Mr. Speaker, usually we would say that it is with some honour and privilege that we rise on debate in the House. I am not sure that is the case this time. The debate that started last Friday over sending the Minister of National Defence to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs is a very serious debate, and one to which I am sure most members of parliament would like to add a few of their thoughts.
This is a greater issue than the fact that the Minister of National Defence misled the House. That is a serious issue and one we want to look at, but there is a greater issue behind this. It is the question of why the minister misled the House.
I do not think it is any surprise to any members in the House that the government had been fielding questions on the status of prisoners of war who may have been or could be captured in the future by Canadian forces, in particular JTF2 forces in Afghanistan, or by troops of the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry, which were sent over there this past weekend.
The issue surrounding possible capture of prisoners of war has been fielded by the government. Repeatedly it has said it is not an issue, that it has not captured anyone, therefore it does not have to deal with those sticky and messy items, such as the Geneva conventions, which our Canadian forces in the field would want to adhere to the Geneva conventions.
It all boils down to a pretty simple read of the Geneva conventions. Civilized nations follow the rules of the Geneva conventions because they expect their soldiers, if and when captured in battle, to be treated under the same set of rules. This is not a complicated thought process.
However last Wednesday, January 30, was the first time that the Minister of National Defence admitted to the capture of prisoners by Canadian troops on January 20 or January 21. Not only did he admit knowledge of it but he admitted that he knew within 24 hours.
The expansion of the issue becomes the fact that it is inconceivable that the Minister of National Defence would have known that JTF2 troops had captured Taliban fighters or al-Qaeda fighters and not reported that to the Prime Minister for eight, nine or ten days. It is very difficult to believe that the Prime Minister was that far out of the loop. The reasoning behind it again was simply that the government did not want to discuss the issue of treatment of prisoners.
If we look at the chronology of events, on January 29 the Minister of National Defence said to the Speaker at the time:
I first became aware of the possibility on Friday. It required further examination to determine whether in fact Canadians were involved. I informed the Prime Minister and my colleagues in cabinet this morning to that effect.
Apparently he informed the House last. In fact, he even informed the Privy Council and the Prime Minister last . However we are far beyond the point in this debate where I think anyone would think the Prime Minister or the Privy Council did not know prior to January 29 or January 30.
The fact that Canadian troops were put in a foreign battlefield under American command was something with which this government was not comfortable. It was not comfortable with the treatment of prisoners or how to explain that.
During questioning, the minister of defence actually referred to the chief of defence staff being in full control of our troops. It would have been impossible for the top ranking officer, who we obviously believe is in full command of the troops, not to know we had taken prisoners. Being a good military man, I am certain that without question he passed that on to the minister immediately. The minister doing his job, as I expect he should have, passed that on to the Privy Council and the Prime Minister.
The end of the quote by the minister of defence was: “However, at all times the chief of defence staff retains full command over the battle group and the work that it does”. This was in answer to queries about who was actually in charge of our troops in Afghanistan.
It is important to look at the take note debate where again the minister of defence misled the House, after misleading the House for several days, but he was much more careful in his wording because he knew at that time we had taken prisoners and had transferred them to U.S. forces. Yet he only mentioned that we met our obligations when transferring them. He said nothing about what happened once they have been transferred.
He said:
Let me assure members of the House that the Canadian forces will treat detainees in accordance with international law and always fairly and humanely. International law, as reflected in the Geneva conventions, establishes requirements for all detainee states when transferring detainees. The Canadian forces will meet its international legal obligations on transferring detainees.
At the same time, the minister was obviously laying the groundwork to protect himself should the issue of the death penalty for prisoners that we handed over be raised in the future. Clearly he knew then that prisoners had been handed over to the U.S., which has the death penalty. The minister's exact words in his statement were:
They have every right, though, for a tribunal to determine whether in fact they have status as a prisoner of war or have status as an unlawful combatant. Canada stands by that determination process in accordance with international law. International law does not prohibit the use of the death penalty with respect to military tribunals.
We can already see a very uncomfortable minister of defence laying the groundwork to admit to the fact that not only have we handed prisoners of war over to the U.S. but it could well come to be realized that these prisoners would face the death penalty.
There are civilian prisoners languishing in Canadian jails that we will not send to the U.S. because they use the death penalty. It may be a matter of debate whether that is approved of or not, but that is Canadian law.
The minister of defence, in full realization that we had taken prisoners and turned them over to the U.S., was clearly separating some of the fact from the fiction as well as what we would do when we had them and what would happen to them when we turned them over. He said very clearly in the take note debate:
--we will not keep detainees. We do not have detention facilities. None of the other allied forces in Afghanistan do.
I guess he was referring to the fact that the Brits intend to follow the Geneva conventions.
He went on to say:
The only one that has detaining facilities and the capability of taking these people is the United States, but when they are under our jurisdiction or care they will be treated in accordance with the Geneva conventions.
It is interesting to look at some of the other statements that the minister of defence made in the take note debate. He stated:
Canada will not be party to any violations. We intend to abide by international law and abide by Canadian law.
He further said:
We are not about to outsource our moral obligations. With respect to the Geneva conventions, we will be following the Geneva conventions.
I would like to know how? I would like to listen to the logic of that statement.
We have a situation where a member of the House, and may I say an important member of the House, none less than a minister of the government, deliberately misled his fellow MPs when he knew differently. He has admitted that in the House of Commons. We can send this to committee. I realize this is not the place to be judge and jury but the minister of defence fully realizes that is the only door open to him, the only option that he can take to save face.
This is not about blaming this series of events on the Canadian military nor about risking operations in Afghanistan. We have good military men and women on the ground in Afghanistan who will do and have done their job. Without question, the military part of the chain of command is working and fulfilling its obligations. It has passed information on to the people to which it is supposed to pass it on to. There is a weak link in the chain of command. We all know exactly where that weak link is in the chain of command.
The sad fact is that what should have been a story that Canadians could take pride in, that we are pulling our weight and doing something in the fight against terrorism, has turned to further embarrassment over the minister's inept handling of the situation. He has taken away that sense of accomplishment and pride that Canadians should feel when their troops are in the field doing the job that is put in front of them. Instead, he has taken any sense of pride and accomplishment away and turned it into a sense of misgiving toward the government. Certainly there must be some sense of misgiving from the troops in the field toward a government that is supposed to support them.
It is our job as members of parliament to support our troops in the theatre, not to cast aspersion or doubt, particularly in a time of war. This is not casting aspersion or doubt on our troops in the theatre. They have done their job.
The process went up the chain of command. Someone needed to be a scapegoat when it got to the ministerial level and I suspect when it got to the prime ministerial level. They had to admit the truth, that they knew prior to when they said they knew, otherwise it would reflect badly upon the Privy Council and, lo and behold, the Prime Minister. I do not think anyone seriously considered the second option in this case, that somehow the Prime Minister did not know.
I have outlined fairly quickly and concisely the chronology and series of events of how this event unfolded as we understand it in the House. I move:
That the motion be amended by striking out the words “the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs”, and substituting “a special committee of the House, the membership of which will be on the same party ratio as the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs and be elected in each caucus by a secret ballot to be conducted under the direction of the Speaker in a process similar to that used by the House to elect the Speaker.”