Debates of Oct. 3rd, 2002

Resumption of Debate on Address in Reply

[Reed Elley, Canadian Alliance, Nanaimo—Cowichan, BC]

Madam Speaker, you are very benevolent.

Of course I feel exactly the same way as my hon. colleague from Prince George--Bulkley Valley. It seems like the government's attempt to do something about the ethics problem within its own party and within its own government is simply setting up some kind of a two tiered preferential system whereby those who might have the most ability to be caught in this thing will get off scot-free and those people who perhaps do not have the opportunity to be involved in any kind of corruption will be the ones who will be under greater scrutiny. Somehow that just does not make sense. It is two tiered ethics.

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

I do not think I am driven by benevolence but just by generosity of spirit to all members.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence]

Madam Speaker, I want to compliment you on your hard work and the way you have balanced the debate in the House, allowing everyone to get their questions in. I look forward to your continued good counsel.

Earlier I said that I would not be splitting my time, but I am now because the member for Burin--St. George's has indicated that he would like to take part in this debate. I certainly welcome his wise counsel from that wonderful province known as the rock and will look forward to that.

I have listened to the speeches of the opposition and I hope the government is taking notice of them. There have been some suggestions at which we as a government certainly have to look and I hope the government will look at them. However I remind the opposition that the Speech from the Throne is a blueprint. It is not something cast in stone. It is not something that is legislative. It is something from which legislation will flow. Ministers will introduce legislation in conjunction with the blueprint that is laid out by the Speech from the Throne.

This is an opportunity for Parliament to restart, to rethink, to regenerate, to bring forward ideas and hopefully to go forward on a plan that includes the Canada we want. It is fair to say that we all want a better Canada. That is why we are here and that is why we take part in debate in the House.

That is why when I read the Speech from the Throne and I listened to the Prime Minister's speech, I was looking for certain signals that affect my riding of Haliburton--Victoria--Brock. I think of health care as being right at the top. The words were “to put in place the health care system we need and want”. I am not waiting for the Romanow commission. I do not think that will be any magic bullet. I think we all know what the problem is. The provinces claim that the federal government puts in 14¢ and the federal government claims it puts in 40¢ on every dollar. I want to know from where exactly those numbers come and from where they flow. I would like to know that our health care system will be continued.

My riding is the second largest riding in southern Ontario. The member for Wild Rose came to the Lindsay fair this year. He added some joviality to the situation. I think he had a good time and hope he comes back. It is a great place to be.

Local citizens went out and raised $6 million to build the new hospital. In fact the Lindsay fair board gave up five acres of land and will now move so that the hospital can be there.

In the survey I did in my riding, health care is the number one issue. Maybe it is because of people like Drew Gunsolus who was the chair of the committee and also the citizen of the year for going out and raising $6 million. Obviously our number one item is to ensure that we have a regional hospital in an area which is desperately in need of it. I have used the hospital many times. I was born there, as were the rest of the people in my family, including my wife. We have a great affinity to health care. If that is in fact the government's number one priority, then we owe it to ourselves to act on the recommendations that will flow from the Romanow commission. Health care to me was, is and will be something that is our number one item.

We then talked about getting Canada's children off welfare. This is an area that reaches very deeply into the heart of our society. We are dealing with poverty and homelessness.

In my riding there is an organization that is trying to get funding right now. It is called “A Place Called Home”. It provides facilities for people who, for one reason or another, have no place to go or no place to live, whether it be from poverty, abuse, down on their luck or whatever. I do not think anyone wants to be on welfare. I do not think anyone would like to think that their children can survive on welfare.

Welfare is a trap. If a person gets on to welfare, it is hard to get off. It is hard for people to get a job if they are on welfare. If people have jobs, it is easy to get other jobs. When people work and have contacts with other people who work, then they can improve and lift themselves up. When people cannot afford the clothes needed for an interview or the nutrition needed in order to be healthy, then it becomes a trap, a trap that is very hard to escape.

I think those two items in the throne speech will lead to action in a budget speech.

Do we have to wait for the budget for legislation to be introduced? I would hope not. I would hope that from the throne speech, as we talk to ministers and give them our input that they will act on that and bring forth legislation.

As the House starts this new session, I am very hopeful but I am also very apprehensive. I want to see the legislation. I want to talk on it from the prospect of rural Canada and from the prospect of Haliburton--Victoria--Brock which has, as I said has 44 municipalities, 24 Santa Claus parades, 18 cenotaph services and three area codes. It is a large area to cover.

Some people think of Ontario, particularly southern Ontario, as being very wealthy. I can tell the House that the county of Haliburton it is not a rich county. It needs every cent it can get of government to ensure that it has the same services as other places.

We find this throughout northern Ontario, in the areas surrounding Sudbury and North Bay. They have nothing different than what we have in southern Ontario. We have to look at this area and know that we do not have the economic advantages of Toronto, yet we want Toronto to be healthy and vibrant and to be a city that thrives. We want Montreal and Vancouver to be the same because when they are healthy our whole economy is healthy.

I was at the Shearwater air show this year. The member for that area was very kind to me and showed me around. He introduced me to all 20 of his supporters, and we had a great time.

I have looked also at the other items in the throne speech. The ratification of the Kyoto accord to me is very important. I have already signed on to the fact that I want the accord ratified. We have to do that for the good of the earth and the good of our children.

I have looked at the throne speech from the vast agricultural riding that I represent. We have grains and oilseeds. We have 450 dairy farms. The task force of the member for Haldimand—Norfolk—Brant was excellent. It laid a good groundwork for agricultural policy for Canada. I think the Prime Minister has looked at that.

