Debates of Sept. 27th, 2001

Nuclear Fuel Waste Act

[Nancy Karetak-Lindell, Liberal, Nunavut, NU]

Madam Speaker, yesterday I talked a bit about the certainty that Bill C-33 would provide for Nunavut so I will carry on from there.

This proposed legislation would also provide certainty for industry. For example, it would set out clear ground rules for the issuing of water licences and for the enforcement of licence conditions. The legislation would also ensure that resource developers have access to lands for the purpose of exercising their subsurface rights.

Anyone who is familiar with the resource industry will understand that clear and consistent rules of the game are essential for projects to go forward. No company will invest in a multimillion dollar project if there is genuine concern about the validity or conditions of a needed water licence. No company will consider a development opportunity if it is not guaranteed reasonable and affordable access to the site. Bill C-33 addresses these and other issues of stability and certainty that are important to industry.

The Nunavut land claims agreement has clarified the Inuit position about who owns the land and resources in the eastern Arctic. What we need now is a certain and consistent resource management regime of which water management and surface rights are a key element. This certainty is critical if the new territory is to take advantage of its resource development potential.

In a region where unemployment is a longstanding challenge and where an ever growing number of young people are looking for work, we must do everything possible to support sustainable development and job creation. It is worth noting that the three existing mines in Nunavut are nearing the end of their economic life. Further exploration and development would be welcome in Nunavut and it would be encouraged and facilitated by this legislation.

However Bill C-33 would do more than provide a secure base for economic activity. For example, Bill C-33 would give the surface rights tribunal the power to award compensation for loss of income resulting from damages to wildlife or to wildlife harvesting equipment caused by development activities. As well, the Nunavut water board would not be allowed to issue, renew or amend a water use or waste deposit licence that may substantially affect waters that flow through Inuit owned land unless a compensation package is in place.

Bill C-33 also addresses a land claims commitment to name an individual or fund that would be held liable for damages to wildlife from marine activities. This issue must be addressed in order to protect the interests of government and taxpayers as well as to provide guarantees to Inuit harvesters.

Bill C-33 will provide another important element of certainty, the certainty that the residents of Nunavut will be heard on issues related to water, the environment and their communities.

The proposed legislation would stipulate that a minimum number of members of the surface rights tribunal must live in Nunavut. As well, four of the eight members of the Nunavut water board are to be nominated by Nunavut Tunngavik Incorporated, which represents the Inuit under their land claims agreement.

I would like to remind my hon. colleagues that we are not being asked to invent new institutions of government in Nunavut. Preliminary versions of the water board and the surface rights tribunal were established through the Nunavut land claims agreement and are performing the functions set out in the Nunavut land claims agreement. Both institutions are modelled on existing regimes that are working well in other parts of Canada.

What we are being asked to do is ensure that these institutions have the full backing of federal legislation, and in the case of the water board, the backing of federal regulations. This is absolutely essential if they are to do their jobs as envisioned in the land claims agreement.

We already went through a summer of uncertainty where the licence issued to the town of Iqualuit was questioned, the validity disputed and the authority of the board undermined by the lack of clarity.

We are also being asked to ensure that the country lives up to commitments that have been made to the Inuit. Meeting Canada's obligation to aboriginal people is an underlying principle of Gathering Strength--Canada's Aboriginal Action Plan, an objective that must be supported by all hon. members. In this regard Bill C-33 is the fair and right thing to do and it is long overdue.

In closing I would urge hon. members to give careful consideration to Bill C-33. This is clearly an important piece of legislation for the people of Nunavut. It should be sent to committee for review as soon as possible.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is the House ready for the question?

[Some hon. members]

Question.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Some hon. members]

On division

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Accordingly the bill is referred to the Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs, Northern Development and Natural Resources.

(Motion agreed to, bill read the second time and referred to a committee)

Business of the House

[Don Boudria, Liberal, Leader of the Government in the House of Commons]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. I am pleased to inform the House that there have been further negotiations and I believe you would find consent for the following:

That at the end of Government Orders, the House shall proceed immediately to the debate scheduled pursuant to Standing Order 52 and that Private Members' Business Motion 361, previously scheduled for today, be dropped to the bottom of the order of precedence on the order paper.

