any cracks or deterioration in the material, they are identified immediately and can then be placed in another storage bin. There is no reason whatsoever for us to impose that type of time limit other than to dump this stuff on some community in the Canadian Shield and let the industry off the hook for the cost of it.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for Windsor--St. Clair for a very interesting speech on a very serious and important subject. I noticed that early on in his remarks he mentioned something about how we as users of energy must start to think about the whole cost of energy sources, which means it is not only the cost of generating a unit of energy but also the costs associated with cleaning up the impact of that energy production.

As an example, we are all used to paying an extra $5 when we buy a tire for our cars. The $5 is built into the price knowing full well that when we are finished using that tire we will have to find a place to dispose of it.

Could the member expand on this new world view that we have to take about energy to deal with the whole cost of energy use.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—St. Clair, ON

Mr. Speaker, it is interesting that whenever I get into this specific topic I always think of the chair of the environment committee and the work he has done, not only with regard to the nuclear industry and the major advantages that we have created for them both by subsidizing and by favourable tax treatment, but also the work he has done with the fossil fuel industry. He is a national expert on this. I believe a couple of private members' bills and some reports have come out of that committee over the years. I acknowledge the work he has done on that committee.

What that work clearly shows is that we have subsidized the nuclear industry and the fossil fuel industry quite extensively. That does not show up in the cost. We have done that with tax dollars as a bottom line. We have subsidized those industries.

Unfortunately I do not have the documents to share with my friend and I will try to get them to him, but what is interesting is that the Canadian Wind Energy Association, which is an association of a number of companies and associations around the country, is trying to develop wind as an alternative form of energy. It was lobbying us in the spring. It was at that time I asked the Minister of Natural Resources for some commitment on alternative energy use.

What that association brought forth was some very interesting research that set out the specific types of subsidies we have had in those two other industries going back to the 1950s. We have not accorded those to solar or wind power companies that are trying to develop those as alternative forms of energy.

We always hear the argument from the nuclear industry that it would only cost so many cents--and it is always gets the amount down to pennies--for a unit of energy if we were to go to nuclear energy. It completely ignores the costs that we are talking about, which I think are minimal in this bill, but it does not show up in that accounting form. It is quite significant, arguably, tripling and quadrupling, if not more, the cost of nuclear energy if we were to seriously analyze what it would cost to deal with nuclear waste.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:40 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I will preface my comments with a few remarks relating to the speech of the hon. member for Windsor--St. Clair. A few other issues need to be recognized. Many alternative forms of energy including solar and wind are being continually developed. If we had put the kinds of dollar into those industries that we put into other industries in the energy sector, perhaps we would have a reasonable alternative now. However I think we must admit the fact that it is not here today or is it likely to be here tomorrow.

Another absolute issue we have to look at is the fact that the world, not just the western world as we know it, is more dependent on nuclear energy and will become even more dependent on nuclear energy not only in 2001 but in the next decade.

The energy requirements of the Indian subcontinent of Pakistan, China and Southeast Asia will have to be met for a growing and burgeoning population. Those countries intend to build 70 to probably somewhere around 180 nuclear reactors in the next 10 to 20 years just to meet the demand for electricity.

I do not think we can pretend that we do not have a issue, not just for Canada but for the entire world, in terms of finding a way to store nuclear waste safely or to change it into a safe form.

It is a pleasure to speak to Bill C-27, the nuclear fuel waste act. Nuclear fuel waste is an issue for all Canadians, even though only three provinces have nuclear power stations. Nevertheless the implications of nuclear fuel waste have long term and widespread impacts.

It is the fear factor associated with nuclear power and nuclear waste which continues to thwart attempts to deal with the issue solely from a technological and a technical standpoint. Unless Canadians can be assured of the relative safety of nuclear power it will be difficult to reach any kind of consensus on how and where to store or to dispose of radioactive waste.

I have seen the fear associated with radioactivity and radioactive materials close up. Nova Scotia contains significant amounts of uranium. In the late 1970s some exploration was undertaken to determine the feasibility of mining uranium near my hometown of New Ross. The thought of uranium mining being undertaken in the area caused a public outcry.