We have to ensure that the NISA programs through agriculture are fair and that they reach everyone. I am looking with great hope toward legislation coming forward from this blueprint. This is not a document that has a bunch of numbers in it. Those numbers will come with the legislation.

[Myron Thompson, Canadian Alliance, Wild Rose, AB]

Madam Speaker, it was nice to be in his riding and at the county fair. I even found about 15 people that knew who he was and supported him as well. That was rather interesting because the county fair, as he knows, attracts several thousands of people and I had lots of conversations with lots of people.

When I was at the fair, I went to the farmer's market and visited with all the people who had brought exhibits. I had chats with different groups of individuals. I will ask him about three questions and I want him to make a note of them because I want an answer to every one of them.

When he visits the farmers in his constituency, how does he respond to them when in the throne speech there was one little sentence about agriculture? In my view and in the view of my constituents in my riding farming is the most important industry in the country. Does he not feel the same way and why does he not listen to what is happening with them? Why is he not talking to them about that?

Is he aware that a high majority of the people who I talk to absolutely oppose the idea of ratifying Kyoto? Yet he votes in the House of Commons.

Does he know that by the end of this month in Alberta there will probably be 14, 15 or 16 farmers who will be thrown in jail for the terrible crime of selling their grain across the border? A lot of farmers at that fair, questioned me as to why they would be thrown in jail because they broke the law of the Wheat Board, which applies to the west. Three countries do not allow their farmers to sell their own produce when it comes to wheat and barley. They are communist China, communist North Korea and western Canada. Farmers are wondering why in the world their producers are being put in that position. I have to inform them it is because their member, along with the Liberal Party, voted to keep it as it is.

What does say to these farmers about the total inconsistency from the Ontario-Manitoba border east where farmers can do as they wish with their produce, but from the Ontario-Manitoba border west they cannot? I am really curious as to how he responds to those people who do not understand what is going on.

[John O'Reilly, Liberal, Haliburton—Victoria—Brock, ON]

Madam Speaker, I know he bought a lot of stuff at the farmer's market, which helps our economy.

I do talk to farmers. In fact whenever there is a farm meeting called, I try to be at it. That is my obligation. As I said, there are 450 dairy farms in my riding. There are chicken feather groups, beef, hogs, grains and oilseeds. As we know, grains and oilseeds have taken a terrible beating on the market. Right now they are at the lowest price that they have ever been. It costs more to put them in the ground than what they get out of them. Grains and oilseeds did take a beating.

Also, I think the farmers that I talk to tell me they want fairness. They want to ensure that if Kyoto is ratified that it does not cost jobs. I am interested in that too, but I am also interested in the future of our country. I did a survey in my riding. Of the letters that have come into my constituency, 90% in favour of ratification of Kyoto. I am sure the member met people who wanted to hear his views and agreed with him.

As far as how I can counsel people who break the law, we have a law in the country. Obviously, Ontario is not in the Wheat Board and it is doing very well. Yet we have farmers who decide to go outside the law. I cannot counsel people to break the law. I do not know how anyone can do that. If we come to the House as lawmakers and then decide we do not like a particular part of the law or that it does not work for us, I cannot counsel someone to break the law. I do not want them to go to jail any more than anyone does.

I am a gun owner. I have even had the odd deer die in front of me at a camp. The fact of the matter is that I have to register my guns now because it is the law. Therefore, I will not counsel people to break the law. I will counsel people to keep the law of Canada.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Parliamentary Secretary to the President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada and Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs]

Madam Speaker, I want to congratulate all those who have taken part in the debate, particularly the mover and seconder of the address in reply to the Speech from the Throne.

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh.

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Burin—St. George's, NL]

Madam Speaker, I listened very intently to the hon. member for Wild Rose so I would expect that he would show respect in the House and listen to what other people have to say. I know that may be very difficult, and if he did listen perhaps he would not understand it.

The throne speech has caused a lot of attention in the country. We are at five balanced budgets since coming to office and are now on track to our sixth after about 30 years of successive deficits. I think that is quite a remarkable feat. Having said that, let me say that there is no doubt that Canadians from coast to coast to coast have shared in that feat. It has not just been the feat of the Government of Canada. There have been a lot of sacrifices made in all parts of the country and particularly in certain sectors of the country. I want to commend Canadians for contributing and helping to bring the country into fiscal stability, which it has not had for a long time.

The throne speech mentions health care, and I think all of us who sit in the House representing various ridings and regions of the country know that health care is of huge concern to all of us and to all Canadians. Once again, the throne speech commits to further investment in health care. We are waiting for the Romanow report and of course after that the Prime Minister is committed to holding a first ministers conference on the report. Of course we all look forward to the report and to the first ministers conference. Then, and most important, we look forward to government addressing the recommendations of the report and the further investment in health care which we all need so badly. As well, the throne speech mentions commitments to infrastructure, roads and transit, and housing. Again, of course we talk about families and children.

Just a few days ago in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, in a community in my riding, I attended a hearing of a royal commission that the Premier of Newfoundland and Labrador has established. It is a royal commission that will be holding some 23 hearings around the province. It is about strengthening Newfoundland and Labrador's place in Canada.

I attended the hearing in the community of Harbour Breton, which some colleagues, particularly on this side, know of, but I also know that my friend from the NDP has been there with me as a member of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. It is still pretty much a vibrant town.