In other words, we are dropping private members' hour.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

Is that agreed?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

Privilege

[Deborah Grey, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton North, AB]

Mr. Speaker, I rise on a question of privilege about something that has happened over the last several days which I believe has truly infringed on my responsibilities as a member of parliament, and also affects the constituents of Edmonton North who have corresponded with me over the years.

This is a pretty serious issue. When this saga began on Monday, I really did not think there was a serious problem. My assistant logged on to her computer, as would be a normal thing to do on a Monday, but discovered that she could not access our computer which is of course what she does every day. When she phoned the House information services people to find out what the problem was with the computer, she was informed that my computer S and U drives had been shut down, frozen by the Canadian Alliance. I could hardly believe it, but I continued to check it.

It is now Thursday afternoon and we have lost an entire business week. My entire computer system has been frozen and shut down with a number of files on it with my contacts, correspondence and files with my constituents.

When we located where the files actually were and dug deeper into it, we discovered that when I was serving as the Leader of the Official Opposition on an interim basis from March until September 2000, the server was allocated to the Leader of the Opposition office by the House of Commons. While I was serving as the leader on an interim basis, that was the server through the House of Commons information services.

Of course the question is why was I not taken off that server over a year ago? Obviously it was not done by whoever was supposed to do it and my office has just continued on in my capacity as the member of parliament for Edmonton North.

My correspondence and files on the computer disappeared on Monday. The S and U drives were completely frozen. Evidently we understood in the ensuing days this week that the Alliance whip's office wanted to go through all the files. We checked that out further. A representative from the House of Commons planning and communications department, with whom we checked about this, said to my staff, “The two sides will work it out. We won't release any information until both sides agree on a decision and then issue a joint directive”, which sounds very sensible to me. “You folks work it out and then come and see me, and I can release this information”.

Yesterday afternoon the Alliance whip staff member said to my assistant at a retirement pizza party, and let us make sure that it was a fairly informal gathering, “Let's get together and go over these files and then I will decide what can be released and what cannot”. My assistant said, “This is our computer, our constituents files and correspondence”. There were years worth of stuff in there, and my assistant said, “No, I do not think it is any of your business. This is our computer and we will just carry on so no, I am not interested in doing that”. She brought that to my attention.

We have spent almost the entire day on this. As far as I understand from various people, the staffer then checked with information services and legal counsel and said that I, as the member of parliament, had declined the invitation to review the files with him and that he was coming to look at them, that in effect he had been given the okay, that it was all right for him and I had just been assumed to have said, “Sure. Go ahead”, when in fact nothing of the sort had been offered. He then was given permission and access to my files to go through them with no negotiation and no representation from my office, either me or one of my staff members.

Just as an aside, let me say that when I finished my role as the caucus chairman in April, in the spring of 2001, I turned over a physical filing cabinet full of stuff to the new caucus chairman of the Alliance, the member for Langley--Abbotsford, as well as all of the disks with all of the caucus minutes since 1993. I certainly have nothing to hide. Any correspondence that the staff member may have looked through today certainly is not very exciting, I can assure him. Of course if that is my privacy, there is an incredible invasion there. I think all members need to be aware of that.

As I just said, I have nothing to hide. The information has been gone over now. He was given full access to it earlier today without any negotiation or any okay or representation from my staff. This is about the privacy of my files, the privacy of my correspondence with constituents and the sanctity of those files wherein constituents have asked me to represent them in terms of tax issues, immigration issues, and national defence issues. I have an incredible amount of information on those issues which I and every member in the House would assume would be safe and the sanctity of which would be paramount.

Nobody from anywhere contacted me about proceeding with a review of all the files on my computer. I was not contacted. I made some inquiries late this afternoon. I have been working on this. I arrived here at 6.35 this morning and received a phone call some time after that from someone who was concerned about it. It has not only consumed the entire day but the entire week, effectively a week where my assistant has been completely frozen from her computer system. It is unbelievable.

The main concern is that House officials never contacted me about proceeding. They took it on a staffer's word that I declined so it was okay. “She declined the invitation so let us go through the files”.

We must also guard against this happening to any other member in the House ever again. I am sure all of my colleagues would agree with me. Tories have crossed the floor to the Liberals and Liberals have gone to the Bloc over the years, and their files go with them. I am astounded that this has happened.

The Legal Counsel, Rob Walsh, said to me before question period at about 1.50 that he thought it had been cleared up by 7.30 this morning. I told him we still did not have a computer. I will read a memo that I received at 2.37 from the whip staffer:

I have just contacted Information Services and instructed them to release all your files on the S & U drives with the exception of documents that relate solely to the Canadian Alliance Caucus.