Although the tests determined that the site was not economically feasible, even at the inflated rates of the time of $40 per pound compared with today's value of $8 per pound it demonstrated the fear associated with radioactive materials.

Since the early 1980s there has been a moratorium on uranium mining in Nova Scotia. We are not even talking about radioactive waste; we are just talking about uranium mining. While uranium is unlikely to be mined in Nova Scotia, Atlantic Canadians are well aware of the issue of nuclear fuel waste because of the presence of the Point Lepreau nuclear power station in New Brunswick, located in the riding of my colleague from Saint John.

Combined with the nuclear power station in Quebec and a further 20 nuclear power stations in Ontario, this brings Canada's total to 22. With the fuel waste produced by each of these power plants as they use nuclear fuel bundles to produce electricity, the issue of how to deal with the waste produced is long overdue. In fact the government has been studying the issue for decades, with the most recent report being in 1998.

It is long overdue for the federal government to introduce legislation addressing the matter. The 1998 report of the nuclear fuel waste management and disposal concept environmental assessment panel laid the groundwork for appropriate storage and disposal concepts. It was limited, however, in its examination of the waste management proposals, tasked only with the examination of Atomic Energy of Canada's limited proposal of deep geological disposal and not asked to propose other methods for long term management of nuclear fuel.

The panel, often referred to as the Seaborn panel after its chair Dr. Blair Seaborn, laid out a number of recommendations respecting the long term management of nuclear fuel waste. One of the comments in the report that has been picked up on extensively is the statement that while deep geological disposal is technically sound, it is not acceptable from a social standpoint to many people.

Senator Lois Wilson, a member of the panel at the time, stated that this observation had been misconstrued or misread. Instead of saying that such a disposal method is technically sound, the panel was trying to state that the definition of safety had both a technical and a social aspect. In this regard the method does not meet the criteria on safety. That is the way I understood Senator Wilson's comments on the matter.

We can all appreciate the fear and the questions that Canadians have regarding the issue. We all know about the nuclear bomb from World War II and remember the meltdown at Three Mile Island in the United States.

On March 28, 1979, a series of malfunctions, mistakes and misinterpretations led to the worst nuclear accident in the United States when the nuclear reactor at Three Mile Island experienced a meltdown. Although the accident did not release significant amounts of radiation into the nearby area, the consequences could have been disastrous.

The disaster at Chernobyl augmented these fears. In 1986 the reactor in Kiev, Ukraine, part of the Soviet Union at that time, ruptured the containment structure and sent radiation through the northern hemisphere. As many as 75 million people were exposed to high levels of radiation.

I mention these points not to confuse the issue of dealing with radioactive waste but to further submit the fear of general public about radioactivity and the nuclear sector. It is difficult to say whether this fear is valid and whether there are technological ways we can deal with.

Whether for war or peaceful purposes like power generation anything involving nuclear capability represents the unknown to many Canadians. However it also represents two of the reasons legislation dealing with nuclear fuel waste is important, first, to address the long term need to deal with waste so that nuclear power continues to represent a viable and productive energy source and, second, to establish a fund to ensure that if problems occur money is available.

Whether for compensation, repair or other extraneous matters, without an independent third party body to deal with waste management responsibility falls to the federal government. Already accused of conflict of interest because of the desire to augment sales of Candu reactors, the government needs to be open and transparent in its examination of nuclear fuel waste disposal proposals.

The Seaborn panel carried out public consultations throughout its study. Since then there have been discussions with aboriginal groups about possible deep geological storage within the Canadian Shield in northern Ontario. These discussions must be open and encourage debate and a thorough examination of all issues involved.

The legislation would establish a waste management organization that would report to the minister. It would collect and oversee financial contributions by the 22 nuclear power stations and Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd. It would be an independent third party organization, but already I question some of the parameters or lack thereof respecting this organization.

It is important for all Canadians to be privy to information that affects their safety. This means information must be publicly reported on a timely basis. I will be expecting more detailed answers as the legislation is studied at committee stage. I hope the minister plans to live up to his commitment that no concessions would be made respecting safety or transparency.