About 100 people came out to the royal commission hearing. At the outset of the hearing they were asked to identify, list and priorize their top five concerns. They were asked to tabulate them, write them on a piece of paper, and pass them in. Then there was a tabulation to see what were the top three priorities of the people as concerns for their region. It was quite interesting. No surprise to Newfoundlanders and Labradorians or to anyone such as fisheries critics from other parties and members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, the number one concern of those people gathered in the hall that night was the state of the fishery and the need for the Government of Canada to pursue custodial management over the nose and tail of the Grand Banks and the Flemish Cap.

Anyone who is familiar with the riding that I represent in Newfoundland and Labrador would not be surprised that this issue was the number one concern for those people. It was interesting to hear the people participate, to hear what they had to say about it all. There are dire consequences for Atlantic Canada, not just Newfoundland and Labrador, because since the moratorium on groundfish stocks, the cod stocks, was established in 1992 people have been anticipating that our stocks would have been regenerated and rejuvenated by now and people would be making better income from harvesting and processing of fish, but it has not happened. All along that great coast of Newfoundland and Labrador people are still hurting very badly. I want to raise that because the throne speech gives us an opportunity to talk about our ridings and the issues and concerns.

The number two concern was the state of the fishery. Everything throughout that riding is totally dependent on income from fishing and from processing fish.

Another topic which is of concern to the people of my riding and to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador and other provinces is the current equalization program established by the federal government in consultation and concert with the provincial governments.

Here is what irks the people of Newfoundland and Labrador. We have the Hibernia offshore field, White Rose and Terra Nova, and a deal has just been signed to develop Voisey's Bay in Labrador. It looks like a deal is imminent with Quebec on another power project in Labrador. But because of increased revenues that will accrue to the province, of course, there is a clawback provision as a result. Consequently it is very difficult for provinces like Newfoundland and Labrador to get ahead. There is great concern in the province about the current equalization program. There is concern about how we can somehow address that concern so that the people of the province will be better off in the long term. It is a big concern for us.

Also, I just want to say that even though in Newfoundland and Labrador we have a very vibrant offshore oil and gas industry and good mining and forestry industries, the number one industry in Newfoundland and Labrador today, as it always has been and always will be, is our fishing industry. It will always be so because all the other industries we are talking about come from non-renewable resources. Once they run out it is over, but our renewable fish resources, if they are managed properly, should be there to provide for us forever.

These were some of the things that I wanted to talk about today in this Speech from the Throne debate. As we sit here week in and week out and hear members from all sides of the House speak about issues of concern to them, it is so very interesting to realize just how diverse this great country of ours really is. What is most interesting to me is to identify with the issues that are of concern to different regions of this country, for what is so very important to the people I represent in Newfoundland and Labrador is so different from what concerns people in the west. I have just heard an hon. member talk about the Wheat Board and the problems it is causing for the people he represents. Another member opposite talked about the salmon stocks in B.C. and some problems inherent in that. As a member of Parliament, it is quite interesting to listen to the different concerns but yet these concerns still mean as much to the people I represent as they mean to the people those members represent.

[Dick Harris, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Madam Speaker, I listened with interest to the Liberal-Tory member; I am not sure exactly what he is. He talked about five years of balanced budgets. Those balanced budgets were created from six years of the highest tax increases in the history of any government. That is how the government balanced the budget: on the backs of Canadians. Now, although the Liberals will not admit it, they are preparing for probably the biggest tax grab in the history of Canada and that is the Kyoto issue.

Kyoto will raise the base price of every drop of oil or gas produced in this country. It will raise the base price of manufactured products in this country. It will raise the base price of every product or service remotely connected to the Kyoto protocol. Guess what? To all these price increases will be added the GST and it will create a windfall, a GST windfall as a result of the implementation of Kyoto. That is what is behind this Kyoto march. It has nothing to do with the environment. It is all about the Liberal government's insatiable appetite for taxes. It is going to try to tax Canadians by stealth through the Kyoto protocol. Will it not just simply admit its real agenda behind Kyoto?

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Burin—St. George's, NL]

Madam Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his comment and his question, but it seems that some of the members in the official opposition have great difficulty in not being nasty. They want to be nasty about everything. They cannot bring civility to debate. They get up and call me different things, one of those members who probably came here when it was called Reform, and then I think it was Canadian Alliance and then the CCRAP party. I do not want to get down into that. I would rather stick to the issues.

With the great downturn in the North American and world economies, everyone in Canada knows that one of the reasons why the Canadian economy has done so well is the government's action in tax reduction. It has put more money into the pockets of Canadians. That is why our economy has outperformed the U.S. economy. When we compare the Canadian economy with those of the rest of the G-7 we are so far ahead because of the actions of the government. The government has consistently reduced taxes. It has put more money into the pockets of Canadians who spend and drive the engine of the economy of the country.

For the hon. member to stand here today and somehow expect Canadians or particularly anyone in the House to believe that the government has been on a tax increase program is totally unacceptable. It is definitely not true and all hon. members know it. The government has been on a tax reduction program for years. It is why today the economy of the country is as strong as it is and it is why Canadians are doing so well, as they are.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Burin—St. George's knows very well that it was this government that imposed the airline security tax of $24, taking from air travellers millions and millions of dollars.

My question for the hon. member is about the following. The disability tax credit change by the government is one of the most reprehensible things the government has ever done to the most vulnerable people in our society. We are taking away an average of $600 per disability tax credit claim from the most vulnerable in our society, people who left their legs over in France during the war, people who are severely disabled. The government, through the finance minister, is changing the definition of feeding and clothing oneself. I would hope that the hon. member, who represents his constituents and does a good job, does not support that finance minister in these changes.

