Debates of Feb. 4th, 2002

Minister of National Defence

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, I have been getting some lovely comments, e-mails and telephone calls from members of the Canadian Forces.

The one thing they say quite clearly: is that it is time to focus on the mission they are carrying out abroad. It is time to support our troops, not this kind of garbage.

Foreign Affairs

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, on January 28 the Minister of Foreign Affairs admitted in the House that he had consulted with secretary of state Colin Powell on the treatment of Afghan prisoners. The minister even concluded from this conversation, that, and I quote him “Everyone agrees that the prisoners are being treated according to the humanitarian standards under international law”.

I imagine that in order to have a balanced conversation, the Minister of Foreign Affairs had the same information as Colin Powell; that he knew there were prisoners, as did Colin Powell; that he knew Canada had captured Afghan prisoners.

Exactly when did he learn that Canada had taken prisoners?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, I was travelling last week, as the hon. member opposite is well aware. I was informed in London, after the cabinet meeting, at which my colleagues were also informed.

[Gilles Duceppe, Bloc, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I remind the minister that he was here on January 28. I also remind him that it was a Canadian, Graham Bell, who invented the telephone, which has been around for some time. This may apply to the telephone, it does not necessarily apply to honesty.

He knew there was an ongoing public debate. Colin Powell was of one opinion, and Mr. Rumsfeld was of another, and this minister did not think to call his colleague, the Minister of National Defence, to find out what was going on, since there were divergent opinions among the Americans. He did not think of calling his colleague, the Minister of National Defence, before speaking with Colin Powell, who was fully informed.

Is that what the new minister would have us believe?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Mr. Speaker, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Foreign Affairs are in regular contact with each other in order to serve the interests of Canadians at all times. I myself was only informed of this matter when the Prime Minister was informed. There is nothing suspicious about that.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I am delighted that the Minister of Foreign Affairs is in frequent, regular contact, daily even, with the Department of National Defence.

What I am asking him is merely this. On January 21, when the Minister of National Defence learned that the Canadian Forces had taken prisoners, was the Minister of Foreign Affairs still in regular contact with DND, either he or his deputy minister?

[Bill Graham, Liberal, Minister of Foreign Affairs]

Yes, Mr. Speaker, we were in touch.

[Michel Gauthier, Bloc, Roberval, QC]

Mr. Speaker, I would like to know what kind of contact this was.

Very seriously, how can the Minister of Foreign Affairs claim in the House that he was in frequent, regular, daily contact with DND when Afghan prisoners were taken which is not an everyday occurrence? The Minister of National Defence has known this ever since the 21st, and yet the Minister of Foreign Affairs has just told us today that he learned of it eight days later? What sort of contact was there?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, there is a frequent flow of information that goes to the PCO, the PMO and foreign affairs with respect to the involvement of our troops in the field.

The one exception made to that is the JTF2, the commando group. That just comes to me.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Deputy Prime Minister. We have a right to know who knew what and when without being accused of embarking on a witch hunt. Ultimately whatever civil servants may or may not have known it is the cabinet minister who has to answer for their behaviour, but we cannot ask that cabinet minister to give account for their behaviour unless we know what it was.

Did anybody in the Privy Council Office or the Prime Minister's Office know about the taking of these prisoners before the Prime Minister was informed at the cabinet meeting on the 29th?

[John Manley, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Infrastructure and Crown Corporations]

Mr. Speaker, as indicated earlier we have no information that was the case. However I make the point once again that the answerable person in this case is the Minister of National Defence.

He has given an answer, a full answer, and we expect that he will be subject to further questions. Perhaps the hon. member will have a few when he appears before the committee.

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, it begs the question whether the Deputy Prime Minister is seeking to know whether anybody had that information. He says he has no information, but is he trying to find out? We would like to know that from him, or is ignorance bliss, Mr. Speaker, when you are trying to cover up something that has happened or when you are trying to manage your own internal dissent?

It is really the Liberal backbenchers who were the primary object of this cover-up. They did not want the debate to take place in their caucus because they are divided on the behaviour of their own government.

[John Manley, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Infrastructure and Crown Corporations]

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member tries to make a mountain out of a molehill because the fact is the issue that becomes important to us is how do we deal with anyone who is apprehended in the course of the conflict.

Only in recent days did the issue arise out of comments made in Washington as to how the United States was making the determination, whether a particular apprehendee is being treated as a prisoner of war or as an unlawful combatant.