Some experts suggest that long term storage and above ground storage containers could continue for extended periods of time, while others argue that the issue must be dealt with in the near future. Reports indicate that there are 1.3 million spent fuel bundles from nuclear power stations in temporary storage in Canada.

The waste management organization would be tasked with determining what storage method is safest. The legislation would be one step toward a long term storage initiative for nuclear fuel waste. As the world's leading supplier of uranium Canada needs to look at the overall impacts of nuclear power which includes nuclear fuel waste and its management.

I look forward to informed debate on the issue in committee. Like other members of the natural resources committee, I hope the process will be entirely clear and transparent, that we will be able to call informed and expert witnesses before the committee, and that we will take the time to study all areas and all clauses of the particular piece of legislation.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

NDP

Pat Martin NDP Winnipeg Centre, MB

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member mentioned a number of times during his speech how it is quite likely we will see 100 or 125 new nuclear reactors in the immediate future to meet the increasing demand for electricity.

One thing I noticed was that the hon. member did not dwell on or mention some interesting news out of the United States. The Bonneville power authority, which I believe is the largest power authority anywhere in North America, covers a lot of the western seaboard, California and the coast. It has actually precluded the need for eight nuclear power plants through a comprehensive demand side management program. In other words, by reducing the amount of electricity that it uses, it precluded the need for eight nuclear power plants in that geographic region alone.

The Tennessee Valley hydro authority, which covers a lot of the eastern-southern states, has also had similar effects with an aggressive demand side conservation program.

Rather than take a fait accompli attitude that we will have these nuclear power plants and therefore we better find a way to deal with the waste, would the hon. member care to dwell on perhaps a more positive approach? The fact is that as citizens of the planet we can find a way to produce the energy we need or to deal with our precious energy resources in a lot more responsible way.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

12:55 p.m.

Progressive Conservative

Gerald Keddy Progressive Conservative South Shore, NS

Mr. Speaker, I entirely agree with the hon. member's comments. However we must continue to try to find alternatives. Where I disagree is that we cannot ignore reality. The reality is that there are no available alternatives at the present time for all energy needs of the planet.

If we stop producing nuclear energy tomorrow we still have a responsibility as stewards of the planet to look after the radioactive waste that is produced and lying in wait to be disposed of in some form right now. We have to face that serious burden.

The Bonneville power station is a power complex and is able to shut down eight reactors. I applaud that but I am very suspicious. I do not have all the details, but one of my colleagues thought it was because it had switched those reactors and was burning Canadian natural gas, which I suspect is true.

We need to seek alternatives. We need to look at all of them, including hydro, tidal, deep ocean currents, solar, and essentially all aspects and prospects available to us.

We cannot ignore that we have a problem with nuclear fuel waste with which we have to deal today. We have a responsibility not to put it off but to deal with it now and not store it for another 50 years for someone else to deal with.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

1 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, 22 years ago in a former incarnation as a member of the Ontario legislature and as a member of the select committee on Ontario hydro affairs the subject of the storage of high level nuclear waste was on the front burner. The committee was taken to Whiteshell, Manitoba, and exposed to the technology to be used for the long term burial of that waste. It is the same technology being proposed in the bill. It was highly developed 22 years ago. I believe that is rather ironic.

Politics entered into the debate because storage required the location and development of a natural formation of impervious rock known as a pluton. There are some hundreds of plutons in the northern parts of Ontario, Manitoba, and elsewhere. When it got down to actually developing it, public resistance did not allow for it.

The bill before us might have been more useful 22 years ago. However the minister must be commended for bringing the legislation before the House at this time. It shows that he understands the problem is still with us and growing.

The bill would provide a three year study period which is felt to be quite adequate despite my friend from Windsor--St. Clair claiming that it is not enough time. Enough is known and understood now about the technology. This is a great step forward.

I remember some 22 years ago raising the question of long term storage of nuclear waste at power sites being vulnerable to terrorist attack. The plants were not designed to be secure. The waste being stored in what we called swimming pools at that time was vulnerable because they could have been drained and have released radioactive material. That is still the case. Over the years the amount of radioactive material has compounded. Whether or not nuclear power has a long term future in Canada, the waste is still there and must be dealt with.