Fair enough. In fact they had all of them in a filing cabinet that I had turned over in April.

These files are old caucus agendas, Alliance staff and MP lists and organizational charts for the OLO.

Of course those very things would be in a physical filing cabinet.

These files have been temporarily stored in a folder where only I have access and are stored as “read only” so that they cannot be altered. If you are satisfied with my above explanation as to the files that remain in our possession, then I will instruct Information Services to delete these files. If there is some doubt, I will hold onto them until that doubt is removed. I trust this is satisfactory.

In fact it raises an unbelievable number of questions, Mr. Speaker, questions which I think you as the chief of the precinct here need to answer.

The first question is who initiated this and when and why? I served as the Leader of the Opposition on an interim basis until over one year ago. Who initiated this and when?

Second, why was I not informed, either verbally or in writing, of this decision for someone to paw through my files when it was made? There was no contact with my office whatsoever.

Third, who let them into those files without any negotiation or any knowledge on my part?

Fourth, how do I know which files were removed? It is one thing to say that everything is cool and here we are. I cannot even get into those files and the S and U drives to find out what might be missing or what might have been stored elsewhere.

Fifth, how do I know that they will not exercise the same privilege in my office? I think of all of us, no matter which party we serve in, does someone somewhere have a master key and they can help themselves to information?

Mr. Speaker, you and I both know about the sanctity of our files, the sanctity of our responsibilities and the sanctity of our own private office space. I believe that has been breached.

Finally, if they were just reading directory names, as the assistant led us to believe, and they were just having a little look at the directory names, how would they determine if it was in fact these caucus documents as he referred to, lists, organizational charts, staff and MP lists? It would almost seem that someone would have to enter that file. I am not sure any of us could be guaranteed that all the files were not entered.

Mr. Speaker, as upset as I could be over this, I can assure you that I have constituents who have asked me to look into some very serious matters on their behalf. They do not know where these things are now. I am not sure they would be impressed that somebody somewhere, on somebody's direction, with somebody not knowing about it was looking through their files. I just do not think that is cool.

Mr. Speaker, I am asking you to look into this and to answer the questions I have raised. Then of course there is the overarching question of why it was that the House officials never even contacted me about proceeding with reviewing my private files. We must also guard against this happening again and ensure that it will never, ever happen again to anybody of any party or any political stripe in this Chamber.

[Dick Harris, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to the question of privilege brought forward by the member for Edmonton North.

Late Tuesday afternoon my office was contacted by the office of the member for Edmonton North in regard to this situation. Immediately after being informed, my staff contacted the House liaison officer in the information services department to clarify both our rights and our responsibilities.

As you can appreciate, Mr. Speaker, given the relative newness of the information age, there was some confusion on the part of information services as to how to proceed. My staff did, however, contact the staff of the member for Edmonton North later that afternoon to say that we were working on the matter with information services in an effort to satisfy the security needs of the Canadian Alliance caucus as well as the needs of the member for Edmonton North as it relates to her performance of her parliamentary duties.

On Wednesday my staff also contacted the office of legal counsel to further clarify our rights and responsibilities. It is the opinion of legal counsel that we were well within our rights to ensure that all information under the member's name which resides on the server under the sole authority of the Canadian Alliance caucus and under the jurisdiction of the whip, is in fact information to which she is entitled. My staff then discussed with the member's staff a solution to ensure that both the needs of the member and the needs of our caucus could be met in a timely fashion. That offer unfortunately was not taken up by the staff member from the office of the member for Edmonton North.

We have no desire to deprive the member for Edmonton North of information to which she is rightfully entitled. However, we must as well be confident that our rights are not compromised in that process. We have assured the member that we are more than willing to transfer all of the information that is rightfully hers once we are sure the files do not contain information to which she is no longer entitled by virtue of her expulsion from the Canadian Alliance caucus.

To that end we have since received clarification from the chief information officer and are now in the process of facilitating the return of the appropriate files.

I trust, Mr. Speaker, you will find that my office has acted not only in a responsible manner, but that we have done so with great dispatch. Therefore, I respectfully submit that no question of privilege exists.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the issue is now the information is in the possession of the hon. member for Edmonton North. There was not a timely effort made on the part of the Canadian Alliance to return the information.

