Debates of Feb. 5th, 2002

Supply

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I did not muddy the waters with private members' business. The Alliance muddied the waters by putting that particular clause in its motion.

I take the hon. member's point. If there were a genuine moral dilemma and our vote today were going to make the difference between having a national sex offender registry and not, then one would have to consider that. However, we know already that the government is not supporting the motion. The hon. member and the country know that we support the notion of a national sex offender registry. I have said it over and over again today in the House. I said it back on March 13.

It is legitimate for us to point out what we find unacceptable, not just in a kind of collateral way but in an absolute way. We find it procedurally unacceptable that somebody can simply stand in the House and state without any recourse to proof or due process that something corresponds to a committee report. That is procedurally unacceptable. I think it is grounds enough in this context for us to not support the motion at this time.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I want to give my colleague from Winnipeg--Transcona, a fellow House leader, an opportunity to expand a little on what I think is the crux of the issue. That is the inability of the current CPIC system to provide for penalties when an individual who is convicted of an offence relating to sexual violence, particularly sexual violence directed at children, does not register.

Under the current system we are relying upon the good graces and the efficiency of court officials, the police, judges and prosecutors to ensure that the information is entered into a central computer bank called CPIC. We also know that the CPIC system contains all criminal convictions. It contains parole conditions. It contains the probation orders that are attached to sentences that are handed out.

What is envisioned by the motion, by the provinces and by the police is a stand-alone registry system. Sex offenders would be required to register their changes of address and their conditions of probation. That stand-alone information is what would comprise the preventive nature of the system. We know that stand-alone systems can exist because we have the cumbersome, costly, ineffective, unenforceable long gun registry.

This stand-alone system in my estimation would cost far less and would actually work. It would actually provide police with that type of information. The member is right to key in on that particular area of the motion.

The member is also right to suggest that there was an element of hypocrisy when we last had this issue before us. It begs the question, if a tree fell in the Chamber, would the Liberals hear it?

[Bill Blaikie, NDP, Winnipeg—Transcona, MB]

Mr. Speaker, I will try to get my head around that last statement. The hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough raises a good point.

As he was working on his question, I wrote down stand-alone because that is what we want. We want a stand-alone national sex offender registry. We want the onus not just to be on the court system and the police, et cetera, but to be on the sex offenders themselves to let people know where they are. I am not saying that their pictures could be put on posters around the community or anything like that. But the proper authorities would know that they are in the community and could exercise due diligence with respect to their presence in terms of notifying school boards, teachers or whomever if that is what seems to be appropriate.

What we are looking for is a system which puts some onus on the offenders themselves. That is not what CPIC does. The government is mistaken in constantly maintaining that somehow it does this. It is misleading in the clearest sense of the word.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to once again participate in the debate surrounding the implementation of a national sex offender registry. This is an incredibly sound idea. The concept has been in public discussion for some time and is very much the purpose of the motion.

Ironically the motion has already been before the House. As has been stated, members unanimously supported it, yet here we are again with the same motion because of the disingenuous efforts of the government to support it. What took place was lip service, to use the vernacular, saying that we supported it yet we did nothing.

There is a record of occurrences on other subject matters where that has been the case. I personally brought in a motion pertaining to workplace safety. That motion stemmed from the terrible disaster at the Westray mine in Plymouth, Nova Scotia. Once again it was debated. It went through the entire process of private members' business. The motion was debated and was unanimously supported. It went to committee where we heard from witnesses and it was supported there. Nothing has happened, nothing.

Yet the government, through the solicitor general and other speakers, says it supports it because it already has happened. That simply is false. It has not happened. A separate stand-alone system is what is required. That is how members understand the motion to read.

It truly is deliberate and wilful blindness on the part of the solicitor general and other speakers on the Liberal side to stand and say they support it only because it already exists. It does not exist. That is the fact. Police officers, provincial attorneys general and other people working in the system will verify that the current CPIC system does not allow for a mandatory registry of information pertaining to sex offenders. That is what is needed. That is what is necessary and imperative to protect children in particular.

Mr. Speaker, I will be sharing my time with my colleague and seatmate from Prince George--Peace River.

I personally moved a motion very similar to the motion before the House. Therefore I would be following in the Liberal tradition of hypocrisy and duplicity if I did not support the motion.

The motion before the House is one which the provinces certainly support. Provincial attorneys general have repeatedly called upon the government to enact a national sex offender registry. The Canadian Police Association, the victims' resource centre and citizens generally are looking to the government to show some leadership, to show some political will if that is what it takes, and bring this system about.