In spite of my overwhelming support for the bill I have a concern about its content. My concern is provincial in nature and has to do with financing. We may have difficulty amending the legislation in an effective manner. The bill clearly states that funding would come from the utility involved or a third party. When I see the expression third party I begin to get concerned about the fact that I could read it as subsidy.

If there is third party funding that results in a subsidy for electric power generation, it once more gives us a false sense of what it really costs to produce electricity from nuclear power. There is no energy in Canada that is not subject to some form of subsidy, whether it is financing on the tar sands or the $16.2 billion that has already gone into nuclear subsidy over the last 40 years or so. The time has come, especially looking into the future and the energy options as my friend across the way mentioned, to deal with the real costs of producing energy and the real environmental costs as well.

In an article in the Globe and Mail a couple of weeks ago, two professors in California did a comparison of generating electricity with wind power versus coal. At first coal was half the price of wind generated power but when the true environmental costs were injected into the equation, wind power won. Such is the case with many other forms of energy and energy comparisons.

As long as we keep the blinders on and fail to look at the true costs and keep convincing ourselves that what we are paying at the moment is the real cost, we will not be able to proceed into a new and necessary era of renewable and environmentally sustainable energy. Those technologies are there, they are mature and developed but they are not attracting sufficient investment to make them work. That is why I have a concern for the third party addition in the bill.

When the bill is studied at committee, I will attempt to introduce an amendment that may be satisfactory, if we can satisfy ourselves that it is also constitutional because electric power generation is the purview of the provinces and we are not the provinces. At least we will make that attempt. Hopefully through the discussion and debate that will ensue we will expose the fact that we are not looking at true costs for energy and that we need to do what my friend across the way described as whole costing. Whole costing must be the way of the future.

We can no longer hide our heads in the sand as we have done for so many years, particularly in Ontario. The premier told us a few months ago that the stranded asset, and I use that term advisedly because it should be stranded debt, has now reached $38 billion. That is unrecoverable money that was never passed through the electric power system and the power corporation act clearly stated that the mandate was to produce power at cost. We have deluded ourselves over the years. I am not familiar enough with other provinces to know whether similar activities have gone on but this has resulted in a serious concern inside the province. Ultimately the taxpayers of Ontario will be the ones who will have to cough up the $38 billion one way or another.

In conclusion, I support the bill and what it is intended to do. Finally we are getting a grip on one of the key components of nuclear power generation. If nuclear power has any chance of a future, this has got to be dealt with. I think the bill does it but I will be supporting an amendment at committee stage that will do something with the wording of third party.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could just pick up on something the member said just before he sat down. He said that it was necessary to deal with the question of waste in order that there be a secure future for nuclear power. That is just the point that we are trying to make.

The question of how we deal with the waste should be separate from any interest, either at the level of the hon. member or vested, that is to say at the level of AECL, in the future of nuclear power. We should be dealing with the question of waste independently of whether or not we agree about the role of nuclear power. Otherwise, particularly as this bill is drafted, the people who are put in charge of determining waste solutions, determining what is acceptable and determining if in fact there is an acceptable way of dealing with nuclear waste are the same people who have a vested interest in saying that there is a solution, even if there is not. If they cannot arrive at a solution it is more difficult for them to promote nuclear power and it is more difficult for them to market Candu reactors around the world.

There is a conflict of interest regardless of whether one is in favour of nuclear power or against it. Does the hon. member not see that? The argument that people are making about the conflict of interest is a bit like the old analogy of putting the fox in charge of the henhouse. We would not tolerate this kind of conflict of interest in any other industry. Why do we tolerate it? Why does the government tolerate it in this industry when the Seaborn panel, which the government set up in order to make recommendations, recommended against that very kind of conflict of interest?

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, this bill was introduced by the federal government. It is the federal government, the minister and the elected representatives who are accountable to the people. If decisions are made that would be erroneously approved by a minister or a subsequent minister or whomever, it is he or she who would be directly accountable to the people.