What is the hon. member prepared to do to stop this cruel punishment of the most vulnerable in our society?

[Bill Matthews, Liberal, Burin—St. George's, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the hon. member for his comment and his question. It is a question on an issue that I am sure concerns every member of the House. It has been an issue for quite a while with many of us because it has been brought to our attention by people who are being directly affected in a negative way, the most vulnerable people in society. That is who they are.

I can tell the hon. member that like many members, particularly on this side of the House, and I am sure on the other side as well, we have brought this issue to the forefront for discussions with the Minister of Finance, in front of the Prime Minister and in front of the national caucus. I am hoping that the matter will be resolved as it should be resolved.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that I will be sharing my time with the hon. member for Terrebonne—Blainville.

A response to such a Speech from the Throne is, ironically, both too long and too short. We only get ten minutes. Ten minutes to criticize what was absent from the speech. That is not much time. This Speech from the Throne made no reference to the fiscal imbalance between Ottawa and the provinces, particularly Quebec.

The speech contained nothing on Quebec's demands regarding parental leave, an issue that has been ignored for many years. There is nothing in terms of changes and improvements to employment insurance. A number of Liberal ministers made promises to that effect during the 2000 election campaign. There was no mention of a plan to help the softwood lumber industry and its workers.

Ironically, as I said, ten minutes is not nearly enough time to talk about all that is missing from this Speech from the Throne. However, ten minutes is too much time to talk about what was in the Speech from the Throne. Basically, let us be honest, it is a condensed and rehashed version of what the federal Liberals have been serving since 1993, since their infamous red book.

It is a wish list that they were never prepared to act on. Still today, the speech reminds us that we must fight against child poverty. For nine years, the Liberals have had the opportunity, through all sorts of measures that come under their jurisdiction, to fight child poverty, and they did nothing.

The speech mentions how health is a priority. We know that the government now pays only 14% of health care costs in Quebec, and in all of the provinces. In recent days, we have seen newspaper ads in Canada and Quebec paid for by all of the provinces and territories, reminding us of this fact. There is consensus among the provinces and territories on this. The consensus within Quebec is very strong. All three parties in the National Assembly support the position outlined in the Séguin commission's report. In the end, other than paying lip service to the fact that the health of Canadians and Quebeckers is a priority of the government, there are no real measures to improve the situation in health care.

Overall, I have come to realize in my time in this House that there is a rather simple formula that could be applied to the way the current Prime Minister of Canada functions, or to his heritage. The federal Liberals' slogan could well be “Signal left, then turn right”. Theirs are extremely conservative policies with a focus on empire-building, a vision I might call arrogant as far as part of the population and some of the provinces of Canada are concerned. It is always extremely centralist and lacking in transparency. I have quickly listed 16 areas of encroachment into areas of Quebec and provincial jurisdiction. Once again, this is a just a wish list.

Imagine, when the policies are truly known, what attacks will be launched on Quebec once again. I think the label for the present Prime Minister's era will be the era of confrontation. There is nothing in the throne speech, nothing in the speeches by his presumed successor and former finance minister to suggest anything new with the federal Liberals in the medium or long term.

Now that I am the finance critic, I will try to concentrate on that area, so I will give as an example, from page 10 of the Speech from the Throne.

The government will work with all participants to ensure that Canada has the modern and efficient securities regulatory system it needs.

This very day, the Minister of Finance has announced the appointment of Harold MacKay as his special representative to advise on Canadian securities regulation.

The main problem is that, according to the Canadian Constitution, securities regulation is a provincial responsibility. What is the federal government doing announcing the appointment today of a special advisor on Canadian securities regulation when this is absolutely not under its jurisdiction?

It will tell me that some people in Canada, especially Ontario, are pushing for this idea of a federal securities regulation agency. The president of the Ontario Securities Commission says that it would be a good idea to have a Canada-wide federal agency to look after securities, although this is not a federal jurisdiction.

The idea is to have this federal agency's head office in Toronto and to once again give Toronto a leg up as the financial centre for all of Canada, to the detriment of Montreal in particular, as well as Vancouver. We are not stupid.

Behind this initiative, which addresses a real concern of small shareholders, who were cheated by some less than scrupulous directors of large companies, the federal government is taking advantage of this concern to further centralize in an area outside its jurisdiction. It is doing this to the detriment of Montreal and the Quebec financial market.

We must be very clear about this. As Quebec's Minister of Finance, Pauline Marois, has said repeatedly, we are not unwilling to harmonize securities regulations, but we want to take into account the regional reality of financial markets.

In Quebec, for example, we have the Civil Code. Like it or not, the federal government will have to take into account the reality in Quebec, which is that we operate under the Civil Code and not the common law.

Why have a Canada-wide agency, which will still have to take into account Quebec's distinct character? If it does not, it will be ineffective and will not meet the needs of small shareholders and investors.

Furthermore, a Canada-wide agency will make the process more cumbersome. We know how bureaucratized this government is and we know that the entire federal administration is extremely slow. The Government of Quebec has led the way after the financial fiascos in the United States, the Enron scandal in particular. Right now, it has a parliamentary committee considering Bill 107, which will create new offences and impose tougher penalties on the directors of companies which falsify their financial statements.

Quebec has been able, within its existing jurisdiction, to react rapidly to a situation which demanded action.