We have made interventions with respect to that with the United States. This does not represent in any way a division either on the part of this caucus or on the part of Canadians about the role that is being played by Canadians in defence of freedom and against terrorism on the ground in Afghanistan.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, my question is for the acting Prime Minister.

Has the Privy Council Office been kept in the dark as far as JTF2's activities in Afghanistan are concerned?

If so, why? And if not, if it did receive information, when exactly did the PCO receive the report that JTF2 had taken prisoners in Afghanistan, on or before January 21, 2002?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated already, matters with respect to the JTF2 come to me. If there were any variance from the policy I could say that immediately I would be notifying the Prime Minister. There was no variance from the policy. The policy was fully followed.

It is a policy that has been in place for a great number of years. We do not have detention facilities. We turn them over in accordance with the Geneva conventions. That is what was followed.

[Joe Clark, Progressive Conservative, Calgary Centre, AB]

Mr. Speaker, immediately or in eight days? Take a choice. The Deputy Prime Minister told parliament that it would not have made any difference if the Prime Minister had known earlier that taking prisoners was not a hypothetical question.

In a normal government the prime minister must take or approve significant decisions. Having troops in Afghanistan, having them take prisoners, is a significant matter. How can the Prime Minister give direction to our troops or to his government if there is no system to ensure that he knows what is going on?

[John Manley, Liberal, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Infrastructure and Crown Corporations]

Mr. Speaker, of course the Prime Minister knows what is going on. When I say that the difference would not have been made on the ground the hon. member knows perfectly well that our troops were present in Afghanistan, that they were carrying out operations which were important to the overall effort.

They conducted themselves in a professional manner in the way in which they were instructed to do. Nothing that they did required any intervention and censure by their political masters.

Immigration

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Immigration must shed some light on the theft of hundreds of immigration forms. We now know that the government has known about this for two years. Nonetheless, last week, the minister told us that we should not let it worry us.

Will the minister stop playing this political game once and for all, tell us the truth about this situation, and explain how such important documents could have been stolen from his department?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, this is not new information. There have been thefts of documents since 1999. Since then, we have made major changes. Not only have we made a specific official in each international mission responsible for safeguarding documents, but we have also instituted serial numbers.

In the meantime, we have taken action. We have instituted and are introducing a new permanent resident card which will prevent this sort of thing.

Our middle name is action.

[Rahim Jaffer, Canadian Alliance, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Mr. Speaker, last week he called himself the minister for immigration. We learned last week that hundreds of Tunisians, some possibly connected to al-Qaeda, were allowed to disappear into Canada. This week we have learned that blank visa documents have gone missing and that there are no fewer than five ongoing investigations underway.

Will the minister now tell Canadians, is he the minister of missing immigration forms or the minister for missing immigration forms?

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Minister of Citizenship and Immigration]

Mr. Speaker, not only should the member have prepared his question but he should have followed what happened this weekend.

First, not only did I confirm those 118 missing people, but thanks to the member of parliament for Brossard--La Prairie, I met the Tunisian committee and we organized ourselves together. Not only that, we made sure through CSIS and through our embassy in Tunis that we will find them.

The member should follow what we are doing and he will see that something is going on.

Minister of National Defence

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, the Minister of National Defence knew that Canadian soldiers had taken prisoners but the Minister of Foreign Affairs did not.

Why did the Minister of National Defence not see fit to inform the Minister of Foreign Affairs that Canadian soldiers had in fact taken prisoners in Afghanistan, deciding instead to let him talk with the Americans—and not just anyone, but Colin Powell, according to what he said—in complete ignorance of the situation?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, there are a lot of operations that our troops are involved with and will be involved with. There are a lot of things they do every day to help in this campaign against terrorism.

As long as they do it in accordance with policy, the rules of engagement, which are clearly established and clearly in place, following government policy, which they are doing, not everything needs to be instantly reported.

It was done in accordance with policy. That is the important thing.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, Mercier, QC]

Mr. Speaker, one might think that the Canadian position was closer to that of Colin Powell.

When the Minister of National Defence realized that there was a debate in the United States between Defence Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Powell regarding the status of Afghan prisoners, why did he not think of speaking with his colleague, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and pointing out to him that an agreement between Canada and the United States was being called into question and that it would be a good idea to address the problem?

[Art Eggleton, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Mr. Speaker, one has to wonder if the Bloc Quebecois is more concerned about the plight of the terrorists than it was about the victims of September 11. We certainly would not know it from the way they are going at this.