The other comment I should make is that nuclear knowledge, the technology, lies within these bodies. It always has. I am not sure how my hon. friend would deal with putting a decision in the hands of a third party who probably would be about as knowledgeable as the member or myself and once again would be vulnerable to making an erroneous decision.

I think that the best path has been struck. We go to the technology and then have the people who are accountable to the public make the ultimate decisions.

Nuclear Fuel Waste ActGovernment Orders

1:10 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Roy H. Bailey Canadian Alliance Souris—Moose Mountain, SK

Mr. Speaker, I enjoyed the deliberation by the hon. member for Halton very much. I can tell he has a real interest in the issue and I am sure he is a valuable member on the committee.

The member mentioned one thing which has excited me since before the days of rural electrification, wind power. I had one of those 32 volt batteries.

Why is it that in Canada we have been so far behind what we find in Denmark and in parts of Germany in wind power? We have recently put some in, as the hon. member from Regina said, in a place called Gull Lake. Why have Canadians not taken advantage of this more in Canada? For example, they tell me that Pincher Creek, Alberta is where God invented wind yet those wind towers have never really proven to be successful.

Could the hon. member give me any reason why we have not progressed in that field?

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

I would be pleased to, Mr. Speaker. In 1996 the federal government signed memoranda of understanding with every province, undertaking to purchase a percentage of its electricity needs from green energy. The only province to ratify that memorandum of understanding was Alberta. It is only in this year that Prince Edward Island and Saskatchewan have ratified.

The result in Alberta is that green energy is moving on and doing well. When we were in Edmonton a few weeks ago, the people who run the LRT in Calgary announced that they would be buying green power to run that train. The slogan they have adopted is wonderful; “ride the wind”.

The elements were put in place by the federal government in 1996, but only a few provinces have ratified. We are most anxious that all the provinces get on board. The result in Alberta has been that private industry is now saying that it wants to hang up the green sign too.

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Howard Hilstrom Canadian Alliance Selkirk—Interlake, MB

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question with regard to a problem we have right now with nuclear waste. The member for Provencher is not here to talk about AECL and Whiteshell, which is a research facility that has been decommissioned, so to speak. The solution to the winding down of the Whiteshell research plant was in essence to mothball it, leaving the nuclear materials still in place. My riding is right beside it and many people from my riding worked there. We were sorry to see it close down. We would really like to see that place cleaned up and put back so that we can use the whole thing for tourism and so on.

What will happen to that waste material? Are we just going to have to leave that plant and store it forever?

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1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Julian Reed Liberal Halton, ON

Mr. Speaker, the reason for its existence is that Whiteshell is located on impervious rock known as a pluton. All the early work for long term storage was done there. If the pluton concept is acceptable, which we were told it was 22 years ago, the pluton at Whiteshell is probably the safest place for the long term storage of that material. What would be gained by removing it and putting it above ground somewhere? That technology is now probably considered the front runner in terms of the choices that will be made in the future for ultra long term storage.

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1:15 p.m.

Canadian Alliance

Gurmant Grewal Canadian Alliance Surrey Central, BC

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people of Surrey Central, I am pleased to participate in the debate on Bill C-27, an act respecting the long term management of nuclear fuel waste.

The bill, if passed, would require the creation of a long term management strategy for the disposal of nuclear fuel waste in an integrated, comprehensive and cost effective manner. To do this, major owners of nuclear waste would have to create a waste management organization to implement the long term strategies for handling, treatment, conditioning or transporting for the purpose of storage or disposal of nuclear fuel waste.

Nuclear fuel waste means irradiated fuel bundles removed from a nuclear fission reactor. This nuclear waste management organization has the responsibility to determine fiscally responsible and realistic options for the long term management of nuclear fuel waste. It would also direct the organization to establish trust funds to finance the above activities.

The act applies to Atomic Energy of Canada Limited or its assignees and nuclear energy corporations, which would deposit the following respective amounts to its trust fund within 10 days after the act comes into force: Ontario Power Generation, $500 million; Hydro-Quebec, $20 million; New Brunswick Power Corporation,$20 million; and Atomic Energy of Canada Limited, $10 million. Then additional amounts of $100 million, $4 million, $4 million and $2 million per year respectively from all these four organizations will be deposited until the minister approves the amount of the deposit.