In the Speech from the Throne, and the Minister of Justice repeated this during oral question period, issues are being reviewed to see whether some legislative amendments are required. The government talks about ways to strengthen their implementation. It is still looking at what should be done, while in Quebec we have already dealt with all the problems resulting from the scandals in the United States.

If the federal government wants to do something, it can take action in its own jurisdiction. The Bloc Quebecois proposed a number of measures, including creating a new offence for insider trading. The penalty for this offence could be a 10-year jail term. Under this offence, business executives would be prohibited from using confidential information for personal gain. Such an offence does not exist in the Criminal Code. We could create one.

A new offence could be created for securities fraud. This offence, which would be patterned on the measures adopted in the United States, could carry a 10-year jail term. It would prohibit fraud when selling or buying securities. Such a measure comes under federal jurisdiction. The government could also amend the offence relating to the falsification of books and documents under section 397 of the Criminal Code, to specifically target the falsification of financial statements. The penalties provided under section 397 of the Criminal Code could be increased from five to ten years.

These are issues that the federal government should tackle, because it has the constitutional legitimacy to do so.

But the federal government is not interested in doing that. It is interested in increasing its powers. It wants to do so at the expense of Quebec but, unfortunately, it also does it at the expense of the other provinces.

Let us hope that, in the rest of Canada, people will begin to realize that ,behind all these policies, there is a philosophy that is in sharp contrast with the philosophy that led to the creation of Canada.

Personally, I do not think that this system can be corrected. This is why I believe that this Speech from the Throne is further evidence that the federal government is denying the existence of a fiscal imbalance and that Quebec sovereignty is the only way for Quebeckers to achieve their full potential.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I enjoy listening to the member. He is very eloquent and I have listened to him over a number of years.

I would like to ask him a question about the part of the Speech from the Throne that dealt with access to colleges, CEGEPs and universities, including the province of Quebec.

All the provincial governments have cut spending on post-secondary education. It is not just the province of Quebec but every province has, and Quebec less than many of the others. The Speech from the Throne mentions that the federal government has begun to support the indirect costs of research in colleges and universities. That has been well received in Quebec because of the way infrastructure programs in the colleges and universities have been cut.

However the Speech from the Throne talked about access to university and college and the province of Quebec is to be complimented on the fact that throughout these cuts it has kept tuition fees at the lowest in Canada. Young Quebeckers can now go to college and university at a much lower price, about one-third of the cost of going to school in Ontario.

The Speech from the Throne mentions specifically that the federal government will try to do something to improve access to post-secondary education. Does the member have any ideas as to how the federal government should best proceed to help the government of Quebec, which has already kept tuition fees down, to improve access to post-secondary education in Canada?

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. member for his question, because I believe that the points that he raises are very important indeed. While standing in for a colleague of mine, I attended meetings of the Standing Committee on Industry, Sciences and Technology where we heard testimony from universities, particularly from the Maritime provinces, complaining about the lack of grants to cover the indirect costs of research. So there is a real problem from that perspective. We are being told there will be a solution, and we will see what the government comes up with.

However, I think that the best way for the federal government to respect provincial jurisdiction and Canada's constitution would be to increase the transfers, the Canada Health and Social Transfer. Or better yet, given the surplus that has been accumulated in recent years and that is expected in the coming years—I am referring here to the Conference Board study that was conducted for the provinces—the federal government could withdraw completely from part of the tax field in order to allow the provinces to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities.

We will recall that the federal government only contributes eight cents of every dollar spent in education. This is true for Quebec, but it is also true for the other provinces. So, I think that it should be one of these two approaches: either increase the transfers to the provinces, or withdraw from the tax field. The Séguin commission proposed a withdrawal from the goods and services tax field, for example, to correct the fiscal imbalance.

I will close by reminding the House of one thing. The issue of fiscal imbalance is about more than finances. It is about democracy. When the provinces no longer have the means to fulfill their constitutional responsibilities, it becomes difficult for them to remain autonomous in terms of policy, and they lose their accountability to their citizens when it comes to the policy choices that they make. Personally, I believe that we could do it, if there was a real will to correct the current federal shortcomings. We have the means to do so, but, as I indicated, I think that the political will to correct existing imbalances has been dead for many years in Canada.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

88Mr. Speaker, it is my turn to have an opportunity to express my views on the Speech from the Throne. As you are no doubt aware, I am the Bloc Quebecois critic on the status of women. As such, I will try to reflect the concerns of the women of Canada and of Quebec in my speech. The throne speech we have been treated to has added nothing new, as a number of my colleagues have already pointed out in the past few days.

I would go still further: in this political last will and testament, the government is perpetuating the social disparities and social exclusion affecting the majority of the population, that is women.

Behind all the empty promises, it is impossible to detect any real commitment by the federal government. Worse still, this speech is indicative of the government's total lack of concern for women.

The federal government is announcing that it will throw a few crumbs to women, thus continuing to impoverish them, their families and, consequently, their children. Crumbs, because women are the ones most likely to be poor. Ottawa has done nothing to ensure them of fair treatment, economic and social parity.

The women of Quebec and Canada have always shouldered their share of responsibilities and they wish to remind the Prime Minister that federal cuts to transfer payments earmarked for services and activities relating to health, education and social programs have worsened the poverty of women and, as a result, of their children as well.