That is what happened with the firearms registry. I do not want to mix messages or continually bring this into the debate, but in the past five or six years the government has spent hundreds of millions of dollars trying to register long guns in Canada based upon voluntary participation. It is voluntary only insofar as the coming year and then it will be upon pain of criminal conviction.

The government is prepared to spend hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money, which it has done before. There are ample examples of where it has done this. The cancellation of the EH-101 helicopter program is another example of hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money being spent. The Pearson airport contract cancellation cost hundreds of millions of dollars.

We are talking about setting up a system for far less. That system would impact on crime. It would actually protect and prevent victims under that type of criminal activity.

The CPIC system which is in place now is very good. It has been upgraded. It was near a state of collapse a few years ago because of Liberal neglect and cutbacks in the law enforcement area.

Presently, convicted offenders may be released into a community and change their residence or their appearance; the entire population is aware that sex offenders prey upon those least able to defend themselves. They do so by deceit, by disguise and very much by subterfuge. Those types of nefarious activities are done intentionally, to go undetected.

There is no faith that a sex offender registry will ever work unless there is some necessity that the offender comply upon pain of having conditions breached and going back to court. Bringing back some accountability is what is required. That does not exist under the current system. As I stated before in questions and comments, it is relying upon court records, probation officers, police and those who work in the system to enter that data.

Coupled with all the other information that is found on the Canadian Police Information Centre, it is impossible to sort it out in such a way that communities, police and those in the law enforcement community can access it in such a way that it can be used for prevention.

We know that recidivism is extremely high with sex offenders. In the event of reoccurrence, such as a heinous act of abduction or sexual assault, valuable time is lost in trying to identify the suspect who is oftentimes not known to local police or to the community because of the issue of mobility which is so prevalent.

A national sex offender registry would provide police with an enhanced ability to protect society and carry out this absolutely critical task of enforcing a safe and orderly society. It would give police better access to information about the specific whereabouts of offenders and about all convictions of a sexual nature that have been registered with the courts.

Sadly not all offences make it into the CPIC system, and I experienced this myself as a crown attorney. When the offence has occurred in British Columbia, there may be a delay in entering the information in the system if the individual is before the courts in Nova Scotia or Newfoundland.

The full picture is not before the courts. If a person has a previous offence and has shown a previous proclivity toward sexual aggression, that necessary information may not be available. That critical missing piece of the puzzle may result in an entirely different outcome at trial or perhaps more important at the sentencing stage if a conviction is returned.

A national system would allow the police much greater access to information and a much greater ability to protect. It is simply a good idea that would work. It requires investment of resources. Again, we have seen the government invest in all sorts of much less important areas of public expenditure.

The United States has state registries which are currently up and operating. The province of Ontario, as alluded to by others, is in the process of enforcing this type of system.

That technology is now available. It should be a priority. It should be a system that we are prepared to use. We have had upgrades to CPIC that include flagging pardoned records of sex offenders. We have a system that will hopefully monitor those who are on probation and who are on conditions of parole. Yet a national sex offender registry set up in a comprehensive national computer system and made available to police is an absolute necessity if we are to improve the way in which we deliver services now and monitor those in the community who have already been convicted of a sexual offence.

It could also be tailored to replace and basically adopt the computer infrastructure for the long gun registry which has been a complete waste of money.

Ontario has offered to try to apply its system to the current federal system in hopes of encouraging the federal government to adopt this.

There are two questions; one is of process. The government has tried to simply by a wink and a nod put this issue to one side by saying it has already done it. It has not done it. It comes back to the main issue. Why would the government not be prepared to support and act on the recommendation in this motion?

I want to conclude my remarks by saying that we have an opportunity here to also restore a bit of faith, if the government were to actually support the system and act on it. We must treat these occasions with the greatest of seriousness. Bringing in a national sex offender registry would be good in and of itself.

Before turning over the floor to my very able seatmate and colleague, I would like to move an amendment to the Alliance supply day motion, seconded by my colleague from Prince George Peace River. The amendment would essentially add to the wording in the first paragraph after the word “a” the following: “separate and stand-alone” sex offender registry.

I realize under the new rules there has to be agreement for this amendment to be inserted. I would suggest, by virtue of the comments we have heard from the Alliance members today, that they would not object to the insertion of the words separate and stand-alone, categorizing this from what the government has tried to lead people to believe; that we already have a system under CPIC that qualifies as a national sex offender registry.