I have some concerns regarding the bill. The fee or cost of managing seems to be vague, unclear and perhaps unjustified. I am concerned as to how they have calculated the amounts and for how long the deposits have to be made. I have no idea and the bill does not explain anything about that.

According to Bill C-27, the governor in council would decide as to the best approach to be implemented by the organization. I am concerned that the decision should be based on management and scientific facts with no political interference.

The other concern I have, which has raised eyebrows, is that the nuclear industry has stood alone for many years and no such levies were in place within the industry for disposal of their hazardous wastes. Whereas, other industries that have to deal with the cleanup of hazardous and potentially dangerous or damaging materials have to have similar funds as a condition of their licensing,

Why has this weak Liberal government been neglecting this important safety issue since 1993? It seems to be in line with the character, culture and attitude within the Liberal government to neglect, as it has with many other important issues, such as the budget, health care, defence, organized crime, terrorism, national security, the safety and welfare of Canadians and many other issues.

The nuclear industry cannot operate without the proper checks and balances in place.

This legislation would bring the nuclear industry, which deals with this most serious and dangerous stuff, at par with other industries in providing overall safety for Canadians, which has not been a priority for the government for so many years.

The other concern I have is that the government and the waste management organization must be focused on results, not just on the process. The organization would create an advisory council to examine the study, the triennial reports that have to be submitted to the minister and comment on that study.

I am also concerned that the advisory council would be appointed by the governing body of the organization and nominated by government to include representatives of local regional governments and aboriginal organizations. Based on the track record of the Liberal government, I am afraid it will be used again as a patronage opportunity for failed Liberal candidates or their friends.

Another concern I have is highlighted in the Ottawa Sun of today. We have about 22 reactors in Canada. They were placed on enhanced security within hours after the September 11 terrorist attacks in the U.S.A. Could any of them withstand an attack similar to the World Trade Center attack? The fear is that an airborne attack could rupture the containment buildings designed to isolate radioactive materials. The president of the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission has assured, according to the article, that the measures in place are adequate but are under evaluation.

Atomic Energy of Canada has imposed a secure airspace of 3,000 feet, or 3.5 nautical miles, around the research campus at Chalk River. However, the industry is in denial about the threat of airborne attacks, which the reactors were never designed to withstand.

The Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission said that there was no identified terrorist attempt against Canada. However, the crown corporation is in contact with the RCMP and CSIS on a daily basis. The interesting point is the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission has conceded that its reactors are vulnerable to airline crashes, but Canadian officials are not making such admissions. Canadian officials are declining comment.

I am concerned that in such an unfortunate event how well equipped are we to handle such circumstances?

I hope and expect that the above concerns will be addressed. The bill does not yet address those concerns. The government has finally realized that a trust fund at the expense of the nuclear industry merely asks those who make the mess to clean up the mess and to pay for it.

The riding of Surrey Central, which I proudly represent, could have used something like a nuclear safety commission 25 years ago when it first became the temporary home of some 4,000 tonnes of radioactive material. For over two and a half decades, my constituents have been exposed to radioactive and toxic material in the heart of the community of Newton in Surrey.

In June 1972 a firm in Surrey was licensed by the federal government to import niobium ore containing radioactive thorium. The imported ore was used in smelting operations. Tonnes of hazardous waste was ignored and left unattended in the open until 1976. It was 1984 before the federal government accepted responsibility for it.

I heard from people in that area that children played on it. Some unconfirmed reports said that some cows from a nearby dairy farm died.

The feds forgot about the radioactive waste again until October 1989 when a special task force was appointed, on a volunteer basis, to deal with the storage, handling and disposal of the hazardous, unprotected piles of smelter slag and contaminated soil in a corner at 7800 Anvil Way in Newton. As well, there were barrels of concentrated radioactive material rusting in Thornton yard of the CN rail. I went there and took pictures. The barrels were rusted and contained concentrated radioactive material.