Women thought it wise to wait for the Prime Minister's clarifications in his speech following the reading of the Speech from the Throne. They were right to do so. There is nothing anywhere indicating any measures aimed at improving women's living conditions; nothing about the demands made by the world march of women; nothing about the interference in areas under Quebec jurisdiction; nothing but an intrusion that will bring more upheaval of which the population will bear the brunt; nothing but a government strategy for bolstering its centralizing power.

Once again, we find that women, who make up more than 50% of the population, are the ones left out of the government leader's political testament. Not only are they cut out of the will, they are totally ignored and frustrated of their right to be given the consideration they deserve. This lack of consideration, this ignoring of their existence, clearly sums up the situation of the women of Quebec and the women of Canada as well.

Battered women often tell us that it is far easier to get over a blow or an insult than to survive being treated with indifference or ignored, as they often are. They also tell us that economic dependency adds to their distress and greatly lessens their chances of escaping from their situation.

However, in its statements, the government has shown that it does not understand the problems women face; it is therefor perpetuating the cycle of violence. Worse, because of their lack of interest for the plight of women in Canada and in Quebec, the Prime Minister and his government are sending a clear message that they are not taking into account the differences and specificities of both women and the provinces.

Yet, in September 2001, the meeting of the federal, provincial and territorial ministers and secretaries of state responsible for the status of women pointed out the commitments and the scope of the investments made by the Quebec government to improve living conditions for women. All the ministers and secretaries of state in Canada showed a great deal of interest in the Quebec's achievements, and they stressed how innovative the measures taken by Quebec in all areas relating to the status of women were.

The ministers and secretaries of state also pledged to strengthen the economic independence of women and to ensure their active participation in the labour market. They also pledged to continue their action, so that tax policies take into account the unpaid work done by natural caregivers. That was one year ago. I should also point out that the concept of parental leave put forward by the federal government was openly criticized, while the one presented by the Quebec government was truly innovative.

Quebec women expected, and this is normal, to find in the federal government's priorities concrete measures to properly deal with the chronic poverty in which they and their children are living. This fine Speech from the Throne does claim that, as a democratic society, we can define our needs and rest assured that they will be met. But who will hear us? And what guarantees do we have that we will get the support and help necessary to get our children out of poverty? There are no such guarantees in this speech.

Women now know that this government does not intend to recognize them and provide them with adequate support. Nothing in this speech guarantees a better quality of life for all women and their families. On the contrary, the government will continue to exclude women, which will have the effect of keeping them poor. Worse still, the government will continue to boldly and contemptuously bring about social disparities, leading to more poverty, including in the middle class, thus dashing the hopes these families have of improving their financial lot and playing an active role in social and community development. Through its indifference and its inability to recognize the particular problems, the government is once again forcing women to shoulder the tax burden of the inadequate and outdated measures it continues to promote.

Women reflect the province they come from. The women of Canada and Quebec are finding fair and intelligent solutions to the many social problems. Over the years, they have built up expertise and innovated with solutions that address the social and economic concerns of all members of the public. They have invested in a social vision, without waiting for the federal government to support them. They have mistakenly believed that, over time, not only would the government recognize their efforts, but that it would ensure adequate and decent funding in order to help them in the fight against poverty, just as Quebec has tried to go beyond the limits imposed by a centralizing federal government which deliberately ignores its distinct character.

The federal government is no more taking into account the demands of women than it is the legitimate demands of Quebec. This is an attitude that defies common sense and logic.

In the coming months, women and the Bloc Quebecois will be looking closely at the motivations and behaviour of a government which is doing nothing to eliminate the poverty of women and which is, on the contrary, continuing by its stubbornness to keep us in poverty. Canadians, like Quebeckers, are entitled to the respect and recognition of the federal government.

It is time that this government took note that there are areas, programs and activities where women are exercising their skills according to the needs of their community and according to the needs of their province.

It is also time that the government stopped interfering in programs under provincial jurisdiction. If it wants to fight poverty, it would make more sense for it to invest in the autonomy of women and the provinces, rather than eradicating a chronic problem across the board, which is of no help.

Children are poor because their mothers are regularly victimized by social injustices caused by the lack of respect for differences and the ignorance of the federal government when it comes to the specific reality of women in Quebec.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, the member has an important critic's portfolio which she takes very seriously. I am pleased that the women of Canada have someone like her in their corner.

Part of the Speech from the Throne that I really liked was under the health care portion. It was the part that dealt with lifestyle, with exercise among children and the general population and the suggestion that we will move in the areas of diet and try to prevent illness as much as we possibly can.

I would like to point out, from the recent report from the first ministers on indicators of health, that the lung cancer mortality rate for women in Canada is still rising. It is almost 35% compared with 27% for the population at large. It points out that the prevalence of smoking among teenagers still continues to be high compared with the rest of the population. It is particularly high among women and first nations.

Would the member have any thoughts about ways in which we could address these lifestyle matters in the population in general but particularly with respect to women and teenage women?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank the members opposite for their questions.

I do not have a personal answer to this type of question, as I am not an expert. What I do know, however, is that there are women's groups in Quebec and probably in the other provinces of Canada that work specifically to improve the living conditions of women.

Indeed, when people are educated, when they have a certain level of education, they are able to stay informed about habits that have a negative impact on their health. Obviously, it is very difficult for a woman to see a male doctor and talk about health issues, just as it is difficult for a man to see a female doctor to discuss his prostate. Let us not fool ourselves. It is normal to be shy about some things.