The real issue that concerns all of us, and in particular the hon. member for Edmonton North, is the fact that she or a member of her staff were not present when this selection of information, this intellectual property that may have belonged to the Canadian Alliance and not the hon. member for Edmonton North, took place.

I submit that very much infringed upon the hon. member's privileges, to have that process take place without a representative of hers present. This very much jeopardizes the security and the sanctity, as she said, of this intellectual property. That is no different than if it was in a tangible hard form, as if it was a piece of paper. The information on the hard drive of the computer system was hers and hers alone. It should not have been selectively pawed through by anyone without her presence and her okay. That is where this issue becomes most serious.

[The Speaker]

In the circumstances, the Chair will take this matter under advisement. I want to determine the facts that are obviously somewhat in dispute on both sides. I am prepared to a look at the situation and come back to the House at a later date, and deal with the matter.

Committees of the House

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, discussions have taken place between all parties and I believe you would find consent for the following motion. I move:

That the 28th report of the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs concerning the membership and associate membership of Standing Committees of the House of Commons be deemed tabled and concurred in.

By way of explanation, our committee agreed that this in no way affected the current sitting of the public accounts committee.

[The Speaker]

Does the hon. member for Peterborough have the unanimous consent of the House to propose the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Speaker]

Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

(Motion agreed to)

[The Speaker]

Pursuant to Standing Order 52 and to the order made earlier this day, the House shall now resolve itself into committee of the whole to consider a specific and important matter requiring urgent consideration; namely, the agricultural industry.

I do now leave the chair for the House to go into committee of the whole.

Agriculture

[The Assistant Deputy Chairman]

House in committee of the whole to consider a specific and important matter requiring urgent consideration, namely the agricultural industry.

[Howard Hilstrom, Canadian Alliance, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

moved:

That the committee take note of the crisis facing the agricultural industry.

Madam Chairman, the issue we are dealing with in agriculture is essentially comprised of two issues: first, the massive drought that has occurred across the country this year; and second, the ongoing low commodity prices, particularly in the grains and oilseeds area. There has been some increase in those prices, but the problem continues. With the drought, the farmers do not have the grains and oilseeds to sell to take advantage of some price increases, which we may hear about later on in the debate.

Canadian farmers from coast to coast are suffering from these drought conditions. I believe that the government, the cabinet and the agriculture minister are continuing to ignore the needs of farm families and rural Canada. This is not in the national interest. Agriculture is far too important in these troubled times to have our food supply in jeopardy.

The Liberal agriculture minister refused to acknowledge the depths of the ongoing farm income crisis and the exasperating impact of the drought. In regard to safety nets, CP Wire spoke to the agriculture minister. He was of the opinion that he still needed to know how the existing disaster assistance programs were working before committing more funds.

I know the agriculture minister is interested in the debate and I hope he will participate in it. I know he does have a concern for farmers and this issue. As a matter of fact I see that he is here. However I am concerned that he may not be getting enough feedback from members of parliament and the different constituencies to bring home to him and his cabinet colleagues the seriousness of the issue with which we are dealing.

Initiating the debate is part of the Canadian Alliance promise to farmers over the summer that agriculture would be before parliament. When the drought came along that promise was even more important. I am pleased that this has come before the committee of the whole. This is in addition to the serious issue of terrorism with which we are dealing.

The Canadian Alliance member for Saskatoon--Rosetown--Biggar is unable to be here. She is in the maritimes talking to farmers and others with regard to agriculture and family issues. The member certainly wants her farmers to know that their message is getting across in parliament.

Last year was eighth driest for southern Alberta since weather records began in 1886. Between April and August there was only 50 millimetres of rain. In Saskatchewan it was similar. In Ontario there were reports from the Waterloo airport that it had been the driest year since records were kept some 30 years ago. The drought is having a massive compounding effect across the country.

As all member know, Prince Edward Island has a big potato industry. It is the source of the majority of potatoes for the Cavendish Farms and McCain Foods processing factories. These companies have had to import potatoes because there is an insufficient supply of potatoes in Prince Edward Island. This is the seriousness of this problem.