[The Deputy Speaker]

I would hope and believe the hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough would be somewhat sympathetic to the Chair's dilemma in terms of consent from the mover of the supply motion, being the member for Langley--Abbotsford. If he indicates to the Chair that in fact he has his consent, it would be helpful. Otherwise, if the amendment is consistent with the text received earlier, I am prepared to say that the amendment appears in order. Procedurally, we would need the consent of the mover of the original motion, the hon. member for Langley--Abbotsford.

I do not know whether the hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough has anything to add.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Mr. Speaker, I would only add that we have made efforts to contact the mover of the motion. I of course had to remain here in the Chamber so as not to miss my spot in the rotation. Perhaps we could have some indication from a member of the Alliance who is in the Chamber if that consent might be forthcoming.

[The Deputy Speaker]

Again, notwithstanding the goodwill that might possibly exist from other colleagues of the official opposition, the Chair is still held to the procedural and correct way to do this. The only way the Chair can do it is with the consent of the mover, being the hon. member for Langley--Abbotsford.

I might suggest to the hon. member for Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough that the Chair will hold the amendment in abeyance. At any time today during the debate and prior to the question being moved at a later hour, he or a colleague might come back to the House and seek the floor by way of a point of order. Then we can proceed with the matter.

We will now proceed to questions and comments for the hon. member.

[Loyola Hearn, Progressive Conservative, St. John's West, NL]

Mr. Speaker, I listened with interest to my colleague's remarks. He talked about the fact that this was not new, that it had been here before and that it was an issue that seemingly everyone supported.

Along those lines, I would like him to answer his own question, which is why the government has not moved on this. Does it not care? Are the ministers in charge are so incompetent that they cannot put the necessary piece of legislation together? Are they perhaps afraid of turning off some of the provinces? I think everyone in the country would like to see this issued settled and settled quickly. I would appreciate his comments.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I suggest that it is probably a combination of a number of factors that might be characterized as arrogance and incompetence. I certainly hope it is not an intentional move on the part of the government to avoid bringing in this system. Even the blackest heart of any individual would be quick to acknowledge that the long term implications of being abused, sexually or otherwise, as a child have such incredibly horrible consequences and lifelong effects on an individual.

More directly to the member from St. John's, in my opinion the government has made a habit of tending to denigrate and put to one side motions that are brought forward on the part of the opposition. This is done for the most partisan and small reasons that I can imagine. This is done to garner as much credit to itself and to try to belittle and demean the opposition.

I suggest that the motion was put forward in its original form with the best intent; that is to simply encourage and call upon the government to bring in a system that would prevent these horrific crimes. It actually defies the imagination why the government would not support this motion. It supported it the first time. Surely the problem of sexual child abuse has not been eradicated in the country between the last time it was before us and today's date.

I have heard nothing thus far from the solicitor general or any member of the government that would possibly justify or give any credence to their failure to support this motion today. Yet that I am afraid is the sad spectacle that we will be treated to later in the day when the government stands up and votes against the implementation of a national sex offender registry that would help protect children in the country today.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Madam Speaker, I believe the member is familiar with the statements of RCMP Commissioner Zaccardelli on May 9, 2001. He said that there were elements of information on CPIC of a sex offender registry and that the pieces of the information on CPIC were rudimentary.

We have heard the solicitor general say in the House that we have a sex offender registry. Yet we have the contradictory statements from the commissioner simply saying that there are elements of it, and they are rudimentary.

I have not heard the commissioner change his mind in a committee hearing or otherwise. Maybe the member has heard whether the RCMP commissioner has changed his mind about this.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I know my colleague is intimately familiar with the workings of the justice system.

In short order, I have heard nothing from the commissioner who similarly has spent his life's work enforcing the law. He is an individual who surely has a greater knowledge of the current CPIC system than, I dare say, the solicitor general. As he has stated, the current system has elements of providing information. It records convictions. It does not allow for a system that records changes of address, changes of appearance, known associates, known proclivities or tendencies toward violence or sexual violence.

The stand-alone elements of a sex offender system are what need to be highlighted in this debate and what have to be presented to the government. The half-truths, veiled allusions and the self-congratulatory horn blowing type of approach that the solicitor general took here today does nothing to bring about a national sex offender registry.

The contradiction is there. The commissioner of the RCMP is in a far better position to assess the current system.

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I thank my hon. colleague from Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough for splitting his time with me and giving me an opportunity to speak to the opposition motion.