If we advocate having more women professionals to deal with women, then we will have to invest more money in organizations that will be there to help women. Incidentally, in closing, I would just like to remind the member opposite that during the World March of Women, there were 13 demands that came from one Canadian committee of the World March of Women. Women were asking for money to put an end to violence, obviously, but also for women's centres, sexual assault centres and women's shelters.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga—Maisonneuve, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to make the following request of my colleague from Terrebonne—Blainville. She has clearly indicated that the federal government is not responding to the legitimate demands and aspirations of women's groups.

Would she be so kind as to give us some examples?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I thank my colleague for this opportunity to add a little more information to my speech, or to at least clarify some of my points.

I think there are tow main aspects arising from my colleague's questions. First, there is the aspect of women's demands. I agree that this needs to be discussed and will respond to his question.

There is one aspect that must not be lost sight of, however. If, in the year 2000, women were making demands, and still are—and in fact were making them earlier than that, when one thinks of the Bread and Roses March—what is always involved is getting their children out of poverty and lessening the poverty of families.

What are these women asking for? They are calling for social measures, not only ad hoc ones, but also measures that will provide them with assistance in getting into the work force.

To take the example of the employment insurance program, how can a woman who has had a family, who has not been able to accumulate the number of weeks required, be able to draw employment insurance benefits? I am sorry to say that self-employed workers are not covered by the parental leave program, and more and more women are trying to make ends meet through this type of employment.

I am being told that my time is up; unfortunately, I will not be able to devote any more time to this extremely important response.

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with the member for Kitchener—Waterloo.

We are talking about the Speech from the Throne. It seems to me that what happens is the Prime Minister and the government look across the federal system, across Canada and across the globe where they find certain themes. They boil them down into this relatively short speech which we have been debating now for a number of days. The speech gives us a sort of overview, or blueprint or perhaps a vision of what the government intends to do in the next number of years. That is the nature of the Speech from the Throne.

What happens then in the House is that all members of Parliament take this theme, which is already a concentration and a summary of a great deal of information, and we look in it for large things or small things which interest us greatly.

On this side of the House, for example, we look for nuggets of interest which are of specific interest to us. On the other side, they look for holes in it and they pick the holes. This is not an unhealthy process but we do have to remember that the Speech from the Throne is a whole.

What I would like to do, if it is possible in a short time, is to talk about it a little bit as a whole and then a couple of the nuggets which interest me particularly.

This is a bit like trying to take a folded umbrella and opening it up to see what the main struts are in the umbrella. In this case one of them is, without a doubt, health care. It has been mentioned time and time again by people on all sides.

The government essentially says that the Romanow commission, which we commissioned, will report soon, the government will act pretty quickly with the first ministers and the government has committed, if necessary, federal funds to that process.

As I was just discussing with one of the other members, it also suggests that the government is particularly interested in exercise, lifestyle, diet and other aspects of preventive measures in the health care system. I like that. I like the idea of inoculation programs around the country. I like the idea of dental programs in schools and things of that type.

Another strut of this umbrella is Kyoto and climate change. What has happened, and it is not just this generation but since the industrial revolution, we human beings have steadily poisoned the atmosphere that we breath. The atmosphere is more poisonous now than it was 100, 150 or 200 years ago everywhere: out in the middle of the oceans and on top of the mountains where it is more poisonous. However it is particularly poisonous in the communities where we live. Some 80% of us now live in large cities.

One result, and it is only one, of that poisoning is global warming and the heating up of the atmosphere. The poisons we put into the atmosphere, among other things, are causing it to heat up. Climate deals with that. It deals with the melting of the ice caps, the increase in the level of the oceans and things like that.

Another theme is the cities. I mentioned that 80% of us now live in cities. It also deals with, among other things, homelessness which is something that we have to tackle at this time.

Yet another theme, one of the structural parts of the Speech from the Throne, is national infrastucture. This is a huge country. Transportation is always an endless problem for us all. By the way, at the present time infrastructure related to water, which is part of the atmospheric system that we have poisoned, is a part of the system.

Regarding skills and innovation, I asked a question earlier about access to post-secondary education and research. The increase in grants to the granting councils which fund the research will help us solve many of these problems. The government is committed to increase their funding, and I hope it particularly increases the grants to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council.

Agriculture and the rural areas are also mentioned. In July we flowed $5.2 billion, $600 million of which is going out as we speak, to the rural areas and to our farmers. I am pleased about that. The cities and the rural areas rely on each other. It is not that one is more important than the other. It is that they are linked and both have to be healthy.

Throughout this speech there is an important structural part for the first nations.

The speech talks about Canada and the poorer nations. The Prime Minister looked at our relations with the rest of the world so that there would be no tariffs for goods coming from these poorer nations, to give them a chance to work, sell their products and build themselves up rather than us paying directly. We cannot do that. They have to have self-confidence.

Children are one of the main struts in the health care part, in the exercise piece that I mentioned, as well as in access to education.

Those are the struts. Of course, they are all linked. As I mentioned, it is like an umbrella. For example, health care is linked to Kyoto. Kyoto deals with the poisoned atmosphere. One of the reasons that standards of health are low in various parts of the country has to do with the change in the status of the atmosphere. Health care is linked to the first nations and to the children that I just mentioned. The different parts are linked.

Kyoto, which is one of the struts, is linked to the cities. A lot of the emissions that produce global warming come from the cities. The infrastructure piece is linked to Kyoto. For example, if we in Peterborough can get VIA Rail service instead of people commuting in their cars to and from Toronto, we will improve the atmosphere and contribute to Canada's contribution to the Kyoto accord.