Grains and oilseeds are a special case. The safety net programs, the Canadian farm income program, the crop insurance program and the NISA program are not working for the grains and oilseeds sector. That is why this is still a crisis as opposed to an issue that can be dealt with through routine government action. I will go into the history of that in a few minutes

Grain growers, who comprise corn, soybean, durum, grain and canola, estimate that the grains and oilseed impact is at least $2 billion this year. The Saskatchewan party has been out front on these issues. It has indicated that there will be as much as $770 million worth of hurt in Saskatchewan alone. I note that the provincial agriculture minister has talked about needing $200 million in additional federal funding just for the crop insurance program.

I referred to how the government dealt with safety net programs over the years. I recall that back in 1998, during September, October, November and part of December, the government and agricultural minister said that the safety net programs were sufficient. At that time, there was the crop insurance program, the NISA program, along with the companion programs. All the agriculture industry, including myself, the opposition members and the farmers were saying that those safety net programs would not be sufficient to deal with the crisis.

When the hog market fell out in those years, the government began to move and brought in the Agriculture Income Disaster Assistance, AIDA. That program worked pretty well for the hog producers, but it left out the massive problem with the grain and oilseed sector. To this day that has still not been addressed. The alfalfa dehydrators were also left out of that program. Again, this impacted not only farm families, it also impacted on the towns and communities in which they were located.

The Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food produced a report in December 1999, after hearing from farmers about the income crisis and the effectiveness of the safety net programs. The reason that it had to be studied again by the standing committee, even though the AIDA program was already in place and operating, was the farmers found that the program was a disaster and did not address the needs. We had a deficient program in place.

In February 2000 the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Agri-food presented a report to the House and the government. There were seven recommendations from the chair of that committee and the Liberal members, including eight recommendations from the official opposition.

Which of the recommendations has the government actually implemented? Has it made the AIDA program efficient and effective so that it will work for this massive drought? That will be addressed under the Canadian farm income program, which is the replacement for AIDA. I look forward to the minister substantiating that it is an effective program and that it will work well.

Bob Friesen of the Canadian Federation of Agriculture, Kevin Maxlow of the Grain Growers of Canada and many other farm organizations have said that the CFIP program does not address the needs of the grain and oilseeds sectors. As a result we have massive problems.

The cattle industry's has had to sell its livestock twice in one year because farmers do not have the feed to carry those calves over the winter, which they normally would do. The minister has to look at extending the one year tax deferral to a two or three year deferral as required.

We need to address this issue now because climatologists have indicated that the drought, which has been in place in southern Alberta and Saskatchewan for at least two years, could well continue on for another two or three years. We have to have effective safety net programs and other government programs in place to take care of this.

Other members will speak extensively about solutions to this. Many of the solutions are not direct subsidies by the government. Rather, our members will deal with grain transportation which should be modernized. It is still highly regulated with most of the control within the Canadian Wheat Board.

We also have the issue of the Canadian Wheat Board and farmers not being allowed to market their own grain. In Ontario farmers market their grain. In Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta we are treated like little children. We are not allowed to market our grain.

Therefore, in addition to the farmers' request for an actual cash subsidy, I am advancing from the Canadian Alliance Party that many other things could be done by the government to help these farmers through this crisis and to help all of Canada, including those in small towns.

[Lyle Vanclief, Liberal, Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food]

Madam Chairman, I thank the House for the opportunity to make some comments. Unfortunately I will not be able to remain for all of the debate, but I can tell members that I have staff and other members who will be monitoring the debate. I look forward to the comments that will be made by all hon. members today.

The drought situation is almost over in Canada. However the hon. member pointed out there are some predictions that some areas may continue in a drought situation. This has been one of the most severe drought situations on a coast to coast basis that Canada has had for many decades. It has seriously affected the income of many producers, but its severity has been markedly different in other parts of the country.

Southern Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island have all been hit by the drought. The drought was not as prevalent the further we go east in Saskatchewan as it was in the western part of the province. I am not making light of the severity when I mention this, but I spoke to one producer this week from eastern Saskatchewan who said that he had better than average crops this year.

As members are aware, I am from Prince Edward County which is halfway between Ottawa and Toronto. If members look in the drought package I sent out last week they will see one orange spot in the province of Ontario. This orange spot represents the area that has received the least moisture, and that happens to be my riding. The same riding that was the coldest and wettest in Ontario last year is the driest and the hottest this year.

There were also drought areas in British Columbia, Quebec and Newfoundland. The main concern in the province of Manitoba was that there was too much water. In some areas of the country there were above normal crops.