One thing that should be of concern not only to parliamentarians but obviously to Canadians from coast to coast is why we are having this debate again at all. In preparing my remarks today I took a look at a speech that I gave in the House about a year ago on a very similar motion. I began that day by stating:

I wish I could say that it is a pleasure for me to participate in a debate this afternoon calling for the establishment of a national sex offender registry but to be honest it is not.

If I was frustrated then on behalf of my constituents, the House can imagine how frustrated I am today. I could read this entire speech that I gave a year ago verbatim and nothing has changed except that another year has gone by, sadly with more victims out in the real world.

The relevant part of the motion put forward by the Canadian Alliance states:

That, since the government has failed to give effect to the motion adopted by this House on March 13, 2001, calling for the establishment of a sex offender registry by January 30, 2002, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights be instructed to prepare and bring in a bill reflecting the spirit and intent of that motion;--

This is an important motion for all Canadians. One of the interesting things about the motion is that it would instruct the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to do what it should be doing all along in this parliament, that is, non-partisan work for the betterment of society. This is quite a concept: that it could be seized by a similar motion of a year ago, which was unanimously supported by the Chamber, and do that worthwhile work.

We have heard my colleague from Pictou--Antigonish--Guysborough put forward a proposed amendment. We are waiting to hear back from the Canadian Alliance on that. Why is that amendment so critical? In a question posed to my colleague by the member for Provencher, the reply stated that CPIC does not do the job. There must be a recognition by members from all parties, in a non-partisan way, that CPIC does not do the job for the variety of reasons that my colleague laid out.

If we were to pass this motion which instructs the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights to undertake the drafting of a bill, the instructions to the committee should be to come up with something that is separate and stand alone. That way the Liberal government could not simply, with the sleight of hand that it has been using for the last few years, particularly in the last year, fiddle with CPIC and hope that it would be able to have a national sex offender registry that would somehow do the job.

Yesterday we heard from the government on Bill C-7. There was a Senate amendment which sent Bill C-7, the new youth justice bill, back to this Chamber. The government, in its infinite wisdom, decided to bring in time allocation. The argument it used was that it had heard enough about the need to reform the Young Offenders Act, there were enough studies done, and it had enough consensus across the nation from political parties that something had to happen. Even though the provinces and most opposition parties, for a variety of reasons, believe that it was a deeply flawed bill, the government brought in time allocation and rammed it through the House in its flawed state.

This is indicative of what the government does time and time again. The next day we are debating the need for a national sex offender registry. Where is the same concern by the government? We have another wasted year with nothing happening despite a motion passed unanimously a year ago.

A number of colleagues in the House have drawn a comparison, as we did a year ago, between the supposed need for a national firearms registry and the real need for a national sex offender registry. There is quite a difference and a number of my colleagues have laid out the government's misplaced priorities when it comes to the safety of the most vulnerable members of our society.

The government thinks that the priority of Canadians is to register the hunting rifles and bird guns of law abiding citizens and somehow that will make our society a safer place, in deference to bringing forward what all parliamentarians and the vast majority of Canadians want: a national sex offender registry. These are misplaced priorities. A number of colleagues have talked about the horrendous cost to set up this national firearms registry, and for what?

I would like to bring to light and read from a couple of newspaper articles from northern British Columbia. I did a search, going back to last year when we debated the last motion, to see what was said in northern B.C. from where I am proud to be.

The day after the motion passed in this Chamber, an article on March 14, 2001, in the Prince Rupert Daily News stated:

Federal Liberals supported a Canadian Alliance motion Tuesday to create a sex offender registry but say they'll expand an existing police database rather than create a costly new system. The vote to create a registry to keep track of released convicts was unanimous, at 255-0. The solicitor general explained that Liberals supported the motion because the existing Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) fits the bill.

It received some widespread support and was reported all over the country, even in northern British Columbia. It was seen as a positive step forward because there was unanimous support for the motion.

Two days after we passed the motion, the following article appeared on March 15, 2001, in the Prince George Citizen , a newspaper in my riding of Prince George--Peace River:

The family of a 13 year old Prince George girl who was molested by her employer said a newly approved national sex offender registry could prevent sexual assaults.

A registry that requires convicted offenders to report their whereabouts to police and other authorities might have prevented the offence last January, said the girl's stepfather. “These pedophiles and molesters need to be kept track of”, said the man, whose name can't be disclosed in order to protect the victim's identity.

Peter Paul Joseph, 46, was convicted this month of sexually assaulting his children's babysitter and was handed a 15 month conditional sentence.