The slag, which was left in the open, remained there for a number of years. This material was also used as a filling when a building was constructed on that site.

The Surrey citing task force consulted with local, provincial and federal government. The federal government appointed, on a voluntary basis, an organization comprised of two people to look after this radioactive material. It stored the material in a concrete bunker for 25 years, calling it temporary storage.

The federal voluntary task force could not find a permanent solution to the problem. Communities it contacted, including remote and abandoned uranium mines, refused to accept that material. It is a crime to have kept that hazardous material in the heart of the country's fastest growing city, Surrey.

As a member of the foreign affairs committee then dealing with nuclear proliferation, I found out about this neglected storage site. After some research and consultation, I lobbied for three years and personally followed up with the Minister of Natural Resources until that 4,000 tonnes of dangerous material was finally removed from Surrey.

Some of it has gone to Chalk River, Ontario while more was finally dumped in Arlington, in Washington state.

The land slag was also excavated under the building. The building was supported and the material was excavated from under the building. The whole operation was very expensive to taxpayers and has been kept kind of secret by the federal government.

I am happy that finally my pressure had results and the Minister of Natural Resources was helpful in dealing with the issue. I thank him for that.

The longer the delay, the higher the cost and the more potential for harm and danger in the community. I knocked on doors in that area to find out how people felt, but many did not even know about it. The federal government did not educate the community members about that material.

That is a shameful story highlighting carelessness and neglect by the federal government in dealing with hazardous and radioactive waste in Surrey.

In conclusion, on behalf of the people of Surrey Central, I will be paying very close attention to the work of the proposed waste management organization to see that the travesty that occurred in my riding does not happen anywhere else.

I urge government members as well as the minister to look seriously at the issue, to look into the concerns and to make possible amendments if they can. While I support the bill because it is a step in the right direction, even though it is a baby step, I will also say that the measures such as those contained in the legislation obviously are long overdue.

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Not so long ago the government expressed an interest in suspending the House until question period if debate ran out but I did not realize it had the intention of suspending just one side of the House. Given that there are only three members of the government caucus present I would like to call for a quorum count.

And the count having been taken:

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1:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

There is a quorum.

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Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague opposite for calling quorum because it guaranteed that there will be an audience in the Chamber for the remarks I am about to make.

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Give him 60 seconds.

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1:35 p.m.

Liberal

John Bryden Liberal Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Aldershot, ON

With due respect to my colleague opposite, the remarks I will be making will I think engage the attention of all members because I would like to think they are of some importance.

Mr. Speaker, this is a very important bill. The problem of nuclear waste cleanup in the United States is a $100 billion problem. Throughout the cold war period the Americans and their production of weapons grade nuclear fuel caused enormous damage to the environment, particularly in the western states. It has become a very serious problem in the United States. I think the bill correctly addresses the issue that if we are going to have nuclear power we have to put money up front to control nuclear waste.

However, I do believe this bill is seriously flawed. It has a flaw in it that I think must be attended to in committee. I will certainly support the bill in principle but it has to be attended to.

Mr. Speaker, as you know I have a certain passing interest in access to information. You will know that crown corporations like Atomic Energy of Canada Limited are outside the Access to Information Act. None of us can see any of the documentation or any of the information that internally travels within this crown corporation. The reason why that is important is that in my view there are not enough provisions in the legislation for the kind of transparency we must have in order to ensure that Atomic Energy of Canada Limited and the other corporations affected by this act will indeed proceed with nuclear waste disposal and treatment in a manner that is consistent with environmental protection and using the best scientific instruments possible and the best scientific knowledge possible.

Something as important as the deep burial of nuclear waste is something that needs to be tracked effectively by the public at large, by parliament, not just by, shall we say, relatively incomplete reports to the minister. Let me explain in detail.

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1:35 p.m.

NDP

Bill Blaikie NDP Winnipeg—Transcona, MB

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Unfortunately the member has not succeeded in holding the attention of his colleagues. Again we do not have quorum.

And the count having been taken:

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1:35 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker

Resuming debate, the hon. member for Ancaster--Dundas--Flamborough.