Since agriculture is without question the single most important industry in Canada it deserves and demands as many protective measures as we can collectively put in place as individual producers, as industry sectors, as provincial governments and as the federal government to do all we can when Mother Nature takes the upper hand.

There are a number of safety net measures and programs in place to help alleviate losses. I repeat again there is nothing as good as a good crop and a good price. However we need to work as hard as we possibly can to get to that point.

The government will continue to monitor the situation. All of the harvest is not lost. I know if I say that some people will say they know a producer who did not have anything to harvest. That unfortunately is the situation with the individual, and we recognize that.

Over the last few years we have worked in conjunction with the industry and the provinces to make our programs as flexible as they possibly can be to help farmers manage these situations. The system is more flexible compared to what it was a few years ago.

I do not need to go into the reasons for putting our fiscal house in order. Where would we be today if we were still running a $42 billion a year deficit? Any action that we have been able to take in the past and even consider for the future would simply not be in the cards. As a result of unfortunate incidents in the last couple of weeks we may have expenditures in that area as well.

As a result of an agreement with my provincial colleagues a couple of summers ago, $5.5 billion is available in safety nets over three years. That includes the period that I call crop year 2002 for such programs as crop insurance, the net income stabilization account, the Canadian farm income program and fall cash advances, to name a few.

We will continue to monitor what we have done. Over the last year or so we have made the availability of NISA accounts much more flexible for producers. Producers asked for this and we were able to react to that. If producers were to ask for an interim withdrawal right now, we can assure them that they would have money in their hands in 30 days.

I know the hon. member made some valid points regarding the Canadian farm income program. It is more effective and has proven to be more effective for livestock or a situation where the returns in the market have been fairly high and then dropped off the table.

In reference to Saskatchewan, I must remind the hon. member that the AIDA and CFIP have put hundreds of millions of dollars into that province. Would we like to put more money in all of the provinces? Yes.

The province of Saskatchewan received considerable more money than any other province. Did all provinces get sufficient money from that to make them as economically sustainable as they would like to be? I understand that may not have been the case.

Tens of thousands of farmers received support. Applications are now being accepted for the CFIP 2001 crop business year. These are interim applications. I have seen the form which is very simple and can be filled out very quickly. We can turn those around in 30 days.

I am pleased that more farmers who have crops on more acreage are covered with crop insurance this year than ever before. I am however disappointed that more farmers do not buy crop insurance. I understand that some farmers have made the business decision to take the risk on their own. For whatever reason, they were not totally happy with the insurance program for their commodity, or whatever it was, and chose to take that risk on their own.

Our estimates of a couple of months ago, before the severity of the drought continued, were that crop insurance payments to farmers this year would probably be between at least $1.1 billion and $1.4 billion. The average over the last five years has been less than a third of that.

The farmers, the provincial governments and the federal government make contributions to the premiums. When one deducts the total contributions to the premiums of about $200 million from the $1.1 billion to $1.4 billion, it still indicates our estimate of the crop insurance payments we will be providing to farmers this year which will probably exceed $1 billion.

In the province of Saskatchewan alone it is estimated that farm income will be down to about $700 plus million. It is estimated that crop insurance in Saskatchewan this year will likely provide to farmers somewhere between $500 million to $800 million in crop insurance payments.

The programs are there. Could crop insurance be better? We had discussions with ministers and members of the industry in the west as I toured western Canada this summer. We will work with them to strengthen those programs to make them more enticing to producers so that their best business decision is to buy rather than not to buy. I think that is important.

When we put all of this together our estimate of the federal and provincial government program payments to farmers this year for crop insurance will be at least $4 billion. We anticipate farmers will draw from NISA, which is not the only eligible program; the Canadian farm income program; and other programs. These are moneys they will not have to pay back.

We will continue to work with the industry as we did with the federal-provincial ministers this summer in a number of areas: food safety, environment, renewable skills training, innovation and technology, and certainly trade issues. We will spend a critical amount of effort to strengthen and improve the safety net programs so that they work the best they can. The industry and all members have my pledge to continue working in that direction.

[Rick Casson, Canadian Alliance, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Chairman, I rise on a point of order. I wonder if there would be unanimous consent, and I do not know if this can be done in committee of the whole, for the minister to have a few more minutes to allow him to complete his remarks.

[The Assistant Deputy Chairman]

Is there unanimous consent?