“Had the registry been in place before the offence, police would have been able to keep a close eye on Joseph, who had a prior conviction for sexual assault in 1996”, the victim's stepfather said.

He said he wants the law to go further, requiring authorities to alert the public about convicted sex offenders living in a particular area. The Liberal government voted this week to support the Canadian Alliance's motion for a national registry.

It goes on to talk about the local RCMP support for that motion.

The point that I am making is that this is a motion, an issue, with widespread support outside of this Chamber. There was unanimous support in the Chamber and yet the government is still dragging its heels in bringing forward an actual implementation.

I cannot speak loudly enough or long enough of my support for the motion on behalf of the most vulnerable citizens of Prince George--Peace River. We must do something to bring this forward. The women and children who are the most vulnerable in our society must be protected. Now is the time to do it. I urge members from all parties to support the motion.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. As the Chair would know, I tabled an amendment that would add the words separate and stand-alone. I believe the amendment would be found in order but under the new standing orders it is requisite that the mover of the motion indicate his or her agreement.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Madam Speaker, I agree that under Standing Order 85 that is a requisite. We believe that we should have a separate and stand-alone system. We concur with the amendment.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

moved:

That the motion be amended by inserting, after the first occurrence of the word “a”, the following:

“separate and stand alone”

[The Acting Speaker (Ms. Bakopanos)]

The amendment is in order.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I commend my friend and colleague for his remarks and the work that he has done in this area, and all members of the House who have supported and spoken very passionately on the issue. What could possibly be more fundamental than protecting children?

I know there are members of the House, including my colleague from Surrey North, who have, within their own family circle, been victims of horrible crimes that have robbed families of their loved ones. In instances involving sexual offences, the long term implications and effects on a child are immeasurable in their harm.

It comes down to the issue that my friend honed in on, and that is one of priorities. What could be of greater priority than to bring about a system such as this? He alluded to the nonsensical and completely unjustified amount of money that has been put into registering shotguns and focusing in on rural Canada more than any other part of this country, telling individuals that they can no longer keep a long gun that might have been a family heirloom or a shotgun that is used for pest control or hunting, a legitimate exercise that Canadians have partaken in for over a century.

The Liberal government's priority is to register long guns that are not the weapon of choice rather than to register sex offenders who are out there wreaking havoc in young people's lives. Is there any choice, in terms of priorities, as to where the money and the effort should be put? Canadians deserve better than that. Would my hon. colleague care to elaborate on that point?

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Madam Speaker, I do not think so: There is no greater need out there than the need to protect those who cannot protect themselves, the most vulnerable members of our society.

I was just handed an excerpt from today's Prince George Citizen . The headline reads “Girls Given Coins Before Assault”. Two very young girls were kidnapped, taken to a gravel pit and sexually assaulted. It states:

Benjamin Corey Hart, 21, faces two counts of sexual assault and two counts of kidnapping in connection with the Jan. 4, 2001 attacks. Following the assaults, the seven-year-old girl pointed out to police where the attacks occurred. Both girls told investigators where they believed they had tossed the coins they were given. On the morning of the assaults, the girls, who lived across the street from each other, had been tobogganing outside their homes, when a man drove by a number of times, asking about an egg or chicken farm in the area, the Crown alleged. The man then pushed the girls into the vehicle and drove to a gravel pit on Groveburn Road, about 10 kilometres away, where he sexually assaulted them before returning them to their neighbourhood.

When Benjamin Hart is released, as he undoubtedly will be sometime, will he be in a national sex offender registry to protect other small girls across this nation? Will we protect them or will it happen again and again?

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Madam Speaker, the last time we had this debate in the House I went back to my riding of Etobicoke North and spoke with police officials at division 23, the main police office in my riding. It was during the last election campaign. The police in my riding are familiar with this type of problem because they had the Peter Whitmore case.

Because the issue was being debated in the House I asked the police at division 23 how bad CPIC was in terms of a sex offender registry and what kind of priority they would attach to it. They told me they would rather see modifications to CPIC than some new grandiose scheme. They said it was not the biggest priority facing them. They said offenders were being registered on CPIC and it was working quite adequately.

We have been hearing comments across the floor that this should be a top drawer issue. Opposition members say the system should be scrubbed and a new system built. They say this is a consensus among police authorities and provinces. I am puzzled by that. In my riding we have had a lot of crime and murders in the last year, yet this is not a priority. Where are the members hearing this?

[Jay Hill, Canadian Alliance, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Madam Speaker, with all due respect, the hon. member is spreading misconceptions about the position of the opposition parties. No one is saying to scrap the present CPIC system. I have not heard that once.