Again, the skills agenda ties in with health care. All these things are linked. The city and the county of Peterborough has a shortage of medical doctors, nurses and skilled technicians. The country at large is short of research scientists. These things are the basis of prosperity. The skills and knowledge piece is tied to health care and health care is tied to skills.

Urban and rural issues are linked the way that I described. In terms of Canada and the other nations, we can never forget that there are 210 or 220 other countries out there and, on moral grounds, we should be thinking of the poorest nations, but also, for our own good, in terms of global security.

There are main thrusts in the Speech from the Throne and links between them all, and we should never lose sight of that.

My point simply is that to pick away at the Speech from the Throne, and it is not an unhealthy exercise to find holes or, for me, to find little tiny things in it and pretend that is all there is in it, is not the way to go. That is the overview.

I would like to refer to two smaller things which are my nuggets, the small things which, like other members, I am interested in. One of them has to do with federal research.

One of the great contributions of the federal government to our whole system is research. For example the support we give farmers includes research in agriculture. The speech states that the government will coordinate and focus the research capacity of the federal government so that it is much more effective than it is now. I urge the federal government to do that. I urge it to start by focusing it on northern research to help our people in the north, which is a very special federal responsibility.

The second one of these small points, given that I do not have more time, is the government's statement that it will create more opportunities for young Canadians to help clean up our environment and assist in achieving Canada's global priorities, particularly Africa. I urge the government to move on that. We had Katimavik some decades ago. We have Katimavik today doing fine work in Canada but not working overseas. It may be that we will not simply put the money into Katimavik but I urge the government to do something to harness the energies of our young people, to help in the environment, to help themselves in Canada and to work overseas to help the poorer nations.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Musquodoboit Valley—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to congratulate the member on his speech and definitely let him know that I agree with him in terms of Katimavik and assisting our young people in helping clean up this planet, not only at home but abroad as well.

While we are talking about helping people, one of the things the government is planning to do--and I am not personally going after the member in this regard but he knows very well what I am about to speak to--is make changes to the disability tax credit.

The throne speech is grand on words. Everybody is supposed to feel so much better about this but the reality is that people in the country with disabilities are being attacked by the policies of the government. The finance minister has proposed changes regarding feeding and clothing oneself and telling people that if they can go 50 metres on a level surface with a device, even if they need to rest along the way, they will no longer qualify for the disability tax credit, which is only $1,000 a year maximum claim. The average claim is only $600. So 106,000 people were sent this notice and thousands more are about to receive it. Under no circumstances was the Canadian Medical Association advised. In fact it has said very clearly that it should be up to the medical profession to determine a disability, not the bureaucrats in Ottawa.

My question to the respected member of the House is, what is he prepared to do to push his government to stop this reprehensible attack on the most vulnerable in our society?

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, like the member, I was pleased that the Speech from the Throne specifically mentioned people with disabilities and, in particular, as he knows, families supporting people with disabilities. My hope is that we will follow through on those matters.

On the matter of the disability tax credit, I think the member exaggerates. When dealing with a group of people who are disabled, it is difficult to examine programs in different government areas, let us say, for veterans and things like that, in terms of efficiency and in terms of getting the best value for the money. I would suggest to the hon. member that the Government of Canada always has to do that. It does not matter how well meaning a program is, a program has to be efficient. If it is not, then the people who need the program will be the ones who suffer most.

As I understand it, the exercise going on at the moment is to say, yes, we must support these people with disabilities, but is the money being allocated in the best possible way. That is the exercise.

I understand that doing that does create great concern among the constituency, and I know the hon. member is responding to that, but I would urge him to wait to see what the outcome will be of the exercise and then see if the program is worse or better. It is my sincere hope that the program will be better once this exercise has been completed.

[David Anderson, Canadian Alliance, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Speaker, I was going to talk about a different issue, and I may get to it, but I guess I am disturbed by the comment the member made about the disability tax credit program.

I agree with my colleague from the NDP, which does not happen very often, but this has been brutal thing for many people to go through. I know examples of people who have been denied that tax credit who will not recover and will not be able to function fully in our society. That is not fair.

As the government goes through this process it needs to be careful in what it is doing, as my hon. colleague said, to the most vulnerable in our society.

I also want to bring up another issue. Softwood lumber has been a big issue in our country over the last year. The only comment made about agriculture in the throne speech had to do with the fact that the government was going to look at trade action regarding softwood and agricultural issues.

I do not know if my colleague knows this, but the North Dakota wheat growers and other organizations are beginning to pursue a trade action against western Canadian farmers. By the end of this week they will be able to make a decision as to whether that action is going to the international trade commission. By November 4 they will be in the situation where they may be able to put sanctions and tariffs of up to 35% to 40% against western Canadian wheat.

The government was not prepared to deal with softwood lumber. It is not prepared to deal with this issue of wheat. Now that my colleague knows about this, what is he prepared to do? Will he work with us and western Canadian farmers to deal with another trade issue that is exploding and one with which government is unprepared to deal?

[Peter Adams, Liberal, Peterborough, ON]

Mr. Speaker, on the first matter, I am surprised that the hon. member would question efforts to make a very caring program accountable.

On accountability, as I have explained, it is very difficult in the case of programs like that to be hard-nosed. It would be the same as when the hon. member picks up on other programs of government and says that the government is not accountable. I am really surprised that he is unwilling to go through that process.

With regard to the people he mentioned, if he could share their files, and he would need their permission to do that, I would be glad to follow through on them with him. However I do believe that it is the responsibility of government to be accountable for the taxpayers' money.

On the second question--