The hon. member has the audacity to stand in this place, refer to a conversation he may or may not have had with one police officer, and cite it as reason to somehow fix CPIC so it can do the job. He ended his intervention by asking where we are getting our support. How about the 30,000 front line members of the Canadian Police Association who support a national sex offender registry? They more than anyone realize the problems inherent in the CPIC system.

[Vic Toews, Canadian Alliance, Provencher, MB]

Madam Speaker, I will be splitting my time with the hon. member for Surrey North.

The hon. member for Winnipeg--Transcona questioned the procedural acceptability of the motion with respect to the mechanism to carry the bill through the House. The procedure is almost an exact rewrite of Standing Order 68(4). It had to be repeated in the Alliance motion because Standing Order 68(4) establishes a mechanism for government and private members' motions. Since we are dealing with a supply motion the procedure had to be included in our motion. That is why it is procedurally acceptable. It is the same procedure used last spring in adopting the impaired driving bills. In any event it is a technical issue.

One of the most critical issues facing parliamentarians today is that our children continue to be at risk of sexual exploitation by adult predators. It has become increasingly clear that the government can no longer afford to turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed every day in Canada against innocent young victims.

We have no way of preventing all these crimes. However we must do everything in our power to stop those who would prey on children and to penalize them if they commit these crimes. It is our duty as parliamentarians and members of the chief law-making body in Canada to do everything we can to root these offenders out of our communities and ensure they are never given a second chance to abuse a child. We cannot do everything but we can do something. Enacting a national sex offender registry is one thing that is entirely within our power.

As members know, last March the Canadian Alliance took a stand on the issue in the House of Commons. We asked members to vote in favour of implementing a national sex offender registry. Everyone including government members voted for our motion. At the time everyone agreed it was necessary to protect children from pedophiles, yet absolutely nothing has been done to protect our children from people who believe they are justified in ruining young lives.

Although everyone in the House and elsewhere knows it is not accurate, we have heard the solicitor general repeating the mantra that Canada already has a sex offender registry. He says it can be found within the Canadian Police Information Centre or CPIC. This is erroneous information. However he will no doubt continue repeating the mantra, as will other members of the Liberal Party, in an attempt to assure Canadians something is being done. I think he believes if it is repeated enough Canadians will start to believe him.

The Liberal government refuses to incorporate the changes we have asked for because they might be too difficult or expensive to administer. I do not understand how the minister and members of the government can continue to ignore the compelling and alarming evidence of the immediate need to implement the changes.

Data indicate that a rapid response during an investigation of child abduction for sexual purposes is absolutely critical. Studies indicate that of the victims who are murdered, 44% are dead within an hour of the abduction, 74% are dead within three hours, and 91% are dead within 24 hours. There is a compelling need to have information and access it quickly. The national sex offender registry would give police authorities that information.

The hon. member indicated CPIC already has this information. It does not. There is no requirement for sex offenders to register when they change address. If sex offenders have completed a period of incarceration and any probation or parole that might follow it, there is no legal onus on them to register the change so police authorities know where they might be.

A quick, complete and searchable sex offender registry such as we are proposing would assist police by identifying all registered sex offenders living in a geographic area, something the current CPIC does not do. In excess of 75% of the time an offender lives within a two kilometre radius of where the incident occurs.

As I have said many times, the registry we are proposing could incorporate elements of the CPIC system. Why the system has not been updated after so much time is totally mystifying.

Not only have the provinces demanded a national registry from the government, out of desperation some provincial governments have acted. The Ontario government should be commended for proceeding where the federal government has failed to act.

Tired of waiting for a federal government that says all the right things but does not do the right things, the Ontario government has implemented its own provincial registry through Christopher's law, legislation it named after a young victim who was brutally raped and murdered by a convicted pedophile on federal statutory release. The provincial government has had to clean up the mess because the federal government will not act in a responsible fashion to enact the appropriate laws.

In 1993, following the inquest into the death of 11 year old Christopher Stephenson, the coroner's jury recommended the federal government create a national registry for convicted, dangerous, high risk sexual offenders and require each such offender to register with police in the jurisdiction where they reside or will reside. That was almost a decade ago. Because nothing was done by the federal government with respect to the coroner's recommendation, the government of Ontario had to act.

It is not only members of provincial governments who support the registry. Along with provincial premiers, justice ministers and solicitors general, the RCMP commissioner has said we need it.

The Liberal member opposite told the hon. member from Prince George he had spoken to a police officer who thought everything was all right. Last March the Canadian Police Association, which consists of 30,000 police officers from across Canada, issued a press release supporting our initiative for a national sex offender registry. The member may have had a conversation with one police officer but 30,000 officers in the CPA said they supported a national sex offender registry.

In a 2001 policy resolution paper the Canadian Police Association clearly stated:

Despite persistent government claims to the contrary, the Canadian Police Information Centre (CPIC) does not provide police agencies with adequate information and notification concerning the release or arrival of sex offenders into their communities.

Noting that a federal-provincial-territorial working group reported on the issue in 1998, the CPA recommended the report be followed.

The commissioner of the RCMP has said that we have elements of a sex offender registry but that we do not have an effective sex offender registry. He stated in committee that we need legislation, money and manpower or personnel to do it.

It can be done. The Americans have done it under the umbrella of federal legislation. I believe 46 states have now adopted it. The minister's excuses are wearing thin. The government's excuses are wearing thin. I urge members to support the motion.

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, I am pleased to rise today to speak to my party's supply motion.

The main thrust of the motion reads:

That, since the government has failed to give effect to the motion adopted by this House on March 13, 2001, calling for the establishment of a sex offender registry by January 30, 2002, the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights be instructed to prepare and bring in a bill reflecting the spirit and intent of that motion;

That the Committee shall make its report to the House no later than June 1, 2002;

It is incomprehensible to me why the Liberal government would drag its feet in this most crucial area of public safety: protection from sexual predators for all Canadians, particularly from those who prey on our children.

I wish I had a dollar, and make that a U.S. dollar, for every time the solicitor general has said that the government's number one priority is public safety. That is beginning to wear thin with Canadians.

I wish I had a dollar for every time the solicitor general has said that our current CPIC is adequate despite evidence from experts that it is not. The truth of the matter is that CPIC is just not up to the job, even with the $2 million upgrade that the solicitor general likes to tout so much. It is clear that he puts a lot of stock in half measures when it comes to the protection of Canadians from sexual predators.

The government's own research shows that 50% of child molesters reoffend in 10 to 30 years after serving their sentence. This is not a very comforting figure considering that the CPIC system, which has been operational since 1972, only offers police four searchable criteria when looking for possible reoffenders. Those criteria are name, address, offence and age. This does not give police a whole lot to go on, especially when we consider the problems associated with keeping addresses up to date. There are no federal laws setting out requirements for offenders to provide current addresses. There is no enabling legislation.

Last fall the provincial justice ministers said that the CPIC upgrade was not up to the task. They are not alone in the call for something better. The Canadian Police Association, which represents 30,000 front line officers, said that CPIC just did not cut it.

A variety of victims' groups are calling for a more viable search tool that will include physical characteristics and photographs, one that will provide jurisdictional and radius searches. Again, CPIC, to my understanding, is just not up to this kind of task. This of course is why it is so disturbing that the government has not implemented a national sex offender registry that will meet these requirement.

That was the intent of the motion of the Canadian Alliance back in March of last year. I think it is fair to say that the solicitor general's solution to simply add addresses to CPIC does not a sex offender registry make.

In the absence of any federal initiative, individual provinces are well on the way to creating their own sex offender registries. To them there is an obvious need to identify these potentially dangerous criminals when they move into our communities long after their sentences have been served.

Ontario has its own sex offender registry up and running. It has offered that system to the federal government as a model at no cost. Ontario's registry went into effect in April 2001 and already has 5,000 names on it. Over 90% of offenders are complying with the provincial legislation that compels them to report annually.

Other provinces are beginning to follow Ontario's lead. My home province of British Columbia has enacted legislation required to established one there. Alberta, Saskatchewan, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia are all considering plans for their own registries. Unfortunately, without federal participation, the very real possibility exists for these systems to lack effectiveness if they cannot communicate with each other.

Similarly, if a sex offender moves from one province to another without a national system there is little the federal government can do to track them under the present circumstances.

The driving force behind the Ontario registry was the family of Christopher Stephenson, who was murdered by a convicted sexual offender. The enabling legislation is actually called Christopher's law. It took the death of a child to create the Ontario registry. How many more needless deaths and damaged lives do there have to be before the federal government takes action?

The primary issue here is that Canadian police agencies need a quick, complete, searchable database in order to help prevent deaths and serious sexual offences.

No system will be 100% effective but what we have now has holes in it that are big enough to drive a truck through.

If the federal government were to implement a national version of the Ontario system, police could search known sexual offenders when an abduction or sex related crime occurs. The search would be conducted based on seven different criteria. If the crime were committed by a previously known sexual offender, the likelihood of identifying that offender would be far greater than using the current CPIC system.

There is little doubt in my mind that Ontario's example should be followed nationally. The mission statement of the Ontario registry reads:

--to enhance public safety by providing law enforcement agencies with a modern, reliable and effective electronic tool and support services to track sex offenders in our communities and to improve the investigation of crimes of a sexual nature.

In October 1998, according to the Alberta justice minister, the former federal justice minister agreed to a national registry. During the 2000 federal election, the Liberal candidate in Surrey Central, just to the south of my riding, campaigned on the creation of a national sex offender registry with the blessing of the Prime Minister. This was obviously nothing more than typical Liberal lip service for votes in regard to a very serious problem.

I urge the government to follow the example of Ontario and put the safety of Canadians ahead of all else. I know it is difficult for the Liberals to acknowledge anything done by the Ontario government, but this is not an issue with which to play petty politics. This is about public safety so why not take this innovative system and implement it on a national basis before we lose any more innocents to sexual predators?

I urge all my colleagues to support the motion.

[Randy White, Canadian Alliance, Langley—Abbotsford, BC]

Madam Speaker, I would like to ask my colleague a couple of things about the national sex offender registry. Could he shed some light on what the reluctance is across the way?

I strongly suspect the government will not implement a national sex offender registry because it is concerned about establishing legislation that would mandate sex offenders to report their whereabouts, any changes in their telephone numbers, addresses and so on. I really think the government believes this is an infringement on a sex offender's life.

Does my colleague think that is entirely possible or probable, and perhaps where he would see the rights of a sex offender versus the rights of victims and innocent people in this country?

[Chuck Cadman, Canadian Alliance, Surrey North, BC]

Madam Speaker, where do I see the rights of the victim as opposed to the rights of the criminals, specifically the rights of a sex offender? I think many people in the country would say that somebody who preys on children should have no rights, but of course we understand that everybody is guaranteed rights under our charter.

However, whose rights should supersede in cases like this? I would suggest that virtually all Canadians would say that the rights of the victim, the rights of the children, the rights of the victims of sexual assault should supersede any rights that a criminal has to privacy.

I do believe one of the reasons the government is reluctant to implement this is that it is concerned about infringing on the rights of these people, especially after they have completed their sentences. It certainly has popped up before in other cases.

I think there is a philosophy at work here, and I would cite one case. A 20 year old person in Victoria, British Columbia was just convicted of a very serious assault. However, we could not identify him because he had been convicted as a young offender for taking part in a brutal murder in Prince Rupert along with five other young offenders. Even though a newspaper article wanted to describe the nature of this person and that he had been previously involved in serious violent activities, it could not name him because of his previous activity as a young offender. The newspaper could not name him in a newspaper article to say that he had been involved in a very serious violent offence and that he had been convicted again as an adult.

We are dealing with some serious issues over protecting identification. I think this is one of the problems the government is having about enacting this legislation. It does not want to go anywhere close to violating any perceived right that sex offenders may have.

[Peter MacKay, Progressive Conservative, Pictou—Antigonish—Guysborough, NS]

Madam Speaker, I want to take this issue a little further. I think we are now getting into more substance around the necessity for a national sex offender registry.

We have seen through the Department of Justice on numerous occasions what I would call charter constipation, a fear that if by some means any legislation might in some way be conceived or contrived to infringe upon an individual's rights we should try to stay away from it.

We are mandated and in fact expected to bring forward legislation that will respect individual's rights but also protect people. It becomes a matter of proportionality. There are numerous legal maxims and tests that apply when cases come before the court and there are these inevitable competing interests.

The hon. member has touched on the importance of protecting those in society who, in many instances, cannot protect themselves or are preyed upon by sexual offenders. By virtue of an individual having displayed tendencies of sexual aggression toward children and having been convicted through due process in a court of law, the hon. member is right to suggest that those rights that attach to other citizens are to some degree forfeited or the state then has a right to curtail that person's rights of movement, rights of access and rights of interaction. That is what parole conditions are about.

A person who has been convicted of murder is under parole conditions for life. Similarly, sex offenders upon release, in many cases, are given certain restrictions about where they can go, whether they can attend schoolyards or places where children are found. Therefore, it is that balance and that proportionality.

Is it not incumbent upon the government to put those rights of children ahead of others?